Revolution

[( R )evolution]

I am having trouble imagining a successful revolution in America. Lets look at the situation, most workers are happy because they are feed and live in a realitvely high scale of living compared to the rest of the worlds workers. In order for revolution occur, the workers need to become educated and discontented. How would we be able to create this? Even if there is a great discontent agmonst the workers by a economic depressions or dip the cappies will just give the workers some bones as occurred in the The Great Depression. I know all we need is a spark but the workers in America are just so brain washed into the cappie way of thinking it would be horrible hard for them to reverse there ways and educated themselves about communism. I fully believe in the system of communism but defeating the grip that America has on workers is just so strong that I can not imagine a successful worker revolution. Does any have anything to say that may hopefully reserve my thinking. Thank you

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Wait for the next big market breakdown, which WILL happen within this century. All we can do right now is educate and, for those of us in the vanguard, stay there in that position.

The big market breakdown will occur due to some disease (thanks to globalization and mass movements of "human capital" from country to country), inter-bloc war (oil, fresh water, etc.), AND the increasingly volatile consumer (negative savings rates, more debt, etc.) that can't keep developed economies growing forever without a breakdown.

As for revolution in the US, Latin America should be the mid-wife first.

[( R )evolution]

But if there is a market crash the bourgeois will just do what it did in the The Great Depression, they will just give the workers some more benefits to keep them content. How do you expect the workers in America to just break all of the propaganda that has been throwin down there throats? How would the revolutionary units be able to fight against such a full fledging power.

[manic expression]

Originally posted by ( R )[email protected] 11, 2007 04:06 am
But if there is a market crash the bourgeois will just do what it did in the The Great Depression, they will just give the workers some more benefits to keep them content. How do you expect the workers in America to just break all of the propaganda that has been throwin down there throats? How would the revolutionary units be able to fight against such a full fledging power.
The New Deal ran out of steam REAL fast. FDR had to stop funding programs and unemployment and other statistics stayed stagnant. It was only the onset of WWII that saved the capitalist economy in the US.

That being said, it's unclear what would've happened had the US stayed in a depression.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Originally posted by ( R )[email protected] 11, 2007 04:06 am
But if there is a market crash the bourgeois will just do what it did in the The Great Depression, they will just give the workers some more benefits to keep them content. How do you expect the workers in America to just break all of the propaganda that has been throwin down there throats? How would the revolutionary units be able to fight against such a full fledging power.
Not really - last time failed because of a not-so-globalized world (and the war that saved the New Deal, as the poster above mentioned). This time, there's a globalized world coupled with increased scarcity of resources. Or are you expecting something along the lines of a capitalist 1984?

In the increased globalized environment, ESPECIALLY with the Internet, one should more easily stand up to the "patriotic" pro-war establishments and encourage the dismantling of the decaying system.

[( R )evolution]

Yes, some where along the line of a capitalist 1984. But now I realize. That the economic system of capitalism will def have another economic depression and the world as hammer pointed out is a much more globliazed and economically connected society. And the reforms that the cappie's try to give out during the economic downfall aint gonna do shit. I now am starting to see it again

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Glad to be of help.

[Robo the Hobo]

This probably will sound like treason against the revolution to many of you, but I will post my views anyway.....

The american workers will never accept a communist party in the short term, but they could be made to accept one wich was socialist (in name) but would pave the way for a communist party to take it's place once people had become better educated. I would considder this to be the only real course of action in most western countries, mainly because their will not be a workers revolution in the richer western cultures. That is a better course of action for south american countries (as someone so well mentioned) and other poorer countries.

Americans wont accept a communist party in name in the short term.

But they could accept the things that need doing to pave the way for a communist state.

please retain oppen minds to my views :(

[Raúl Duke]

Their are communists organizations that don't have communism in their names:

Like the Free People's Movement.

There are also Anarchists organizations....

I understand your views and slightly agree; people, specifically in the US, aren't "ready" for anything related to communist since the word itself has become demonized.

[Tower of Bebel]

Currently the USA suffers from anti-communist and anti-socialist propaganda. It seems unlikely for any communist party to gain public support, but remember materialism!
The mind is formed by material conditions like our economy. Nowadays there's no social or economic crisis and therefore people think they do not need a 'better wolrd', a 'socialist' or 'communist party'; and anti-socialist propaganda strengthens these feelings. But once people are confronted with economical and social problems many people will start to ignore State propaganda because the State does not come up with a solution to solve the problems and therefore it cannot be trusted. Then a socialist or communist party can have support, as it comes up with a solution and because the State loses public support, nobody believes its anti-socialist propaganda.

[Whitten]

Revolution cant occur in the first world first, a serie sof revolutions in the third world are required to break down the benefits of imperialism in order for the material conditions favouring revolution to occur.

[Lenin II]

We must evolve our collective consciousness to accept that we must embrace each other or continue in our downward spiral in which a minority consumes the majority of the resources and the minority tries to scrape by on leftovers and charity. Will we ever recover from the stigma of failed and misguided Communist and Socialist regimes? Can we dismiss an entire philosophy because it was not as easy to implement or maintain as our current default? Should we simply accept a capitalist world that is increasingly hostile to any variation or any other philosophies?
Only through education, discussion and open debate can we hope to improve or replace the current systems. I believe that without a fundamental change in our basic philosophies a revolution will never succeed.

[Issaiah1332]

We must evolve our collective consciousness


Wow, that sounded Jungian! :lol:

[Raúl Duke]

Instead of Freudo-Marxism; we can develop Jungian-Marxism :)

I somewhat agree with Whitten (not 100% though...I mean revolutions are spontaneous). If the US or some major country suffered from a defeat in an imperialistic war there could be major changes in the "Collective Conscious" in the 1rst world. At least one is desperately needed for the US that is.

[Janus]

I am having trouble imagining a successful revolution in America.
So do many others atm.


Lets look at the situation, most workers are happy because they are feed and live in a realitvely high scale of living compared to the rest of the worlds workers.
Yes, but conditions are also worsening as well.


In order for revolution occur, the workers need to become educated and discontented. How would we be able to create this?
Well, most workers are educated these days so our main job would be agitation.


Even if there is a great discontent agmonst the workers by a economic depressions or dip the cappies will just give the workers some bones as occurred in the The Great Depression. I know all we need is a spark but the workers in America are just so brain washed into the cappie way of thinking it would be horrible hard for them to reverse there ways and educated themselves about communism.
Yes, that is one problem but I think this semblance of peace will dissolve should capitalism face any major problems in the future.

[Demogorgon]

Remember a few things:

Firstly revolutions can take many forms. They can come from a sudden collapse of the current system, a violent push to overthrow it, a slower change or even due to external pressure.

Secondly America probably won't be the first place a revolution happens. Frustrating for American Comrades I know, but if I were to wager on where things will start it probably won't be America, but when things do start happening, the whole world, America included will come along in the wake.

Thirdly, you don't need to use the word Communist or Socialist or whatever. America has a distaste for those words, one that I am glad we don't really have here. However the words aren't the important thing, it is the ideas they represent that are. And people are much more accepting of them than you think once they get past the label.

Finally and most importantly. No change ever happens when people don't do anything to bring it about. Get out there, agitate, apply pressure and you may start to see results. Get enough people doing it and you will definitely see results. And if the powers that be try to stop you, that's a good sign, it means you a starting to have an effect. So that is the way change will happen. Carpe Diem.

[bezdomni]

Wait for third world countries to go socialist, and watch what happens to the US when there is no cheap labor to exploit.

The US lives far beyond its own productive capabilities. American Capitalism is completely dependent upon imperialism.

[The Grey Blur]

Although I semi-agree with you SP I'd have to insist that there are no 3rd world countries; there is just the one capitalist world. We should all struggle right now to the best of our abilities, to organise and educate the working-class, regardless of the unfavourable conditions we may have to endure.

R, there are many complications and contradictions within America society. I believe it has the largest ratio of millionaires yet at the same time nearly a fifth of the nation is living in poverty. Ask yourself if such disparity can continue. It cannot; the anarchy of the capitalist market must topple in on itself eventually. If we orientate ourselves to the masses of worker's now we can capitalise on these crises of capitalism in the future.

Also, a "labour aristocracy" exists in America, a layer of workers who have been bought off by the bourgeois through the profits of Imperialism. This frustrates the efforts of revolutionaries who look to organise the working-class towards revolution.

I recommend this article by Leon Trotsky: If America Should Go Communist (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1935/1935-ame.htm)

Keep up the struggle.

[bezdomni]

Oh, shit. I was way too vague. I was just asking to be misinterpreted! haha.

Of course I don't mean "just sit around and wait for the oppressed countries to revolt". Communists in advanced imperialist contries should go out to the masses and organize...but realistically, revolution in the United States is very unlikely until finance capital is worthless.

By "third world" countries, I mean countries that are exploited by foreign bourgeoisie.

Man, I don't want to sound like a menshevik. :P

I've read that Trotsky pamphlet. It's alright.

Have you read Imperialism:The Highest Stage of Capitalism?

[The Grey Blur]

Sorry if you though I was mis-interpreting you.

And yeah, I've read Imperialism. That's why I highlighted the Labour Aristocracy.

[More Fire for the People]

I am having trouble imagining a successful revolution in America. Lets look at the situation, most workers are happy because they are feed and live in a realitvely high scale of living compared to the rest of the worlds workers.
Do you live in an all white neighbourhood? Most Black, Latino, and Native American workers live in such a miserable state that they often fall out of the working class into the ranks of the lumpenproletariat. Those that tend to 'make it', which for some is a high school diploma and work as a mechanic, constantly face the barrage of racism.

White workers are discontented with their position as well but the media and the bosses tell them that the fault is of Latinos [ even documented Latino workers ]. Rural white workers who have little contact with non-Latino minority workers dismiss Blacks as dumb and lazy and Native Americans as drunkards and mystics.


In order for revolution occur, the workers need to become educated and discontented.
Workers are discontented and education is an ambigious term. What do we mean by education? Education in letters? Well, it is a chilling fact, but a lot of our Black, Latino, and Native American comrades are barely literate or illiterate in the English language. If you mean political education, for what purpose? Workers already 'know' how to form their own organisations — blocs, councils, unions, clubs, etc. — without our help. Yet they don't quite give these organisations the content that would lead to the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.


How would we be able to create this?
By two methods:
(1) Through informal education of the people through mass activism and dialogue in the vernacular [ hint: people think you're a prick when you call them 'proletarians' all the time ]. This means going out to the places where workers normally assemble for political or everyday life discussions: workplaces, union meetings, bars, socials, protests, coffee shops, the 7-11, and so on.

(2) Through 'formal' education of the people through recruitment of teachers into the movement. Through critical education and careful examination of the meaning of democracy, freedom, justice, action, and other values in a historical and contemporary context.


Even if there is a great discontent agmonst the workers by a economic depressions or dip the cappies will just give the workers some bones as occurred in the The Great Depression.
After the New Deal programs most workers were still in a miserable state. They weren't starving anymore but they still faced the threat of starvation and unemployment. Most people don't want scraps, they want the full course meal. What happened during the Great Depression though was that the hitherto center of working class politics, the trade union, became a part of the capitalist order. The White House adopted a facade of working class politics in order to subdue actual working class politics.


I know all we need is a spark but the workers in America are just so brain washed into the cappie way of thinking it would be horrible hard for them to reverse there ways and educated themselves about communism.
First of all, speak in the vernacular! Use terms like 'democracy', 'freedom', 'justice', and 'equality'.

Ask people 'Is america a democracy?' and when they answer [ most likely yes ] say 'Well the Greeks invented the word as a way to describe a government where everybody participated in making decisions' then ask them 'Have you ever really participated in making a political decision?'

I think it's also key to remember that workers are more disillusioned in themselves and the world more than they are dilluded. There is a deep sense of nihilism within the working class — a belief that action is meaningless and that we should just resign to our fate of perpetual darkness. The communist does not emancipate the worker, the communist unleashes the creativity within the worker so that the worker may emancipate his or herself. Only creativity can overcome this deep sense of nihilism and destructive self-image.

Edit: on the question of where revolution should occur I think you're misunderstanding revolution. Revolution isn't a first or third world phenomenon, it's a class phenomeon. In the industrial and post-industrial context it is the working class who has the most gain and th least to lose by revolution but in the colonial and neo-colonial context it's the peasantry and lumpenproletariat that occupy that position. Industrial and post-industrial workers already have the productive means for sociaism because the capitalist have already socialized the means of production. In the 'third world' the industrial and post-industrial sectors are minute when compared to the mass peasantry sector.

The first and third world have the same revolutionary potential but for the third world their is a more intense need for finding employment for the lumpenproletariat, collectivising the peasantry's land plots, industrialising the means of production, and expanding the power of workers' organisations.

[Issaiah1332]

"R, there are many complications and contradictions within America society. I believe it has the largest ratio of millionaires yet at the same time nearly a fifth of the nation is living in poverty. Ask yourself if such disparity can continue. It cannot; the anarchy of the capitalist market must topple in on itself eventually. If we orientate ourselves to the masses of worker's now we can capitalise on these crises of capitalism in the future."

I def. agree.