What do you think about venezuelan "revolution" and the "PT"

[Pere Jordi]

people have his own opinion about the "revolutionary" process in Venezuela and Brazil...

what do you think about this "experiences" ??

as my father teach me... you first! :D

[Panamarisen]

In general, of course, a revolutionary process has to do with the power of the people, those who ARE the State in itself. The average "State" shouldn´t ever try to "teach" the people what to do, because they ARE the State, the real State.
Chavez and Lula know very well it´s up to them, nowdays, the creation of a much better situation for the people in their countries.
Just hope they always do it the right way...!

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[Pere Jordi]

I read your post, and i have a question for you:

How can you recognize and REVOLUTIONARY GOVERNMENT?

How can you differenciate and "impostor" and a true revolutionary leader? (well, when we talk about a "leader" we must dude about his revolutionary quality hehhe)

I'll wait your answer and comments!


Spanish Version : (european, here you can learn spanish heheh)

Leí tu mensaje y te tengo unas preguntas:

¿Cómo puedes tú reconocer un GOBIERNO REVOLUCIONARIO?
¿Cómo diferenciarías a un IMPOSTOR de un verdadero líder revolucionario? (bueno, cuando hablamos de LIDER ya deberiamos dudar de su cualidad revolucionaria jejej)

Espero tu respuesta y comentarios!!

[Panamarisen]

My opinion is that Subcomandante Marcos is the best example today of a true Revolutionary leader, and that he could achieve a true Revolutionary Government.

He is a good example of a "leader" because he only cares for the people (and I know this may sound as ingenousness for those who doesn´t know about him). He is such a leader that he just doesn´t want to be it, and that´s the reason for him wearing a black handkerchief all over his face, so nobody will recognize him.
Marcos is the person to install a Revolutionary Government wherever he thinks he should: his idea is to leave aside the guns as soon as the people reach their freedom and enjoy their citizenship with justice...!

I´m not saying Lula or Chavez could or should behave like him, but at least they MUST answer to the people´s needs. That´s the least to expect from them.

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[Pere Jordi]

well, i say to you: marcos wasn't the center of this discussion, but i just can say to you another thing.

Marcos is an revolutionary or a Romantic? can you diferenciate this two words? What is the actual situation of his mediatic "guerrilla"?? they refuse still fighting, his objetives are just the indigenist reinvindications, what we must thing about this? Revolution is only based in indigenist reinvindications?

i don't think so.

The indigenist reinvindication must be integrated in the "Global" revolutionary Program.

well, i hope the discussion can be about the venezuelan and brazilian "leaders", that's why i open this Post :D

i hope you can understand me, comrade!

bye bye

[Panamarisen]

Comrade PJ, I know Marcos is not the idea of this post. I just put him as an example of a Revolutionary "leader", an example for leftist Governments of how to behave and help the people you care for.
The way Marcos is carrying on the situation -for instance, making millions of people know and understand Mexican natives, something that would be called nonsense just a few ears ago- means that he knows very well how to deal with it, even tho there isn´t yet an open war of guerrillas (yet!).
Once again I tell you that my opinion is that Chavez and Lula should be as honest leaders as Subcomandante Marcos is, and carry the people to a situation of welfare, justice and liberty for all (even if this may look as aromantic or idealistic idea). ;)

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[Pere Jordi]

I believe in the power of organization, not in the power of some "comrades"... why? what happens if somebody someday kill the "cabecilla", the leader of this revolutionary movement?

maybe the cause continues, but just take a look to another experiences... sendero Luminoso, the Sandinists, etc etc.

we must lear about experience, comrade. we can not fail in the same thing again and again.

the marcos's guerrilla don't bring to us the final solution to our problems... they dont include proletarian reinvindications... he's just a indigenist, NOT a revolutionary!!! can we see the DIFERENCE?

i can support his fight, dont dude about that, i think indigena situation in mexico is terrible, but i am a marxist, not an indigenist. I include the indigenist reinvindications in the General revolutionary PROGRAM, THAT's the way...

well, i hope you are understand me. sorry if i can not exprese my self better, english is not my maternal language...

bye bye

[redjordi]

I think that neither Lula nor Chavez are revolutionary Marxists. But neither of them has claimed to be Marxists. The point however is that support for both of them represent the people's rejection of openly capitalist policies.

The programme of Chavez is not socialist, but rather nationalist and to a certain extent anti-imperialist. The point is that capitalism in Venezuela and internationally cannot allow even this limited programme to be carried out.

That is why the masses are coming out on the streets to support Chavez against counter-revolution.

The workers in Venezuela need to set up their own organisations, committees in the working class neighbourhoods, factories and barracks in order to fight against counter-revolution and push the revolutionary movement forward, further than Cahvez's limitations. A direct challenge of capitalism is the only way forward.

More info on Venezuela at:

http://www.marxist.com/Latinam/venezuela_coup.html

As for Lula in Brazil he also reflects the aspirations of the masses of the workers and poor against capitalism. However his programme is not a revolutionary Marxist programme. Once he comes into power he will be under the pressure of capital and also under the pressure of the workers. If he does not break with his limited programme of reforms he will betray the expectations the mass of workers have put on him. The crisis of Brazilian capitalism will leave the workers with no other option but to struggle. In that process the PT will be split into left and right wing and workers will learn through their own experience that only a revolutionary alternative can solve their most urgent needs.

More on this at:

http://www.marxist.com/Latinam/brazilian_e...ns_2002(1).html (http://www.marxist.com/Latinam/brazilian_elections_2002(1).html)

y en espanol: http://www.elmilitante.org/desde101002/ele...ec_brasil1V.htm (http://www.elmilitante.org/desde101002/elec_brasil1V.htm)

un saludo revolucionario Pere Jordi

redjordi

[Pere Jordi]

Salut!
thank you very much, redjordi!! (i think you are from.. Catalunya?)

well, you have posted a good message.

I know they dont claimed to be marxist, but people brong to them (erroneously i think) his hopeless...

as you said, they have a very limited program. but it's not the only mistake... i think the parlamentarist way isn't the adequate in latin america... as you know, we have the experience of social-democratics in Chile (Allende), we have the experience of guerrillas (sendero luminoso, sandinistas), and people NEED to learn with his own experiences, but smart people learn with the esperiences of another peoples with similar situation.

i am not trying to be lineal, but i think all this is like fashion (a moda), and i think they will fail in his "revolutionaries" precess...

just look the "comrades" of Lula in Brazil, look what chavez do in venezuela and you can have any idea about what they represent to his people...

they are there because the "traditional" parties are so bad, but they dont have the correct answer to the peoples problems...

well, i hope i exprese my self better at this time heheh

bye bye..

fins aviat!

[peaccenicked]

I liked that post too. It hit the nail on the head.

[Pere Jordi]

heheh i think no head can be considerated un-hitable with our nails heheh

i try to have a discussion about this "revolutionary" guys... i hope you are interested in participate here :D

[Guardia Bolivariano]

I really enjoy how people just can stand the fact tha the REVOLUTINARY goverment of president Hugo Chavez is still here and stronger than ever! Like the song says "Chavez make's them crazy!"

[Pere Jordi]

yeahh chavez blah blah blah

much blah but nothing about socialist construction!!!!

what is his last revolutionary act?? alliance with the capitalists to obtein estability?? heheh

just remember chvez's words: we'll unite with every sectors... including the empresarial

what's that??? revolution??? hehehe i dont think so, man...

you are wrong, guardia, you are the suporter of a joker, who thing about himself: "I am communist..." but, in reality, do nothing... N-O-T-H-I-N-G. Is this clear???

Revolutionary Venezuela, WAKE UP!!!!

down with the diletantist!!!

[Guardia Bolivariano]

I see you have an Issue with Chavez my friend.Well el comandante is here to stay so suck It up!!!

[Pere Jordi]

you said i have an "Issue" with you idol Chavez heheh

i dont think so.

as you can see in the TITLE; i ask about the OPINION about the "revolutionary" process in venezuela and Brazil.

Well, I can understand you position, but that is in favour of my initial position, venezuelan people thing Chavez is the liberator, but i thing that's wrong.

You are blinded, Guardia, because you can't (or you don't WANT) see the reality.

You can defend you "leader" if you want, but DONT SAY chavez is an revolutionary, because he isn't.

If you want, you can say "Chavez is popular", "Chavez is good" or, why not, "Chavez is our God", but you dont have reason if you say "Chavez is a consequent marxist or a REAL marxist or revolutionary".

just thing about it...

bye bye

[Guardia Bolivariano]

My english isn't perfect but I never say:

"you are blinded"
"you said I have an "Issue"with you idol"
"but DON'T SAY Chavez is an revolutionary"
"just thing about It"
"venezuelan people thing"
"but i thing it's wrong"

Now what "THING" are you talking about?

"If you want, you can say "Chavez is popular", "Chavez is good" or, why not, "Chavez is our God", but you dont have reason if you say "Chavez is a consequent marxist or a REAL marxist or revolutionary"."

About that I would never say such a thing only you can come up with such a load of bullshit.

And for some reason the majority of the venezuelan people like Chavez well don't you think It's because he's doing something right or maybe all of the people are blind??

LEARN TO WRITE!!!!!

BYE BYE NOW!
CHEERS!



(Edited by Guardia Bolivariano at 9:45 pm on Nov. 1, 2002)

[Pere Jordi]

what can i I answer you??

the majority people in germany supports (in '30) Hitler...

people can be wrong...

but you are really blinded... you can not see the reality because you DONT WANT.

maybe i dont use a perfect english, but THIS IS NOT IN DISCUSSION. here arent a LANGUAGE Competition.

I am thinking i am losing my time with you, because you dont response nothing with value... blah blah blah..
but nothing about you REVOLUTIONARY PROGRAM. N-O-T-H-I-N-G

think, thing, wherever, people know what i am trying to say...

i am sayng bullshit? maybe, but you dont have any response, because you aren't marxist. I want a marxist response, not a supporter answer...

you said LEARN TO WRITE, heheh you are desperated?? somebody can aswer you.. LEARN TO THINK!!

bye

VENEZUELA DONT NEED FAKES, POPULIST AND DEMAGOGIC LEADERS.

VENEZUELA NEED A REAL REVOLUTIONARY PARTY BASED IN MARXISM, NOT IN POPULISM.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Well I must say you started with Chavez and now you're talking about Hitler yeah that has a lot to do with Chavez yeah SURE DREAM ON.Ok so maybe this isn't a language competition but for a man your age you should try to write a little better so the younger people can understand the lies you write.Please do It for the kids.Well I'm still waiting for GOOD reasons why you think Chavez isn't trying to do something good for his country guess I'm going to have to wait a very long time.
And one last question are you saying I'm "blind" or "blinded"?

[Pere Jordi]

when people attack you style, you appearence, you skin color, that means you are winning the "battle".

you are atacking my poor english (i repeat to the people, my maternal language is Spanish, not english, but i think it's necessary clearify the Chaves #revolutionary process" to the european and no.spanish people in this forum).

I am not a poet, i am marxist, leninist and Trostkyst. OK?.

TWO LITTLE QUESTION FOR YOU:

What the hell is a Chavist? what is the contribution of you maximus leader to the REVOLUTIONARY MARXIST TEORY ?

If I take the Hitler's example is to show you how the people can considerate a leader as good for themselves... as you know german people was wrong.

I have 21, man, the age is not important when we are talking about marxist theory...

"please. Do it for the kids" you said... I think this KIDS can teach you about marxism hehhehe

and i am not lying... i am talking about you ridiculous process... process? a process take you to another (better) situation... marxist process take you to the socialist society... you proces is marxist?? i dont think so.

You ask if I think Chaves is doing something good for his ****ry... my reasons...

I think Chaves isnt doing something good, because he's distracting the people with another things...

He have, in this moment the atention of a great part of venezuela population, but people is tired, boring with his "process"...

thats the reason for the upgrowth of the OPOSITION.



maybe YOU ARE the one who need show US why we must considerate chavez as revolutionary... his frienship with Castro? with saddam Husein?? hehhe thats are not good reasons...

YOU need to argue your position. I show you all wath I Think about Chavez...

you dont show anything... maybe you dont have anything to show???

Heyy FORUM, wake up!!!! dont be quiet!!!

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Oh please I'm not attacking your race or beliefs just your stupidness so grow up!!! here are your answers.
First this is not a marxist revolution you idiot!!!!
It's the Bolivarian revolution the name even says It ,our basis comes from Bolivar's ideas.And yes I can mention some good things about my president giving oil aid to Cuba and the caribean ,creating banks with low or no interest so people can start small shops,creating schools for the poor and the indians ,making housing programs ,fishing and land reforms etc....
So there you have It.

PS:Stop being such an asshole by putting words in my mouth I would never say.
Chao!

(Edited by Guardia Bolivariano at 4:32 pm on Nov. 2, 2002)

[Pere Jordi]

well, we are having a double conversation :D :D

i aswer you this last message in the other forum, as you can see...

well, I said you there, thanks for your conversation, I am not trying to put words i your mouth heheheh

well, really, i think chavez is not really bad, but he's distracting our revolutionary objetive.

Maybe he's not a bad leader, but i am interested in a revolution here in LatinAmerica.

Well, I am marxist and you aren't as you say. Thats the difference. We, marxist, can not be satisficed with this "good thing"... we want revolution.

we arent interested in reforms, we want to destroy capitalism.

I think Chavez is not a fighter against capitalism. he's fighting against the "traditional" politics in Venezuela. That's good but isn't enought.

I suuport Chavez against them, but i dont support chavez reformist process.

I know Chavez is doing his "bolivarian" process, but if his proyect isnt against the capitalism, then is again social revolution. We must fight against capitalism, not transform it!!!

but some people (i think much people) think in venezuela chavez process is like Castro process in Cuba. what do you think about this thinks?

bye bye!!

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Man Chavez's goverment doesn't work for your objectives he works for the objectives of the Venezuelan people so don't include yourself in ou fight.We have our own revolution and we'll work It in our own way!You don't like It to bad!!!!!
Instead of giving wrongfull and uneducated opinions about our revolution you should try to do something for the country you live in!

Man I never said I wasn't a marxist but again here comes your bullshit, you make so much of It you could open a fertiliser store.

[Pere Jordi]

I post my last answer in the another Forum (in Q&A).

I just hope you are in the right way... i hope venezuelan people can learn with this actual experience and his results...

really, people can learn with his own experiences but they must considerate another similar experiences...


well, I can see you are so convenced... i think it's unnecessary to continue talking...

the time will reveal who of us have the reason... just remember, Chavez isn't alone in the Box Ring...

Bye bye!!!

[Guardia Bolivariano]

That's what's sopose to happen in the first place let the man govern the country in peace!!!!!