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View Full Version : Two short quesitions on marxist definitins



jaddaok
14th April 2007, 16:38
I hope someone here can solve this for me:

1: What class will a farmer who owns his own land belong to according to the marxist class model? Will owning his own means of production put him in a higher class than engineers/lawyers etc who sell their labour to capitalists?

2: Accourding to the labour theory of value only commodities can have value. Does that mean that a human life is worthless seeing as it's not a commodity? Or if it somehow fits in the definition of 'commodity' will an adult be more worth than a child as there has been invested more labour into socializing/educating him?

Led Zeppelin
14th April 2007, 16:42
1: What class will a farmer who owns his own land belong to according to the marxist class model? Will owning his own means of production put him in a higher class than engineers/lawyers etc who sell their labour to capitalists?

If the landlord is well-to-do then they are part of the petty-bourgeois class, if they own a worthless piece of land and are barely able to live off of it they are agricultural proletarians.


2: Accourding to the labour theory of value only commodities can have value. Does that mean that a human life is worthless seeing as it's not a commodity? Or if it somehow fits in the definition of 'commodity' will an adult be more worth than a child as there has been invested more labour into socializing/educating him?


By value it is meant economic value, not objective value.

jaddaok
14th April 2007, 16:52
Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 03:42 pm
If the landlord is well-to-do then they are part of the petty-bourgeois class, if they own a worthless piece of land and are barely able to live off of it they are agricultural proletarians.
Whether a farmer is well off or not dosn't really mather here as, from what I have understood, Marx defined classes based soley on their relationship to the means of production and not on their wealth. Shouldn't then a rich and a poor farmer both belong to the petty-bourgeois as they both control their own means of production?

TheGreenWeeWee
14th April 2007, 16:55
Wow, I really don't know how to answer #1. I don't think a farmer would be a higher class than lawyers or engineers. Agri businesses has replaced the family farm in many places. I had relatives who used to own a dairy farm but were forced out of business due to competition. My cousins did all the labor and there were no hired hands.

#2. Worker's labor power is the commodity sold to the capitalist class. Human life is never worthless which is why civil liberties need to be protected if and when a new society begins. Putting monetary value on people is what capitalist do. Those on the Left value people whether they are young, old, come from different cultures, religious differences, color, sex, or with disabilities. At least I believe like this.

Led Zeppelin
14th April 2007, 16:57
Whether a farmer is well off or not dosn't really mather here as, from what I have understood, Marx defined classes based soley on their relationship to the means of production and not on their wealth. Shouldn't then a rich and a poor farmer both belong to the petty-bourgeois as they both control their own means of production?

The difference is that a rich landlord doesn't work himself (or at least not alone) and has others working for him, so he gives out a wage, so he has employees, so he is a petty-bourgeois.

Also, Marx might have not considered wealth as much of an issue as the relations to the means of production, but wealth is definitely a factor in one's class position.

TheGreenWeeWee
14th April 2007, 16:58
Whether a farmer is well off or not dosn't really mather here as, from what I have understood, Marx defined classes based soley on their relationship to the means of production and not on their wealth. Shouldn't then a rich and a poor farmer both belong to the petty-bourgeois as they both control their own means of production?

Yeah, that's it.

Die Neue Zeit
14th April 2007, 17:45
In the modern era, what about corporate managers? They "sell their labour," yet receive perks.

jaddaok
14th April 2007, 17:55
So Marx' class definitions are wrong/outdated?

bloody_capitalist_sham
14th April 2007, 19:02
In the modern era, what about corporate managers? They "sell their labour," yet receive perks.

In Britain at the end of 2005 in the Financial part of London called the city of London, 2000 people received on top of their salary over five billion pounds.

So, clearly, their salary is a token, the Bonus their company pays them, or well they pay themselves, is some of the surplus extracted.

rouchambeau
14th April 2007, 19:23
Dude. You don't care about learning what we are telling you. You're just looking to start some shit. State what your point is, and let's go from there.

TheGreenWeeWee
14th April 2007, 19:28
Corporate manager do the function of what the capitalist use to do and gets perks for holding down wages and increasing profits. He/she can be fired at any time.

jaddox wrote: So Marx' class definitions are wrong/outdated?

I don't think so. He just could not predict everything that would happen in capitalism.

Whitten
15th April 2007, 11:57
The farmer is either peasantry (small or big)in non-developed nations, or petty-bourgeois in developed nations. If the the " farmer" just hires a staff to run his land, and does no labour himself, then he is Bourgeois.

The Labour Theory of Value is not at fault when it comes to putting a $$$ figure on a human life, the fault is trying to put a $$$ figure on a human life.

The corporate manager/executive is Petty-Bourgeois, as they are still required to contribute "labour", however they are rewarded with income derived from the surplus value of the workers labour.

Severian
16th April 2007, 06:05
Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 10:55 am
So Marx' class definitions are wrong/outdated?
No, just the oversimplifications repeated by some "Marxists". Marx needs to be constantly updated, of course, and the materialist method he developed applied to new situations.

But before modifying Marx's ideas - it's a good idea to understand them first. And before applying the materialist method, it's necessary to know facts about the material situation one is analyzing, in this case property and relations of labor in agriculture.

The founders of modern communism, Marx and Engels, had a complex analysis of farmers, or peasants.

Farmers are a spectrum of classes. Some own little land and do wage labor or rent land. Others own more, and live by their own labor on their own land - but are probably exploited by the banks, and the agribusinesses they buy from and sell to. Others own more means of production than they can work with their own labor, and exploit wage-labourers or tenant farmers. There's a lot of fuzziness in all these categories.

Only the last are, well, exploiters, petty-bourgeoisie. (Keep in mind that's what petty-bourgeois means, small bourgeois, petty exploiters, cockroach bosses.) The first are close to the working class.

As always, I suggest reading the Marx, etc., for yourself, rather than trusting somebody else's watered-down oversimplified version.
Engels: On the Peasant Question in France and Germany (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894/peasant-question/ch01.htm)

The Demands of the Communist Party in Germany (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/03/24.htm), widely distributed during the 1848 revolution, also take up the situation of the peasants.

A past thread where I gave some stats on present-day farmers in the U.S. (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=53689&st=0&#entry1292132422) I would encourage everyone to learn more about the economic situation of farmers before making assumptions.

As for engineers, managers, and whatnot: there are a lot of professionals who obviously are not just selling their labour-power, because they earn a lot more than the value of any kind of labour-power. To take one example, medical schools and the AMA deliberately limit the number of their graduates in order to keep doctors' salaries up. It would seem in this case ownership of a medical degree is a sort of revenue-producing property of its own. That may be true of some other formal degrees as well.

There are a lot of gray areas here as well, exactly where people stop being workers and become part of the professional middle classes can be hard to define.

But this is not some wholly new social layer; just a greatly expanded one. Marx mentions lawyers, bureaucrats, and whatnot in Capital and elsewhere, usually as hangers-on of the capitalist class, fed with a share of the bosses' profits.

Kwisatz Haderach
16th April 2007, 09:32
Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 06:45 pm
In the modern era, what about corporate managers? They "sell their labour," yet receive perks.
This brings up an important point:

When a capitalist business owner exploits his workers, he exploits them collectively - in other words, he extracts surplus value (and thus profit) from the work of all his employees put together, not from the work of each individual employee.

From this follows the conclusion that there is no reason why we should expect that each individual employee is exploited at the same rate. Some might have 70% of the value they produce taken away by the capitalist. Others might lose only 50%, or 30%, or 10%. And it is possible that some employees - a very small number - might experience a negative rate of exploitation. In other words, the business owner can share some of the spoils of exploitation with a few privileged employees, for various reasons (such as to ensure their loyalty). I believe CEOs fall in this category.