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wowsa
14th April 2007, 07:38
*edit: extracting surplus value, that is.

The problem with capitalism is that it's based on paying people less for their labor than it's worth, right?

But wait a minute. Some 90% of all new businesses fail, and by definition, if a business fails, it has failed to extract surplus value from labor. In fact, it has paid more for labor than it was actually worth!

Thus, let us take, for example, a man who only works for small start up businesses. How is such a man exploited for his labor? Given that most of his employers will eventually go broke, isn't he actually extracting surplus value out of his employers? Not the other way around?

But wait a bit more...we don't even have to have an unrealistic example of someone who only works for start up companies. Anytime a person works for a company which did not turn a profit, then he has by definition been paid more than his work was worth, right?

The US stock market is rife with companies who lost money in the last quarter, and that's only publicly traded companies. Who knows how many privately owned companies lost money... probably even more, given that you have to be more established to have your company listed on the stock exchange. And in each one of these examples, the worker was actually paid more for his labor than it is worth.

So isn't it pretty misguided to say capitalism is wrong because it's based on exploiting the worker? Doesn't that assume that anyone with capital can easily go about extracting surplus value from labor?

In reality, on the contrary, isn't it pretty much an equal game of tug of war, wherein the workers and owners are extracting surplus value out of each other? And furthermore, when we look at the astounding rate of business failure, isn't the free market quite often a give away to workers?

ComradeRed
14th April 2007, 07:53
Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 10:38 pm
But wait a minute. Some 90% of all new businesses fail, and by definition, if a business fails, it has failed to extract surplus value from labor. In fact, it has paid more for labor than it was actually worth!
The capitalist buys the worker&#39;s labor-power, not the guarantee that commodities will be sold; your fundamental premise is flawed from your encyclopedic ignorance <_<

wowsa
14th April 2007, 08:20
Originally posted by ComradeRed+April 14, 2007 06:53 am--> (ComradeRed @ April 14, 2007 06:53 am)
[email protected] 13, 2007 10:38 pm
But wait a minute. Some 90% of all new businesses fail, and by definition, if a business fails, it has failed to extract surplus value from labor. In fact, it has paid more for labor than it was actually worth&#33;
The capitalist buys the worker&#39;s labor-power, not the guarantee that commodities will be sold; your fundamental premise is flawed from your encyclopedic ignorance <_< [/b]
What does that have to do with paying the worker less than his work is worth?

Guarantee the commodity will be sold or not, since you say the capitalist buys the worker&#39;s labor power, the question is-- what is the true value of his labor power? Only after you answer that question, can you tell whom is being exploited.

If it turns out that the capitalist paid more for labor than the product of the labor is worth, how can you say the worker is exploited? In such a case, it&#39;s the capitalist who had surplus value extracted from him, not the worker.

ComradeRed
14th April 2007, 08:38
Originally posted by wowsa+April 13, 2007 11:20 pm--> (wowsa @ April 13, 2007 11:20 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 06:53 am

[email protected] 13, 2007 10:38 pm
But wait a minute. Some 90% of all new businesses fail, and by definition, if a business fails, it has failed to extract surplus value from labor. In fact, it has paid more for labor than it was actually worth&#33;
The capitalist buys the worker&#39;s labor-power, not the guarantee that commodities will be sold; your fundamental premise is flawed from your encyclopedic ignorance <_<
What does that have to do with paying the worker less than his work is worth?

Guarantee the commodity will be sold or not, since you say the capitalist buys the worker&#39;s labor power, the question is-- what is the true value of his labor power? Only after you answer that question, can you tell whom is being exploited.

If it turns out that the capitalist paid more for labor than the product of the labor is worth, how can you say the worker is exploited? In such a case, it&#39;s the capitalist who had surplus value extracted from him, not the worker. [/b]
A great deal of your "points" are dealt with in this quote from Capital vol. I:

The change of value that occurs in the case of money intended to be converted into capital, cannot take place in the money itself, since in its function of means of purchase and of payment, it does no more than realise the price of the commodity it buys or pays for; and, as hard cash, it is value petrified, never varying. [1] Just as little can it originate in the second act of circulation, the re-sale of the commodity, which does no more than transform the article from its bodily form back again into its money-form. The change must, therefore, take place in the commodity bought by the first act, M-C, but not in its value, for equivalents are exchanged, and the commodity is paid for at its full value. We are, therefore, forced to the conclusion that the change originates in the use-value, as such, of the commodity, i.e., in its consumption. In order to be able to extract value from the consumption of a commodity, our friend, Moneybags, must be so lucky as to find, within the sphere of circulation, in the market, a commodity, whose use-value possesses the peculiar property of being a source of value, whose actual consumption, therefore, is itself an embodiment of labour, and, consequently, a creation of value. The possessor of money does find on the market such a special commodity in capacity for labour or labour-power.

By labour-power or capacity for labour is to be understood the aggregate of those mental and physical capabilities existing in a human being, which he exercises whenever he produces a use-value of any description.

But in order that our owner of money may be able to find labour-power offered for sale as a commodity, various conditions must first be fulfilled. The exchange of commodities of itself implies no other relations of dependence than those which, result from its own nature. On this assumption, labour-power can appear upon the market as a commodity, only if, and so far as, its possessor, the individual whose labour-power it is, offers it for sale, or sells it, as a commodity. In order that he may be able to do this, he must have it at his disposal, must be the untrammelled owner of his capacity for labour, i.e., of his person. [2] He and the owner of money meet in the market, and deal with each other as on the basis of equal rights, with this difference alone, that one is buyer, the other seller; both, therefore, equal in the eyes of the law. The continuance of this relation demands that the owner of the labour-power should sell it only for a definite period, for if he were to sell it rump and stump, once for all, he would be selling himself, converting himself from a free man into a slave, from an owner of a commodity into a commodity. He must constantly look upon his labour-power as his own property, his own commodity, and this he can only do by placing it at the disposal of the buyer temporarily, for a definite period of time. By this means alone can he avoid renouncing his rights of ownership over it. [3]

The second essential condition to the owner of money finding labour-power in the market as a commodity is this — that the labourer instead of being in the position to sell commodities in which his labour is incorporated, must be obliged to offer for sale as a commodity that very labour-power, which exists only in his living self.

In order that a man may be able to sell commodities other than labour-power, he must of course have the means of production, as raw material, implements, &c. No boots can be made without leather. He requires also the means of subsistence. Nobody — not even “a musician of the future” — can live upon future products, or upon use-values in an unfinished state; and ever since the first moment of his appearance on the world’s stage, man always has been, and must still be a consumer, both before and while he is producing. In a society where all products assume the form of commodities, these commodities must be sold after they have been produced, it is only after their sale that they can serve in satisfying the requirements of their producer. The time necessary for their sale is superadded to that necessary for their production.

For the conversion of his money into capital, therefore, the owner of money must meet in the market with the free labourer, free in the double sense, that as a free man he can dispose of his labour-power as his own commodity, and that on the other hand he has no other commodity for sale, is short of everything necessary for the realisation of his labour-power.

The question why this free labourer confronts him in the market, has no interest for the owner of money, who regards the labour-market as a branch of the general market for commodities. And for the present it interests us just as little. We cling to the fact theoretically, as he does practically. One thing, however, is clear — Nature does not produce on the one side owners of money or commodities, and on the other men possessing nothing but their own labour-power. This relation has no natural basis, neither is its social basis one that is common to all historical periods. It is clearly the result of a past historical development, the product of many economic revolutions, of the extinction of a whole series of older forms of social production.

So, too, the economic categories, already discussed by us, bear the stamp of history. Definite historical conditions are necessary that a product may become a commodity. It must not be produced as the immediate means of subsistence of the producer himself. Had we gone further, and inquired under what circumstances all, or even the majority of products take the form of commodities, we should have found that this can only happen with production of a very specific kind, capitalist production. Such an inquiry, however, would have been foreign to the analysis of commodities. Production and circulation of commodities can take place, although the great mass of the objects produced are intended for the immediate requirements of their producers, are not turned into commodities, and consequently social production is not yet by a long way dominated in its length and breadth by exchange-value. The appearance of products as commodities pre-supposes such a development of the social division of labour, that the separation of use-value from exchange-value, a separation which first begins with barter, must already have been completed. But such a degree of development is common to many forms of society, which in other respects present the most varying historical features. On the other hand, if we consider money, its existence implies a definite stage in the exchange of commodities. The particular functions of money which it performs, either as the mere equivalent of commodities, or as means of circulation, or means of payment, as hoard or as universal money, point, according to the extent and relative preponderance of the one function or the other, to very different stages in the process of social production. Yet we know by experience that a circulation of commodities relatively primitive, suffices for the production of all these forms. Otherwise with capital. The historical conditions of its existence are by no means given with the mere circulation of money and commodities. It can spring into life, only when the owner of the means of production and subsistence meets in the market with the free labourer selling his labour-power. And this one historical condition comprises a world’s history. Capital, therefore, announces from its first appearance a new epoch in the process of social production. [4]

We must now examine more closely this peculiar commodity, labour-power. Like all others it has a value. [5] How is that value determined?

The value of labour-power is determined, as in the case of every other commodity, by the labour-time necessary for the production, and consequently also the reproduction, of this special article. So far as it has value, it represents no more than a definite quantity of the average labour of society incorporated in it. Labour-power exists only as a capacity, or power of the living individual. Its production consequently pre-supposes his existence. Given the individual, the production of labour-power consists in his reproduction of himself or his maintenance. For his maintenance he requires a given quantity of the means of subsistence. Therefore the labour-time requisite for the production of labour-power reduces itself to that necessary for the production of those means of subsistence; in other words, the value of labour-power is the value of the means of subsistence necessary for the maintenance of the labourer. Labour-power, however, becomes a reality only by its exercise; it sets itself in action only by working. But thereby a definite quantity of human muscle, nerve. brain, &c., is wasted, and these require to be restored. This increased expenditure demands a larger income. [6] If the owner of labour-power works to-day, to-morrow he must again be able to repeat the same process in the same conditions as regards health and strength. His means of subsistence must therefore be sufficient to maintain him in his normal state as a labouring individual. His natural wants, such as food, clothing, fuel, and housing, vary according to the climatic and other physical conditions of his country. On the other hand, the number and extent of his so-called necessary wants, as also the modes of satisfying them, are themselves the product of historical development, and depend therefore to a great extent on the degree of civilisation of a country, more particularly on the conditions under which, and consequently on the habits and degree of comfort in which, the class of free labourers has been formed. [7] In contradistinction therefore to the case of other commodities, there enters into the determination of the value of labour-power a historical and moral element. Nevertheless, in a given country, at a given period, the average quantity of the means of subsistence necessary for the labourer is practically known.

The owner of labour-power is mortal. If then his appearance in the market is to be continuous, and the continuous conversion of money into capital assumes this, the seller of labour-power must perpetuate himself, “in the way that every living individual perpetuates himself, by procreation.” [8] The labour-power withdrawn from the market by wear and tear and death, must be continually replaced by, at the very least, an equal amount of fresh labour-power. Hence the sum of the means of subsistence necessary for the production of labour-power must include the means necessary for the labourer’s substitutes, i.e., his children, in order that this race of peculiar commodity-owners may perpetuate its appearance in the market. [9]

In order to modify the human organism, so that it may acquire skill and handiness in a given branch of industry, and become labour-power of a special kind, a special education or training is requisite, and this, on its part, costs an equivalent in commodities of a greater or less amount. This amount varies according to the more or less complicated character of the labour-power. The expenses of this education (excessively small in the case of ordinary labour-power), enter pro tanto into the total value spent in its production.

The value of labour-power resolves itself into the value of a definite quantity of the means of subsistence. It therefore varies with the value of these means or with the quantity of labour requisite for their production.

Some of the means of subsistence, such as food and fuel, are consumed daily, and a fresh supply must be provided daily. Others such as clothes and furniture last for longer periods and require to be replaced only at longer intervals. One article must be bought or paid for daily, another weekly, another quarterly, and so on. But in whatever way the sum total of these outlays may be spread over the year, they must be covered by the average income, taking one day with another. If the total of the commodities required daily for the production of labour-power = A, and those required weekly = B, and those required quarterly = C, and so on, the daily average of these commodities = 365A + 52B + 4C + &c / 365. Suppose that in this mass of commodities requisite for the average day there are embodied 6 hours of social labour, then there is incorporated daily in labour-power half a day’s average social labour, in other words, half a day’s labour is requisite for the daily production of labour-power. This quantity of labour forms the value of a day’s labour-power or the value of the labour-power daily reproduced. If half a day’s average social labour is incorporated in three shillings, then three shillings is the price corresponding to the value of a day’s labour-power. If its owner therefore offers it for sale at three shillings a day, its selling price is equal to its value, and according to our supposition, our friend Moneybags, who is intent upon converting his three shillings into capital, pays this value.

The minimum limit of the value of labour-power is determined by the value of the commodities, without the daily supply of which the labourer cannot renew his vital energy, consequently by the value of those means of subsistence that are physically indispensable. If the price of labour-power fall to this minimum, it falls below its value, since under such circumstances it can be maintained and developed only in a crippled state. But the value of every commodity is determined by the labour-time requisite to turn it out so as to be of normal quality.

It is a very cheap sort of sentimentality which declares this method of determining the value of labour-power, a method prescribed by the very nature of the case, to be a brutal method, and which wails with Rossi that, “To comprehend capacity for labour (puissance de travail) at the same time that we make abstraction from the means of subsistence of the labourers during the process of production, is to comprehend a phantom (être de raison). When we speak of labour, or capacity for labour, we speak at the same time of the labourer and his means of subsistence, of labourer and wages.” [10] When we speak of capacity for labour, we do not speak of labour, any more than when we speak of capacity for digestion, we speak of digestion. The latter process requires something more than a good stomach. When we speak of capacity for labour, we do not abstract from the necessary means of subsistence. On the contrary, their value is expressed in its value. If his capacity for labour remains unsold, the labourer derives no benefit from it, but rather he will feel it to be a cruel nature-imposed necessity that this capacity has cost for its production a definite amount of the means of subsistence and that it will continue to do so for its reproduction. He will then agree with Sismondi: “that capacity for labour ... is nothing unless it is sold.” [11]

One consequence of the peculiar nature of labour-power as a commodity is, that its use-value does not, on the conclusion of the contract between the buyer and seller, immediately pass into the hands of the former. Its value, like that of every other commodity, is already fixed before it goes into circulation, since a definite quantity of social labour has been spent upon it; but its use-value consists in the subsequent exercise of its force. The alienation of labour-power and its actual appropriation by the buyer, its employment as a use-value, are separated by an interval of time. But in those cases in which the formal alienation by sale of the use-value of a commodity, is not simultaneous with its actual delivery to the buyer, the money of the latter usually functions as means of payment. [12] In every country in which the capitalist mode of production reigns, it is the custom not to pay for labour-power before it has been exercised for the period fixed by the contract, as for example, the end of each week. In all cases, therefore, the use-value of the labour-power is advanced to the capitalist: the labourer allows the buyer to consume it before he receives payment of the price; he everywhere gives credit to the capitalist. That this credit is no mere fiction, is shown not only by the occasional loss of wages on the bankruptcy of the capitalist, [13] but also by a series of more enduring consequences. [14] Nevertheless, whether money serves as a means of purchase or as a means of payment, this makes no alteration in the nature of the exchange of commodities. The price of the labour-power is fixed by the contract, although it is not realised till later, like the rent of a house. The labour-power is sold, although it is only paid for at a later period. It will, therefore, be useful, for a clear comprehension of the relation of the parties, to assume provisionally, that the possessor of labour-power, on the occasion of each sale, immediately receives the price stipulated to be paid for it.

We now know how the value paid by the purchaser to the possessor of this peculiar commodity, labour-power, is determined. The use-value which the former gets in exchange, manifests itself only in the actual usufruct, in the consumption of the labour-power. The money-owner buys everything necessary for this purpose, such as raw material, in the market, and pays for it at its full value. The consumption of labour-power is at one and the same time the production of commodities and of surplus-value. The consumption of labour-power is completed, as in the case of every other commodity, outside the limits of the market or of the sphere of circulation. Accompanied by Mr. Moneybags and by the possessor of labour-power, we therefore take leave for a time of this noisy sphere, where everything takes place on the surface and in view of all men, and follow them both into the hidden abode of production, on whose threshold there stares us in the face “No admittance except on business.” Here we shall see, not only how capital produces, but how capital is produced. We shall at last force the secret of profit making.

This sphere that we are deserting, within whose boundaries the sale and purchase of labour-power goes on, is in fact a very Eden of the innate rights of man. There alone rule Freedom, Equality, Property and Bentham. Freedom, because both buyer and seller of a commodity, say of labour-power, are constrained only by their own free will. They contract as free agents, and the agreement they come to, is but the form in which they give legal expression to their common will. Equality, because each enters into relation with the other, as with a simple owner of commodities, and they exchange equivalent for equivalent. Property, because each disposes only of what is his own. And Bentham, because each looks only to himself. The only force that brings them together and puts them in relation with each other, is the selfishness, the gain and the private interests of each. Each looks to himself only, and no one troubles himself about the rest, and just because they do so, do they all, in accordance with the pre-established harmony of things, or under the auspices of an all-shrewd providence, work together to their mutual advantage, for the common weal and in the interest of all.

On leaving this sphere of simple circulation or of exchange of commodities, which furnishes the “Free-trader Vulgaris” with his views and ideas, and with the standard by which he judges a society based on capital and wages, we think we can perceive a change in the physiognomy of our dramatis personae. He, who before was the money-owner, now strides in front as capitalist; the possessor of labour-power follows as his labourer. The one with an air of importance, smirking, intent on business; the other, timid and holding back, like one who is bringing his own hide to market and has nothing to expect but — a hiding. --emphasis added

JazzRemington
14th April 2007, 08:57
Your assertion rests on that these businesses fail because they pay workers more than the value of the goods they produce, yet you do not offer any credible, let alone any, evidence that this happens.

But ComradeRed&#39;s assertion has everything to do with paying the worker less than his work is worth. Because the value of labor is always less than what the value created by it is.

If, hypothetically (and I mean that becuase there&#39;s no evidence to the contrary) a firm does pay a worker the total value that he creates then this firm is not generating surplus value and will most likely go out of business. Remember: surplus value can be considered profit, and without profit a business fails. By your logic, if a firm doesn&#39;t generate profit then that means profit doesn&#39;t exist.

In a technical sense, if a capitalist individually pays his workers more than the value of what they produce, then the workers aren&#39;t being exploited in the technical sense of the definition. But without surplus value there is no business, period. Thus, there MUST be surplus value generated.

However, I would like to see the connection between one capitalist not exploiting his workers and all workers not exploting their workers.

wowsa
14th April 2007, 16:04
Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 07:57 am
But without surplus value there is no business, period. Thus, there MUST be surplus value generated.

However, I would like to see the connection between one capitalist not exploiting his workers and all workers not exploting their workers.
Exactly. Without surplus value, there is no business. This would explain why some 90% of all new businesses fail and so many firms regularly do not turn profits during time periods-- they failed to extract any surplus value, which means there was no exploitation.

It&#39;s not one capitalist not exploiting his workers, it&#39;s thousands upon thousands. Failure in business is the rule, not the exception. The only reason that business success seems so common to the observer is survivorship bias. In fact, most businesses which sprout up eventually go bankrupt. Furthermore, even among generally profitable businesses, unprofitable periods are very common-- see how many publicly traded companies did not turn a profit last quarter for evidence.

Granted, it doesn&#39;t necessarily follow that because a business did not turn a profit, it has over paid its workers for their labor. The business could have managed to extract surplus from labor, but, for example, squandered that surplus on worthless advertising or an excessively expensive building. But generally speaking, if a business is managing to pay people 5 dollars to make a widget that sells for 10, then that business will be in good shape.

Led Zeppelin
14th April 2007, 16:39
Who cares if they extract surplus value from it or not? The fact is that they are the people who work, so they can - and will - have to get rid of the capitalists who do not use the business for the good of the workers but for the good of their pockets.

Pow R. Toc H.
14th April 2007, 17:01
Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 03:04 pm
This would explain why some 90% of all new businesses fail and so many firms regularly do not turn profits during time periods but as the post above me says, the value being extracted isnt being used for the good of the workers, its being used for the good of the capitalist.
Sure this could explain it or, it could be something like under inflation, which causes the value of comodities to go down, and in turn causing less profit. But as the post above me says it is neccessary to get rid of the capitalitst because the value of the labor being extracted isnt beind used for the good of the worker it is being used for the profit of the capitalist.

JazzRemington
14th April 2007, 17:41
Wowsa, your assertions make no sense. Just because a capitalist doesn&#39;t extract surplus-value doesn&#39;t mean the worker is exploiting the capitalist. Your assertion that workers exploit capitalist has absolutely no logical or emperical backing.

And I didn&#39;t say that most businesses fail. But your numbers are wrong: 50% of small businesses fail within the first year with 90% failing within a few years. But again there is absolutely NO evidence to support that they failed BECAUSE of overpaying their labor.

wowsa
14th April 2007, 19:27
Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 04:41 pm
Wowsa, your assertions make no sense. Just because a capitalist doesn&#39;t extract surplus-value doesn&#39;t mean the worker is exploiting the capitalist. Your assertion that workers exploit capitalist has absolutely no logical or emperical backing.

And I didn&#39;t say that most businesses fail. But your numbers are wrong: 50% of small businesses fail within the first year with 90% failing within a few years. But again there is absolutely NO evidence to support that they failed BECAUSE of overpaying their labor.
What do you mean no logical basis?

If a capitalist pays a worker 5 dollars to make a widget which he then sells for 10, he&#39;s just exploited the worker for 5 dollars of surplus value.

If a capitalist pays a worker 5 dollars to make a widget which he then sells for 3 or can&#39;t sell at all, then the worker just exploited the capitalist. The worker was paid 5 dollars to make something which is worth less than he was paid or which has no value at all.

JazzRemington
14th April 2007, 21:42
If a capitalist pays a worker 5 dollars to make a widget which he then sells for 3 or can&#39;t sell at all, then the worker just exploited the capitalist. The worker was paid 5 dollars to make something which is worth less than he was paid or which has no value at all.

This example doesn&#39;t make sense. This shows you don&#39;t understand what exploitation is. Exploitation is when surplus value is generated from value that is created beyond the value of labor. Thus only labor can generate value and be exploited. The capitalist doesn&#39;t perform any labor in the production sphere and thus cannot be exploited.

Thus, your argument here doesn&#39;t make sense.

wtfm8lol
15th April 2007, 02:17
The capitalist doesn&#39;t perform any labor in the production sphere and thus cannot be exploited.

what utter nonsense.

Rawthentic
15th April 2007, 02:51
He owns the means of production dumbshit. Whether he lifts a finger or not, who gives a fuck?

It is insignificant.

wtfm8lol
15th April 2007, 03:06
he gives a fuck, because if he doesnt lift a finger, the use of his means of production goes unmanaged. and when that happens, he goes out of business and loses his means of production.

ZX3
15th April 2007, 03:07
Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 03:42 pm

If a capitalist pays a worker 5 dollars to make a widget which he then sells for 3 or can&#39;t sell at all, then the worker just exploited the capitalist. The worker was paid 5 dollars to make something which is worth less than he was paid or which has no value at all.

This example doesn&#39;t make sense. This shows you don&#39;t understand what exploitation is. Exploitation is when surplus value is generated from value that is created beyond the value of labor. Thus only labor can generate value and be exploited. The capitalist doesn&#39;t perform any labor in the production sphere and thus cannot be exploited.

Thus, your argument here doesn&#39;t make sense.

The definition of "exploitation" as used by the Marxists seem fairly accurate to what Wowsa is saying. In this case, the workers are receiving greater value in return for what they produced. The capitalist suffers the loss. The workers benefited at the expense of the failed risk by the capitalist. Whether the failure occurred because the workers were paid too much is irrelevent.

For handling the risk of production is one of the great strengths of capitalism over socialism. And in any economic venture there is always the issue of risk. In the widget example, the risk of producing widgets is placed upon the capitalist. If he is unable to sell the widgets for a profit, HE LOSES out. The worker is still paid, regardless. Naturally, such a state of affairs cannot continue indefinitely in either a capitalist or socialist environment.

However, in the socialist community, the worker, and the community, assumes the risk of economic production. If the value of the widget turns out to be less than the value of its production, the worker loses out. Its his loss. Its entirely reasonable to imagine a scenario where the worker receives NO compensation for his labor (which would truly be an example of slavery). And please no comments of "there is no money in socilaism, therefore its quite easy to imagine a scenario of no compensation." Production for no purpose harms the entire community, regardless if money is not imagined as being needed.

The economic risk of production in capitalism is limited in scope. In socialism, it is spread throughout the community. The latter cannot be considered a beneficial state of affairs.

JazzRemington
15th April 2007, 03:16
Originally posted by wtfm8lol+April 14, 2007 09:06 pm--> (wtfm8lol &#064; April 14, 2007 09:06 pm) he gives a fuck, because if he doesnt lift a finger, the use of his means of production goes unmanaged. and when that happens, he goes out of business and loses his means of production. [/b]
This statement still presupposes that the capitalist doesn&#39;t actually labor within the productive sphere.

The point of the capitalist is to provide and possibly manage capital (if management is not delegated to someone else), not to actually labor. Management and the providing of capital are not productive acts. They do not produce anything in themselves. If I give some kid who wants to cut my grass access to my lawn mower my lawn isn&#39;t going to be mowed until he exerts his labor to do so.


ZX3
The economic risk of production in capitalism is limited in scope.
This is bullshit and you know it. The capitalist isn&#39;t the only one at risk with businesses and those who venture the risk aren&#39;t the only ones who suffer. If a firm goes under, the workers are out of a job, which affects aggregate demand due to the loss of income available for other products. Markets don&#39;t isolate failures to the people who take whatever risk resulted in the failure. Even main stream economics textbooks admit that it&#39;s nonsense to suppose the capitalist will be the only one to suffer.

wtfm8lol
15th April 2007, 03:24
If I give some kid who wants to cut my grass access to my lawn mower my lawn isn&#39;t going to be mowed until he exerts his labor to do so.

terrible example, since the act of lawn-mowing doesn&#39;t create a product and delivers a service that only benefits the person who owns the means of production. anyway, if you add into the equation that i need to make sure there is gas in the lawn mower, make sure the lawn mower is in running order, make sure the kid has grass to cut, and multiply the complexity by a few thousand, you have the job of the average business owner. now how is management not a productive act?

JazzRemington
15th April 2007, 03:35
Because management makes sure THAT or IF something gets produced. It doesn&#39;t actually PRODUCE. The fact that capital is provided or management exists is completely incidental to the production process.

For example, a foreman&#39;s job is to make sure the people working in a widget factory work, or are productive. He isn&#39;t producing the widgets, he is only making sure they are produced. Making sure something gets produced and actually producing something are two different and separate things. You can produce without being managed, but you cannot have production management without production.

wtfm8lol
15th April 2007, 03:42
management in some form is absolutely essential to the production of some good (or the distribution of some service). you cannot separate the two, as they rely on each other. management is just as much a part of the overall production process as physically making the product.

ZX3
15th April 2007, 04:10
Originally posted by JazzRemington+April 14, 2007 09:16 pm--> (JazzRemington @ April 14, 2007 09:16 pm)

ZX3
The economic risk of production in capitalism is limited in scope.
This is bullshit and you know it. The capitalist isn&#39;t the only one at risk with businesses and those who venture the risk aren&#39;t the only ones who suffer. If a firm goes under, the workers are out of a job, which affects aggregate demand due to the loss of income available for other products. Markets don&#39;t isolate failures to the people who take whatever risk resulted in the failure. Even main stream economics textbooks admit that it&#39;s nonsense to suppose the capitalist will be the only one to suffer. [/b]
That is not what I said.

Every economic action has an element of risk involved. Even in a socialist community. The issue is how the risk is spread. In capitalism, it is the capitalist taking the risk because he is risking his capital. If the capitalist mistakenly produces uneeded items, or produces in aninefficient manner, the burden of failure is on his shoulders, not the worker. He&#39;s getting paid regardless of the result of the risk. Whatever wealth the worker has is not at risk. Certainly the worker can lose his job as the result of a bad risk by the capitalist. But that is it. The worker can get another job. He holds on to whatever he else he has, including whatever compensation he received from the capitalist. But the economic damage from the failure goes no further.

But not so in the socialist community. There the burden is entirely on the worker, or more exactly the community. If they mistakenly deploy labor to produce uneeded items, or produce them in an inefficient manner, the entire community suffers because it means they have not deployed labor in a more rational, productive manner. The worker has accumulated nothing, has lost something (because the community has deployed him in an unproductive manner), and the damage is spread throughout the community.

JazzRemington
15th April 2007, 04:12
Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 09:42 pm
management in some form is absolutely essential to the production of some good (or the distribution of some service). you cannot separate the two, as they rely on each other. management is just as much a part of the overall production process as physically making the product.
But management produces nothing itself.

JazzRemington
15th April 2007, 04:20
Originally posted by ZX3
If the capitalist mistakenly produces uneeded items, or produces in aninefficient manner, the burden of failure is on his shoulders, not the worker.

This ignores the dynamics of capitalism and assumes a capitalit&#39;s actions happen in a void, which is wrong and a dangerous belief. The Ford factory in Flint, Michegan went under in the early 90s, resulting in massive unemployment and eviction from housing. If your theory that the worker only looses his job and only his job ignores the dynamics and realities of being a worker in a market economy. There is no emperical evidence to support that a worker only looses his job when a firm goes under. Sociological research proves counter.


He&#39;s getting paid regardless of the result of the risk.

Then what&#39;s all the paycuts and wage reductions for? This once again ignores the dynamics of the system because it assumes that a capitalist loosing money will prefer to keep his workers&#39; pay the same and sacrifice profit, which according to the logic that people work under in capitalism makes no sense.


But not so in the socialist community. There the burden is entirely on the worker, or more exactly the community.

But if the risk of failure should be bore by those who take it, what&#39;s the problem?

ZX3
15th April 2007, 15:28
Originally posted by JazzRemington+April 14, 2007 10:20 pm--> (JazzRemington @ April 14, 2007 10:20 pm)
ZX3
If the capitalist mistakenly produces uneeded items, or produces in aninefficient manner, the burden of failure is on his shoulders, not the worker.

This ignores the dynamics of capitalism and assumes a capitalit&#39;s actions happen in a void, which is wrong and a dangerous belief. The Ford factory in Flint, Michegan went under in the early 90s, resulting in massive unemployment and eviction from housing. If your theory that the worker only looses his job and only his job ignores the dynamics and realities of being a worker in a market economy. There is no emperical evidence to support that a worker only looses his job when a firm goes under. Sociological research proves counter.


He&#39;s getting paid regardless of the result of the risk.

Then what&#39;s all the paycuts and wage reductions for? This once again ignores the dynamics of the system because it assumes that a capitalist loosing money will prefer to keep his workers&#39; pay the same and sacrifice profit, which according to the logic that people work under in capitalism makes no sense.


But not so in the socialist community. There the burden is entirely on the worker, or more exactly the community.

But if the risk of failure should be bore by those who take it, what&#39;s the problem? [/b]
Flint was the type of town one can expect being far more common in a socialist community- a community dependent almost entirely upon one industry.

That economic risk is inherent in any sort of economic transaction does not claim that capitalism&#39;s actions occur in a void. What it recognises is that the downside of the risk is limited in scope in the socialist community, and to whom the burdn falls upon. Yes, the workers face a problem should Ford Motor Company go under. The risk of the workers losing all in a socialist community is very real. It might be valid to say if the workers take the risk, so what? But the odds are the workers will NOT be as willing to take the risk in either new production, new methods of production ect. as the individual capitalist might and does.

wtfm8lol
15th April 2007, 17:24
Originally posted by JazzRemington+April 14, 2007 10:12 pm--> (JazzRemington @ April 14, 2007 10:12 pm)
[email protected] 14, 2007 09:42 pm
management in some form is absolutely essential to the production of some good (or the distribution of some service). you cannot separate the two, as they rely on each other. management is just as much a part of the overall production process as physically making the product.
But management produces nothing itself. [/b]
but it is necessary in order for anything to be produced, so your statement doesn&#39;t matter at all.

JazzRemington
15th April 2007, 18:10
Flint was the type of town one can expect being far more common in a socialist community- a community dependent almost entirely upon one industry.

That Flint somehow fits a socialist model has nothing to do with the fact that your model of limited risk is completely wrong and counter to some 100 years of sociological research.


But the odds are the workers will NOT be as willing to take the risk in either new production, new methods of production ect. as the individual capitalist might and does.

So, what you&#39;re saying is that under socialism a worker would risk everything and in capitalism a capitalist risks everything. But yet a capitalist takes the risk, and the worker wouldn&#39;t?

JazzRemington
15th April 2007, 18:18
Originally posted by wtfm8lol+April 15, 2007 11:24 am--> (wtfm8lol @ April 15, 2007 11:24 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 10:12 pm

[email protected] 14, 2007 09:42 pm
management in some form is absolutely essential to the production of some good (or the distribution of some service). you cannot separate the two, as they rely on each other. management is just as much a part of the overall production process as physically making the product.
But management produces nothing itself.
but it is necessary in order for anything to be produced, so your statement doesn&#39;t matter at all. [/b]
So, your logic is that if it&#39;s necessary, then it&#39;s produces something? If you remove management from its context, it doesn&#39;t produce anything. And don&#39;t tell me I&#39;m ignoring dynamics because mainstream economic textbooks do what I just did all the time.

wtfm8lol
15th April 2007, 19:01
i dont see why we&#39;re arguing about this. i&#39;m claiming that management is a necessary part of the production process, and you&#39;re not denying that. you&#39;re claiming that management doesn&#39;t physically produce anything, and i&#39;m not denying that. rather i&#39;m saying that what you claim doesn&#39;t matter.

Rawthentic
15th April 2007, 20:15
i&#39;m claiming that management is a necessary part of the production
No it&#39;s not. You already admitted that they don&#39;t produce commodities. If they don&#39;t produce, then are just an extra useless baggage that must be thrown off.

We are not stupid. We can run things on our own.

wtfm8lol
15th April 2007, 20:23
Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 02:15 pm

i&#39;m claiming that management is a necessary part of the production
No it&#39;s not. You already admitted that they don&#39;t produce commodities. If they don&#39;t produce, then are just an extra useless baggage that must be thrown off.

We are not stupid. We can run things on our own.
you are an idiot. i never said or even implied that the workers couldn&#39;t manage themselves. i just said that no matter what, some management has to be done. dumbass.

Rawthentic
15th April 2007, 20:30
You are to vague.

You mean that we need managers over workers or that workers can manage their own workplace?

Be clear dammit.

wtfm8lol
15th April 2007, 20:31
all i&#39;ve argued in this thread is that some form of management, whether it is done by workers or by managers, is necessary in order for physical production to take place.

Rawthentic
15th April 2007, 20:32
Fine.

But you are weird and confusing.

You are ok with capitalism, but would also be ok with socialism?

Demogorgon
15th April 2007, 20:36
At any rate...

The fact that the capitalists sometimes carry out management (though they often employ others to do that) is not how they are exploiting anyway. It is their extraction of surplus value that is the exploitation.

wtfm8lol
15th April 2007, 20:38
of course i&#39;m not ok with socialism. i was arguing against this:

The capitalist doesn&#39;t perform any labor in the production sphere and thus cannot be exploited.

i consider the process of management to be a part of the production sphere, as physical production cannot take place without it. whether workers manage themselves better than they are managed by managers is another argument, which i don&#39;t feel like going in to at the moment, but will go in to if someone makes me.

Rawthentic
15th April 2007, 20:42
whether workers manage themselves better than they are managed by managers is another argument,
You&#39;re retarded. There is no argument here.

The only reason there is management under capitalist society is so that the boss can make sure that he is extracting as much profit as he can, and this requires for the workers to be kept on check.

In socialism, management is done by the workers themselves and for their needs, not the profit of a parasite.

wtfm8lol
15th April 2007, 20:52
no, the reason there is management is to make sure that the means of production are used as efficiently as possible. to clear up any confusion, efficiency here means producing the largest number of any product at as little a cost as possible, and involves making sure there is somewhere for the product to go.

Rawthentic
15th April 2007, 20:56
Yeah, the product goes into the hands of the capitalist, for his profit.

And efficiency is beneficial to the capitalists&#39; gain, not ours.

But great way of masking your language to hide the inherent exploitation in capitalist production.

wtfm8lol
15th April 2007, 21:07
Yeah, the product goes into the hands of the capitalist, for his profit.

the product is his throughout the whole process. the raw materials are his, and the tools and machines are his. the worker never owns the product. he merely adds to the value of the raw materials, and is paid for this.


And efficiency is beneficial to the capitalists&#39; gain, not ours.

efficiency is beneficial to the capitalists and to the workers. if the workers produce more, they can be paid more, and if efficiency increases in the macro-economy, the worker can obtain more products and use more services.

Rawthentic
15th April 2007, 21:11
efficiency is beneficial to the capitalists and to the workers. if the workers produce more, they can be paid more, and if efficiency increases in the macro-economy, the worker can obtain more products and use more services.

All this simply centralizes wealth in the leeches&#39; hands.

These better services are the crumbs of what we create, and what they let us have.

wtfm8lol
15th April 2007, 22:14
All this simply centralizes wealth in the leeches&#39; hands.

and simply increases the standard of living for the working class.

JazzRemington
15th April 2007, 22:23
Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 01:01 pm
i dont see why we&#39;re arguing about this. i&#39;m claiming that management is a necessary part of the production process, and you&#39;re not denying that. you&#39;re claiming that management doesn&#39;t physically produce anything, and i&#39;m not denying that. rather i&#39;m saying that what you claim doesn&#39;t matter.
The point is that if the capitalist doesn&#39;t labor, but only provides capital or manages his capital, then how can surplus value be extracted from him?

colonelguppy
15th April 2007, 23:05
Originally posted by JazzRemington+April 15, 2007 12:18 pm--> (JazzRemington @ April 15, 2007 12:18 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 11:24 am

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 10:12 pm

[email protected] 14, 2007 09:42 pm
management in some form is absolutely essential to the production of some good (or the distribution of some service). you cannot separate the two, as they rely on each other. management is just as much a part of the overall production process as physically making the product.
But management produces nothing itself.
but it is necessary in order for anything to be produced, so your statement doesn&#39;t matter at all.
So, your logic is that if it&#39;s necessary, then it&#39;s produces something? If you remove management from its context, it doesn&#39;t produce anything. And don&#39;t tell me I&#39;m ignoring dynamics because mainstream economic textbooks do what I just did all the time. [/b]
i would say it produces synergy, which is just another component necessary in stages of production.

JazzRemington
15th April 2007, 23:12
Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 05:05 pm
i would say it produces synergy, which is just another component necessary in stages of production.
Only the people actually performing the labor could produce synergy. The point of management is not to cooperate in the productive aspects of a firm but to manage it (i.e. tell the workers what to do, how to do it, etc.). Hence the term management.

colonelguppy
15th April 2007, 23:17
Originally posted by JazzRemington+April 15, 2007 05:12 pm--> (JazzRemington @ April 15, 2007 05:12 pm)
[email protected] 15, 2007 05:05 pm
i would say it produces synergy, which is just another component necessary in stages of production.
Only the people actually performing the labor could produce synergy. The point of management is not to cooperate in the productive aspects of a firm but to manage it (i.e. tell the workers what to do, how to do it, etc.). Hence the term management. [/b]
yeah. they organize the workers and the other components of production inorder to increase their productivity. i.e. create synergy....

JazzRemington
16th April 2007, 00:02
Synergy is created by the actors who are cooperating. Not by the person who makes them cooperate or oversees their cooperation.

wowsa
16th April 2007, 05:17
Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 09:23 pm

The point is that if the capitalist doesn&#39;t labor, but only provides capital or manages his capital, then how can surplus value be extracted from him?
You extract surplus value from the capitalist by taking his capital. More precisely, you take his capital and give him in return something that was worth less than his capital.

wowsa
16th April 2007, 05:27
Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 11:02 pm
Synergy is created by the actors who are cooperating. Not by the person who makes them cooperate or oversees their cooperation.
And do you think actors spontaneously organize and cooperate among themselves without a person to put the whole show together?

It&#39;s bizarre that some in this thread are unwilling to give managers any credit whatsoever for creating any value. It&#39;s as if they think managers only exploit, period.

That&#39;s contrary to reality. Being a good manager is indeed a skill that some have and some don&#39;t. Good, value-adding management is not just something that any idiot with capital can do and commence to exploit the real geniuses. If you&#39;ve ever had a crappy boss and a good boss, you know this. You realize how even with the most hard working, talented team, crappy management turns the whole operation into shit.

KC
16th April 2007, 05:34
Uh, surplus value is only created by productive labour. Since management isn&#39;t productive labour, it doesn&#39;t create surplus value.

colonelguppy
16th April 2007, 07:34
Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 06:02 pm
Synergy is created by the actors who are cooperating. Not by the person who makes them cooperate or oversees their cooperation.
synergy is the effect of the combination of factors which each multiply the effects of the other(s) rather than merely adding to them (text book definition, search google). without management, this effect is singificantly reduced, thus i think it&#39;s fair to say that managers create synergy.


Uh, surplus value is only created by productive labour. Since management isn&#39;t productive labour, it doesn&#39;t create surplus value.

ok, but the effects of management increase production more so than there would be without it, so it shouldn&#39;t be discounted.

KC
16th April 2007, 07:51
ok, but the effects of management increase production more so than there would be without it, so it shouldn&#39;t be discounted.

Management is unproductive labour. The effects that it has on the production process is irrelevant because the fact that it is unproductive labour means that it creates no surplus value.

Red Tung
16th April 2007, 08:16
no, the reason there is management is to make sure that the means of production are used as efficiently as possible.

Minimize costs and maximize returns. Basic business studies 101 stuff, but what is left out is minimize costs for whom in relation to what? Maximize returns for whom and in relation to what? This is never answered, but assuming those who take business courses aspire to control a business one day (otherwise why would they even bother taking an interest in studying business?) then making the assumption that costs and profits will be optimized for those having a ownership share of the business is reasonable. The question then is labour wages part of those in control of the business or is it a cost that the owners intend to minimize? I think the answer is obvious.


to clear up any confusion, efficiency here means producing the largest number of any product at as little a cost as possible, and involves making sure there is somewhere for the product to go.

Wow, environmental degradation and labour exploitation at the same time&#33; Capitalism is really progressive isn&#39;t it? <_<

Why produce for more than you need only to throw it away if it doesn&#39;t sell? Note, thrown away if it doesn&#39;t sell which is different than throwing away after everybody&#39;s needs are met which seldoms happen because labour itself is a commodity under Capitalism, so if you are potentially productive if employed so as to allow you an income to pay for what was produced, this itself becomes irrelevant if Capitalists deem your labour unnecessary for maximizing their profits.

Further, why would there not be a place for the products to go? People all have things they want to buy to fulfill their consumer desires are you assuming that people will suddenly become ascetic monks after the revolution? :lol:

colonelguppy
16th April 2007, 08:35
Originally posted by Zampanò@April 16, 2007 01:51 am

ok, but the effects of management increase production more so than there would be without it, so it shouldn&#39;t be discounted.

Management is unproductive labour. The effects that it has on the production process is irrelevant because the fact that it is unproductive labour means that it creates no surplus value.
unproductive labor? wtf? management can have a huge effect on levels of production and the quality of goods and services rendered, if more goods and services of higher quality are produced, than it means that management has created more wealth than would be in their absence.

JazzRemington
16th April 2007, 13:27
synergy is the effect of the combination of factors which each multiply the effects of the other(s) rather than merely adding to them (text book definition, search google). without management, this effect is singificantly reduced, thus i think it&#39;s fair to say that managers create synergy.

There&#39;s no emperical evidence to support the assertion that without management there is greatly reduced synergy and that only a separate and independent management function can create synergy. And dont&#39; pull the "well, if we didn&#39;t have someone manage production this or this will happen" card.

Besides, how can we know that its synergy that is created, which caused an increase in productivity? There&#39;s no way we can measure a level of synergy except by the end result, which is no asserance that synergy existed in the first place. By this logic, I can say that I create magical energy when I put several kids together to make a model out of toy blocks and this magical energy resulted in them building the model more effeciently and that the magical energy exists because they built their model more effeciently than others and that without the magical energy they wouldn&#39;t have been able to create the model as effeciently.

What&#39;s wrong with just saying that they cooperated and got better results?

Like I said, management, abstracted out of context, produces nothing in the productive sphere.

ZX3
16th April 2007, 14:18
Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 12:10 pm

Flint was the type of town one can expect being far more common in a socialist community- a community dependent almost entirely upon one industry.

That Flint somehow fits a socialist model has nothing to do with the fact that your model of limited risk is completely wrong and counter to some 100 years of sociological research.


But the odds are the workers will NOT be as willing to take the risk in either new production, new methods of production ect. as the individual capitalist might and does.

So, what you&#39;re saying is that under socialism a worker would risk everything and in capitalism a capitalist risks everything. But yet a capitalist takes the risk, and the worker wouldn&#39;t?
The worker is NOT an individual unit in the socialist community. He or she is but one cog in the mass. What matters is not whether one individual worker might be willing to take a risk, its whether the majority of the workers in the community is willing to take that risk. In the socialist community, it means the entire community is placed at risk, even those who voted against the proposal. Are the odds the same that compassionate decent socialist community would place at risk the entire community on a new, untried idea, as the odds that a capitalist might do the same? The capitalist removes the risk from the community and places it upon his or her shoulder.

Flint was a one industry town, all its eggs were in one baske,t so to speak.

KC
16th April 2007, 14:58
unproductive labor? wtf? management can have a huge effect on levels of production and the quality of goods and services rendered, if more goods and services of higher quality are produced, than it means that management has created more wealth than would be in their absence.

Management is unproductive labour because it doesn&#39;t produce anything.

JazzRemington
16th April 2007, 15:06
The worker is NOT an individual unit in the socialist community. He or she is but one cog in the mass. What matters is not whether one individual worker might be willing to take a risk, its whether the majority of the workers in the community is willing to take that risk. In the socialist community, it means the entire community is placed at risk, even those who voted against the proposal. Are the odds the same that compassionate decent socialist community would place at risk the entire community on a new, untried idea, as the odds that a capitalist might do the same? The capitalist removes the risk from the community and places it upon his or her shoulder.

Again, this ignores dynamics. The market does not isolate damages caused by a firm going out of business. The actions of one firm can affect other firms and even the community that the firm operates in. Like I&#39;ve always said, the idea that a capitalist is the only one at risk if a firm goes under is counter to 100+ years of sociological research.

But in terms of odds of trying new technology, there&#39;s no signifigent difference. According to Social Psychology, a group&#39;s disposition to risk-taking behavior and risk-avoiding behavior is proportional to the behavior that the individuals within the group have. For example, if the individuals within the group are even mildly risk-taking, odds are that as a group they will be larger risk-takers. The converse is also true. Being in a group magnifies individual behavior. What this means is that if a group isn&#39;t risk-taking, then that means the individuals within the group themselves aren&#39;t risk takers.

Hell, there&#39;s even risks that individual capitalists won&#39;t take.


Flint was a one industry town, all its eggs were in one baske,t so to speak.

Having all of one&#39;s eggs in a basket does not count as socialism. You&#39;re just playing semantic games in order to hide the fact the example of Flint is evidence that your fanciful assertion that the capitalist is the only one that bares the risk is wrong.

wtfm8lol
16th April 2007, 17:18
The question then is labour wages part of those in control of the business or is it a cost that the owners intend to minimize?

asserting that since laborers must sell their labor, the employers have total control over their wages is as erroneous as asserting that since firms must sell products, buyers have total control over prices.


Further, why would there not be a place for the products to go? People all have things they want to buy to fulfill their consumer desires are you assuming that people will suddenly become ascetic monks after the revolution?

what? i was only saying that managers make sure someone (generally a retail store) is going to buy the product made by the workers.

colonelguppy
16th April 2007, 19:14
Originally posted by Zampanò@April 16, 2007 08:58 am

unproductive labor? wtf? management can have a huge effect on levels of production and the quality of goods and services rendered, if more goods and services of higher quality are produced, than it means that management has created more wealth than would be in their absence.

Management is unproductive labour because it doesn&#39;t produce anything.
ok if your just going to parrot the same shit over and over and ignore everything i said, than theres not much point to this.

KC
16th April 2007, 19:21
ok if your just going to parrot the same shit over and over and ignore everything i said, than theres not much point to this.


Your entire point that management has a "huge effect on levels of production and the quality of goods and services rendered" is completely irrelevant because the fact is that management is unproductive labour. Only productive labour creates surplus value. Management can&#39;t create surplus value because it&#39;s not productive labour. That&#39;s a simple fact. My whole point is that your argument is irrelevant.

pusher robot
16th April 2007, 19:39
Originally posted by Zampanò@April 16, 2007 06:21 pm


ok if your just going to parrot the same shit over and over and ignore everything i said, than theres not much point to this.


Your entire point that management has a "huge effect on levels of production and the quality of goods and services rendered" is completely irrelevant because the fact is that management is unproductive labour. Only productive labour creates surplus value. Management can&#39;t create surplus value because it&#39;s not productive labour. That&#39;s a simple fact. My whole point is that your argument is irrelevant.
I&#39;m not clear on this concept of "productive" vs. "unproductive".

Consider a factory.

Clearly, the assembly line workers are productive - they are actively producing the product.

What about the machine operators? What about the guy who fixes the machines when they break? The guy who maintains the computers for the guy who fixes the machines? The guy who cleans the toilets of the guy who maintains the computers for the guy who fixes the machines? The guy who writes out the paychecks for the guy who cleans the toilets for the guy who maintains the computers for the guy who fixes the machines? The cafeteria cook who makes lunch for the guy who writes out the paychecks for the guy who cleans the toilets for the guy who maintains the computers for the guy who fixes the machines?

I don&#39;t suppose you meant physical labor only; what about the person who answers the phones? The person who arranges vacation schedules? The person who handles technical support requests? The person who writes the instruction manual? The person who drives the truck? The person who locates the needed resources? The person who locates customers? The person who prepares reports of the production that has occurred? The union representitve?

None of these people are managers. None of them are involved in directly producing the product, but the factory could not operate without them. Do you claim that none of these people are engaged in productive labor, and if so, what are the implications of that? Is the janitor exploiting the assembly-worker?

t_wolves_fan
16th April 2007, 20:16
Granted some managers are useless, but do any of you actually know what managers do?

wtfm8lol
16th April 2007, 20:22
Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 02:16 pm
Granted some managers are useless, but do any of you actually know what managers do?
theyre evil capitalist pig-dogs who enslave the workers and beat them with wooden paddles when they misbehave and steal their money when they&#39;re not looking?

colonelguppy
16th April 2007, 20:22
Originally posted by Zampanò@April 16, 2007 01:21 pm


ok if your just going to parrot the same shit over and over and ignore everything i said, than theres not much point to this.


Your entire point that management has a "huge effect on levels of production and the quality of goods and services rendered" is completely irrelevant because the fact is that management is unproductive labour. Only productive labour creates surplus value. Management can&#39;t create surplus value because it&#39;s not productive labour. That&#39;s a simple fact. My whole point is that your argument is irrelevant.
if management can increase the value of a final product, then what exactly is it doing if not creating more value?

Rawthentic
17th April 2007, 03:55
theyre evil capitalist pig-dogs who enslave the workers and beat them with wooden paddles when they misbehave and steal their money when they&#39;re not looking?

No imbecile, they&#39;re petty-bourgeois. And their main class role is that of keeping check on the workers to make sure that they are doing their job and making dough for the capitalist.

RebelDog
17th April 2007, 05:11
Originally posted by wtfm8lol+April 16, 2007 07:22 pm--> (wtfm8lol @ April 16, 2007 07:22 pm)
[email protected] 16, 2007 02:16 pm
Granted some managers are useless, but do any of you actually know what managers do?
theyre evil capitalist pig-dogs who enslave the workers and beat them with wooden paddles when they misbehave and steal their money when they&#39;re not looking? [/b]
In a round-about way you have finally made something that can be crudely described as a &#39;true statement&#39;. Congratulations.

wtfm8lol
17th April 2007, 05:26
Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 09:55 pm

theyre evil capitalist pig-dogs who enslave the workers and beat them with wooden paddles when they misbehave and steal their money when they&#39;re not looking?

No imbecile, they&#39;re petty-bourgeois. And their main class role is that of keeping check on the workers to make sure that they are doing their job and making dough for the capitalist.
and why shouldn&#39;t they make sure the workers are doing their job? an unproductive worker harms society, as he puts little in and takes a lot out. how do you propose workers should be kept in check? do you really expect their co-workers, who are generally their friends, to vote to demote or remove lazy workers? what a joke. i see that rapidly becoming a popularity contest..unless of course communism makes everyone able to forget about their personal friendships when it comes time to check everyone. or perhaps there won&#39;t be any lazy workers because you will sprinkle fairy dust all over them, which will fill them with the communist spirit.

ZX3
18th April 2007, 12:12
Originally posted by wtfm8lol+April 16, 2007 11:26 pm--> (wtfm8lol @ April 16, 2007 11:26 pm)
[email protected] 16, 2007 09:55 pm

theyre evil capitalist pig-dogs who enslave the workers and beat them with wooden paddles when they misbehave and steal their money when they&#39;re not looking?

No imbecile, they&#39;re petty-bourgeois. And their main class role is that of keeping check on the workers to make sure that they are doing their job and making dough for the capitalist.
and why shouldn&#39;t they make sure the workers are doing their job? an unproductive worker harms society, as he puts little in and takes a lot out. how do you propose workers should be kept in check? do you really expect their co-workers, who are generally their friends, to vote to demote or remove lazy workers? what a joke. i see that rapidly becoming a popularity contest..unless of course communism makes everyone able to forget about their personal friendships when it comes time to check everyone. or perhaps there won&#39;t be any lazy workers because you will sprinkle fairy dust all over them, which will fill them with the communist spirit. [/b]
No, he or she thinks people will just "do what is right" ("right" being defined by hastalavictoria). No other reason need be given.

I am coming to T-Wolves conclusion: Pure Candyland.

KC
18th April 2007, 17:06
I&#39;m not clear on this concept of "productive" vs. "unproductive".

Productive Labour (http://marxists.org/glossary/terms/p/r.htm#productive-labour)


Granted some managers are useless, but do any of you actually know what managers do?

They manage...


if management can increase the value of a final product, then what exactly is it doing if not creating more value?

Listen, only through productive labour is value created. Telling someone to work faster or reorganizing the factory floor or granting bonuses to those who work harder and produce more isn&#39;t productive labour because it&#39;s not producing anything. The manager might tell someone to work harder, but the rate of value creation isn&#39;t increased until the worker actually does it.


and why shouldn&#39;t they make sure the workers are doing their job? an unproductive worker harms society, as he puts little in and takes a lot out. how do you propose workers should be kept in check? do you really expect their co-workers, who are generally their friends, to vote to demote or remove lazy workers? what a joke. i see that rapidly becoming a popularity contest..unless of course communism makes everyone able to forget about their personal friendships when it comes time to check everyone. or perhaps there won&#39;t be any lazy workers because you will sprinkle fairy dust all over them, which will fill them with the communist spirit.

I don&#39;t see it happening any other way in a capitalist society. But then again, that&#39;s why we&#39;re communists. ;)

colonelguppy
18th April 2007, 17:18
Originally posted by Zampanò@April 18, 2007 11:06 am

if management can increase the value of a final product, then what exactly is it doing if not creating more value?

Listen, only through productive labour is value created. Telling someone to work faster or reorganizing the factory floor or granting bonuses to those who work harder and produce more isn&#39;t productive labour because it&#39;s not producing anything. The manager might tell someone to work harder, but the rate of value creation isn&#39;t increased until the worker actually does it.
it&#39;s a little more complicated than telling the worker to produce faster, it takes skill and knowledge that not everyone has. so while the workers may implement the ideas of management, it would not happen the same without the guidence. so, the worth of management should not be discounted.

wtfm8lol
18th April 2007, 17:22
Listen, only through productive labour is value created. Telling someone to work faster or reorganizing the factory floor or granting bonuses to those who work harder and produce more isn&#39;t productive labour because it&#39;s not producing anything. The manager might tell someone to work harder, but the rate of value creation isn&#39;t increased until the worker actually does it.

you&#39;ve demonstrated that you don&#39;t know what managers do, so your argument is invalid.


I don&#39;t see it happening any other way in a capitalist society. But then again, that&#39;s why we&#39;re communists. wink.gif

in a capitalist society, the manager is personally hurt (economically) by a lazy worker, so he generally has no trouble firing him, and if he does have a problem firing him, the managers superiors will have no problem getting rid of the unproductive worker and perhaps the manager who can&#39;t do his job. problem solved.

KC
18th April 2007, 17:25
it&#39;s a little more complicated than telling the worker to produce faster, it takes skill and knowledge that not everyone has.

I know, I was just using that as an arbitrary example.


so while the workers may implement the ideas of management, it would not happen the same without the guidence. so, the worth of management should not be discounted.

Ugh. You don&#39;t get it. I&#39;m just going to keep repeating myself. Value is only created through the process of productive labour. The moment that value is created is when raw materials are turned into the finished product. That&#39;s how value is created. Nothing else goes into that new value besides the productive labour of the product. The "worth of management" isn&#39;t being discounted because it has absolutely nothing to do with the productive labour.


you&#39;ve demonstrated that you don&#39;t know what managers do, so your argument is invalid.

I know what managers do, I was just being an ass. Besides, that&#39;s completely irrelevant to my assertion.


in a capitalist society, the manager is personally hurt (economically) by a lazy worker, so he generally has no trouble firing him, and if he does have a problem firing him, the managers superiors will have no problem getting rid of the unproductive worker and perhaps the manager who can&#39;t do his job. problem solved.


In a capitalist society that&#39;s how it works, yes.

wtfm8lol
18th April 2007, 17:29
In a capitalist society that&#39;s how it works, yes.

ok, now that that&#39;s behind us, tell me how you hope it will work in a communist society.

colonelguppy
18th April 2007, 17:36
Originally posted by Zampanò@April 18, 2007 11:25 am

it&#39;s a little more complicated than telling the worker to produce faster, it takes skill and knowledge that not everyone has.

I know, I was just using that as an arbitrary example.


so while the workers may implement the ideas of management, it would not happen the same without the guidence. so, the worth of management should not be discounted.

Ugh. You don&#39;t get it. I&#39;m just going to keep repeating myself. Value is only created through the process of productive labour. The moment that value is created is when raw materials are turned into the finished product. That&#39;s how value is created. Nothing else goes into that new value besides the productive labour of the product. The "worth of management" isn&#39;t being discounted because it has absolutely nothing to do with the productive labour.
ok, but characterizing them as "unproductive" is misleading to anyone who doesn&#39;t know obscure communist labor theory. so obviously you have a broader point to make about management, otherwise theres no reason to be so persistent about semantics.

KC
18th April 2007, 17:53
ok, now that that&#39;s behind us, tell me how you hope it will work in a communist society.

That&#39;s completely irrelevant to this thread.


ok, but characterizing them as "unproductive" is misleading to anyone who doesn&#39;t know obscure communist labor theory. so obviously you have a broader point to make about management, otherwise theres no reason to be so persistent about semantics.

My point is that management doesn&#39;t create value. That&#39;s my point.

wtfm8lol
18th April 2007, 18:04
That&#39;s completely irrelevant to this thread.

who cares? do you want me to make another?

KC
18th April 2007, 18:09
who cares? do you want me to make another?

If you want then go ahead.