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Marxman
5th October 2002, 10:16
Why didn't Trotsky take power?

Quite a few writers have raised the question: "Why didn't Trotsky use his position, especially his authority in the Red Army, to seize power at the time?" In a recent book, The Ideas of Leon Trotsky, edited by H. Ticktin and M. Cox, we find the following assessment: "Trotsky has been attacked on the grounds that he was no politician. As we have argued above, there is an element of truth in the chargeÉ The second charge against Trotsky is that he misunderstood the nature of the new regime under Stalin. This and the charge that he was no politician are linked in that it would have been his duty to have taken power from Stalin, if he had understood the nature of the counter-revolution that was to occurÉ he failed to understand the true nature of the beast in the crucial years when he could have prevented its rise." (H. Ticktin and M. Cox, The Ideas of Leon Trotsky, pp. 13-6.)

The whole episode is here reduced to the struggle of individuals and their particular qualities. These arguments are mere echoes of the arguments of the historians E.H. Carr, Richard B. Day, Moshe Lewin and Isaac Deutscher, who also saw the struggle largely in terms of personalities. Carr claims that Trotsky "failed to the last to understand that the issue of the struggle was determined not by the availability of arguments but by the control and manipulation of the levers of power. Later he argues: "He had no stomach for a fight whose character bewildered and eluded him. When attacked, he retreated from the arena because he instinctively felt that retreat offered him the best chance of survival." (E. H. Carr, Socialism in One Country, Vol. 2, p. 43.) Moshe Lewin again makes a similar criticism: "He [Trotsky] also had the weakness of a man who was too haughty and, in a sense, too idealistic to indulge in the political machinations inside the small group of leaders. His position as an outsider, on account of his past and his style, prevented him from acting when the moment came - for him, it only came once - with the necessary determination." (M. Lewin, Lenin's Last Struggle, p. 140.)

The fact is that the struggle was not an issue of personal power, of Trotsky versus Stalin, but a struggle of living forces. Those who argue that Trotsky only had to use the Red Army to take power display a complete lack of understanding of the nature of power itself. Power is not a product of the will of individual "great men", as Nietzsche and others imagined, anticipating the ideology of Fascism. It is a reflection of the balance of forces between the classes in society. To use the army as a political force inevitably leads directly to Bonapartism. That is ABC for a Marxist. Bonapartism can only exist in certain conditions, normally when the contending classes in society are deadlocked. This creates conditions where the state apparatus lifts itself above society and acquires a certain degree of independence. Trotsky, just as Lenin before him, always placed his hopes in the working class. The workers sympathised with the positions of the Opposition, but were too exhausted and disappointed to do anything about it. They remained passive. The veteran Yugoslav Communist and Oppositionist Ante Ciliga, who was in Russia in the mid-1920s, comments on the mood of the workers at this time:

"The impression that these meetings and private conversations left on me was favourable, on the whole; but I was struck by the passive attitude of many of the workers. One felt that they had neither interest nor enthusiasm, but on the contrary a frigidity of manner, an exaggerated reticence. It was depressing. The workers seemed to say by their silence: it is all very well but what does it mean to us? One had to pester each person to get a word out of him." (A. Ciliga, The Russian Enigma, p. 21.)

As Trotsky explained in one of his last writings: "On the side of the Opposition was the youth and a considerable portion of the rank and file; but on the side of Stalin and the Central Committee were first of all the specially trained and disciplined politicians who were most closely connected with the political machine of the general secretary. My illness and my consequent non-participation in the struggle was, I grant, a factor of some importance; however, its importance should not be exaggerated. In the final reckoning it was a mere episode. All-important was the fact that the workers were tired. Those who supported the Opposition were not spurred on by a hope for great and serious changes. On the other hand the bureaucracy fought with extraordinary ferocity."

Passive support and sympathy was not enough to prevent the advance of the bureaucracy. Of course, a victory of the revolution in, say, China, would have completely transformed the situation, reviving the spirits of the Russian workers, and halting the bureaucratic counter-revolution in its tracks. But instead of victories there only came news of defeats, as a direct consequence of the policies of the Stalin-Bukharin leadership.

Ticktin and Cox state that: "We have to suspect that Trotsky at first was not prepared to lead. Later, of course, he refused to take power. He was the leader of the Red Army, and in 1924 Antonov-Ovseenko, chief political commissar of the Red Army, actually proposed that Trotsky take over." (Ticktin and Cox, op. cit., p. 13.) This is typical of the superficial approach to history which reduces it to a struggle of individual personalities. In general, if you ask the right question you stand a good chance of getting the right answer. If you ask the wrong question you will invariably get the wrong answer. Messers Ticktin and Cox do not even know what question to ask in the first place, and therefore end in a mess. The Left Opposition were not Bonapartists but revolutionary Marxists. That being so, they could not look to the military for solutions to the problem. They based themselves on the working class - not for sentimental or arbitrary reasons, but because only the working class can bring about the socialist transformation of society. To base oneself on any other class or social group may achieve a change in society, but never in the direction of a healthy workers' state.

People like Ticktin and Cox imagine themselves to be superior to Trotsky, who, they imply, was either too stupid or too cowardly to take power, whereas Stalin, one must assume, was more intelligent and more courageous. These "wise" academics write glibly about "the question of power" and at the same time show that they do not have the slightest idea of what power is. Trotsky explained that "power is not a prize which the most 'skillful' win. Power is a relationship between individuals, in the last analysis between classes". (Trotsky, Writings 1935-36, p. 177.)

In the absence of the active participation of the workers, there were indeed conditions for Bonapartism in Russia. But the use of the military in politics is not a thing that can be disposed of like putting a sword placed back into its sheaf. To rely upon the Red Army to take power would have resulted, in the given conditions, not in the prevention of the political counter-revolution but, on the contrary, in enormously accelerating it. The sole difference would be that instead of a civilian bureaucracy, the military caste would be in power. The fact that Trotsky was at the head would have meant nothing. Either he would do the bidding of the officer caste (which was naturally ruled out), or he would be removed and replaced with someone who would. At that stage, the movement towards reaction had not yet acquired a definitive character. The bureaucracy was still feeling its way. Stalin's cautious policy reflected this fact. A military coup would have led very quickly to the consolidation of proletarian Bonapartism. The faces would have been different, but the essence the same. The whole process of degeneration would have been enormously speeded up. That is all.

Kez
5th October 2002, 10:54
after stalin fooled trotsky of lenins funeral, trotskty was too late to attend it and therefore bad press

fuckin stalin

Cassius Clay
5th October 2002, 11:26
Why didn't Trotsky take power? Probably because after three years debate on policy and issues Trotsky and the united opposition got just 6000 votes out of 725,000 votes cast. The simple fact is the party elected Stalin and Trotsky's ideas and theories were laughed at.

TavareeshKamo, about Lenin's funeral. 'Stalin fooled Trotsky' Trotsky is on vacation (ah poor Leon having done nothing for years decides to take a holiday). The man could not be bothered to turn up, as simple as that. Are we to beleive that Trotsky had no other means of finding out the date of the funeral (he supposedly just takes Stalin's word for it, yet for years he would call on the world not trust Stalin)? You know fully well that Trotsky could of ordered a special train and got to Moscow, but he didn't.

Finally Stalin did NOT lie, he told Trotsky that the funeral was on the Saturday because that was when it was supposed to be held. But because of the number of people who wished to see Lenin's body it was delayed until the Sunday. Note that thousands managed to make it and find out the correct date, yet Trotsky (a gov't minister) supposedly didn't.

Kez
5th October 2002, 11:58
damnit,
got me there

*leaves to do some research*

Semeno

Cassius Clay
5th October 2002, 12:24
Are you being sarcastic? That's great if you have accepted the facts to what happened but usually people tend to put up a bit more of a fight than that. Oh well.

I suppose all I can say is that I like you sig.

Marxman
5th October 2002, 16:21
It's no fiction that Stalin fooled Trotksy. Of course he did, Stalin knew Lenin's marxist plans will destroy Stalin's chance to be a great bueracrat. Stalin knew what Trotsky is and he knew how to dispose him. Stalin's clique was working day and night, editing and slandering Trotsky with the fullest effort.

Stalin really spat on Lenin's grave when he gave a speech at this funeral. He suddenly abolished all ideas of internationalism and suddenly came to form stalinism and his never happening "socialism in one country."

But the horrors of Stalin's forced collectivisation is something totally undprecedented and the consequences are still visible in Russia. Fucking Stalin, I hope he burns in reincarnation.

Cassius Clay
5th October 2002, 18:01
''It's no fiction that Stalin fooled Trotksy. Of course he did,''

Right, your refusal to see the basic facts is quite amazing.

''Stalin knew Lenin's marxist plans will destroy Stalin's chance to be a great bueracrat. Stalin knew what Trotsky is and he knew how to dispose him. Stalin's clique was working day and night, editing and slandering Trotsky with the fullest effort.''

Ha you call Stalin a bueracrat. Trotsky was the bueracrat, the man created such a heirachy in the Red Army that one foriegn obersever noted 'That there was hardly a difference between the Red Army and the old Imperial Army'. And he didn't mean in terms of fighting cabability he was talking about the way the officers (numerous 'Special privalages' and much higher wages) behaved and discipline and customs.

Trotsky took a former Tsar's palace to live in for god's sake while Stalin simply lived in a small dacha (and if you have seen it you will see it is not a place of luxury).

You say that Stalin worked day and night to fight against Trotsky. But even Trotsky admits that Stalin allways welcomed Leon warmly and with respect to politburo meetings. But let me guess this was part of a evil master plan. Only when Trotsky and his supporters resorted to physical violence was the man finally expelled from the party. Stalin showed incredible patience with Trotsky threw it all back in his face.

''Stalin really spat on Lenin's grave when he gave a speech at this funeral. He suddenly abolished all ideas of internationalism and suddenly came to form stalinism and his never happening "socialism in one country."

'Socialism in one Country' had been the accepted policy of Soviet government since 1920. If Trotsky had had his way then half-starved peasants would of been cannon fodder for his half baked scheme 'Permanent Revolution' and far from liberating anybody it would of been Imperialism at it's worse and knowing Trotsky (what with his Military discipline in factories) it would of been accept new government or else.

Some Workers paradise.

''But the horrors of Stalin's forced collectivisation is something totally undprecedented and the consequences are still visible in Russia. Fucking Stalin, I hope he burns in reincarnation.''

You sound like Jospeh Goebbels.

Marxman
6th October 2002, 00:35
You bore me. Stalinists like you bore me as they share their thoughts with only oneselves.

Socialism in one country since 1920?! Yeah, do you know that George Bush Jr. was born on Io, the moon of Jupiter? Do you know that Tzar Nicholas II was a big sympathiser for the Bolsheviks?

So, you're saying that Lenin affirmed "socialism in one country" nonsense. A total nonsense, read some books or at least my posts where me and Revolution Hero tend to argue about just that.

If anyone believes socialism in one country can exist, then he is no marxist.

Ymir
6th October 2002, 01:00
bah Marxism!

http://www.thephora.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=25754

redstar2000
6th October 2002, 04:17
When Stalinists and Trotskyists mix it up, only the brave or the foolish would try and get between them. Sounds like a job for Redstar2000!

For, of course, there is justice on both sides. Both of these comrades fought for communism to the best of their abilities. Both achieved brilliant successes and both were guilty of gross blunders.

And both inspire passions long after the events of their lives are dust. No small achievement that!

Marxman's critique of the historians is unarguably correct. It most certainly was not a matter of Stalin's "wisdom" or Trotsky's "cowardice".

But I think some better explanations are called for than simple "fatigue" on the part of Russian workers. Malaise might, in any event, be a better word than fatigue.

First, let's dispose of the "Red Army" scenario; by the time Trotsky went into open opposition to Stalin, the Red Army was no longer in Trotsky's hands, right? When did Trotsky step down from being chief of the Red Army, 1922? 1923? Something like that. Unless I'm badly off on these dates, the "Red Army scenario" is a non-starter.

And in 1922? Trotsky's prestige was enormous; Stalin was hardly known outside party circles. I imagine Trotsky never thought he would NEED the Red Army against Stalin...it would be overkill.

What were the circumstances and characteristics of the Russian working class in, say 1926-27?

We know that something like 10 million died in the civil war with Czarist forces after the October Revolution. We surmise that many of those who died were, as one person put it, "the best elements of the working class"--that is, the most class conscious, the most communist.

We also know that after the civil war, many more of the best workers left the factories altogether...to become administrators (or, if you prefer, bureaucrats) in the offices of the new Soviet government and/or the party.

When industrial production was more or less restored by the mid-1920s, those "lost" workers had to be replaced. Where did they come from? From the little villages surrounding the industrial cities, of course. Even before the October revolution, there was a tradition of peasants going to work in the factories between growing seasons.
This was simply accelerated and made more permanent. But these folks were not really "workers" in a Marxist, class-conscious way yet; their mind-sets were probably still more peasant than worker. And I shouldn't need to remind you that the "normal" state of mind of a peasant is deference to authority.

Is it all that hard to figure out how such folks would react to a debate between supporters of Stalin and supporters of Trotsky? Particularly, if Stalin-supporters were already in positions of authority at that particular workplace.

And, I'm afraid, there is a rather sordid footnote to this situation. In places where the vote was apt to be "close", it is likely that a whispering campaign took place...one based on the deep-rooted anti-semitism in Russian culture. Tell a Russian peasant recently turned worker that Trotsky is a jew...and Joe just picked up another vote.

But there's more. Most Russian workers had been workers before the revolution, after all, or were the sons and daughters of workers. Neither deference to authority nor anti-semitism would mean jack to them. Almost!

Because by the mid-1920s it was more or less commonly understood that political debate/struggle was a matter for the "great ones". There was vigorous debate in the Russian press in the 1920s...but I think most workers understood that they would have no part in deciding the outcome. It's easy for me to understand why they felt "fatigued"; I have the same feeling during any election campaign in a capitalist country.

And still further: what kind of real alternative did Trotsky and his adherents offer the Russian working class? Trotsky DID have a reputation for being ultra-authoritarian--perhaps stemming from his proposal during the civil war to draft railroad workers into the army and then shoot some for being late to work.(!) Stalin, on the other hand, probably had a reputation (THEN) for being stable, reliable, not given to grandiose schemes. If you were a Russian worker in that period, how would you vote?

I can remember, years ago, reading a "Program of the Left Opposition" (Trotsky's group)...but the details have long since passed out of my mind. But I am guessing that Trotsky had very little to offer the Russian workers that would inspire them to overcome their "fatigue". If all that's really at stake is whose picture tops the charts--and if a Stalin supporter is already boss at your plant--are you really going out on that limb to support the guy who's not in power? Some would. Some did. Most didn't.

It seems to me that the key to what happened between Stalin and Trotsky (And much else!), was the 10th party congress in 1921. It was at that congress that Trotsky, Stalin and a majority of the voting delegates adopted Lenin's proposal to prohibit organized factions within the Bolshevik party---a measure primarily directed against the "Workers Opposition" group led by Alexanda Kollontai and the metal workers union. (The workers opposition group did have a real alternative to all that happened afterwards: political and economic power should be placed in the hands of the trade unions!)

Consequently, once Stalin had the mechanisms of the party firmly under control (1924? 1925?), neither Trotsky nor anyone else had any "legitimate" ground upon which to stand, from which to launch any organized opposition.
You might get a critical article or two published in the press as late as 1930 or 1931 (if you were a "big name" in the history of the revolution)...but real, effective opposition? That battle was lost all the way back in 1921. A very sad story.

If I'm still around after our revolution, I will vote to name streets after both of them (and ALL the other great names of revolutionary history); but I think it is regrettable that after all these years folks are still fighting (with real passion) battles whose very names are already drifting into the mists of history.

It's as if you went to some kind of lefty meeting and saw a Greek communist and an Iranian communist come to blows...over the outcome of the battle of Marathon.

Marxman
6th October 2002, 18:06
There's a big difference between marxists and stalinist. Marxists fight for the socialist revolution, stalinists fight to quench it.

Ymir
7th October 2002, 02:36
Did I not already, "bah marxism"?

peaccenicked
7th October 2002, 04:57
''People like Ticktin and Cox imagine themselves to be superior to Trotsky, who, they imply, was either too stupid or too cowardly to take power, whereas Stalin, one must assume, was more intelligent and more courageous. These "wise" academics write glibly about "the question of power" and at the same time show that they do not have the slightest idea of what power is. Trotsky explained that "power is not a prize which the most 'skillful' win. Power is a relationship between individuals, in the last analysis between classes". (Trotsky, Writings 1935-36, p. 177.)

Stalin represented the bureaucracy and Trotsky represented the revolutionary workers. He might have been both a bit stupid and a bit cowardly at the time.
Although I cannot see that implication. Trotsky's failure was because of the balance of class forces, but one cannot take subjectivity out of the process and if he took the early warning signs earlier. He might have achieved more.
To let Trotsky slip by uncritically would be irresponsible for any historian, academic or not.

Marxman
7th October 2002, 16:58
Of course, everyone should be handed over to criticism. It's totally marxist to criticise even a leftist.

Malvinas Argentinas
8th October 2002, 02:01
I am going to analyse each one separately:

Trotsky:

+ was the natural succesor of Lenin Brilliant commander of the army

+Lenin left a testamennt persuading that trotsky should his succesor

-Communist leaders in the politburo envied him. Trotsky´s brilliance played against him

-This testament didnt become public, they feared that Leon became another Napoleon.

-Wanted to abandon Lenins New Economic Policy, brought him unpopularity

- Policy: FIrst achieve WOrld revolution

Stalin:
+Lenins advice of removing him was ignored
+Politburo underesimated him
+Built his ´cult of personality´ when was general secretary in 1922
+Supported Bukharin(NEP supporter) to isolate Trotsky
+Policy: Socialism in one country, that is to say put Russia to be an exmple for the rest of the country, this brouqght him popularity among the russians

Stalin became undisputed leader in 1929:
.First he got rid of Trotsky being in the side of Bukharin
.Then he used Trotsky´s arguments to get rid from Bukharin!

Marxman
8th October 2002, 20:52
Just one thing. The personality cult wasn't developed in 1922!