I am Trostkyist, why you aren't yet? :D - about trostkysm (e

[Pere Jordi]

hi everybody. i am from southamerica and my english is POOR, i hope i can expess myself in the good way.

as you maybe know, they are a sustancial diference between trostkyism and stalinism, but, the trostkysm have a few vertients... i know what means trostkyism in Bolivia because a am here and i know about the "bad" reputation of european trostkyist.

here, the POR (Revolutionary Workers Party) is the representant of this ideology (POR is a part of CERCI, Fourth INternational reconstruction enlace Comitee) and here we have a "precepts" about what have to do an real revolutionary organization... as you know, marxist have a method, and with this methos we must recognized our reality to try to change.

the recognizement of our national characteristics are necesary to choose our fight method... ¿european marxist and trostkyist are, right now, doing this? maybe can you epxlain to me the european trostkyist and marxist situation?

i am not support neo.stalinist partys (euro-communist, social-democracy) but, as i dont know european reality i can take an good opinion yet.

i hope you can understand me, i'll try to be better in the future!! :D

[Palmares]

I congratulate you on your effort comrade, however I offer little to your query. I am a Trotskyist and Marxist, but I do call myself communist. I am aware of the stigma which is linked to the term, but my emphasis is on unity. All communists should unite, and I wish also to include other leftist parties. Nevertheless, Stalinists are out of consideration, they are the 'bourgeois communists'.

Thank you

[Marxman]

Trotskyism is a branch that survived and carried on the ideas and practice of Leninism/Marxism. It's the same.

Stalinists, however, slandered and desecrated Trotskyism completely with blatant lies. They were considered as fascists in the time of WWII and before. Luckily the movement despite the tremendous pressure from both Stalinists and cappies survived! Like Trotsky said:"Truth always survives."

[Pere Jordi]

Hi! before thanks for your replyes.

well, i am so glad to know people who thinks like me (i think thats cool).

well, when i read you message Cthentar, i see a part a little strange heheh

you said about union, i think thast a good point, but we must be careful about "our coyuntural comrades"...

all we have the same objetive... anarchists, trostkyist, etc etc we want a new society.. waths the difference? i think the answer is THE METHOD. as you can see, that's a very important part of any organization, ¿how can we unify our methods?

here in Bolivia, the parlamentarist way is the wrong way, but another "leftists" partyes considerate this...

i dont know if you can understand what i am trying to explain :(

but, we can not unconsiderate the possibility of an union, an antifascist block, but we must considerate pro and contras...

just remember the civil war in spain, the enemy was the fascists, but all the comunist will fight against himselfs...

that point was the most important to talk about when the common enemy is in the "gates of the city"...

as you said, stalinism have his own translation of marxism, they choose his own method, how can we fight togheters? sometimes they was reactionaries!! thay abandon spanish militians in civil war, they abandon che guevaras's guerrila in Bolivia... i dont know what to think about them...

well, as you ca si, i think the methos is the most important thing in an organization, this method you can take from your national analisis of reality...

ok, i see you soon friends! :P

[Marxman]

We must unite to fight against the burgeois might!

The distinction between our methods shall soon diminish as we shall learn, evolve and teach more and more masses. Marx predicted the learning of the people and he also said that the people must be left out to learn alone, no stopping from mistakes is needed.

[Pere Jordi]

i can understand your point, when the fascists bullets are around our heads :D

but, in the political discussion, in our own activity we must "destroy" sistematicly the other ideological possitions.

remember the phrase: "tell me who is your friend, and i tell you what you are"

but i can recognize, we can not be lineal. and i agree with your words, mistakes are the most better teacher for masses... but remember, if you can preview a mistake, you win a lot of time in the construccion of a new society..

salute!

[Revolution Hero]

Mic Check. Ha, ha!

You asked why I was not Trotskyst.

I am not trotskyist , because I am TRUE communist!

[Pere Jordi]

what that means? "true" marxist?

hehehe

can't you explain yourself?

[redjordi]

Trotsky's main contributions to revolutionary Marxism were on the one hand his theory of Permanent Revolution (fully accepted by Lenin in 1917 in his April Theses) and particularly his struggle against the rise of the Stalinist bureaucracy.

Even the Leopold Trepper, the leader of thefamous Communist anti-Nazi spy network in Western Europe had to recognise:

"But who did protest at the time? Who rose up to voice his outrage? TheTrotskyites can lay claim to this honour. Following the example of their leader, who wasrewarded for his obstinacy with the end of an ice-axe, they fought Stalinism to the death,and they were the only ones who did.

"Today, the Trotskyites have a right to accuse those who once howled along withthe wolves. Let them not forget, however, that they had the enormous advantage over us ofhaving a coherent political system capable of replacing Stalinism. They had something tocling to in the midst of their profound distress at seeing the revolution betrayed. Theydid not 'confess', for they knew that their confession would serve neither the party norsocialism."

On the other hand in my opinion is also true that many that claimed to be Trotskyists after the death of Trotsky distorted Trotsky's real ideas (people like Mandel, Pablo, Healy, Lambert, Cliff, Lora, Moreno, etc). They fell into all sorts of sectarianism and opportunism, adapting themselves to the dominant ideas of the day (Keynesianism, studentism, guerrillaism, Titoism, Third Worldism, Feminism etc).

For me the real continuators of the genuine ideas of Trotsky is the international Marxist tendency represented by In Defence of Marxism http://www.marxist.com. For a detailed history of Trotskyism after Trotsky's assassination I recommend comrades to read:

History of British Trotskyism
http://www.marxist.com/hbt/

Ted Grant's works
http://www.tedgrant.org

For more detailed info on Trotsky's life and ideas:

http://www.trotsky.net

comradely,

redjordi

[redjordi]

Trotsky's main contributions to revolutionary Marxism were on the one hand his theory of Permanent Revolution (fully accepted by Lenin in 1917 in his April Theses) and particularly his struggle against the rise of the Stalinist bureaucracy.

Even the Leopold Trepper, the leader of thefamous Communist anti-Nazi spy network in Western Europe had to recognise:

"But who did protest at the time? Who rose up to voice his outrage? TheTrotskyites can lay claim to this honour. Following the example of their leader, who wasrewarded for his obstinacy with the end of an ice-axe, they fought Stalinism to the death,and they were the only ones who did.

"Today, the Trotskyites have a right to accuse those who once howled along withthe wolves. Let them not forget, however, that they had the enormous advantage over us ofhaving a coherent political system capable of replacing Stalinism. They had something tocling to in the midst of their profound distress at seeing the revolution betrayed. Theydid not 'confess', for they knew that their confession would serve neither the party norsocialism."

On the other hand in my opinion is also true that many that claimed to be Trotskyists after the death of Trotsky distorted Trotsky's real ideas (people like Mandel, Pablo, Healy, Lambert, Cliff, Lora, Moreno, etc). They fell into all sorts of sectarianism and opportunism, adapting themselves to the dominant ideas of the day (Keynesianism, studentism, guerrillaism, Titoism, Third Worldism, Feminism etc).

For me the real continuators of the genuine ideas of Trotsky is the international Marxist tendency represented by In Defence of Marxism http://www.marxist.com. For a detailed history of Trotskyism after Trotsky's assassination I recommend comrades to read:

History of British Trotskyism
http://www.marxist.com/hbt/

Ted Grant's works
http://www.tedgrant.org

For more detailed info on Trotsky's life and ideas:

http://www.trotsky.net

comradely,

redjordi

[Marxman]

James Cannon, who was a leader of the American Trotskyists, was also a kind of a traitor in the latter movement. Of course, there were many others and the point is to learn about the real ideas of Trotskyism without being drawn into discrepancies.

WWII's Trotskyites were huge and they fought a lot and for many years, and yet no media wants to mention the brave Trotskyites anywhere, even though they were the REAL fighters against fascism.

By the way, Jordi, Revolution Hero on this forum needs teaching, so please bare patience with his Stalinist slanders.

[Pere Jordi]

"On the other hand in my opinion is also true that many that claimed to be Trotskyists after the death of Trotsky distorted Trotsky's real ideas (people like Mandel, Pablo, Healy, Lambert, Cliff, Lora, Moreno, etc). They fell into all sorts of sectarianism and opportunism, adapting themselves to the dominant ideas of the day (Keynesianism, studentism, guerrillaism, Titoism, Third Worldism, Feminism etc)."

i am not agrre with your oppinion, may be you are too... static?

just remember, trostky was killed in 1940, what happens in our world in the '60 '70 '80 ?

He can not think about al the future situations, nad about every national particularity...

as i dont know about all you cited in your "black list", i just know about the Lora's trostkyist party here in Bolivia (i am in a paralel organization inside the unib}versity) i am interested in you facts against bolivian trostkyis party (POR).

Maybe i nedd remember you the long and rich history (60 years) of trostkyst struggle here against our fascists and stalinist comrades...

i need to see you i am not a part of this party, i was just interested in universitarie organization called URUS.

as you can see, information about another trostkyist tendencies is welcome.

i think, our revolutionary organization must considerate all the points as possible in his program with his previous analisis of national reality using the marxist method.

National particularities define your strugle method. we can fail in this national definition, but all revolutionary organization can fail, but the self-criticism is important.

pleasde explain yourself about this points, i am interested!! :D

(i dont know if you speak spanish, but i have some troubles with this language to exprese my self some times)

adeu, ja ens veurem.
)

[Cassius Clay]

''WWII's Trotskyites were huge and they fought a lot and for many years, and yet no media wants to mention the brave Trotskyites anywhere, even though they were the REAL fighters against fascism.''

Ha, ha, ha. Yeah and Alexander the Great played a crucial role in mankind's attempt's at space travel. The 'real' fighters who beat the Nazis, Fascists and Japanese Imperialists were the workers and peasants led by true Marxist-Leninist parties. With some help from Churchill and U$ Capital.

As Enver Hoxha once said the partisans in Albania died with the cry of 'Za Stalina' on their lips. The brave Jews who rose up in the Warsaw Ghetto were led by Marxists who wholeharditly supported Stalin. In 1944 the Japenese had twice as many divisions fighting Mao's partisans then were fighting American marines (although I honour a American soldier who gave his life fighting Fascism as much as a Soviet one but it appears you don't honour either) in the home islands. In Western Europe Communist parties led the resistance efforts which played a crucial role in dissrupting Germany's war machine. In the Balkans hundreds of Italian and German divisions were tied down fighting partisans, who weren't no Trotskyites. In Italy it was the Communists who risked their lifes fighting for their freedom.

And ofcourse there is the Soviet Union led by Stalin who killed 8 out of every 10 Fascist soldiers who died in the war and who in the end liberated Europe from the Nazis.

Yes there are others who deserve credit, Churchill for all his faults played a great role in 1940 and American power and lend lease helped alot but I don't see no Trotskyites.

But let me guess if Trotsky hadn't of died then we would of seen vast partisan armies calling for 'Permanent Revolution' tying down hundreds of crack Nazi divisions. While evil Stalin along with his fellow Capatalists (ofcourse they can't admit it that would mean a end to their conspiracy to crush the true workers and peasants led by the Trotskyites) Chruchill and Rossevelt meet at Yalta and order their respective media's to wipe out any news of the gallant Trotskyite warriors who are really responsible for the defeat of Hitler.

Oh know silly me, that's what your saying anyway.

[Marxman]

US imperialists helped the proletarians beat the fascists?! These words come from an illiterate mind.

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from Marxman on 5:10 am on Oct. 24, 2002
By the way, Jordi, Revolution Hero on this forum needs teaching, so please bare patience with his Stalinist slanders.


Your problem is that you consider Trotsky your main teacher, without paying attention to the fact that he was typical traitor and opportunist. Unlike you, I understand the regressive and reactionary essence of his theory.
I do study Marxist- Leninist literature and I don't need "teaching" on this forum.

[genniva]

Here in Europe, we've got lefties in all shades from pinkish to bloody . . . but this link (http://www.red-encyclopedia.org/nelf.html) lists the major league. You can decide for yourself.

See, some of us even have homepages in English!;)

[Man of the Cause]

Cassius Clay, your stalinism is well known in these forums and I do not judge you for your beliefs, because I support the rights for every socialists to believe what they want ( unlike Papa Stalin). Here is a couple of arguments which you propably hear everyday. First of all your sympathy for Enver Hoxa's partisans is good, but I think the true "heroes of socialism" were north of there. Yes, the Yugoslavians, which ALONE chased away the German & Italian Fascist armies, and then when Stalin's "liberation" army came to the borders of Yugoslavia, Tito said: "Njet Tovarich Stalin, you shall not pass" Of course, after that the socialism of Yugoslavia was from a horses ass. I got a nice little story about Tito for you. Did you know that, when Tito was in Soviet Union as a member Komintern he had to kill his own wife(not by own hands, but to give her to Stalins camps) to show his loyalty to Stalin. Of course, you might think, she was propably anti-Soviet like Tito, but here's an interesting fact: Every high-ranked member of Komintern had some one in their family locked up in jail or in camps. Of course most these high-ranked members were locked in camps couple of years later. I do agree that stalinists did a lot in destroing the fascists in WW2, but what did they do before the WW2? Frankly, they helped to fight against Franco in the Spanish Civil war. Of course, they were able kill lots of evil Trotskyist-Nazis and "relocate" (re:steal) the Republican treasury. What other anti-Fascist crusades did they do? Hmm.. They signed the non-agression pact with the valiant and anti-Nazi goverment of Germany and they killed evil traitor-killer-saboteur-nazi-Fascist-spy-Anti-Christ-Priest of Satan-gay-jew-nerd-Satan-menshevik-anarchist-Queen of Persia, Trotsky.

[Man of the Cause]

Testing...123 123

[Cassius Clay]

''Cassius Clay, your stalinism is well known in these forums and I do not judge you for your beliefs,''

LOL, is it really, there's no such thing as 'Stalinism' but still if you insist.

''because I support the rights for every socialists to believe what they want ( unlike Papa Stalin).''

Alexander Kollantai, Maxim Gorky, Pavlov. They all criticised Stalin and put across opposing ideas, as did Trotsky (which was his right) until he resorted to terriorism, assaination and subversion.

''Here is a couple of arguments which you propably hear everyday. First of all your sympathy for Enver Hoxa's partisans is good,''

Ah you see we can agree on some things.

''but I think the true "heroes of socialism" were north of there. Yes, the Yugoslavians, which ALONE chased away the German & Italian Fascist armies, and then when Stalin's "liberation" army came to the borders of Yugoslavia, Tito said: "Njet Tovarich Stalin, you shall not pass" ''

No doubt about that, but Stalin never intended to annex Yugoslavia, if that were the case he would of simply invaded in 1948. Stalin actually offered to withdraw all forces from GDR in the early 1950's as long as U$ Capital did the same. If you check out the figures for Red Army troops in Eastern Europe (all of these nations had invaded SU, don't forget) then you will see it is tiny compared to later numbers under say Brezheve.

''Of course, after that the socialism of Yugoslavia was from a horses ass.''

A men to that. 1.6 million unemployed by 1985, thousands of Communists killed in concentration camps in the late 40's. And people think Tito was some sought of nice socialist.

''I got a nice little story about Tito for you. Did you know that, when Tito was in Soviet Union as a member Komintern he had to kill his own wife(not by own hands, but to give her to Stalins camps) to show his loyalty to Stalin.''

Oh my God I didn't, please quote reliable source for this.

''Of course, you might think, she was propably anti-Soviet like Tito, but here's an interesting fact: Every high-ranked member of Komintern had some one in their family locked up in jail or in camps. Of course most these high-ranked members were locked in camps couple of years later.''

Wow that's quite incredible, source for this. Even if it's true Hitler's brother in law was a MI6 spy, it's not impossible.

''I do agree that stalinists did a lot in destroing the fascists in WW2, but what did they do before the WW2? Frankly, they helped to fight against Franco in the Spanish Civil war. Of course, they were able kill lots of evil Trotskyist-Nazis and "relocate" (re:steal) the Republican treasury. What other anti-Fascist crusades did they do? Hmm.. They signed the non-agression pact with the valiant and anti-Nazi goverment of Germany and they killed evil traitor-killer-saboteur-nazi-Fascist-spy-Anti-Christ-Priest of Satan-gay-jew-nerd-Satan-menshevik-anarchist-Queen of Persia, Trotsky.''

After calling for a 'United Anti-Fascist front' for years.

BTW Marxman, since this thread I posted a very nice article on what your 'Real fighters against Fascism' did in WW2. Collobarating with Japanese Fascists in WW2 in slaughtering Chinese peasants. But ofcourse those filthy Stalinists deserved it.

[Man of the Cause]

The information was mostly from russian Edvar Radzinski's book of Stalin, which was made from the files of GRU, NKVD and other previously secret files. Although you can smell from the first pages of the book that Radzinski had personal things against Stalin("Stalin destroyed my fathers life!", there is lots of interesting facts in the book.

[Pere Jordi]

Hi everybody!!!

I think you are evaluating trostkism wrongly...

I think trostki do great contributions, and in this times I can se He was reason with his analisis of stalinism...

I see the actual european situation and I can see the stalinist and social democratics parties... what are they doing?? they are building revolution??? NO. They are in his buffettes, in his parliaments, doing ridiculous reforms or doing nothing. NOTHING.

Thats the better way? tHe trostkist principle of recognizement of national reality is, right now, very important to choose the better method.

Now, when leftist partyes are losing his "militants" we need reconsidere our work...

start again, recognize your reality and, then, you are in the correct way to build the revolution in your country.

see you later, friends and comrades!!

[redstar2000]

To answer the question you began this thread with, I'm NOT a Trotskyist because, first of all, I'm NOT a Leninist. Trotskyists and Stalinists both lay claim to being the real heir of Lenin...and as far as I'm concerned, they're BOTH right.

I think ANY party, regardless of its good intentions, that operates on the basis of "democratic centralism" is DOOMED to recreate the kind of narrow dictatorship that existed in the USSR, the PRC, etc...the kind that ends up restoring capitalism.

Comrade Pere Jordi, I'd like to ask you what kind of revolution you would like to make in your country? Would you really like to see a "fresh" version of the USSR there? Is there any point to all the sacrifice that revolution requires if all you end up getting is just a new capitalist class?

I hope you'll give the matter some thought, comrade. Revolution is not for the faint-of-heart...but it's a tragedy if everything goes for NOTHING.

[Pere Jordi]

Hello, comrade redstar.

first, I 'll say to you I have some words in your message I dont understand very well... and I hope you can excuse if I dont explain my self very good.

You said you are not a leninist... well, I respect your opinion about that. But I think you must considerate the leninist contributions to the marxist theory. As you know, Marx is the theoric, and Lenin apply his teory in the russian experience.
Thats the reason why I think this experience and lenin's contribution we can recognize as an important thing.

But lenin dies too soon, and he can not develope his theoryes (and the others marxists theories, just remember, lenin was not the only revolutionary ;D).

When he dies, Stalin take the power. Trostky takes the opossition, and you know the history...

Well, that's my reason because I am (or I try to be) a trostkyist.

I can understand wath you said. Stalin can have his good ideas, but we, the marxist, must considerate the results of all the stalinist process (just look the ex USSR). Maybe stalin haved good tactics, but the important is not the tactic. The real importance is the consecution of our strategic target, the worldwide revolution.

We can learn about stalinist experience and mistakes too. we MUST learn about it.

The democratic centralism is a necesary fact in the organization, but we must remember... the democratic discussion inside our organization must be objetive and without personal hates. If we do it, we have a reasonable instrument, because we need stay togheter, act in one only front against our enemyes.

We must bring a strong response to the actual problems, and we can get this with the democratic centralism. I think I am not enplain me goos in this point...

You ask to me about the particular revolution in my country. Well, I think the revolution is obteined with the correct method. How can choose correctly this method??

The only answer is: Recognized our national reality and our own particular characteristics as nation, we can choose the better method to build the revolution.

Thats a general response.
About my country (Bolivia) we have recognized his particular characteristics. We recognized Bolivia as an retarded capitalist state, with combinated economy (capitalist and feudalist). We don't considerate the method of guerrilla and/or terrorism. We are working on the construction of an strong workers party, who leads the minoritary worker class and incorporate the indigenist (majoritary) reinvindications. We need an indigenist-workers alliance to detsroy the actual economic sistem. We dont believe (in the Bolivian particularity) in parliamentarism. We considerate the Direct Action as the better method to our struggle.

well, thats a fast view about our situation here.. i hope you accept this. We must try to learn about before experiences, and we must to do as well as possible. We can fail, but thats not the last chance. We have the future to win :D

The victory of our revolution is based in the international support. Thats why we considerate VERY IMPORTANT the construction of an international workers party. Re.build the fourth international.

see you later!!!