Why are people on the left anti-Israel?

[graffic]

EDIT: Why does the left demonize Israel?

[Demogorgon]

Because of the apartheid in Israel and because of their oppression of the Palestinians whose land they continue to occupy.

[Enragé]

we dont "demonize" israel

we're stating facts

The state of Israel is currently occupying Palestine and is oppressing an entire people.

and no israel is not a fascist state, at least not in the context of what fascism actually means

[Sir Aunty Christ]

It's not really about opposition to Israel rather than opposition to Israel's policy towards the Palestinians. Take the wall for example. This is deliberately enclosing the Palestinians within the West Bank and encroaching on Palestinian farmland.

Within the state of Israel, Palestinians are treated as second class citizens and land the Palestinians legally held after the 1947 Partition plan was illegally seized by Israel in 1967.

But you knew that, didn't you?


I don't think Israel is facist state any more than the U.K or France,

I don't see the Scots or Welsh being treated as second class citizens, do you? France has it's own problems regarding race.

And for the record, I don't think Israel is fascist.

[graffic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 04:15 pm
we dont "demonize" israel

we're stating facts

The state of Israel is currently occupying Palestine and is oppressing an entire people.

and no israel is not a fascist state, at least not in the context of what fascism actually means
What about the Jews though?

I used to have a view similar view to yours yet after long debates with my uncle (who is Jewish and very Pro Israel), and alot of reading of history and research i discovered that the Jews have been on self-defense mode throughout history, and even until now. From Babylonians, Assyrians, Amorites, Philistines ..... always in self defense mode. During my trip to Israel i witnessed palestinians stoning a Jewish bus in Qiryat Arba'a. The Jews took the stones without a single word of anger. Quietly entered the bus.

Its a myth that Palestines are underdogs, its not an Israel-Palestinian war but an Arab-Islamofacist war against Israel. Take a look at the size of Israel compared to its surrounding countrys.

Palestine and its cause is hardly a secular one either, it is far from being multi-ethnic or multi-religious. The Palestine charter is calling for an Arab state (with no Jews allowed) and Islam as the official state religion. Why are no Jews allowed to exist in this state? I had thought we are living in a world of tolerance (which is the sole aim of most people on the left, right?). Not so in the Arab world with a culture that has a short fuse. Arafat was always kissing Sheikh Yassin for his own survival. He knew that if he diverted too much from the main line of Islamism that he would die.

[seraphim]

Because the US and it's 'allies' say they want to stop the prolliferation of Nuclear, Chemical, and Biological weapons in the Middle East. Which they say destabalises the entire region. The country with the largest stocks of said weapons in that oh so sensetive regional area, 'Our Survey Says'.......................................... ISRAEL.

[Enragé]

What about the Jews though?

I used to have a view similar view to yours yet after long debates with my uncle (who is Jewish and very Pro Israel), and alot of reading of history and research i discovered that the Jews have been on self-defense mode throughout history, and even until now. From Babylonians, Assyrians, Amorites, Philistines ..... always in self defense mode. During my trip to Israel i witnessed palestinians stoning a Jewish bus in Qiryat Arba'a. The Jews took the stones without a single word of anger. Quietly entered the bus.


just because they had a hard time in the past (or better put, their ancestors) doesnt give them the right to treat people like shit today.

And about that last thing
i'd shut up too if i knew the people stoning the bus i was in were right.


Its a myth that Palestines are underdogs, its not an Israel-Palestinian war but an Arab-Islamofacist war against Israel. Take a look at the size of Israel compared to its surrounding countrys.


take a look at Israel's defense budget, technological prowess, and their number one ally
then look at the Arabs.

Not to mention
1. the arabs are right (Israel has no right to do what it is doing, and has done, i.e ethnic cleansing, occupation and racist policies)
2. Only Iran still has a hardline stance on israel.

The Palestine charter is calling for an Arab state (with no Jews allowed)

Nonsense.
Both Fatah and Hamas acknowledge the right of jews to live in palestine. Which makes perfect sense, since there were jews before the state of israel existed as well.


anyway
where is that charter?

Also, i dont think Fatah at least would call for an islamic state, Hamas i bet they do, but Fatah and alot of the other factions (like the PFLP) wouldnt.


Why are no Jews allowed to exist in this state?

they are.

article 31 of the Hamas covenant (arguably the most radical anti-jew group, no?):
"The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions — Islam, Christianity and Judaism — to coexist in peace and quiet with each other."


Arafat was always kissing Sheikh Yassin for his own survival. He knew that if he diverted too much from the main line of Islamism that he would die.

Like that israeli president was shot by an orthodox jew?

hmm
;)

[Suburban_Guerrilla]

Haha, how stupidly deceived you must be. Israel is an invader state; the Zionists have literally used masses of humans to invade an entire region and turn it into a western neocolony.


the Jews have been on self-defense mode throughout history

Does that give them the right to murder Palestinian children and rob their land? The Palestinians live in utter misery thanks to Zionist occupation and racism. The Muslims, and especially the Palestinians, have never done a thing to Jews to deserve this treatment.


but an Arab-Islamofacist war against Israel

Hm, odd, as the vast majority of Palestinian liberation movements are secular and leftist. Israel's main enemies have always been Arab socialist states, as well.


The Palestine charter is calling for an Arab state (with no Jews allowed) and Islam as the official state religion.

God, you really have been lied to. The PLO calls for a Palestinian state ruled by the Arabs, with Jews living in peace as long as they do not attempt to take the land from its people. All Palestinian resistance movements are based on sovereignty and freedom from foreign occupation.

Maybe you should tell your Zionist-liar uncle that he should stop supporting a brutal military occupation of helpless civilians. Jews use Holocause guilt to justify shameful acts of violence every day.

I recommend you and your family read Norman Finkelstein's works.

[Suburban_Guerrilla]

Hm, indeed. But surely even left-communists and anarchists can understand that Zionism is a scar on the Middle East.

[Enragé]

the rhetoric is just a little too much, thats all what i was saying

and if you honestly believe those arab states were socialist (did the workers control the means of production?) you're pretty much deluded, no offense
it is correct though they arent "islamofascist" (seeing as Egypt and Syria both are vehemently against radical islam, and Egypt is facing a fundamentalist opposition group which i gather makes them really... annoyed)

[Suburban_Guerrilla]

and if you honestly believe those arab states were socialist (did the workers control the means of production?) you're pretty much deluded, no offense

I said 'Arab socialist', which is a totally different idea.


the rhetoric is just a little too much

Ah, understandable. But don't worry, I'm not a dogmatic Stalinist any more than I am a Trot or an anarchist (I'd describe myself as a simple Marxist-Leninist with some '60s New Left thrown in). So I won't ramble on with rhetoric too often.

[Vargha Poralli]

Well others have pretty much demolished the stupid arguments of the OP. Anyway for my part I would just provide links to some texts to some Marxists analysis of Middle East situation.ETOL: Middle East Archive. (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/mideast/index.htm)

[Janus]

The fact is that Israel is much more/prone to being actively harmful and discriminative in the Middle East region at the moment. No one needs to "demonize" Israel, they need only point to recent and ongoing events.

Also, Israel has been a point of discussion many times before. Here's the most recent one:

Israel (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=64428&hl=Israel)

[graffic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 05:21 pm
Haha, how stupidly deceived you must be. Israel is an invader state; the Zionists have literally used masses of humans to invade an entire region and turn it into a western neocolony.

The Jews have been without a homeland for God knows when, tad harsh to call them an invader state after all the persecution theyve been through, The least they deserve is a narrow strip of land in a desert. I might actually post a map to show how foolish you are.


Does that give them the right to murder Palestinian children and rob their land? The Palestinians live in utter misery thanks to Zionist occupation and racism. The Muslims, and especially the Palestinians, have never done a thing to Jews to deserve this treatment.

Why do you cherry pick the facts?! Stones are thrown both ways matey. I'm not even going to comment on the last sentance!


Hm, odd, as the vast majority of Palestinian liberation movements are secular and leftist. Israel's main enemies have always been Arab socialist states, as well.

ahh, so that explains the misguided logic. The real reasons for your view are coming out


All Palestinian resistance movements are based on sovereignty and freedom from foreign occupation.

Why are people like you always dumbing down Islam? Thats what they say, the Korahn is riddled with anti-semitism, the middle east is a melting pot for this sort of stuff

[Suburban_Guerrilla]

tad harsh to call them an invader state after all the persecution theyve been through

They were persucted by Europeans, not Arabs. The fact that they were treated badly doesn't give them the right to take over other people's land.


The least they deserve is a narrow strip of land in a desert. I might actually post a map to show how foolish you are.

A map of what? Israel? I don't care how small the land is, there were people living and working there when the Zionists invaded. That can never be justified, no matter how persecuted you've been.


Stones are thrown both ways matey.

No, stones are thrown one way. Missiles are thrown the other.


I'm not even going to comment on the last sentance!

Hm, tell me of some occasions pre-1947 when Jews were persecuted by Palestine.


Why are people like you always dumbing down Islam?

This has nothing to do with Islam. It is about imperialism, inhumanity, and invasion of other countries. It wouldn't matter if the people taking over were Christian, Hindu, or friggin' Jainist, it would still be wrong.


Thats what they say, the Korahn is riddled with anti-semitism, the middle east is a melting pot for this sort of stuff

Could you notify me of an anti-semitic line in the Quran? I'm no scholar, but I have yet to see such a statement, especially considering the tolerance with which Jews have been treated in the Muslim world for centuries.

[graffic]

A map of what? Israel? I don't care how small the land is, there were people living and working there when the Zionists invaded. That can never be justified, no matter how persecuted you've been.

So you wouldnt give up a small room in your house for a child whose family and friends had all been killed? The jews are the only race on this planet which have no homeland.


No, stones are thrown one way. Missiles are thrown the other

Missiles are fired by Hamas - a Islamic terroist organisation which recieves funding from Iran, which recieves funding from Russia and China.

If Hamas didnt fire at Israel, Israel wouldnt fire at all. Hamas are the attackers, like i said the Jews are/and have always been on self defense mode

[graffic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 05:20 pm



The Palestine charter is calling for an Arab state (with no Jews allowed)

Nonsense.
Both Fatah and Hamas acknowledge the right of jews to live in palestine.

No its not Nonsense, who do you think the suicide bombers are blowing themselves up in Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv?

And why, seriously why are you defending a terroist organisation?

[Raúl Duke]

I don't want to sound like a bleedy pacifist...but

Why are we assigning blame?

I think both sides are wrong, but I blame the bureaucracies; not the people.

I don't think most Isrealites want to hurt/kill Palestinians, or vice versa.

However, people get violent when they percieved that they are being attacked.

The more deaths on both sides the more the populations of both sides would blame it on the other population, causing more strife between the people.

I think if the people want peace, they should not be looking for it from their governments; it seems that the government interests differs from the people.

[Suburban_Guerrilla]

So you wouldnt give up a small room in your house for a child whose family and friends had all been killed? The jews are the only race on this planet which have no homeland.

That has got to be the single lamest analogy I have ever heard. They didn't take a small room, they took a whole frigging country and forced the inhabitants into refugee camps.

Ever heard of the Palestinians' keys? When they were kicked off their farms, the Israelis told them they could take back the land in a few years. They refused to give the Palestinians' deeds, and left them only with the keys to their homes. Ever since, the Israelis have occupied these people's farms and left them with keys as the only symbol of their ownership. I don't see that as 'borrowing a room'...more like 'kicking in the door and taking the house'.


No its not Nonsense, who do you think the suicide bombers are blowing themselves up in Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv?

Because their lives are seen as worthless and expendable from years of poverty and exploitation. They blow themselves up to stirke a tiny, meaningful blow against their oppressors.


And why, seriously why are you defending a terroist organisation?

Because their goals and ideals are correct, and because Israeli terror is a thousand times more reprehensible than a few rockets fired into an illegal settlement.

[Enragé]

Originally posted by graffic+April 07, 2007 09:56 pm--> (graffic @ April 07, 2007 09:56 pm)
[email protected] 07, 2007 05:20 pm



The Palestine charter is calling for an Arab state (with no Jews allowed)

Nonsense.
Both Fatah and Hamas acknowledge the right of jews to live in palestine.

No its not Nonsense, who do you think the suicide bombers are blowing themselves up in Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv?

And why, seriously why are you defending a terroist organisation? [/b]
they are blowing themselves up because thats the only effective way of resisting an enemy far superior to them

an algerian resistance leader once said something along the lines of
"When you give us helicopters, tanks, jet fighters, then we will stop bombing"

Thats not to say i agree with the tactic, but the suicide bombings do not mean they want to get rid of all the jews, simply the jewish state, which existence is a crim to start with.


One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter
If Hamas is a terrorist organisation, so be it, but then so is the Israeli state who time and time again have shown they care not even in the slightest for the lives of innocent Palestinian men women and children.




So you wouldnt give up a small room in your house for a child whose family and friends had all been killed? The jews are the only race on this planet which have no homeland.


get this

its NOT a question of the jews living in Palestine or not, that they most definitely have a right too
the point is they dont have a right to march in, tell everyone to fuck off, and take over, imposing occupation and oppressing the previous inhabitants.

MILLIONS of palestinians are living in REFUGEE CAMPS in Lebanon, DRIVEN AWAY by the Israeli state
now where is your compassion for them?
where is that small room you'd give them?

lastly
race does not exist, the very notion that someone has a right to a certain strip of land because of their percieved race is inherently racist.



Missiles are fired by Hamas - a Islamic terroist organisation which recieves funding from Iran, which recieves funding from Russia and China.

If Hamas didnt fire at Israel, Israel wouldnt fire at all. Hamas are the attackers, like i said the Jews are/and have always been on self defense mode

Hamas fires makeshift Qassam missiles, doubtlessly funded by Iran.

Israel fires the latest most modern missiles, funded by the US.
now?
your point is?

Nonsense
if Israel did not occupy palestinian land, if Israel did not oppress the palestinians, then Hamas wouldnt be firing missiles now would they

How the hell do you think Israel got established?
It was one blatant act of agression against the palestinian people
and after all that, when their land has been taken, their children killed, their homes reduced to rubble, when they resist... you place the blame with them?

tell me
where's the logic in that :blink:

intifada mostamarra min falasteen la hollanda

[bombeverything]

No its not Nonsense, who do you think the suicide bombers are blowing themselves up in Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv?

And why, seriously why are you defending a terroist organisation?

Ask yourself that question again. Would people do such a thing for fun? The Palestinians have endured years of oppression at the hands of the Israeli army. Isreal has land - the land that they stole from the Palestinians (self-defence? Hardly). It is the Palestinians who do not have a state.

The only "terrorist organisation" here is the Israeli state. The Israeli state is a Zionist terrorist organisation that recieves massive funding from the United States. Why? To control their economic interests in the middle east. It is crazy to talk about the Isreali state as if it has been in a state of continuous self defense. Invading someone elses land, killing half their population, and forcing them to leave their own home is an offensive, not defensive act.

Maybe you should do some more reading? Talking about the issue with your Pro-Israeli Uncle or whatever is not going to provide you with a balanced view.

[Cheung Mo]

I oppose Israel for the simple reason that I don't know why the fuck anybody in their right mind would be supportive of nationalism with an outlook rooted in reactionary Hebrew mythology. Just as Hebrew racialism is endemic throughout the Bible and the Torah, so is White supremacism a key component of the European mythology (a reason I view liberal neo-Pagan belief systems with contempt, much as I no longer have time to attend a liberal Church) that predated the Roman Empire's imposition of Christianity (and all of its reactionary idyosyncracies) on the people. Furthermore, it was not Arab Muslims that took control of Palestine from the Hebrews and instigated the Jewish diaspora. As well, anybody who has ever actually read Hebrew mythology should know that the Hebrews have been as much perpetrators of imperialist atrocities as they've been victims (even going as to far as to commit acts of genocide and to massacre women, children, and livestock for no logical reason aside from the ruling class' decree that it was divine providence). Finally, from a materialist perspective, supporting any sort of so-called "Holy Land" is absolute bullshit. That people are still willing to get trampled to death in order to worship at a sacred city or blow each other up over which Son of Mythological Figure Q4 was the father of Sky Deity 12B's Master Race is indicative of a global socioeconomic order that has failed them (as it has the overwhelming majority of humanity and all that lives on this planet) and that must be attacked at its very core.

[RNK]

And why, seriously why are you defending a terroist organisation?

More importantly, why are you?

The state of Israel, as created in 1947-1948, was made up of elements of radical right-wing extremists and terrorists. Groups like Irgun and Lehi terrorized Palestinians and the British authorities, bombing schools, assassinating officials and kidnapping hostages for ransom.

Upon the creation of Israel these groups were assimilated into the Israeli government. Leaders of the groups became officials, while rank-and-file terrorists joined the IDF. Immediately afterwards, Israel began a massive depopulation project to appropriate most Arab land. Sometimes it was done peacefully; other times, entire Arab villages and towns were destroyed and their populations forcefully moved to refugee camps. Illegal settlements were thrown up -- and are still being thrown up today -- by ultra-fundamentalists Jews who harass and often physically abuse Arabs with the protection of the IDF. Infact, radical settlers routinely kidnap arabs from nearby villages, and either hold them ransom or kill them. Any attempt by the Palestinians to resist is met with extreme force. Most of these attempts are peaceful; groups ranging from a dozen or two, to tens of thousands, mobilize in small villages and large cities. Wheelchair-bound protesters, who suffer from missing limbs to paralyzation, are deemed so 'dangerous' when they roll down the street with their signs that they are attacked with stun grenades, rubber bullets and tear gas. This is the more "humane" way of dealing with it. Often Israelis use live ammunition and gun down protesters; they "defend" against 10 year old kids throwing rocks and bottles by gunning them down with machineguns as the kids flee.

You're attempting to draw similarities between a tiny number of radical islamic terrorists, who number maybe in the hundreds (and of whom only a tiny fraction will actually take actions to physically harm Israelis), with the activities of the IDF, who have developed a systematically oppressive and humiliating rule over the entirety of Palestine.

Anyway, I'm willing to guess, based on your rhetoric, that you don't even believe that a Palestinian state exists, or should exist, right?

[RNK]

Oh, graffic, did you know that during 1942-1944, the leadership of Lehi attempted to form an alliance with Nazi Germany against the British? And that in 1983 one of these leaders became PM of Israel?

A man who attempted to form an alliance with Germany becomes PM and you're asking why anyone connects Israel with fascism?

[MarxistFuture]

Although I think the OP was clearly a troll, I am thankful other comrades were able to state a good argument against the state of Israel.

[graffic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 10:53 pm
I don't want to sound like a bleedy pacifist...but

Why are we assigning blame?

I think both sides are wrong, but I blame the bureaucracies; not the people.

I don't think most Isrealites want to hurt/kill Palestinians, or vice versa.

However, people get violent when they percieved that they are being attacked.

The more deaths on both sides the more the populations of both sides would blame it on the other population, causing more strife between the people.

I think if the people want peace, they should not be looking for it from their governments; it seems that the government interests differs from the people.
Best post so far

[graffic]

ts NOT a question of the jews living in Palestine or not, that they most definitely have a right too
the point is they dont have a right to march in, tell everyone to fuck off, and take over, imposing occupation and oppressing the previous inhabitants.


So that means there whole country should be abolished and given to Palestine? leaving the Jews (yet again) with no homeland. Don't get me wrong the way Israel was created was a complete mess, but that doesnt mean the Islamofacsits should be able to get what they want - the destruction of the Jews and their homeland.


That has got to be the single lamest analogy I have ever heard. They didn't take a small room, they took a whole frigging country and forced the inhabitants into refugee camps.

Refugee camps? Gas chambers? The Jews deserve that narrow strip of land at the very least.

[Goatse]

People who call Israel "fascist" undermine what fascist really means. Same goes for those who claim Bush is a fascist, or use fascist as a term for anyone who isn't left of Social Democracy or as a casual insult.

[Enragé]

So that means there whole country should be abolished and given to Palestine?

No it means the state of israel should be disbanded, and then the whole area put under the control of all of those who live there, allowing for the return of palestinian refugees and starting "Truth and Reconciliation" committees.


leaving the Jews (yet again) with no homeland.

So no, they can still live there, as they have done so for long before israel was established


that doesnt mean the Islamofacsits should be able to get what they want - the destruction of the Jews and their homeland.


1. Stop calling them islamofascists; large groups arent islamists (basicly everyone outside Hamas) and none of them are fascist, except some hardline elements but fascism is largely anti-religious.
2. They dont want to destroy the jews, not even Hamas, i've already shown you that part of their Covenant.
3. They want to destroy the terrorist entity which is the state of Israel, not the idea that Jews can live in the "holy land"


Refugee camps? Gas chambers?

could you stop the 62 year-old guilt trip for three seconds?
Just because they had a hard time in the past doesnt give them the right to give people a hard time in the present now does it.
That would mean that the palestinians would have a right to ethnically cleanse the jews, but they dont, now do they.


The Jews deserve that narrow strip of land at the very least.


Yes they deserve a place to live, i wont argue with that, but that doesnt mean they have a right to oppress the people who live there. No, they can live alongside the palestinians, nothing more, nothing less.

get it?


edit: to the guy who said he thought graffic is a troll, i dont think he is, just a bit confused.

[Goatse]

Yes they deserve a place to live, i wont argue with that, but that doesnt mean they have a right to oppress the people who live there. No, they can live alongside the palestinians, nothing more, nothing less.

The Israelis deserve to live in Palestine no more than the Palestinians, or any other ethnic group in then entire world. No ethnic group has a true claim on any land.

[KC]

Originally posted by goatse+--> (goatse)The Israelis deserve to live in Palestine no more than the Palestinians, or any other ethnic group in then entire world. No ethnic group has a true claim on any land.[/b]

Palestinians aren't really an "ethnic groups" just as Israelies aren't. You mean Jews? You're right; Jews have just as much right to live in that land as Arab Palestinians. Before the creation of the Israeli state Jews and Arabs lived there in relative peace for thousands of years. So yes, Jews and Arabs both have a right to live there. However, when we start discussing the matter with regards to Israelis, the situation changes. Israel is a 60-year illegal military occupation which displaced thousands of people from their homes and caused a humanitarian crisis which still goes on today. The state of Israel doesn't have a right to exist, and because of this Israelis don't either.


graffic
So that means there whole country should be abolished and given to Palestine?

No. The state would be abolished and both Arab Palestinians and former Israelis would be allowed to live there together. They could go back to living how they always have, before Isreal was created.


leaving the Jews (yet again) with no homeland.

Uh, the Jews don't need a homeland.


Don't get me wrong the way Israel was created was a complete mess, but that doesnt mean the Islamofacsits should be able to get what they want - the destruction of the Jews and their homeland.

Who specifically are you referring to when you say "Islamofacsits"?


Refugee camps? Gas chambers? The Jews deserve that narrow strip of land at the very least.

Wow! This is fucking ridiculous. Just because a group of people was terrorized doesn't give them the right to terrorize others. How the hell can you even follow that logic? That's fucking nuts.

[Goatse]

Palestinians aren't really an "ethnic groups" just as Israelies aren't. You mean Jews? You're right; Jews have just as much right to live in that land as Arab Palestinians. Before the creation of the Israeli state Jews and Arabs lived there in relative peace for thousands of years. So yes, Jews and Arabs both have a right to live there. However, when we start discussing the matter with regards to Israelis, the situation changes. Israel is a 60-year illegal military occupation which displaced thousands of people from their homes and caused a humanitarian crisis which still goes on today. The state of Israel doesn't have a right to exist, and because of this Israelis don't either.

Perhpas ethnic group was the wrong term. All I'm saying is that every person in the world has the right to live wherever they want, but no party - be they a religion, a nationality, an ethnic group or an individual - has a "claim" on any area of land.

[KC]

Perhpas ethnic group was the wrong term. All I'm saying is that every person in the world has the right to live wherever they want, but no party - be they a religion, a nationality, an ethnic group or an individual - has a "claim" on any area of land.

Fair enough. But I still disagree with your assertion that Israelis have as much right to live there as Palestinians. For Israelis to exist, the state of Israel would have to exist, and this automatically excludes non-Israelis from living there.

[Okocim]

before you all start ranting about the rights of the "palestinians" to that land maybe you should look into history and see exactly what was there before Israel rather than simply swallowing all these lies you are fed without question.



Originally posted by graffic+April 07, 2007 04:49 pm--> (graffic @ April 07, 2007 04:49 pm)I'm currently studying the middle - eastern crisis, and I'm interested to know why people on the far-left demonize Israel. [/b]
because they've found a bandwagon full of misogynistic, homophobic, religious zealots and just jumped on it?


Originally posted by Sir Aunty [email protected] 07, 2007 05:22 pm
Take the wall for example. This is deliberately enclosing the Palestinians within the West Bank and encroaching on Palestinian farmland.
the "wall" you so often demonise is actually 97% a chain link fence.

It was put there to stop suicide bombers killing innocent civilians and has worked incredibly successfully.

anywhere it goes onto palestinian farmland the farmers are compensated well.


Originally posted by Sir Aunty [email protected] 07, 2007 05:22 pm
Within the state of Israel, Palestinians are treated as second class citizens and land the Palestinians legally held after the 1947 Partition plan was illegally seized by Israel in 1967.


prove it. they have the exact same rights as any other citizen.

and please, before you give me a long list of lies, try to verify whether they're actual facts or not first. I'm sick of the kind of lies you use to justify your stance.


[email protected] 07, 2007 06:20 pm
2. Only Iran still has a hardline stance on israel.


have you never heard of hamas or hizbollah?

[Enragé]

before you all start ranting about the rights of the "palestinians" to that land maybe you should look into history and see exactly what was there before Israel rather than simply swallowing all these lies you are fed without question.

british mandate

anyway
anyone has a right to live there
both arabs and jews
so let them
they do however not have the right to come oppress the other.


the "wall" you so often demonise is actually 97% a chain link fence.

It was put there to stop suicide bombers killing innocent civilians and has worked incredibly successfully.

anywhere it goes onto palestinian farmland the farmers are compensated well.


I think the farmers wouldnt agree, or else there wouldnt be too much *****ing, and does the fact that its a fence change anything?

And what would work even better than that fence in preventing suicide bombings is the complete dissolution of that terrorist entity which we call the state of Israel.


have you never heard of hamas or hizbollah?

we were talking about Arab states

[dso79]

to the guy who said he thought graffic is a troll, i dont think he is, just a bit confused.

I have noticed an increase in the number of zionist trolls here on this forum and I’m pretty sure that this guy is a troll too. He’s just pretending to be ignorant. They might be members of a group of zionist cyber trolls, set up by the Israeli government, who try to influence polls, spread propaganda on forums etc:

Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiers (http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/07/171410.php)

Their styles are similar: they pretend to be leftists who used to support the Palestinians but, after some research, realized that the reports about Israeli crimes are lies and that the Palestinians are actually the bad guys (or something like that).

The fact that he went to Kiryat Arba says enough. That’s one of the most extremist settlements in the West Bank, a stronghold of Jewish terrorist groups like Kach and Kahane Chai, whose inhabitants are notorious for their assaults on Palestinian civilians.

[Okocim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 06:24 pm

to the guy who said he thought graffic is a troll, i dont think he is, just a bit confused.

I have noticed an increase in the number of zionist trolls here on this forum and I’m pretty sure that this guy is a troll too. He’s just pretending to be ignorant. They might be members of a group of zionist cyber trolls, set up by the Israeli government, who try to influence polls, spread propaganda on forums etc:

Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiers (http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/07/171410.php)

Their styles are similar: they pretend to be leftists who used to support the Palestinians but, after some research, realized that the reports about Israeli crimes are lies and that the Palestinians are actually the bad guys (or something like that).

The fact that he went to Kiryat Arba says enough. That’s one of the most extremist settlements in the West Bank, a stronghold of Jewish terrorist groups like Kach and Kahane Chai, whose inhabitants are notorious for their assaults on Palestinian civilians.
do you realise how stupid you sound?


you sound almost, almost as stupid as the nazis over on stormfront.



Jewish conspiracies? :lol:

do you know how to get onto the pay roll for this? :lol:

[Okocim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 06:16 pm
british mandate

anyway
anyone has a right to live there
both arabs and jews
so let them
they do however not have the right to come oppress the other.

and before that? and before that?

no country ever known as "Palestine" has existed there.


I agree with you; Jews and Arabs should be able to live there, and Jews and Arabs currently do live happily in Israel with each other. If Arabs want to live happily in the west bank and gaza strip then maybe they should pull up their trousers, recognise Israel (because it ain't going anywhere), get their act together and put together a decent government which abides by Oslo II and wants peace rather than voting for extremists, preaching hate against Jews and not recognising Israel.

I support Israel, but that doesn't mean I want to see Arabs being killed, I want to see peace and the only way that's gonna happen is if they cut the crap.


I think the farmers wouldnt agree, or else there wouldnt be too much *****ing, and does the fact that its a fence change anything?

And what would work even better than that fence in preventing suicide bombings is the complete dissolution of that terrorist entity which we call the state of Israel.

of course they don't agree because they've been brought up to hate Jews, to believe Jews are children of the devil.

:lol: you call Israel a "terrorist entity". I thought you started your post well, now you're just throwing about nonsense. shame.


we were talking about Arab states

Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon.

[Enragé]

and before that? and before that?

no country ever known as "Palestine" has existed there.


do i care?


I agree with you; Jews and Arabs should be able to live there, and Jews and Arabs currently do live happily in Israel with each other. If Arabs want to live happily in the west bank and gaza strip then maybe they should pull up their trousers, recognise Israel (because it ain't going anywhere), get their act together and put together a decent government which abides by Oslo II and wants peace rather than voting for extremists, preaching hate against Jews and not recognising Israel.

I support Israel, but that doesn't mean I want to see Arabs being killed, I want to see peace and the only way that's gonna happen is if they cut the crap.

And what about the refugees? Hmm?
What about the land taken?
will the palestinians just have to "suck it up"?

Wait a minute
so the palestinians are the one who should cut the crap, even though they are the ones living under occupation, and the "good guys" are the occupiers?
Nice try.


of course they don't agree because they've been brought up to hate Jews, to believe Jews are children of the devil.


Now who's the one making stuff up?
Regardless, even if that is the case, which it isnt, the Israelis arent really defeating that stereotype now are they?


Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon.


are they saying "DEATH TO ISRAEL"?
no, they're not.
Jordan perhaps dont know anything about their stance, but thats a tiny shithole anyway

[Okocim]

Originally posted by NKOS+April 08, 2007 06:53 pm--> (NKOS @ April 08, 2007 06:53 pm)do i care?[/b]

no, you anti-Israel, pro-homophobia/theocratic nations types usually don't care that before the 60s no "palestinian" people existed or about that fact that "palestine" has never existed. I didn't expect you to care because you're the ones supporting the lying religious zealots.


And what about the refugees? Hmm?
What about the land taken?
will the palestinians just have to "suck it up"?

Wait a minute
so the palestinians are the one who should cut the crap, even though they are the ones living under occupation, and the "good guys" are the occupiers?
Nice try.

the refugees of what? the non-existent and never existent "palestine"?

land taken from who? "palestinians" who didn't exist before the 60's?

occupiers of what? land which has never belonged to a nation known as "palestine" because a nation known as "palestine" has never existed?

yeah, you not caring about basic facts certainly makes for interesting debate. :rolleyes:


[email protected] 08, 2007 06:53 pm
Now who's the one making stuff up?
Regardless, even if that is the case, which it isnt, the Israelis arent really defeating that stereotype now are they?

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...ce/patext1.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/patext1.html)

don't they tell you that in "beginners introduction into how to be a terrorist supporting anti-Israel arsehole" class?


are they saying "DEATH TO ISRAEL"?
no, they're not.
Jordan perhaps dont know anything about their stance, but thats a tiny shithole anyway

ok well clearly you aren't too clued in about international politics or the history of the region (as if you even needed to prove that tbh)

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 04:52 pm
because they've found a bandwagon full of misogynistic, homophobic, religious zealots and just jumped on it?
So all of my Palestinian friends are mysogynistic homophobic religious zealots? I find that truly offensive and racist. I am not saying that Israeli's are a bandwagon of racist Jewish supremacist land-grabbers, even if the policies of the nation make them out to be that. The people are seperate from their respective nation, any true leftist would concur with this statement. Nationalism will get you nowhere. We do not support Palestinian nationalism, we support Palestinian National Self-Determination. There is a huge difference.


the "wall" you so often demonise is actually 97% a chain link fence. Prove this, and tell me why a chain link fence is any better? Wasnt Auschwitz surrounded by chain-link fences? Or Guantanamo Bay?


It was put there to stop suicide bombers killing innocent civilians and has worked incredibly successfully.

Right.....Thats why it cuts into palestinian land so much. Dont be so Niave, it was put there to do a few different things:
1-solidify Israeli Settlements, and make them more permenant
2-divive Palestinians further from one another, it is easier to occupy people who are divided from themselves
3-make life more difficult for Palestinians who work in Israel, thereby increasing unemployment, thereby trying to get them to move out of theyr land so the settlers can take more.
4-Stop resistance fighters from entering Israel....this is not necessarily suicide bombers, though I do admit this does play a role (not the only, or even most significant role of course) in the fence/wall. But if you really want to stop these attacks, you must solve the root problems, not just build a wall which will ferment more anger. The wall will cause more attacks than it will stop, this is inevitable. It is a blatant injustice, and such injustices breed more injustices, this is a law of history.


anywhere it goes onto palestinian farmland the farmers are compensated well.

You mean like how we "compensated" the natives of this country? You cant tear down 200 year old olive tree's that have been sustaining a family for 6 generations, remove them from their land, and expect them to be happy because you threw a few shekels at them. That "Compensation" is just going to keep them from starving to death, it does not make up for this injustice, not in a million years. But, I suppose that colonialism is much the same as it was 400 years ago.


have you never heard of hamas or hizbollah?

Oh yes, the Islamic boogeyman who are going to kill all the Jews, is this not correct? While I do not support Hamas, and only support Hizbollah insofar as they are supported by the people of the country they were defending (I believe 90% of Lebanon; Christian, Sunni, and Shiite supported them) They are not the radical madmen Americo-Israeli propaganda makes them out to be. They arent even representitives of the same religion. Hamas, which is a Sunni party, is only well liked in Gaza Strip, where 2 million people are forced to live in a tiny little peice of land. Gaza is essentially one big prison, living conditions are terrible, and entry/exit is near impossible. Under such conditions, history has shown that radicalism flourishes. Since the oppressors treat them like shit under a religious guise, their radicalism will undoubtably take a religious strain itself. Though I do not support Hamas at all (I sympathize with the PFLP, as well as Israeli Groups advocating equality and secularization) I do feel pity for its supporters, most of whom are living under conditions neither you nor I could imagine. True, they are not the worst off of all oppressed people, but their situation is perhaps the most directly injust. They live with daily threat of death and occupation by a foriegn force waving a religious flag. How would that make you feel?

Suppose an army of people waving a flag with the Om symbol come to your town, send tanks through your streets, tell you when your cerfew is, set up checkpoints all around your neighbourhood, dont let you leave your county without a HUGE hassle, shoot your little brother for throwing a stone at a tank, bulldoze your house, and throw you in prison for not having proper documents, how would you feel? And this is assuming you are from the place they occupy, and were not forced there after the foriegn army took your land (The case of most inhabitants of Gaza).

You have very stereotypical and racist views of Palestinians, and it clouds your judgement of the situation. I ask you one question: Have you ever met and befriended a Palestinian?

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by Okocim+April 08, 2007 11:15 pm--> (Okocim @ April 08, 2007 11:15 pm)
[email protected] 08, 2007 06:16 pm
british mandate

anyway
anyone has a right to live there
both arabs and jews
so let them
they do however not have the right to come oppress the other.

and before that? and before that?

no country ever known as "Palestine" has existed there.






[/b]
Bullshit. There had never been a sepearte copuntry called Palestine but Jews and arabs had always lived there. Ever heard of some events called Crusades ? Ever had an Idea why the fuck it was waged for ? Who the fuck fought in it and protected Millions of Jews as long as the copntrolled those Lands ?


I agree with you; Jews and Arabs should be able to live there, and Jews and Arabs currently do live happily in Israel with each other. If Arabs want to live happily in the west bank and gaza strip then maybe they should pull up their trousers, recognise Israel (because it ain't going anywhere), get their act together and put together a decent government which abides by Oslo II and wants peace rather than voting for extremists, preaching hate against Jews and not recognising Israel.


Why this imperialist sucker had not yet been restricted ?

Oslo acord was a clever trap for Arafat who unfortunatrely fell in to it.


I support Israel, but that doesn't mean I want to see Arabs being killed, I want to see peace and the only way that's gonna happen is if they cut the crap.

But unfortunately Israeli ruling class never thinks like that.Yopu can't support Israel and call yourself "Marxist-Leninist".




I think the farmers wouldnt agree, or else there wouldnt be too much *****ing, and does the fact that its a fence change anything?

And what would work even better than that fence in preventing suicide bombings is the complete dissolution of that terrorist entity which we call the state of Israel.

of course they don't agree because they've been brought up to hate Jews, to believe Jews are children of the devil.

You are making up the things asshole.Neither PLo nor HAMAS sow the hatred of of Jews nor did they sow th hatred against them in first place. It is the actions of the Israeli government which sows hatred among those people.



:lol: you call Israel a "terrorist entity". I thought you started your post well, now you're just throwing about nonsense. shame.

But unfortunately that is the truth. Israel is an Terrorist Entity.






we were talking about Arab states

Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon.

Jordan - A monarchy which requires protection from US against its own people.

Egypt - Sold out to Israel and US some 20 years back.

Lebanon - Was never a bigger threat to Israel.

[EwokUtopia]

Okocim- You call yourself a Marxist-Leninist, then you cant support Israel. Forget the Israel-Palestine Issue for one minitue, and just listen. A Marxist-Leninist does not support Nations or Countries, it is an Internationalist Philosophy, and when you mix Nationalism with Socialism.....well, just put those two words together and tell me what you get. Nationalism and Socialism are not compatible. Especially nationalism that supports a capitalist nation with a clear elite and clear exploitation of working classes, be they within the country or not. You will not find any Marxist-Leninists who Support America, wave the Stars and Bars, and proudly say the pledge of alegiance. You will not find any Marxist-Leninists who support the United Kingdom, support monarchy, and have wet dreams about the British Empire. You will not find Any Marxist Leninists who Support Japan, deny the rape of Nanjing, and bow to the Emperor, so tell me how it makes sense to find a Marxist Leninist who supports the state of Israel, which is based on Ethno-religious basis's, and treats the indigenous inhabitants of that country like absolute shit that does not deserve to live there?

[Okocim]

Originally posted by EwokUtopia+April 08, 2007 07:05 pm--> (EwokUtopia @ April 08, 2007 07:05 pm)So all of my Palestinian friends are mysogynistic homophobic religious zealots? I find that truly offensive and racist. I am not saying that Israeli's are a bandwagon of racist Jewish supremacist land-grabbers, even if the policies of the nation make them out to be that. The people are seperate from their respective nation, any true leftist would concur with this statement. Nationalism will get you nowhere. We do not support Palestinian nationalism, we support Palestinian National Self-Determination. There is a huge difference. [/b]

no, the people probably aren't, they just fall for the bullshit of their leaders.

you support self-determination of a nation which was never actually a nation? how the fuck does that work?

In the 60s the Arabs (not "palestinians") living in the area wanted self-determination so started to claim they were a seperate nation in an attempt to gain this. people fell for it and we see the result in you lot today.

"Palestinians" and "Palestine" have never existed.


Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 07:05 pm

the "wall" you so often demonise is actually 97% a chain link fence. Prove this, and tell me why a chain link fence is any better? Wasnt Auschwitz surrounded by chain-link fences? Or Guantanamo Bay?

here you go:
http://palestinefacts.org/images/security_fence.jpg
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_current_security_fence.php

looks like a fence to me. :blink:

The high concrete bit which you often see on western news services makes up 3% and is only there in order to stop snipers from shooting at civilians, as explained here:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/fence.html

this site is nice because it also contains this graph:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/israel/fencestat.gif



Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 07:05 pm

It was put there to stop suicide bombers killing innocent civilians and has worked incredibly successfully.

Right.....Thats why it cuts into palestinian land so much. Dont be so Niave, it was put there to do a few different things:
1-solidify Israeli Settlements, and make them more permenant
2-divive Palestinians further from one another, it is easier to occupy people who are divided from themselves
3-make life more difficult for Palestinians who work in Israel, thereby increasing unemployment, thereby trying to get them to move out of theyr land so the settlers can take more.
4-Stop resistance fighters from entering Israel....this is not necessarily suicide bombers, though I do admit this does play a role (not the only, or even most significant role of course) in the fence/wall. But if you really want to stop these attacks, you must solve the root problems, not just build a wall which will ferment more anger. The wall will cause more attacks than it will stop, this is inevitable. It is a blatant injustice, and such injustices breed more injustices, this is a law of history.

see graph and site linked above.



Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 07:05 pm

anywhere it goes onto palestinian farmland the farmers are compensated well.

You mean like how we "compensated" the natives of this country? You cant tear down 200 year old olive tree's that have been sustaining a family for 6 generations, remove them from their land, and expect them to be happy because you threw a few shekels at them. That "Compensation" is just going to keep them from starving to death, it does not make up for this injustice, not in a million years. But, I suppose that colonialism is much the same as it was 400 years ago.

"Contractors are responsible for carefully uprooting and replanting the trees. So far, more than 60,000 olive trees have been relocated in accordance with this procedure."
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/fence.html


Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 07:05 pm

have you never heard of hamas or hizbollah?

Oh yes, the Islamic boogeyman who are going to kill all the Jews, is this not correct? While I do not support Hamas, and only support Hizbollah insofar as they are supported by the people of the country they were defending (I believe 90% of Lebanon; Christian, Sunni, and Shiite supported them) They are not the radical madmen Americo-Israeli propaganda makes them out to be. They arent even representitives of the same religion. Hamas, which is a Sunni party, is only well liked in Gaza Strip, where 2 million people are forced to live in a tiny little peice of land. Gaza is essentially one big prison, living conditions are terrible, and entry/exit is near impossible. Under such conditions, history has shown that radicalism flourishes. Since the oppressors treat them like shit under a religious guise, their radicalism will undoubtably take a religious strain itself. Though I do not support Hamas at all (I sympathize with the PFLP, as well as Israeli Groups advocating equality and secularization) I do feel pity for its supporters, most of whom are living under conditions neither you nor I could imagine. True, they are not the worst off of all oppressed people, but their situation is perhaps the most directly injust. They live with daily threat of death and occupation by a foriegn force waving a religious flag. How would that make you feel?

this would be the same hizbollah who's leader is Nasrallah who said:
"We have discovered how to hit the Jews where they are the most vulnerable. The Jews love life, so that is what we shall take away from them. We are going to win because they love life and we love death."

"If they [the Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide."

"If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli."

nice.


Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 07:05 pm
Suppose an army of people waving a flag with the Om symbol come to your town, send tanks through your streets, tell you when your cerfew is, set up checkpoints all around your neighbourhood, dont let you leave your county without a HUGE hassle, shoot your little brother for throwing a stone at a tank, bulldoze your house, and throw you in prison for not having proper documents, how would you feel? And this is assuming you are from the place they occupy, and were not forced there after the foriegn army took your land (The case of most inhabitants of Gaza).

appeals to emotion rather than fact is a pretty low debating tactic, comrade.


[email protected] 08, 2007 07:05 pm
You have very stereotypical and racist views of Palestinians, and it clouds your judgement of the situation. I ask you one question: Have you ever met and befriended a Palestinian?

I do know "palestinians" actually, and as I've said on another thread, before going out and finding out facts for myself i support these "palestinians".

In fact, the few I do know (I'll give you, that ain't many seeing as i live in a western country) are in fact hugely anti-semitic and I feel uncomfortable around them.

[yulives]

Well, as far as Im concerned, nobodys right. Palestinians, Arabs, Jews, Israelis... whatever. This is just another example of what nationalism and religion can do. Get rid of both, and there is no more problem.

[Okocim]

Originally posted by g.ram+April 08, 2007 07:06 pm--> (g.ram @ April 08, 2007 07:06 pm)Bullshit. There had never been a sepearte copuntry called Palestine but Jews and arabs had always lived there. Ever heard of some events called Crusades ? Ever had an Idea why the fuck it was waged for ? Who the fuck fought in it and protected Millions of Jews as long as the copntrolled those Lands ?[/b]

so....your position is basially arguing for self-determination of a nation and people which has never existed? :unsure:

so if me and some mates were to decide to make ourselves into a little clique do you think in 30 years time people would be screaming hate against a state for our "right" to the land?


Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 07:06 pm


I agree with you; Jews and Arabs should be able to live there, and Jews and Arabs currently do live happily in Israel with each other. If Arabs want to live happily in the west bank and gaza strip then maybe they should pull up their trousers, recognise Israel (because it ain't going anywhere), get their act together and put together a decent government which abides by Oslo II and wants peace rather than voting for extremists, preaching hate against Jews and not recognising Israel.


Why this imperialist sucker had not yet been restricted ?

Oslo acord was a clever trap for Arafat who unfortunatrely fell in to it.

because i've done nothing wrong. I simply disagree with you. I'm happy to use facts to back myself up, none of you are, you're just throwing around 2nd hand lies.

which is the excuse I suppose for not sticking to it?


Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 07:06 pm

I support Israel, but that doesn't mean I want to see Arabs being killed, I want to see peace and the only way that's gonna happen is if they cut the crap.

But unfortunately Israeli ruling class never thinks like that.Yopu can't support Israel and call yourself "Marxist-Leninist".

nor does "palestinian" ruling or working class.


Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 07:06 pm


of course they don't agree because they've been brought up to hate Jews, to believe Jews are children of the devil.

You are making up the things asshole.Neither PLo nor HAMAS sow the hatred of of Jews nor did they sow th hatred against them in first place. It is the actions of the Israeli government which sows hatred among those people.

see above post.


the actions of the PA in not stopping the hatred being spread about Israel and Jews in their territories are in direct confliction with the terms of Oslo.


Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 07:06 pm

:lol: you call Israel a "terrorist entity". I thought you started your post well, now you're just throwing about nonsense. shame.

But unfortunately that is the truth. Israel is an Terrorist Entity.

so fucking well prove it then, rather than just stating the opinion of some idiot you listened to.


[email protected] 08, 2007 07:06 pm

Jordan - A monarchy which requires protection from US against its own people.

Egypt - Sold out to Israel and US some 20 years back.

Lebanon - Was never a bigger threat to Israel.

they still all fully support the destruction of Israel and take actions to try to help pursue this.

[graffic]

People who are anti-Israel are saying Israel has no right to exist because they belive in Internationalism etc. Then at the same time your arguing that Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land!

Both countries are also bourgeois states which are both enemies of the working class.



Uh, the Jews don't need a homeland.

Nah they probably don't, fuck em. Even if they do who gives a shit?



What about the land taken?
will the palestinians just have to "suck it up"?

Wait a minute
so the palestinians are the one who should cut the crap, even though they are the ones living under occupation, and the "good guys" are the occupiers?
Nice try.

The land taken? Look at the size of Israel on the map compared to the Arab countries.

[graffic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 09:26 am
Oh, graffic, did you know that during 1942-1944, the leadership of Lehi attempted to form an alliance with Nazi Germany against the British? And that in 1983 one of these leaders became PM of Israel?

A man who attempted to form an alliance with Germany becomes PM and you're asking why anyone connects Israel with fascism?
And did you know Arab nationalists also collaborated with the Nazis. Hell, everybody collaborated with everyone, your friend today is your enemy tomorrow, the important point is to put down the proles whichever way you can.

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by Okocim+--> (Okocim)
so....your position is basially arguing for self-determination of a nation and people which has never existed? unsure.gif
[/b]

What is your point asshole ? Palestine as a nation has not existed but the people had lived there in all course of History.


Originally posted by Okocim+--> (Okocim)
so if me and some mates were to decide to make ourselves into a little clique do you think in 30 years time people would be screaming hate against a state for our "right" to the land?
[/b]

Clearly you have nothing to argue in this matter.

Originally posted by Okocim

because i've done nothing wrong. I simply disagree with you. I'm happy to use facts to back myself up

The source for your facts is a Zionist propaganda site. It was classified as a Pro-Israel advocacy and watchdog sites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict#External_links)in wikipedia.


[email protected]

the actions of the PA in not stopping the hatred being spread about Israel and Jews in their territories are in direct confliction with the terms of Oslo.

prove that you are an Total asshole. PA was never a representative of Palestinain people. It is just a governing body whose finace is controlled by Isreali Government.


graffic
People who are anti-Israel are saying Israel has no right to exist because they belive in Internationalism etc. Then at the same time your arguing that Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land!

Both countries are also bourgeois states which are both enemies of the working class.

Good dodging indeed. Can you address the points made ? Of course you can't.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 06:23 pm
no, the people probably aren't, they just fall for the bullshit of their leaders.

you support self-determination of a nation which was never actually a nation? how the fuck does that work?

In the 60s the Arabs (not "palestinians") living in the area wanted self-determination so started to claim they were a seperate nation in an attempt to gain this. people fell for it and we see the result in you lot today.

"Palestinians" and "Palestine" have never existed.
Actually, they rather dislike their leaders. Leadership in Palestine is a huge problem. And they do understand they their people are in a state of huge turmoil, but this does not mean that their people are bad, or undeserving of their rights.

I support self determination of Palestinians, African-Americans, the indigenous people of Canada, Austrailia, the US, as well as the indigenous people across the world. None of which has ever had what we would call a "nation" by modern standards. The concept of nationhood is very new, and the fact that these people have never had it does not mean they have no right to it. In Palestine, I do not support an Arab Palestinian state, but a secular, multi-ethnic state, which, incidentally, is the same thing every Palestinian I have ever met wants. No Anti-Semitic bigots there. Indeed, these friends would get mad at me if I started dropping anti-semitic rhetoric, most of them are feminists, and the devout sunni friends I have met are very tolerant of other religions and homosexuals, and have gotten slightly annoyed at times by my anti-Christian rhetoric, but as a Catholic apostate, i hold onto that despite the arguements it arouses.

I suppose I shall have to inform them that they do not exist, or that they just suddenly popped into existance in the 60's.


looks like a fence to me. :blink:

Doesnt look like something Id want built in my backyard to me :blink:


this would be the same hizbollah who's leader is Nasrallah who said:
"We have discovered how to hit the Jews where they are the most vulnerable. The Jews love life, so that is what we shall take away from them. We are going to win because they love life and we love death."

"If they [the Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide."

"If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli."

nice.

Like to cite that from a neutral, unbiased source? I could dig up false Talmudic quotes saying that it is the goal of the Jewish Religion to have all non-Jews as slaves, but that would hardly be correct or fair, now would it. Provide me with the direct quotes (unless Nasrallah said this all in English) as well as the direct translation, and then I may be willing to listen to this rubbish, provided it is properly cited.


appeals to emotion rather than fact is a pretty low debating tactic, comrade.

Is it? Should I find fact to back up this scenario, would that make you happy? Or perhaps you do not like your emotions swayed against your firmly held beliefs. There are plenty of "facts" to fuel both sides of this arguement, and not all of them can be correct. You follow your "facts", I follow mine. The difference is that your facts come from the ruling class, as well as neoconservative propaganda, and my facts come from a myriad of sources with a myriad of opposing beliefs. We, as leftists, tend not to believe the facts provided by groups espousing nationalism or reactionary bases for capitalist nations.


I do know "palestinians" actually, and as I've said on another thread, before going out and finding out facts for myself i support these "palestinians".

In fact, the few I do know (I'll give you, that ain't many seeing as i live in a western country) are in fact hugely anti-semitic and I feel uncomfortable around them.

Then we know quite different people, as Ive said above, the friends and aquaintences that I have abhor anti-semitism and want to live alongside with the Israeli's in an equal and secular state. If I became a rabid anti-semite, they would feel uncomfortable around me.


Nobody is saying that Palestinians are a perfect people with a perect society, quite the opposite, they have a huge amount of reactionary aspects as a whole, but so does every society and ethnic group. If you think that I am representitve of most White Canadians, you would be sorely mistaken. My people are for the most part simple minded conservatives, so are most people. This is the problem of mainstream education and media upbringing. It is our duty as leftists to fight this current in all societies to trump racism, classism, xenophobia, intolerance and nationalism. Although, there are different types of nationalism. Read this article (http://www.hippy.com/article-76.html) to understand what I mean when I say this. Palestinians, whatever their faults, are an oppressed people, and Israeli's, whatever their merits, are a people gaining from this oppression. In this, I have far more in common with Israeli's (White Canadian, remember), but my sympathies lie with all oppressed people of the world, even if this means they are against "my own people". I could not call myself a leftist if this were not the case.

There is one race: the human race, and all of these racial, national, linguistic, ethnic, religious, sexual, and historical boundaries must be overome if this one race is to survive. Would you not agree, or do your attachments to nation hold precidence over your attachments to humanity?

You must choose between Nationalism or Socialism, because you can not have both. So whats it going to be then, eh?

[Okocim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 08:03 pm
The source for your facts is a Zionist propaganda site. It was classified as a Pro-Israel advocacy and watchdog sites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict#External_links)in wikipedia.

so prove the pictures and facts are wrong then, rather than throwing your dummy in the corner and calling me an arsehole.

the simple fact remains: you can't.

:lol:

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

People who are anti-Israel are saying Israel has no right to exist because they belive in Internationalism etc. Then at the same time your arguing that Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land!

Both countries are also bourgeois states which are both enemies of the working class.

Are you completely stupid?

The Palestinians were promised that land for fighting on the Allies side during WW2. They were under the "protection" of the British Empire.

Then, the persecuted German Jews were promised Land so they could be safe from the anti-Semitism in Europe.

So, land which makes up Israel and Palestine, was liberated and then given away by Imperial powers.

This has left s situation where the Israelis have a state, which is subsidised by the US. It commits crimes by bulldozing Palestinian homes and setting up illegal settlements. It has checkpoints throughout the west bank and Gaza. Its has a monopoly on the local water supplies which are on Palestinian land.

More than that! they are denied a state, they are denied to live in a country without Israeli occupation, they are don't even control their own boarders. They suffer from being a democracy, which means they have sanctions placed on them.

I mean really, this isn't about sprouting all kinds of dogmatic shit, its about the practicalities of allowing the Palestinians some from of normal life. Something which WE have, something which Israelis have, but something which many Palestinians don't have!

YOU STUPID FUCK

[Goatse]

Originally posted by Zampanò@April 08, 2007 04:41 pm

Perhpas ethnic group was the wrong term. All I'm saying is that every person in the world has the right to live wherever they want, but no party - be they a religion, a nationality, an ethnic group or an individual - has a "claim" on any area of land.

Fair enough. But I still disagree with your assertion that Israelis have as much right to live there as Palestinians. For Israelis to exist, the state of Israel would have to exist, and this automatically excludes non-Israelis from living there.
Umm, when I refer to Israelis, I mean the people who are, by nationality, Israelis. I don't actually mean the nation should exist.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by Okocim+April 08, 2007 07:08 pm--> (Okocim @ April 08, 2007 07:08 pm)
[email protected] 08, 2007 08:03 pm
The source for your facts is a Zionist propaganda site. It was classified as a Pro-Israel advocacy and watchdog sites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict#External_links)in wikipedia.

so prove the pictures and facts are wrong then, rather than throwing your dummy in the corner and calling me an arsehole.

the simple fact remains: you can't.

:lol: [/b]
He could, He probably just doesnt feel like spending 45 minitues digging up resources to prove you wrong.

You'll notice that all of my posts have contained information from the top of my head. This is because the difference between rhetorical debate and citational debate can be an hour per post, which I do not have. I promise that when School ends, and summer is on, and I have time to spend digging up "facts" to prove your "facts" wrong, I will, but right now I am procrastinating from research that I actually have to do, so you will pardon me if I do not readily engage in extra-curricular research to prove a simple point. I simply dont have the time or patience.

being that as it is, I have plenty of facts off the top of my head, especially experiances related to me by friends of mine who have actually suffured under Israeli Occupation to prove that Israel isnt a warm friendly state fighting the evil terrorists that your statistics make it out to be. That will suffice for now.

Here is some easy facts.

Gaza Strip is small. 365 square kilometers, yet it has a population of over 1,300,000 (73% of whom live under the poverty line, unemployment is huge due to occupation and lack of resources and economic freedom). These people largely live in overpopulated refugee camps, and many of them are denied basic priveleges you and I share (electricity, running water, proper sewage, access to acceptable food, et cetera...). Most of the people who live here are people who were forced from their homes in what is now Israel, or are decended from these people. They are caged in this tiny strip of land, and leaving it is extremely hard. One of my friends was born in a refugee camp here, but his family was forced from their village which is now in Israel. The village has been untouched, and remains a ghost town. His family were forced to leave Gaza due to the living conditions, and they now live in Canada, and can not enter their homeland until they get a Canadian citizenship. I, a non-Palestinian, would have a far easier time going to his village than he would, and have actually contemplated doing so.

Justify this with your facts.

[RNK]

And did you know Arab nationalists also collaborated with the Nazis. Hell, everybody collaborated with everyone

That would matter, if[/i] I had defended arab extremists. I don't. You, however, are defending Israel's actions. This just exposes your bias, hypocrisy and pro-Israeli double-standards. Israel can drop bombs and kill Palestinian kids, but Arab extremists can't blow themselves up and do the same? Either it's wrong or it's right.


[b]In the 60s the Arabs (not "palestinians") living in the area wanted self-determination so started to claim they were a seperate nation in an attempt to gain this. people fell for it and we see the result in you lot today.

So you do not support a culturally and ethnically seperate people developing their own self-determination? God, we must all be so stupid; we must crush all arab attempts to control their own destiny!


so....your position is basially arguing for self-determination of a nation and people which has never existed?

Are you trying to say that Arabs living in "Israel" have less a right of self-determination than Jews?

[Omri Evron]

First of all, I want to say that I haven't read all the posts in this thread but I hope what I say is relevant as it is also a reaction to many other threads I've read on this board.

The issue is not to be against Israel, and certainly not against Jews, but against the brutal military occupation forced on the Palestinian people by the state of Israel. Opposing this occupation is done out of the belief that all peoples have a right to self determination, as a protest against the horrible crimes committed in the Occupied Territories on a daily basis, and against the utter violation of human rights that necessarily occurs when millions of people are oppressed by a foreign military power. But it is also the most important struggle for peace, as the Occupation is the core of the Middle-East conflict which endangers the Palestinians, Israelis, and surrounding people, and is contrary to the interests of the overwhelming majority of the people of all nationalities. Opposing the Occupation is also the interest of the Israeli people, the majority of whom really want to live in p

[Omri Evron]

First of all, I want to say that I haven't read all the posts in this thread but I hope what I say is relevant as it is also a reaction to many other threads I've read on this board.

The issue is not to be against Israel, and certainly not against Jews, but against the brutal military occupation forced on the Palestinian people by the state of Israel. Opposing this occupation is done out of the belief that all peoples have a right to self determination, as a protest against the horrible crimes committed in the Occupied Territories on a daily basis, and against the utter violation of human rights that necessarily occurs when millions of people are oppressed by a foreign military power. But it is also the most important struggle for peace, as the Occupation is the core of the Middle-East conflict which endangers the Palestinians, Israelis, and surrounding people, and is contrary to the interests of the overwhelming majority of the people of all nationalities. Opposing the Occupation is also the interest of the Israeli people, the majority of whom really want to live in peace, so it is not being anti-Israeli.
I struggle against the Occupation out of believe that I can live in the Middle East as an Israeli Jew. But I can do that only as an equal partner in solidarity and peace with my neighbors of the region, not as a colonialist and an oppressor. We must join hands with our comrades of all nationalities and religions in a united struggle against Imperialism. But currently the government of Israel acts as a manifestation of Imperialism in the Middle East. While it is true that most of the governments in our region are un-democratic American puppets (Jordan, Saudi-Arabia, ect.), Israel has become in all forms but formally an American colony, and is one of the most brutal agents of Imperialism today.
Being agents of the US is not the interest of the people of Israel. Sooner or later the US will discard us for its interests. In the meanwhile we are growing farther apart from our neighbors- refusing to live in peace as equals with them, thus relying only on brute military force and the aid of Western Imperialism for our protection. But when we surround ourselves with cannons, walls, check-points and fences from all sides we are not just committing crimes against other people and imprisoning the Palestinians, but in reality we are constructing a huge prison for ourselves and we are endangering our future.
Israel is very different from other capitalist countries like France. Israel is maintaining for the past forty years a military occupation on another people- while other countries have long ago gave up direct and violent colonialism in favor of an indirect neo-colonialism. It is a lone and ugly relic of a dark age that has past.
In addition, Zionism is very different from other forms of nationalism. It is a colonialist movement based on a wrong basis. The moto of the Zionist movement was "A people with no land to a land with no people"- obviously wrong. The ignorance of the existence of the native Palestinians was done out of the belief of most Europeans at the end of the 19th century that denied the existence of "civilized" people out-side of Europe.
When I say I'm an anti-Zionist I'm obviously not suggesting to throw all the Jews out of Israel. Other than the historical criticism, I say that if the Israeli Jews want to stay in Israel they have the right to do so just as long as it does not come at the expense of any one else. In addition I object to the idea of a Zionist state, because it necessarily leads to discrimination. I don't want to live in a Jewish-Democratic state just like I don't want to live in an Islamic or Hindu-Democratic state.

[Tommy-K]

Israel continue to occupy Palestinian land which rightfully belongs to the Palestinians. They are hugely oppressive and are hated by the rest of the Middle East.

The US and UK have always shown support for Israel, hence why the rest of the Middle East depise America and Britain, hence the terrorist attacks.

EDIT: Reinforcing on what Omri Evron has said, I am not anti-Jews or anti-Israel, I just despise the oppressive state of Israel and their continued persecution of the Palestinians.

[yulives]

I agree with Omri Evron. I think that kicking all Jews from Israel is basicly the same thing that Jewish nationalists want to do with Palestinians. Everybody has a right to live there. Even if the creation of the state of Israel was wrong, its destruction would be even worse. After all, most Jews that live there now did not move there, but were born there, and Israel is their home now, just like it is for the Palestinians that live there. Kicking them out means that they have to pay for something that was commited by their ancestors, not by themselves. I think that its the stupid, retarded nationalism that is preventing people there to live in peace, the same situation as there is in many other parts of the world. With that said, I must also say that, even though it may be nationalistic and everything, I still support the Palestinian resistance, because I believe that any nation has a right to resist occupation. After all, if my ancestors would not resist German occupation, I wouldnt be typing this. But that resistance must be directed only against the Israeli war machine, imo, because I believe that there simply cannot be an excuse for killing unarmed civilians.

[Omri Evron]

OK now I read some more...

1. I can personally guaranty to anyone who doubts it that the Palestinian farmers are not compensated for the land theft done by the Apartheid Wall. The majority of the "separation barrier" is made up of a series of three fences and is about a hundred meters wide, meaning it destroys even more land. Yeepe! There isn't so much concrete, I'm sure it makes life so much better.

2. Walls and fences cannot achieve security for Israel, only a just peace can, and by being an obstacle for this peace it only worsens the problem. You need to remember that there is a fence around Gaza for many years already, and nobody can say there is less terrorism in Gaza. As long as the occupation remains and peace isn't achieved there will be more terrorists- and if there is a wall in the way they'll dig under it, clime it or shoot missiles over it (like what's being done in Gaza). In addition, the Aparthied Wall was built for Zionist-political reasons and not security ones. Because the Israeli government is so obsessed with stealing Palestinian lands the Wall goes deeply into the West Bank in order to insure there won't be a Palestinian State. Thus the wall is about twice as long as the Green Line border and about a quarter million Palestinians live on the "Israeli" side of the Wall- which strategically is idiotic. It just creates more desperation and hatred which fuel the terrorism directed against Israelis. I personally know many families who lost their only source of income because of the Wall, and they have no idea how they'll survive.

3. The Overwhelming majority of the Palestinian people want an independent and democratic secular state in the 67' borders alongside Israel, and are not crazy "Islamofascists" (WTF?) who want to murder Jews. It is the position of the PLO since the late 1980's, as well as an overwhelming majority of the Palestinians.

4. Israel isn't a fascist state (at-least not yet), but it is a racist and colonialist state that maintains a military occupation over millions of people and commits many war crimes.

5. Palestinians who are Israeli citizens are discriminated. In budgets, in the education system (in which the segregation is most profound), and Israel still steals more of their lands and tries to implement the Zionist policy of "maximum Jews on maximum land, minimum Arabs on minimum land"- also inside Israel.

6. It is true that there was never a Palestinian state… so? All states were new sometime. Does this mean there are no Palestinians or that they don't deserve independence?

7. Israel is, atleast in a military sense, much more powerful than the Palestinians… which really isn't an important point. It is also true that there are many more Arabs in the Middle East, who I guess are together probably more powerful than Israel. This only makes it so important for the Israelis to end the occupation and achieve peace (as all Arab countries support the two state solution and announced they'll sign peace treaties with Israel once it returns to the 67' borders- except Libya which supports a bi-national state).
Anyway, the point isn't who's stronger- the point is that Israel is the ruling power in control of the territories & both people, so the Israeli government has the power to end the occupation and make peace. Does this mean all the Palestinian leaders and militants are absolutely great and wonderful people? No. But the truth remains that one country is ruling another people by force.

A good website to look for more info about the Occupied Territories:
http://www.btselem.org/English/

[Reuben]

i havent really seen you here before omri evron. A very warm welcome to revleft comrade!

[Suburban_Guerrilla]

Okocim, how can you call yourself a Marxist-Leninist with a straight face? The only explanation I can think of is that you have a Jewish family who have convinced you to oppose the rights of oppressed minorities in the name of Judaism. No true Marxist would ever defend an imperial puppet state.

[TheAdlerian]

Isn't the bottomline here the fact that the concept of "jews" and "Israel" is nothing more than a religious fantasy that is imperial in nature? Such people do not have the "right" to exist the point of their existence is to prove how much better they are than all other people (the religion says that).

That being said, it's a tough situation because I do not want to see the average person there killed.

[KC]

The issue is not to be against Israel, and certainly not against Jews, but against the brutal military occupation forced on the Palestinian people by the state of Israel.

Uh, "Israel itself is the brutal military occupation forced on the Palestinian people".


Opposing the Occupation is also the interest of the Israeli people, the majority of whom really want to live in peace, so it is not being anti-Israeli.

The people living in Israel won't be able to live in peace until Israel no longer exists.


When I say I'm an anti-Zionist I'm obviously not suggesting to throw all the Jews out of Israel.

Nobody's suggesting that.


I think that kicking all Jews from Israel is basicly the same thing that Jewish nationalists want to do with Palestinians.

Who even suggested this? We support the destruction of the state of Israel, not the persecution against Jews. You're completely blurring the issue here.


Even if the creation of the state of Israel was wrong, its destruction would be even worse.

Perhaps for the imperialists, but for the people as a whole it would be very beneficial.


After all, most Jews that live there now did not move there, but were born there, and Israel is their home now, just like it is for the Palestinians that live there. Kicking them out means that they have to pay for something that was commited by their ancestors, not by themselves. I think that its the stupid, retarded nationalism that is preventing people there to live in peace, the same situation as there is in many other parts of the world.

You're completely confusing the destruction of Israel with the displacement of the people currently living there. These two aren't nearly the same thing and considering them to be the same thing is just fucking ridiculous.

[yulives]

Originally posted by Zampanò@April 09, 2007 04:08 pm

The issue is not to be against Israel, and certainly not against Jews, but against the brutal military occupation forced on the Palestinian people by the state of Israel.

Uh, "Israel itself is the brutal military occupation forced on the Palestinian people".


Opposing the Occupation is also the interest of the Israeli people, the majority of whom really want to live in peace, so it is not being anti-Israeli.

The people living in Israel won't be able to live in peace until Israel no longer exists.


When I say I'm an anti-Zionist I'm obviously not suggesting to throw all the Jews out of Israel.

Nobody's suggesting that.


I think that kicking all Jews from Israel is basicly the same thing that Jewish nationalists want to do with Palestinians.

Who even suggested this? We support the destruction of the state of Israel, not the persecution against Jews. You're completely blurring the issue here.


Even if the creation of the state of Israel was wrong, its destruction would be even worse.

Perhaps for the imperialists, but for the people as a whole it would be very beneficial.


After all, most Jews that live there now did not move there, but were born there, and Israel is their home now, just like it is for the Palestinians that live there. Kicking them out means that they have to pay for something that was commited by their ancestors, not by themselves. I think that its the stupid, retarded nationalism that is preventing people there to live in peace, the same situation as there is in many other parts of the world.

You're completely confusing the destruction of Israel with the displacement of the people currently living there. These two aren't nearly the same thing and considering them to be the same thing is just fucking ridiculous.
I think you misuderstood me, because I actualy agree with you on most of the points. I believe that there are many Arab nationalists that would want to see Jews get kicked out of Israel, but I do not even remotely support that. Basicly, I think that everybody has the right to live there, no matter what the state that exists there is called (if any state should exist there at all). Whatever it is, it should treat all of its citizens equaly. I might have confused the destructtion of the state of Israel with the displacment of the people, so allow me to correct myself: displacing of the people is what Im against, not the destruction of the state of Israel.

[graffic]

Something which WE have, something which Israelis have, but something which many Palestinians don't have!

Something which the Israelis would not have if you had your deluded pro-Muslim way, and the nation of Israel was given to Palestine.

[KC]

Something which the Israelis would not have if you had your deluded pro-Muslim way, and the nation of Israel was given to Palestine.

Anti-zionism isn't "pro-Muslim" you fucking nut.

[graffic]

I don't. You, however, are defending Israel's actions. This just exposes your bias, hypocrisy and pro-Israeli double-standards. Israel can drop bombs and kill Palestinian kids, but Arab extremists can't blow themselves up and do the same? Either it's wrong or it's right.

Theres a difference there, the fact that Palestinian children are being killed is atrocious, but what do you expect the Israeli army to do?

Israel is not trying to harm Women and Children, its trying to fight and stop the terroists who continuely attack and provoke Israel, because they hate the Jews so much.

Islamic terroists hide among ordinary working Palestinian civilians making it extremely hard for the Israeli army to fight the terroists - resulting in appauling scenes. Terroists on the other hand - want to create terror within ordinary people, they target innocent civilians.

[graffic]

Originally posted by Tommy-[email protected] 09, 2007 11:33 am
Israel continue to occupy Palestinian land which rightfully belongs to the Palestinians. They are hugely oppressive and are hated by the rest of the Middle East.

Why does the land rightfully belong to Palestinians?

[KC]

Theres a difference there, the fact that Palestinian children are being killed is atrocious, but what do you expect the Israeli army to do?

Israel is not trying to harm Women and Children

IDF Forces Use Palestinian Civilians As Human Shields (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,867343,00.html)
IDF Forces Use Palestinian Civilians As Human Shields (http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp)
IDF Forces Use Palestinian Civilians As Human Shields (http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0309/p99s01-duts.html)

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/children_by_year-lg.gif
Source (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/children.html)

“The majority of these [Palestinian] children were killed and injured while going about normal daily activities, such as going to school, playing, shopping, or simply being in their homes. Sixty-four percent of children killed during the first six months of 2003 died as a result of Israeli air and ground attacks, or from indiscriminate fire from Israeli soldiers.”
- Catherine Cook

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/deaths.gif
Source (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html)

86% of Palestinian deaths are either civilians or children.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/homes_chart.gif
Source (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/homes.html)


“During the course of the al-Aqsa intifada, which began in September 2000, Israel has implemented a policy of mass demolition of Palestinian houses in the Occupied Territories. In that period, Israel has destroyed some 4,170 Palestinian homes.

“The IDF carries out three types of house demolitions. Most are carried out in the framework of what Israel calls ‘clearing operations,’ which are intended to meet what Israel defines as ‘military needs.’ These operations take place primarily in the Gaza Strip: along the Egyptian border, which passes through Rafah and its refugee camps; around settlements and army posts; alongside roads used by settlers and IDF forces; and in the northern part of the Gaza Strip [...]

“The second type of demolition are administrative demolitions of houses built without a permit. These demolitions take place in Area C in the West Bank, where Israel retains authority over planning and building even after the establishment of the Palestinian Authority, and in East Jerusalem. [...]

“The third kind of house demolitions are those intended to punish the relatives and neighbors of Palestinians who carried out or are suspected of involvement in attacks against Israeli civilians or soldiers. These punitive demolitions are intended for the homes in which these suspects lived. However, in many cases, adjacent homes are also destroyed.”

I think it's pretty obvious that the claim that Israel is "just defending itself" is complete bullshit, especially when looking at these figures. Keep in mind that the IDF considers children throwing rocks "terrorists" and will shoot to kill. The funny thing is that only 118 Israeli children and 704 Israeli civilians were killed since 2000, while only 6 members of the IDF died in 2005 due to terror incidents. The majority of IDF deaths are actually due to suicide. It's quite obvious that "terrorism" is a relatively minor threat to Israel, especially when compared with the state-sponsored terrorism of the IDF.


ts trying to fight and stop the terroists who continuely attack and provoke Israel

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bgoodsel/post911/2002pix/boy-against-tank.jpg

Look, it's a terrorist! He's provoking us! Shoot him and bulldoze his family's house!


because they hate the Jews so much.

Oh please. Don't try to fucking guilt trip here. Anti-zionism isn't the same as anti-semitism at all, and saying they are is just bullshit and shows how much of a complete idiot you are.


Terroists on the other hand - want to create terror within ordinary people, they target innocent civilians.

Sounds like the IDF!

“The third kind of house demolitions are those intended to punish the relatives and neighbors of Palestinians who carried out or are suspected of involvement in attacks against Israeli civilians or soldiers. These punitive demolitions are intended for the homes in which these suspects lived. However, in many cases, adjacent homes are also destroyed.”


Why does the land rightfully belong to Palestinians?

It rightfully belonged to those living there before the illegal invasion and subsequent illegal occupation that has been going on for 60 years.

EDIT: Let's add this as well, to show that Israel isn't just "defending itself" but has definite, expansionist tendencies which are quite obvious and relatively indefensible from a Zionist's point of view:

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/media/landloss.gif
Expand (http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/media/landloss.gif)

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by Okocim+April 09, 2007 12:38 am--> (Okocim @ April 09, 2007 12:38 am)
[email protected] 08, 2007 08:03 pm
The source for your facts is a Zionist propaganda site. It was classified as a Pro-Israel advocacy and watchdog sites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict#External_links)in wikipedia.

so prove the pictures and facts are wrong then, rather than throwing your dummy in the corner and calling me an arsehole.

the simple fact remains: you can't.

:lol: [/b]
Well I called you an asshole for your statement that palestine was a no man's land before. You have made that statement without any factual sources.

Yes your source is a Zionist propaganda site. I have just exposed your hypocrisy.

The pictures and facts are really wrong. EwokUtopia had explained to me. Since you are so much interested Here is the page that demolishes your "Sources" (http://www.stopthewall.org/)

[RNK]

Why does the land rightfully belong to Palestinians?

The geographical land given the political monicker of "Palestine" belongs to no one; however, there were millions of Arabs who made a living off the land through agriculture, who'se mode of living were subsequently destroyed by Israeli annexation and takeover. Arabs who had tilled and grown the land for hundreds of years suddenly found themselves being herded into trucks and sent to relocation and refugee camps, and their farms and homes being taken over or demolished by jewish settlers immigrating from around the world.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2007 04:50 pm
Why does the land rightfully belong to Palestinians?
As Anarchists and Communists, we oppose the idea of land ownership, but while it is a fact in the world we live in, we must respect all peoples rights to live on the land where they were born. The land belongs to the Palestinians because they have lived there for centuries, and are essentially a mix of all peoples who have lived in that land over the last 3000 years. As a people, they are more Arabized than actually Arabian. "Arab" is a linguistic ethnicity, and you dont have to be an Arabian to be an Arab. The Palestinians are an Arab speaking people, but they are also their own individual culture. Anyone who tells you different is a stupid fucking ignoramus who cant tell Morrocco from Yemen.

The Isreali's too have every right to live there. I would actually hope that when the occupation ends, and the state is replaced by a non-exclusive state, Israeli's and Palestinians will move around, and intermarry until a new culture is born. Thats essentially how Palestine has worked for the last 2000 years.

Anyway, we also look foreward to a stateless future. So, we do oppose Israel, even if it didnt have an occupation, but we also oppose every entity that sets up a flag and divides people by an imaginary line on the map. The concept of nationhood must die a peaceful death if this species is to survive. We need to outgrow nationalism, or we will suffer its consequences, and we can hardly afford to do that on a big scale again in this day and age.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

It's no use replying to "graffic", who is obviously a pathetic Zionist troll, probably sent here by the extensive Zionist propaganda network on the Internet.



No, I'm not saying this is a "Jewish conspiracy", but YES, the Zionists have been known to set up online groups to influence discussions on forums and polls during the Israeli-Lebanon war.

graffic has already let slip so many proofs that he/she/it is one of those Zionist trolls.


I will respond to Okocim, however, who has the audacity to claim to be a Marxist-Leninist and then throw the most pathetic arguments at us.


Okocim:



before you all start ranting about the rights of the "palestinians" to that land maybe you should look into history and see exactly what was there before Israel rather than simply swallowing all these lies you are fed without question.

It was a province of the Ottoman Empire, and Arabs and Middle-Eastern Jews lived there in peace.

Following World War 1, it became a Mandate-territory of Britain, and Jewish immigration from Europe and elsewhere started in large numbers.

In 1948, the Jewish settlers proclaimed an independent Jewish state and when the surrounding Arab states attacked them, they began to kick out Palestinian Arabs from Israel, in an effort to make that territory into a Jewish-majority state.




I'm currently studying the middle - eastern crisis, and I'm interested to know why people on the far-left demonize Israel.

because they've found a bandwagon full of misogynistic, homophobic, religious zealots and just jumped on it?

Misogyny? Homophobia? Religioius zealotry? What do any of these three have to do with the Apartheid-state of Israel?

Are you just trying to throw accusations and demonize your opponents in this argument?




Take the wall for example. This is deliberately enclosing the Palestinians within the West Bank and encroaching on Palestinian farmland.

the "wall" you so often demonise is actually 97% a chain link fence.

It was put there to stop suicide bombers killing innocent civilians and has worked incredibly successfully.

anywhere it goes onto palestinian farmland the farmers are compensated well.

Comrade Omri has already responded to that pathetic argument.





Within the state of Israel, Palestinians are treated as second class citizens and land the Palestinians legally held after the 1947 Partition plan was illegally seized by Israel in 1967.


prove it. they have the exact same rights as any other citizen.

Does it matter when the Arab majority in Palestine was turned into an Arab minority?

The Jewish majority in Israel was created by forcibly throwing out Arab inhabitants in the first Arab-Israeli war.

Now, even if a few Arabs remain in Israel, what difference does it make if they're granted "equal rights as citizens"?



and please, before you give me a long list of lies, try to verify whether they're actual facts or not first. I'm sick of the kind of lies you use to justify your stance.

Likewise. Before you come to defend the Apartheid-state of Israel, try to read up on basic Middle-Eastern history.

[BreadBros]

prove it. they have the exact same rights as any other citizen.

and please, before you give me a long list of lies, try to verify whether they're actual facts or not first. I'm sick of the kind of lies you use to justify your stance.

Theres a difference between on-paper rights and in-reality rights. In reality Arabs within Israel face discrimination and lower economic opportunities. The international NGO "Minorities at Risk" notes considerable anti-Arab structural discrimination within Israel. Theres also a bit of clashing logic. Israel is a Jewish state, ostensibly made for Jewish immigrants to come to. However, the Arab minority is growing at a faster rate than the Jewish one and immigration to Israel has dipped to lower levels. What would happen in an evenly balanced or Arab-majority Israel? The nature of a "Jewish state" implies this is a contradiction. Either the Arab majority would be considerably disenfranchised or the very nature of the Jewish state would have to be changed.

Of course thats only if were talking about the 1.5 million Arabs within Israel proper with citizenship. Obviously for the 4 million or so West Bank and Gaza Arabs the situation is far more grim as they are under military occupation and many of them still live in refugee camps.


and before that? and before that?

no country ever known as "Palestine" has existed there.

Thats because no nation-state has ever existed there before. Prior to the British Mandate it was a province of the Ottoman Empire. However, if you're arguing that the notion of that geographic area being called "Palestine" being new then you are factually wrong. The term "Palestine" originates from the Biblical Philistines who populated the area in ancient times, the area (along with parts of Jordan) was part of the Byzantine Palastina province and as far as the 19th Century the area was known as the "Land of Palestine" province under the Ottoman empire.


no, you anti-Israel, pro-homophobia/theocratic nations types usually don't care that before the 60s no "palestinian" people existed or about that fact that "palestine" has never existed. I didn't expect you to care because you're the ones supporting the lying religious zealots.

Actually, as I just demonstrated, the name Palestine goes back to ancient origins and in the modern era has been in use since the 19th century. It certainly has been used prior to "the 60s", especially by the British and Zionist settlers in recent times. Regardless, most Marxists support the right of self-determination. That means people have the freedom for autonomy and deciding what identity they adopt for themselves in terms of national identification. The history post-1947 (and even post-1960 if you prefer) of the group of people who identify themselves as Palestinians in the modern day is considerably different enough from their neighbors that its no shock they would adopt a specific national identity. After suffering massacres at the hands of other Arab states (particularly the Western-supported Jordanian monarchy) you really expect them to adopt some sort of pan-Arabism let alone Jordanian or Syrian identity?


the refugees of what? the non-existent and never existent "palestine"?

Absurd. Palestine has been a commonly accepted name for the area for centuries now, accepted even by Britain, the US, Israel, et. al. Regardless of what you prefer to call it, it is undeniable that there were several million individuals living in what is now the state of Israel who were pushed out of their lands and assumed international refugee status. That fact is not even contested by the most right-wing of Israeli politicians (including Revionist Zionist parties like Yisrael Beytenu that advocate forced transfer), so it is really telling that this is the point you harp on.

Unless you think the fact that they are stateless refugees somehow makes them special and not worthy of defense? If so then I take it you are ideologically consistent and are of the opinion that the Holocaust/Shoah was completely legal under international law and intervention into it represents a violation of law? After all, those Jews all had their citizenship revoked, so they were really refugees of a "never existent" country, just like the Palestinians under your rubric.


land taken from who? "palestinians" who didn't exist before the 60's?

Arabs if you prefer? I fail to see how changing what you call them changes the dynamics of what happened?


occupiers of what? land which has never belonged to a nation known as "palestine" because a nation known as "palestine" has never existed?

Newsflash: the nation-state came into invention in 1789 and its really only made its way all over the world in the early part of the 20th century. Most of those African states that exist today? Get this, they didn't exist before the 1950s-1960s. Get this, the Czech Republic? Didn't exist before 1993(!). The world has only relatively recently emerged from a series of subsequent massive imperial and colonial expansions and ergo most nation-states are nascent. A Palestinian nation-state has never existed, before the 1940s-1950s neither had a Lebanese, Jewish, Syrian, Iraqi, et. al. one existed either.

As for the idea that the Palestinians are merely "Arabs". As I've said, people don't choose their national identity based on mere ethnicity (which is a vague term in itself) but rather on a series of complex historical factors that are often out of those people's hands entirely. This may come as a shock to you but the dominant white majorities in Canada, the US, Great Britain and Australia are ethnically fairly similar. Do you propose they be forced to unite into one country? If Australians can declare some historical aspect that makes them unique from Britons then why can't Palestinians do the same from other Arabs? Particularly when they're history has often been contentious with other Arab states? This argument is usually busted out by those who hope to use this type of logic to force the Palestinians to accept re-settlement in Jordan or Syria to facilitate a land-grab. Its a shady argument that has no basis in history nor logic. Its the equivalent of France invading the UK and telling the population to move to the US since after all, arent the two population groups fairly similar? Whats the problem? :rolleyes:


you support self-determination of a nation which was never actually a nation? how the fuck does that work?

Why would a country espouse or even NEED the concept of self-determination if it was already a nation? The principle is that people should have state autonomy wherever they are, for whatever reason they are. Not merely that conquered states should be re-granted autonomy (which only apply to a minute # of states like Poland and Austria).


In the 60s the Arabs (not "palestinians") living in the area wanted self-determination so started to claim they were a seperate nation in an attempt to gain this. people fell for it and we see the result in you lot today.

"Palestinians" and "Palestine" have never existed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1759_ma...d_12_Tribes.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1759_map_Holy_Land_and_12_Tribes.jpg) - 1759 map depicting the province of Palestina.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6...b_Palestine.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/64/Medieval_Arab_Palestine.jpg) - 1890 map depicting Filistina (phonetic translation of Arabic word for Palestine).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria_Palaest....E2.80.93220_CE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria_Palaestina#Late_Roman_Period_II_135.E2.80.93 220_CE) - Brief history on the Late Roman period naming of the province as Syria Palestina.

I could provide more if you want. Its somewhat ironic that you call us "liars" when so far nearly everything you said has been discredited by facts.


so....your position is basially arguing for self-determination of a nation and people which has never existed? unsure.gif

so if me and some mates were to decide to make ourselves into a little clique do you think in 30 years time people would be screaming hate against a state for our "right" to the land?

No, because you're a Leninist Zionist moron. However if you want a modern example of a country that has never existed prior to it's recent movement and that shares a common ethnic history with a neighboring peoples but which presses for national self-determination, look at Taiwan.


People who are anti-Israel are saying Israel has no right to exist because they belive in Internationalism etc. Then at the same time your arguing that Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land!

Both countries are also bourgeois states which are both enemies of the working class.

There is no Palestinian state so I don't see how you can declare it bourgeois. There is very little of a Palestinian bourgeois actually left in Palestine, most of them have long since gone international and established business enterprises in Latin America, Europe, etc.


And did you know Arab nationalists also collaborated with the Nazis. Hell, everybody collaborated with everyone, your friend today is your enemy tomorrow, the important point is to put down the proles whichever way you can.

Actually most Arab nationalists were probably most in admiration of the US or the USSR than any other regime prior to the establishment of Israel and the involvement of the US in politics. It is true that some Arab leaders supported Germany in both World Wars I and II. It was, however, a product of anti-French and anti-British sentiment (as both of those countries were colonial rulers of the Mideast at the time). The hope was that German successes would destabilize France and UK and force them to abandon their imperialist projects in the Mideast. The idea that it had anything to do with "put[ting] down the proles" is a complete obfuscation of historical facts.


Theres a difference there, the fact that Palestinian children are being killed is atrocious, but what do you expect the Israeli army to do?

Israel is not trying to harm Women and Children, its trying to fight and stop the terroists who continuely attack and provoke Israel, because they hate the Jews so much.

Right, its because they hate the Jews :rolleyes:. Hmm, lets see, Jews and Arabs live in peace for centuries. Israel is created, land is taken from the Arabs and several territories are put under military occupation. Anti-Israeli violence ensues. Of course...it MUST be because they hate the Jews so much! Yep, irrational hatred! It wouldn't make sense that it would have to do with Israel right? I mean, the two events correlate, one is the logical causation of the other and the historical record supports that they actually are fighting Israel for geopolitical reasons as opposed to canards about anti-Semitism.......but nah, thats way too messy and dangerous a conclusion to come to, right? ;)

I'm not sure if this is intentional denial for political reasons or you actually believe these tropes, but, as Omri Evon points out, until you realize the political realities of your situation and accept them you will never be safe. History repeatedly proves that a misunderstanding of historical forces can only result in faulty logic and therefore an unintended outcome.



Why does the land rightfully belong to Palestinians?

Maybe because they've been living and working on it for centuries?

General Post: In the preceding posts I've assumed good faith and assumed that these posters have referred to Palestinians "not existing" they are simply referring to the lack of existence of a Palestinian state. If I'm wrong and they are actually implying that the historical region of Palestine was relatively unpopulated at the time of Zionist settlement then this topic has been extensively debated in academia. Joan Peter's From Time Immemorial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Time_Immemorial) argues precisely such a thesis. This has been extensively analyzed by Norman Finkelstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein_on_From_Time_Immemorial#Finkels tein_on_From_Time_Immemorial) who has unsurprisingly concluded and extensively documented that this book is a massive example of fraud and at best a hoax, a view accepted by 'Foreign Affairs' and other mainstream publications.

[RNK]

In 1948, the Jewish settlers proclaimed an independent Jewish state and when the surrounding Arab states attacked them, they began to kick out Palestinian Arabs from Israel, in an effort to make that territory into a Jewish-majority state.

Infact, there were ideas and plans to eject Arabs from the land dating as far back as the late 1800s. During the 30s and early 40s there was extensive discussion of it by zionists and early immigrants, and these plans were initiated as soon as Israel came into existence. Their plans involved everything from swamping communities with Jewish settlers to essentially assimilate land, to destroying Arab communities and farms and allowing settlers to rebuild their own homes over it, to armed intimidation to get Arabs to flee out of fear, to actual invasion by armed forces who forced Arabs into trucks and shipped them to refugee camps in eastern Palestine and western Jordan and Syria.

[RNK]

Also, for more information, look up the "Transfer Committees" as well as zionist intellectuals like Yosef Weitz.

Here are some quotes from Yosef Weitz. They're fairly self-explanatory. The first three are from pre-Israel days. The others are after 1948.


"...the transfer of Arab population from the area of the Jewish state does not serve only one aim--to diminish the Arab population. It also serves a second, no less important, aim which is to advocate land presently held and cultivated by the Arabs and thus to release it for Jewish inhabitants." - Expulsion of the Palestinians


"it must be clear that there is no room in the country for both peoples . . . If the Arabs leave it, the country will become wide and spacious for us . . . The only solution is a Land of Israel, at least a western land of Israel, without Arabs. There is no room here for compromises . . . There is no way but to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer all of them, save perhaps for Bethlehem, Nazareth, and the old Jerusalem. Not one village must be left, not one tribe. The transfer must be directed at Iraq, Syria, and even Transjordan. For this goal funds will be found . . . An only after this transfer will the country be able to absorb millions of our brothers and the Jewish problem will cease to exist. There is no other solution." - Expulsion of the Palestinians


"Once again I come face to face with the land settlement difficulties that emanate from the existence of two people in close proximity . . . . We have clashing interests with the Arabs everywhere, and these interests will go and clash increasingly. . . . and once again the answer from inside me is heard: only population transfer and evacuating this country so it would become exclusively for us is the solution. This idea does not leave me in these days and I find comfort in it in the face of enormous difficulties in the way of land-buying and settlement." - Expulsion of the Palestinians


"Our army is steadily conquering Arab villages and their inhabitants afraid and fleeing like mice. You have no idea what happened in the Arab villages. It is enough that during the night several shells will whistle over them and they flee for their lives. Villages are steadily emptying, and if we continue on this course --and we shall certainly do so as our strength increases-- then villages will empty of their inhabitants." - Israel: A History


"If the policy want is that they should not be allowed to return, there is no need to cultivate land beyond what is needed for our existence. It is possible that Jews would be settled in some abandoned villages and that there are villages that should be destroyed so that they do not attract their refugees to return. What can be bought should be bought . . . first we must set policy: Arabs who abandoned should not return." - Benny Morris

Yosef Weitz was a colleague of David Ben-Gurion (first PM of Israel) and heavily connected with the pre-israel zionist movement and the Israeli cabinet after 1948.

[Fascist-Hunter]

Israel is not trying to harm Women and Children, its trying to fight and stop the terroists who continuely attack and provoke Israel, because they hate the Jews so much. Islamic terroists hide among ordinary working Palestinian civilians making it extremely hard for the Israeli army to fight the terroists - resulting in appauling scenes. Terroists on the other hand - want to create terror within ordinary people, they target innocent civilians.

Graffic: people here on this board have already explained that for you. In a situation where you find yourself confronted with hightech military etc. while you only have an oldschool machinegun like an ak47 and no tanks, jets etc. no military infrastructure, no army behind you... what would you do??? the hamas operates from certain areas where civilians live, because there is no other way; thats how partisan techniques work. the military attacks these villages and are therefore seen as killers by the people in these areas. of course hamas wants to show the israely soldiers in a bad light. what else could they do ??? they cannot win a direct fight with the third (or fourth? not really sure) strongest army in the world.

okocim: You say it is mostly a fence and not a wall... ok. So what? Does it make a difference? it will not solve the problems.

[RNK]

it will not solve the problems.

Agreed. It will only alleviate the symptoms. But the underlying cause remains.

Neither Arabs nor Jews have any "more legitimate" right to the geographical designation of "Israel" or "Palestine". We can only analyse the situation based on fact -- and that fact is that Arabs were forcefully removed from their homes, their farms, and their livelihoods, and are continually being forced away to this day. Israel has a formidable military with which to enforce its agenda, a military that is backed up by the most imperialist country on the planet. Its forces are state institutions supposedly run by a democratic constitution; it, not Hamas, not street-level vigilantes, bear the full burden of responsibility for their own actions, for they are by far the more powerful and more dominant force. The Palestinian Authority has not had the capability to so much as guard a police station, let alone attempt to create some sort of secure society; the Palestinian state infastructure, everything from police stations to government offices to electricity and power plants have been continuously destroyed by Israel as "retribution"; they are trying to force Palestine to reign in their extremists by destroying them. Tell me, if you kill all police, destroy all government institutions and arrest all officials and leaders, how exactly is a government supposed to do.. well, anything?

[Enragé]

It's no use replying to "graffic", who is obviously a pathetic Zionist troll, probably sent here by the extensive Zionist propaganda network on the Internet.

lol wtf are you serious what are we on stormfront all of a sudden? :P

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 03:20 pm
lol wtf are you serious what are we on stormfront all of a sudden? :P
Thats the problem with Neo-Nazi's using the word "Zionism". Zionists dont really give a fuck about stupid white kids who still believe in Russian Orthodox fabricated propaganda. They dont know what Zionism is, so they dont care. But, there are trolls following idealogies who will come to any website. Im certain at least one stormfronter is going to read these words, and probably alot of pro-Israel advocats as well. He wasnt "sent here" by anyone, real zionist organizations dont concern themselves with the rhetoric of a few guys on the internet. They are much bigger into starting counter-protests and filtering the media. Yes, Zionists filter the media, but this is NOT the same as saying "Jews control the media". In America, you will find that most Zionists there are WASP Christian Fundies. I much preffer the "Jewish Media" to the "Christian Media" anyways. Jewish Zionism in the media isnt nearly as radical as Pat Robertson or Bill O'Reilly or that shit.

Christian Zionism is a scary and powerful idealogical force in this continent, we must remember that not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews. Hell, those types of Zionists are anti-semitic at that. They support Israel to fulfil biblical prophesy and finally get Jesus Christ to come back already, after which point the Jews can either accept Christ as the Lord, or burn in hell for ever and ever. Thats the Zionism that controls the beliefs of most anti-Palestinian advocates in this continent, and its a scary fucking thing.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 03:20 pm

It's no use replying to "graffic", who is obviously a pathetic Zionist troll, probably sent here by the extensive Zionist propaganda network on the Internet.

lol wtf are you serious what are we on stormfront all of a sudden? :P
I was referring to stuff like THIS. (http://giyus.org/)

:)

[MarxistFuture]

Originally posted by Spirit of Spartacus+April 11, 2007 10:37 am--> (Spirit of Spartacus @ April 11, 2007 10:37 am)
[email protected] 10, 2007 03:20 pm

It's no use replying to "graffic", who is obviously a pathetic Zionist troll, probably sent here by the extensive Zionist propaganda network on the Internet.

lol wtf are you serious what are we on stormfront all of a sudden? :P
I was referring to stuff like THIS. (http://giyus.org/)

:) [/b]
I've got to say, that is absolutely pathetic.

I can't actually believe that is true.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

And HERE (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1952099,00.html), you can read a Guardian article on the efforts of the Zionist reactionaries to influence world opinion regarding their crimes.


The Zionist reactionaries are merely part of a wider web of imperialist lies and deceit.

[Chicano Shamrock]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 11:00 am
the Korahn is riddled with anti-semitism, the middle east is a melting pot for this sort of stuff
How is that so? Arabs are Semites too.

Semitic (from the Biblical "Shem", Hebrew: שם, translated as "name", Arabic: ساميّ) was first used to refer to a language family of largely Middle Eastern origin, now called the Semitic languages. This family includes the ancient and modern forms of Amharic, Arabic, Aramaic, Akkadian, Ge'ez, Hebrew, Maltese, Tigre and Tigrinya among others.


You are riddled with zionist propaganda. Afro-Americans were prosecuted too does that give them the right to go to Ethiopia and start bombing the Ethiopians?

Watch these quick videos. They are in order.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77dSD9m65LU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TnSJ2B1pZA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sVDZmvyTFY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLJFgrL7LU0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnG5_0ATdVI

[KC]

How is that so? Arabs are Semites too.

Regardless of how semitic is defined, anti-semitism is defined as specifically hatred against jews.

[Chicano Shamrock]

Originally posted by Zampanò@April 11, 2007 04:06 pm

How is that so? Arabs are Semites too.

Regardless of how semitic is defined, anti-semitism is defined as specifically hatred against jews.
And communism is defined as a Communist state like the USSR. Whatever the definition is does not matter. The word means what it says. Anti-Semite. Semites are jews and arabs.

[Fascist-Hunter]

the Korahn is riddled with anti-semitism, the middle east is a melting pot for this sort of stuff

so what? you will find tons of antisemtism in christianity too. and of course anti-islamic stuff in jewish religion.

that is the problem which every religion has, no matter which one we are talking about. if there is only one ultimate truth and one god (may his Name be Jahwe, HaSchem or Allah or whatever), there is no space for another ultimate truth.

that doesn't necessarily mean that people cannot live together; it worked for along time.

[KC]

And communism is defined as a Communist state like the USSR. Whatever the definition is does not matter. The word means what it says. Anti-Semite. Semites are jews and arabs.

Uh, that's not the same thing at all. Anti-semitic means hatred against Jews. That's what it means. Why don't you go study the history of the word before coming up with another smartass reply?

[EwokUtopia]

Anti-Semitism, Anti-Arabism....why not just call a spade a spade?

Racism is Racism is Racism, and thats all there is to that....lets not denegrate to a shouting match over words. Hatred of Jews is every bit as bad as hatred of any other ethnicity, no more no less...And before anyone pulls out the old "Well they died in the Holocaust, so racism against them is much more dangerous" bit, I will remind you that yes, they did die in the Holocaust, but they werent the only ones. I dont see anyone here too hung up on Anti-Zyganism or Anti-Slavism, which both killed millions in the holocaust. A person is a person, and the 6 million Jewish deaths in the holocaust are no more tragic than the 5-7 million non-Jewish deaths.

So can we not just call it racism? Is that word not strong enough?

[Okocim]

Originally posted by Fascist-[email protected] 12, 2007 03:10 am
so what? you will find tons of antisemtism in christianity too. and of course anti-islamic stuff in jewish religion.
despite Judaism being around a long time before Islam came onto the scene? :blink:


I'll get back to the other lies later.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

the Korahn is riddled with anti-semitism, the middle east is a melting pot for this sort of stuff

The Koran is not specifically anti-Semitic.

The Koran is "anti-Semitic" within a certain context.

Muhammad and the new Muslim community often had a relationship marked with conflict with the Jewish tribes in Arabia...which was more of a social phenomenon at that time.

There were tussles between the impoverished Arabs and the landed Jews.

The Koran reflects these tensions, of course. But its not correct to say that its "riddled" with anti-Semitism.

[Reuben]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 09:41 am
Anti-Semitism, Anti-Arabism....why not just call a spade a spade?

Racism is Racism is Racism, and thats all there is to that....lets not denegrate to a shouting match over words. Hatred of Jews is every bit as bad as hatred of any other ethnicity, no more no less...And before anyone pulls out the old "Well they died in the Holocaust, so racism against them is much more dangerous" bit, I will remind you that yes, they did die in the Holocaust, but they werent the only ones. I dont see anyone here too hung up on Anti-Zyganism or Anti-Slavism, which both killed millions in the holocaust. A person is a person, and the 6 million Jewish deaths in the holocaust are no more tragic than the 5-7 million non-Jewish deaths.

So can we not just call it racism? Is that word not strong enough?
The use of the term anti-semitism does not necessarily have to suggest that anti-Jewish racism is especially bad compared with other forms of racism. It simply refers to specific social and historical movements concerned with attacking and persecuting jewish people. While in some instances it may be useful and preferable to discuss such persecution in more general terms (ie as racism) the quite distinct genealogy of anti-semitism compared with other forms of racism - many of which have been routed in colonialism - makes the terms anti-ssemitism a useful tool of descriptio nand social and historical analysis. To recognise this is not to privelege anti-semitism over other forms of racism.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 10:17 am
despite Judaism being around a long time before Islam came onto the scene? :blink:


I'll get back to the other lies later.
I think what is meant is that some followers of Judaism use their religion to justify hatred of Muslims and other non-Jews. Take the Israeli Settlers for instance. They are by and large a group of fanatics, and even if you are pro-Israel, I doubt even you support these shit disturbers. Many of them believe that the land was given to them by God, and that it is their mission to see it made into a purely Jewish land, that the presence of Arabs and non-Jews sulleys the land. They constantly harrass Palestinian civillians, especially children. They throw rocks at Palestinian windows, and roam the streets with automatic weapons.

And most of them do so out of religious fanaticism.


It would be incorrect to say All of Judaism is anti-Islamic, but it would also be incorrect to say that none of Judaism preaches violence, racism and hatred.

Settler Kids Attack Human Rights Observers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBIcdoOKB9c)
Hebron Settlers attack Internationals and an Israeli Peace Activist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0ZVYO0R4p8&mode=related&search=)
More fucked up settler kids (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mO8CWSam2o)
Drunk ones too (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqlRBnLAn-g)

[Fascist-Hunter]

Mr. Moron, pardon, Mr. Okocim please read again.


so what? you will find tons of antisemtism in christianity too. and of course anti-islamic stuff in jewish religion.

did I say: "You will find tons of anti-islamic stuff in the torah" ?
no, I didn't.

maybe i should have used "within" instead of "in"?
you know whats strange? all the other people here understoood what I was saying.
it seems to me that you just don't want to understand.

You say: there is no wall but a fence
I say: that doesn't matter, the effect is the same.
you: ...

I get the feeling that you don't even know what you are talking about.

@ewok utopia: exactly, thanks for putting it into the right words. :)

[Spirit of Spartacus]

there is no wall but a fence


Hahahaha! That was actually a pathetic attempt to make an injustice sound less wrong simply by playing around with semantics. The argument bases itself on the assumption that its somehow less wrong to build a fence than a wall.

I mean, if it cuts through your land and is patrolled regularly by Israeli troops so that you aren't allowed to cross it, then what difference does it make if its a wall, fence, moat or whatever?

[BreadBros]

Originally posted by Okocim+April 12, 2007 10:17 am--> (Okocim @ April 12, 2007 10:17 am)
Fascist-[email protected] 12, 2007 03:10 am
so what? you will find tons of antisemtism in christianity too. and of course anti-islamic stuff in jewish religion.
despite Judaism being around a long time before Islam came onto the scene? :blink:


I'll get back to the other lies later. [/b]
Have you ever heard of Meir Kahan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Kahane), the Kach and Kahane movements (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kach_and_Kahane_Chai), Kahanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahanism), the Jewish Defense League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League)? Guess what Kach and Kahane is a popular Israeli pro-Zionist, right-wing, anti-Arab/Islamic terrorist groups that are essentially White supremacist in their rhetoric. The JDL is listed as a far-right terrorist group even by the United States and Canada.

[Question everything]

Reasons Israel sucks.

1. Paramilitary Zionists are beating 12 year olds in the street, and breaking into houses. (I can't site an Internet source although it is metioned in 'The Fateful Triangle' by Chomsky)

2. The Israeli police is allowing this to happen.

3. They are invading their neighbours, to try and Return A Nation that existed thousand years ago to it's former status andbring 'God's' chosen people to their holyland.

I got hundreds of reasons why Israel in it's current form is evil

[Revolution Until Victory]

"Its a myth that Palestines are underdogs, its not an Israel-Palestinian war but an Arab-Islamofacist war against Israel. Take a look at the size of Israel compared to its surrounding countrys.
Palestine and its cause is hardly a secular one either, it is far from being multi-ethnic or multi-religious. The Palestine charter is calling for an Arab state (with no Jews allowed) and Islam as the official state religion. Why are no Jews allowed to exist in this state?"

Really??
so the so-called state of Israel, a nuclear superpower with hundreds of nuclear weapons, the most powerful army in the Mid-east, the most powerful army in the entire world, got the best and most powerful tanks in the world (Merkava), got undefeatable airplains (F15, F21, F35), and blindly and unconditionaly supported by the words hyper nuclear super power is NOT stronger than the Palestinians, who are statless people with no army or weapons whatsoever, with only homemade "rockets" or more like steel tubes, and a bunch of old AK-47 held by rag-tag irregular guerillas are as powerful as "Israel"??

this is as logical as zionists can get...

since the begning of the Palestinian cause, the Palestinian struggle for freedom and independence was secular, nationalist, leftist, and even communist. Almost never was it diverted from those prinicpels. Until very recently did the 2 Islamic movement emerge, through "Israel" itself!!
in other words, it wasn't really completley natural.
the largest faction in the PLO is Fateh, a nationalist, secular group, followed by the PFLP, a secular, nationalist, marxit-leninest group.

Here is a link to the Palestinian National Charter; have a good time finding for me where it is "calling for an Arab state (with no Jews allowed) and Islam as the official state religion"

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/plocov.htm

[Question everything]

Even when the PLO was inflicting the most Israeli casualties, the death ratio was still 1 (Israeli): 4 (Palestians)

[Revolution Until Victory]

"the "wall" you so often demonise is actually 97% a chain link fence.
It was put there to stop suicide bombers killing innocent civilians and has worked incredibly successfully.
anywhere it goes onto palestinian farmland the farmers are compensated well."

hardcore liers!

the wall isn't yet compelet. Far from it. and it's NOT know how much of it would exaclty be a wall or a fence. many parts of it are just temproray fences which will be transformed into a wall. Right now, a considrabel amount is wall.
not to mention, that there is absoulotly no difference at all wthere it was a wall, fence, or barrier as long as it stealing land and forcibly seperating families from each others.
you talk as if the wall only occasionly or in isolated cases steals Palestinian lands.
that is another blatant lie.
every single inch of this wall, currently, in built on Palestinian land. Not once inch is built on the Green Line.
you really can't foce the Palestinians to sell their lands and properties against their well to zionist colonizers!
not to metiont the compensation is quiet lower than the actual value.
Palestinains have a right to their property and can't be forced to give it up or sell it.

[Revolution Until Victory]

"prove it. they have the exact same rights as any other citizen."

-it's a crime under the law if you lie about being a jew; however it's perfectly ok to lie about being a muslim, christian, or any other relegion.

- Law of Return (1950)

- the Law of Absentee Property (1950)

- the Law of the State's Property (1951)

- the Law of Citizenship (1952)

- the Status Law (1952)

- the Israel Lands Administration Law (1960)

- the Construction and Building Law (1965)

- and the 2002 temporary law banning marriage between Israelis and Palestinians of the occupied territories.

of course, in practice, Arabs (and oriental and falasha jews) are discriminated against in every form possible.
Falashas live in isolated ghettos and mainly wipe the streets.
Arabs live in ghettos and are discriminated against in all means possible from employment to public services.
Palestinians are at times arrested if they waved the Palestinian flag.
of course, not to mention the occupied terretories.

[Revolution Until Victory]

Aprthied South Africa used the same propaganda.
"South Africa is the only democracy in Africa"
while in fact, they were the only WHITE democracy in Africa
the zionist colony claims to be the only democracy in the Middle East (on paper of couse not in practice) while it's the only JEWISH democracy in the Middle East

all this discusion is about the zionist colony being a democracy in the law and on paper NOT in pracitce.
In practice, not one person in the right mind would claim the zionist colony as a democracy.
in that entity, Frist class citezens are the European Asheknazi jews; then comes the oriental jews; followed by the Falash; and then the "Israeli" arabs
Oriental and Falasha jews and "Israeli" arabs are discriminated against in employment, education, public services, and every other form possible.

[Revolution Until Victory]

"before the 60s no "palestinian" people existed or about that fact that "palestine" has never existed.
occupiers of what? land which has never belonged to a nation known as "palestine" because a nation known as "palestine" has never existed?
so....your position is basially arguing for self-determination of a nation and people which has never existed?"

again, more pethetic lies from the zionist sucm.
and you call yourself a "leftist" :lol:

the residents of that region were known as Palestinians since the Roman times.
Palestinians didn't just pop up from under the ground in the 60's; they were demanding self-determination and Independece for PALESTINE since the Ottman times.
Palestinians didn't have a state before. But the majority of the UN members right now are states that didn't have a state before gaining self determination, like Algeria, Guatemala, Congo, Mexico, Negieria etc.
However, the Palestinian people were a recognized nation long before the establishment of the zionist colony.
Paragraph 4 of Article XXII of the League of Nations Covenant recognized the people of Palestine as a "provisionally independent nation." It stated:

Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as an independent nation can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory.

Can we say Congo, Algeria, Mexico, Guatemala, Kenya, Negiera etc. don't have a right of self-determination coz "they never existed"???

"wy does the land rightfully belong to Palestinians?"

- Prior to the UN partition plan in 1947, the UN created the Survey of Palestine committee to investigate the situation in Palestine and gather importan statistics.
P.566 of this offical survey show that arabs in Palestine owned over 94% of the entire area of Palestine, while the zionists owned 5.8%
those are officaly recognized statistcs

- The CCP Refugee Office (Concelation Commitee created by the UN) estimated that although only a little more than a quarter was considered cultivable, more than 80 percent of Israel's total area of 20,850 km.sq. represented land abandoned by the Arab refugees. Three-quarters of the former Arab land was sub-marginal land or semi-desert in the Negeb.

- Subcommittee 2 of the Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestine Question stated in its report to the United Nations General Assembly the following:
Closely connected with the distribution of population is the factor of land ownership in the proposed Jewish State. The bulk of the land in the Arab State, as well as in the proposed Jewish State, is owned and possessed by Arabs. This is clear from the following statistics furnished to the Sub-Committee by the United Kingdom representative, showing the respective percentages of Arab and Jewish ownership of land in the various sub-districts of Palestine.

[graffic]

Originally posted by Question [email protected] 15, 2007 01:03 am
Reasons Israel sucks.

1. Paramilitary Zionists are beating 12 year olds in the street, and breaking into houses. (I can't site an Internet source although it is metioned in 'The Fateful Triangle' by Chomsky)

2. The Israeli police is allowing this to happen.

3. They are invading their neighbours, to try and Return A Nation that existed thousand years ago to it's former status andbring 'God's' chosen people to their holyland.

I got hundreds of reasons why Israel in it's current form is evil
Anti-Zionist propaganda.

I'm not a 'pathetic troll' either. I came on here to have a decent debate about Israel, which is on the whole what its been. Ive respected your views, you need to learn to respect mine. Did someone post something about a Jewish conspiracy organisation posting on internet forums?

mmm, what does that bring to mind?

[graffic]

Originally posted by Revolution Until [email protected] 16, 2007 04:45 am


-it's a crime under the law if you lie about being a jew; however it's perfectly ok to lie about being a muslim, christian, or any other relegion.


That would be because your born a Jew. Whereas being a Muslim or Christian is a choice .

[Revolution Until Victory]

"the most powerful army in the entire world
*gets coat*"

sorry, that was a typo; I meant the most powerful army in the region, and 4th most powerful army in the world.

And Yes, the zionist colony is a nuclear power with up an estimated 200-400 nulcear weapons.

[graffic]

what would you do??? the hamas operates from certain areas where civilians live, because there is no other way; thats how partisan techniques work. the military attacks these villages and are therefore seen as killers by the people in these areas. of course hamas wants to show the israely soldiers in a bad light. what else could they do ???

Please stop digging into the empty bag of excuses for these terroists who need help not your support.

The reason the surrounding countrys want Israel wiped off the face of the planet is because of their belief in Mohammed and the Korahn, just the same as the Israelis and Americans want Israel to be restored because of the Prophecy in the Bible.

I believe the Jews have the right to a homeland, regardless of religion. Demonizing Israel is just pleasing the Islamic fanatics who so many people on the left support.

[graffic]

And Yes, the zionist colony is a nuclear power with up an estimated 200-400 nulcear weapons.
Estimated - just the same as the Americans estimated Iraqs Nuclear weapons

[Revolution Until Victory]

"The reason the surrounding countrys want Israel wiped off the face of the planet is because of their belief in Mohammed and the Korahn, just the same as the Israelis and Americans want Israel to be restored because of the Prophecy in the Bible. I believe the Jews have the right to a homeland, regardless of religion. Demonizing Israel is just pleasing the Islamic fanatics who so many people on the left support."

at times, you seem to be an innocent person who is a bit confused by his uncle's propaganda. But at times, you seem to be as pethatic and disgusting as the zionist scum.
the Palestinians are occupied people who are fighing to regain their land and freedom. They are fighing against colonialism. When someone robbes your house and land, he's no longer an innocent civlians; he become a theif and a colonizers.
European colonizers in the North America 200 yrs ago faced the same fate.
How could any self-respecting person live on a land or in a house robbed from its owner?
Palestinians consider every Israeli who lives willingly on their land and on their house and deny them the right to return to be their enemy, until he ceases to do so
Unarmed European colonizers were also being targted by the Native; where they called "terrorists" NO coz a land thief is a colonizer and NOT an innocent civilians.
The European colonizers, even if unarmed, faced the same thing also in New Zealand, Australia, Indonesia, Algeria, Congo etc.
This is a fight against colonialism. If the colonizers don't like the bombs and builts, then they should return what they have stolen.
no one can take the house of another and expect to live in peace.
No peace for theives
Just as they had done with the wars in Vietnam, Algeria, or the Portuguese colonies in Africa, Western media shouted "terrorism" to obscure the justice of people's fight for national liberation.
there would be no violence from the Palestinans if they regained their lands and properites, and the zionist colony and its racism ended.

the reason that every person in a right mind wants the zionist colony to be dismantiled is coz it's an illegitamte colony built on stolen lands.
this is what the UN said about it:

Subcommittee 2 of the Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestine Question stated in its report to the United Nations General Assembly the following:
Closely connected with the distribution of population is the factor of land ownership in the proposed Jewish State. The bulk of the land in the Arab State, as well as in the proposed Jewish State, is owned and possessed by Arabs. This is clear from the following statistics furnished to the Sub-Committee by the United Kingdom representative, showing the respective percentages of Arab and Jewish ownership of land in the various sub-districts of Palestine.

the Palestinians are not demanding anything that doesn't belong to them; they are demanding justice.
Justice is refugees and their decendents returning and reclaiming their stolen property, end to zionist colonizalims and racism, and the establishment of a secular democratic Palestine were jew AND arab would live in peace with eqaul rights.
Stop using this disgusing propaganda, stupid world "Islamofacists"!
the majority of the Palestinain orgnizations are secular and leftist.
In fact, not one single orgnizatio was Islamic until very recently.
All where secular, leftist, and communist, unitl Hamas was PUSHED into the struggle by "Israel" (!!) to try to menimize the strengh of the secular nationalist Fateh.
the largest faction of the PLO is Fateh (secular, nationalist) followed by PFLP (secular, leftist, marxist-leninest)

[KC]

graffic thanks for not responding to my earlier post, which ripped to shreds your weak zionist position. If you'd like to have an actual discussion with evidence then respond to my earlier post or shut up.


Anti-Zionist propaganda.

The IDF classifies children with rocks as terrorists and shoots them.


what the fuck

Israeli Nuclear Weapons Program (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%27s_nuclear_program)


Please stop digging into the empty bag of excuses for these terroists who need help not your support.

The reason the surrounding countrys want Israel wiped off the face of the planet is because of their belief in Mohammed and the Korahn, just the same as the Israelis and Americans want Israel to be restored because of the Prophecy in the Bible.

You would be right if it weren't for the rather obvious fact that many jews and arabs coexisted in the region in relative peace before the creation of Israel. Of course, that fact exposes your assertion for what it is - bullshit.


Estimated - just the same as the Americans estimated Iraqs Nuclear weapons

Uh, no, not the same at all.

[Goatse]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 05:38 pm

And Yes, the zionist colony is a nuclear power with up an estimated 200-400 nulcear weapons.
Estimated - just the same as the Americans estimated Iraqs Nuclear weapons
I beg your pardon?

[Question everything]

Originally posted by graffic+April 16, 2007 05:16 pm--> (graffic @ April 16, 2007 05:16 pm)
Question [email protected] 15, 2007 01:03 am
Reasons Israel sucks.

1. Paramilitary Zionists are beating 12 year olds in the street, and breaking into houses. (I can't site an Internet source although it is metioned in 'The Fateful Triangle' by Chomsky)

2. The Israeli police is allowing this to happen.

3. They are invading their neighbours, to try and Return A Nation that existed thousand years ago to it's former status andbring 'God's' chosen people to their holyland.

I got hundreds of reasons why Israel in it's current form is evil
Anti-Zionist propaganda.

I'm not a 'pathetic troll' either. I came on here to have a decent debate about Israel, which is on the whole what its been. Ive respected your views, you need to learn to respect mine. Did someone post something about a Jewish conspiracy organisation posting on internet forums?

mmm, what does that bring to mind? [/b]
1. I didn't call you a troll

2. It's not anti Zionist proganda the PLO has attacked innocent citizens but the Isreali army has done ten times the damage each time.

3.
Did someone post something about a Jewish conspiracy organisation posting on internet forums?

Not me. I'm not anti-semetic, but I am anti-zionist. and I can give you a hundred reasons why (If you want me to).


"The reason the surrounding countrys want Israel wiped off the face of the planet is because of their belief in Mohammed and the Korahn, just the same as the Israelis and Americans want Israel to be restored because of the Prophecy in the Bible. I believe the Jews have the right to a homeland, regardless of religion. Demonizing Israel is just pleasing the Islamic fanatics who so many people on the left support."

America don't care about the Jewish homeland, honestly I think it was Hitler's solution (of deporting the Jewish people to Palestine), re-packaged to look nice. I mean look at the figures, The Americans had tight resrictions on Jewish Immigration after world war 2, so Instead of getting flood with refugies they cut out a chunk of a british colony and said here you go, the kicked out the Inhabitants, but the Zionists weren't happy with the partation so the took over the rest of Palestine, and now when the Palestinians ask for the same right
I believe the Jews have the right to a homeland You call them "Islamic Fanatics"? As for Demonizing Israel, it's not hard, the communist party there found numerous accounts of Prisonners misteriously dissappear, with stories about torture and sercet executions, I heard at least 40% of the youth in Israel are in favour of reduced rights for communist and Arabs.

[graffic]

You can't compare the Israeli army to terroists, no matter how bad their International war crimes have been, yes they have done bad things. But they are not a terroist organisation, that is very anti-semitic comment to make.

[KC]

You can't compare the Israeli army to terroists, no matter how bad their International war crimes have been, yes they have done bad things. But they are not a terroist organisation, that is very anti-semitic comment to make.

This is the dumbest thing you've said yet. Criticizing the Israeli state isn't "anti-semitic" at all and saying that it is shows that you're nothing more than a zionist troll. You might as well stop posting. You've already shown that you don't want to have a productive debate here by not replying to the evidence I have supplied, and now you're equating anti-zionism with anti-semitism. You're a troll. Fuck off.

[Question everything]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 07:18 pm
You can't compare the Israeli army to terroists, no matter how bad their International war crimes have been, yes they have done bad things. But they are not a terroist organisation, that is very anti-semitic comment to make.
Define Terrorist.

[graffic]

The IDF classifies children with rocks as terrorists and shoots them.

Have you worked for the IDF's intelligence, have you been working with the soldiers who are classifying Palestinian kids as terroists? Or are you just reading this from a anti-Zionist propaganda site?


You would be right if it weren't for the rather obvious fact that many jews and arabs coexisted in the region in relative peace before the creation of Israel. Of course, that fact exposes your assertion for what it is

Wrong, many Arabs and very few Jews existed. Hence why many Jews have immigrated back to Israel from America, Europe, Asia etc.

[Question everything]

Please Define Terrorist. I would be very interested in hearing your defintion.

Also Define "Religious Fanactic".

[graffic]

Originally posted by Zampanò@April 16, 2007 07:20 pm
Criticizing the Israeli state isn't "anti-semitic" at all
No, your right it isnt. Calling the Israeli army a terroist organistation however is quite different

[graffic]

Originally posted by Question [email protected] 16, 2007 07:21 pm
Define Terrorist.
A group of people who specifically use "terror" as a weapon in war, usually excused by a religion.

[Question everything]

Originally posted by graffic+April 16, 2007 07:31 pm--> (graffic @ April 16, 2007 07:31 pm)
Zampanò@April 16, 2007 07:20 pm
Criticizing the Israeli state isn't "anti-semitic" at all
No, your right it isnt. Calling the Israeli army a terroist organistation however is quite different [/b]
No it isn't. I have the utmost respect for the Jewish people but

The Israeli army a terroist organistation. I would go so far as to call them the Nazis of our time. picking on a defenceless nationless people like that.

[Question everything]

Originally posted by graffic+April 16, 2007 07:33 pm--> (graffic @ April 16, 2007 07:33 pm)
Question [email protected] 16, 2007 07:21 pm
Define Terrorist.
A group of people who specifically use "terror" as a weapon in war, usually excused by a religion. [/b]
So isn't the Israeli army a terrorist organization when it bombs refuge camps while saying the "gentiles are a people like donkeys" and the their Primeminister should has the authority of a biblical king?

[KC]

Have you worked for the IDF's intelligence, have you been working with the soldiers who are classifying Palestinian kids as terroists? Or are you just reading this from a anti-Zionist propaganda site?

How about from the IDF's own website?


29 September 2000 - Palestinians riot on Jerusalem's Temple Mount, hurling rocks at Jewish worshippers at the Western Wall and Israeli policemen.

This was listed under "Major Palestinian Terrorist Attacks Since September 2000"

And that's just from under 5 minutes of searching.


Wrong, many Arabs and very few Jews existed. Hence why many Jews have immigrated back to Israel from America, Europe, Asia etc.

So Arabs and Jews coexisted.



No, your right it isnt. Calling the Israeli army a terroist organistation however is quite different

The IDF is part of the Israeli state. Calling the IDF terrorist isn't "anti-semitic" at all you zionist troll. It actually is terrorist, since it regularly practices terrorism in the form of bulldozing houses and using Palestinians as human shields, as well as its overall expansionist policy.

[Chicano Shamrock]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 11:18 am
You can't compare the Israeli army to terroists, no matter how bad their International war crimes have been, yes they have done bad things. But they are not a terroist organisation, that is very anti-semitic comment to make.
So you can't criticize George Bush because that would be racist to whites right? If what you say is true than my comment is fair also...

The Israeli Army is a terrorist organization. It has nothing with them being Jewish. They don't get a license to kill freely just because of their religion. Is calling Al Qaeda a terrorist organization Anti-Muslim? I don't think so.

The definition of a terrorist is a person or group of persons who use violence to get political change. So Israel using their army to go into Palestine and change the land is a terrorist act. Did you watch the videos I posted? Do you have any comments or do you want to pretend like you are ignorant to the vile things that Israel is doing. Kind of like Nazi supporters in Germany pretended to be ignorant to what was happening to the jews.

[Okocim]

Originally posted by Question [email protected] 16, 2007 08:33 pm
The Israeli army a terroist organistation. I would go so far as to call them the Nazis of our time. picking on a defenceless nationless people like that.
a defenceless people? :lol:

here we have a list of the Israelis killed by Palestinian terrorists - ie. real terrorists, not actions of defence which is what the IDF engage in:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obsta...rorism+sinc.htm (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism+sinc .htm)

as you see by the graphs at the beginning, with the construction of the security fence, the number killed has decreased a huge deal but is still extremely significant.

the final graph being of particular interest considering the Palestinians are, in your words, "defenceless":

Number of Kassam rockets fired at Israel
http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/DC96E5E4-8CFD-4C03-9555-CBF937B50ECF/0/terrorstats5.jpg

Many of those killed were young people and were not soldiers as you can see by a quick browse through.


how about some more pictures of the defenceless "palestinians"?

http://www.americandigest.org/mt-archives/...dy-parts-02.jpg (http://www.americandigest.org/mt-archives/hamas-gaza-body-parts-02.jpg)

we have here hamas members (both with non-existent guns - just keep stating it, and it might come true :) ) standing over a table with the remains of Israeli soldiers which they are refusing to give back.

here we have a picture of a terrible, terrible, nasty member of the "terrorist" IDF daring to treat a prisoner who was trying to blow them up, in such a obviously degrading manner:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d69/true...ToWouldBeSu.jpg (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d69/trueimages/IsraeliSoldierGivesWaterToWouldBeSu.jpg)

compare this to how they treat their prisoners:

[-I would link but I find it distasteful to link to a picture of the likes of what happened to Daniel Pearl-]




as for your "nation less" claim, yes they are, due to their own actions. The idea of a "palestinian people" only came into being in the 1960s when the arabs in the west bank, gaza and eastern Jerusalem who only considered themselves arabs up to this point realised they couldn't legitimately claim the right to self-determination because of the number of arab countries already so claimed they weren't only arabs, but a separate nation in order to try to sway world opinion in their favour. The rulers claimed a unique history then dragged the people into going along with it to try to achieve their goals no matter how unjustified.

[Okocim]

Originally posted by Chicano [email protected] 16, 2007 09:22 pm
The Israeli Army is a terrorist organization. It has nothing with them being Jewish. They don't get a license to kill freely just because of their religion. Is calling Al Qaeda a terrorist organization Anti-Muslim? I don't think so.
there is, however, quite a difference between al-qaeda and the IDF; the IDF acts in defence of civilians and the security of Israel against constant threat. It is not a religious organisation. Al-qaeda is a primarily religious organisation engaged in a process of "holy war" against unbelievers.

[Question everything]

here we have a list of the Israelis killed by Palestinian terrorists - ie. real terrorists, not actions of defence which is what the IDF engage in:

an Israel soldier reported that 30 12-13 year old children were lined up facing a wall with there hand up for five hours in Hebron and they were kicked if they moved. he justified the action by saying they aare not "all innocent lambs as they look now, with their hands up and their eyes asking for pity... they burn and they throw stones and participate in demonstrations, and they are not less harmful then their parents. Afterwards the children were sent prison at an army camp.

[Okocim]

Originally posted by Question [email protected] 16, 2007 10:49 pm
an Israel soldier reported that 30 12-13 year old children were lined up facing a wall with there hand up for five hours in Hebron and they were kicked if they moved. he justified the action by saying they aare not "all innocent lambs as they look now, with their hands up and their eyes asking for pity... they burn and they throw stones and participate in demonstrations, and they are not less harmful then their parents. Afterwards the children were sent prison at an army camp.
you know, what bob told you down the pub isn't exactly reliable: link please?

[BreadBros]

here we have a list of the Israelis killed by Palestinian terrorists - ie. real terrorists, not actions of defence which is what the IDF engage in:

Many of the actions that the IDF engages in are not classified as self-defense by a wide variety of observers. Israel is the only country in the world that uses house demolitions as an official military tactic, one of the few countries in the world to legalize torture as a legitimate means of interrogation and one of the few countries where the taking of hostages is also legally accepted as a legitimate means of coercion. If you want examples of the type of "actions of defense" the IDF engages in all you have to do is read the B'Tselem reports on IDF demolitions.


as you see by the graphs at the beginning, with the construction of the security fence, the number killed has decreased a huge deal but is still extremely significant.

Correlation does not indicate causation. Rates of violence were also down in the mid 90s when no wall existed. The second Intifada began in 2000, its been almost seven years, of course rates of violence would go down.


the final graph being of particular interest considering the Palestinians are, in your words, "defenceless":

Number of Kassam rockets fired at Israel
http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/DC96E5E4-8CFD-4C03-9555-CBF937B50ECF/0/terrorstats5.jpg

A home-made rocket with no guidance system doesn't really compare to one of the largest and most technologically advanced militaries on earth. It seems many (possibly most) in Israeli government and society would also disagree with you on the comparative strengths of the two sides, see my General Note below these responses.



we have here hamas members (both with non-existent guns - just keep stating it, and it might come true :) ) standing over a table with the remains of Israeli soldiers which they are refusing to give back.

here we have a picture of a terrible, terrible, nasty member of the "terrorist" IDF daring to treat a prisoner who was trying to blow them up, in such a obviously degrading manner:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d69/true...ToWouldBeSu.jpg

compare this to how they treat their prisoners:

With the exception of certain neighborhoods/parts of city, most of the Palestinian territories are not controlled by either Hamas or Fatah and where they do exist they certainly do not do so in a defensive civil patrol manner. In nearly every part of the Palestinian territories the average Palestinian is completely defenseless when it comes to IDF intervention. Your arguments so far are pathetically weak. Two guys with guns does not equate to a national defense force. Nor does the fact that an IDF soldier gave water to a Palestinian militia member obscure the systematically imperialist and terrorist actions of the IDF. I'm sure if you went back in time you would also find quite a lot of British soldiers stationed in India who were upstanding citizens and great people. If you think this legitimized British colonial rule or proves that the UKs actions werent imperialistic then you really need to re-take a class in both 'Logic' and 'Middle Eastern History'.


as for your "nation less" claim, yes they are, due to their own actions. The idea of a "palestinian people" only came into being in the 1960s when the arabs in the west bank, gaza and eastern Jerusalem who only considered themselves arabs up to this point realised they couldn't legitimately claim the right to self-determination because of the number of arab countries already so claimed they weren't only arabs, but a separate nation in order to try to sway world opinion in their favour. The rulers claimed a unique history then dragged the people into going along with it to try to achieve their goals no matter how unjustified.

Thats actually completely wrong. I&#39;ve addressed this claim which you have made multiple times in previous pages of this thread and you have failed to respond. Whats the matter Okocim? Scared? If you dont answer me after this post, well, I think that will send a message to everyone else in this thread about the validity of your argument <_< Lets look at this point-by-point.


as for your "nation less" claim, yes they are, due to their own actions.

Incorrect. It was the British who deliniated the lines of the Mandate of Palestine in 1923. While the other French and British mandates resulted in the creation of independent Arab states post-WWII, the creation of a Palestinian one was pre-empted by the establishment of the area as a destination for a Jewish National Home by the British. I don&#39;t see how "their own actions" had anything to do with this. In fact there were several anti-British Arab riots so one can speculate that if it had been up to them their would in fact be a state.


The idea of a "palestinian people" only came into being in the 1960s when the arabs in the west bank, gaza and eastern Jerusalem who only considered themselves arabs up to this point realised they couldn&#39;t legitimately claim the right to self-determination because of the number of arab countries already so claimed they weren&#39;t only arabs, but a separate nation in order to try to sway world opinion in their favour.

The right to self-determination has never been based on ethnic boundaries. Your own example flies in your face. The boundaries of the other Arab states were drawn up by the French and British. The idea that they themselves would create multiple independent Arab states but then deny that right themselves to an additional one makes zero logical sense. If you are so certain about this claim (you&#39;ve made it like 3 times now), I challenge you to:
1. Provide an example of a document written by the UN, Britain, the US or France that argues against a Palestinian state based on the idea that there are already other Arab states.
2. Provide an example of ANY document written by the Leauge of Nations, UN, Britain, US, or France that argues that the right to self-determination is based ethnic uniqueness.

I addressed this in my previous post but I suppose you either didn&#39;t read it or have conveniantly overlooked it. Have you ever read the Christian bible? It was published approximately 1700 years ago and guess what? It mentions the idea of a Palestinian people&#33; They&#39;re called Philistines. For some more modern examples:

-In the 14th century, Filastin (Arabic phonetic translation of Palestine) was a district within the Malmuk Empire with Jersulem as its capital and including Ramallah, Ascalon, Hebron and Nablus.
-The Ottoman empire referred to the area as "Arz-i Filistin" or &#39;Land of Palestine&#39;.
-The Sykes-Picot agreement refers to the territory as Palestine.
-Even the friggin Balfour Declaration refers to the area as Palestine and Israel.
-More examples provided in my previous posts.


The rulers claimed a unique history then dragged the people into going along with it to try to achieve their goals no matter how unjustified.

The only "justification" needed for making a claim towards nationhood is sovereignty over territory and a desire for nationhood. Thats all. Regardless, as I have also laid out and as has been corroborated by multiple Israeli historians, the history of the Palestinian people even in the past 70 years has been so different from that of Syrians, Jordanians and whoever that it is clear as day why they would want a unique state. You could also take into account the multiple sub-ethnic splits among Arabs (for example between Maronites, Assyrians, those from the Levant, etc). I don&#39;t even see why you keep harping on this point. Even if one where to argue that the Palestinians arent a seperate nation and "are just Arabs" what does that change? Then the territories would still be contested but would become part of Jordan or Lebanon instead of being independent. Unless you&#39;re advocating forced transfer. In which case I would ask: the Kurds really want an indepdent nation but they cant have one because of anti-Kurd bias in Turkey/Iraq and oil politics, do you support the establishment of a new Kurd homeland in the Eastern United States and the forced transfer of all Americans to refugee camps in Canada? Why dont you just all move to Canada? You&#39;re all Anglos, right? Jeezeee... :rolleyes:

General Note: For those who want to see an interesting and serious debate over Israel, you know, not with someone like Okocim who has the mental capacity of a 5 year old, then I suggest you watch this debate between former Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami and Professor Norman Finkelstein on Democracy Now, its kinda long (an hour) but really good:

Part 1 - http://youtube.com/watch?v=h-FLIBkTg8g
Part 2 - http://youtube.com/watch?v=nbDMam_jGVk
Part 3 - http://youtube.com/watch?v=o_j2XH4tOK4
Part 4 - http://youtube.com/watch?v=b5cYaCWfWNY
Part 5 - http://youtube.com/watch?v=nQUXuixbYdU
Part 6 - http://youtube.com/watch?v=NEa8JBlCnx8

They disagree on a lot of things obviously. However much of what Ben-Ami says is still pretty good, he rips apart a lot of the stupid shit Okocim is arguing like the difference in strength between Israel and its neighbors (Ben-Ami considers Israel to be a regional superpower against which the Arabs never had a chance), the characterization of the recent peace talks at Camp David (at which he was one of the main negotiator) etc. I think they&#39;d both agree on one thing though: Okocim is a moron. Finkelstein is the man, so watch it.

So yeah, Okocim, Im straight up challenging you to respond to this and my previous posts.

[Question everything]

Originally posted by Okocim+April 16, 2007 09:57 pm--> (Okocim &#064; April 16, 2007 09:57 pm)
Question [email protected] 16, 2007 10:49 pm
an Israel soldier reported that 30 12-13 year old children were lined up facing a wall with there hand up for five hours in Hebron and they were kicked if they moved. he justified the action by saying they aare not "all innocent lambs as they look now, with their hands up and their eyes asking for pity... they burn and they throw stones and participate in demonstrations, and they are not less harmful then their parents. Afterwards the children were sent prison at an army camp.
you know, what bob told you down the pub isn&#39;t exactly reliable: link please? [/b]
sorry I wasn&#39;t done typing

here are the main sources

-Michal Meron Yediot Ahronot March 29 1982
-Amnon Kapeliouk Al Hamishmar March 26 1982


Al-qaeda is a primarily religious organisation engaged in a process of "holy war" against unbelievers.

You mean to say that Israel isn&#39;t holding a holy war <_< I can give you at least 10 quotes saying that Israel is no better than Al-qaeda

[Revolution Until Victory]

“the PLO has attacked innocent citizens”

when you live on stolen and robbed lands, homes, and farms, you are being a colonizer, a thief, a robber, NOT an innocent civilians.
The unarmed european colonizers in North America, New Zealand, Angola, Congo, Indonesia, Algeria, Australia, and South Africa etc were all legitamite target for the Native resistence
Why?
After all, those people are not solidiers, why were they targeted by the native resistance?
Simple. Colonizers, whether armed or not, are NOT innocent civilians, they are thieves and robber denying the natives from returning to their house.
When a person willingly decides to be a colonizer and steal land; he shouldn’t expect to live in peace.
Palestinians consider every Zionist that lives willingly on their home and on their land to be their enemy.
The only innocent civilians in the Zionist colony are minors and children who are not responsible for their action and are not targeted by the resistance; and any Zionists that live on legally purchased homes and lands; however, only 5.8% of Palestines entire area was legally purchased by the Zionists. The Palestinians, however, try to not harm the innocent with their extremely inaccurate weapons.

[Revolution Until Victory]

“there is, however, quite a difference between al-qaeda and the IDF; the IDF acts in defence of civilians and the security of Israel against constant threat.”

Al Qaeda can easly calim it’s defending arab and muslim lands from Western aggression.
This is just palin stupid, it’s not even funny. The “IDF” is a force of terrorism and aggression
Bombing UN refugee camps full of only women and children is “defence” for you
Bombing shelters full of only women and children is “defence” for your ilk
Murdering children throwing rocks 50m away from the most powerful tank in the world is “defence” for the sluts like you (nearly a 1000 children were murderd by your terrorism since the begning of the second intifada and scores of others crippled and paralyzed)
Illegally occupying others and murdering peaceful protestors is “defence”
Oh let me guess, the Gaza beach massacre was also defence?
A family having a picnic on the beach is such a threat&#33;
And the recent Beit Hanoun massacre was also defence?
I know, parents getting their little kids ready for school in the morning is a major threat to the Zionist colony&#33;
The “IDF” almost NEVER fights in defence, the vast majority of times in terrorism and aggression.
Not to mention of course, that you don’t have a right to use violence or kill in order to defend something that you have illegally acquired in the first place&#33;
You don’t have a right to protect what you’ve stolen.
Here is just a minor list of acts of “defence”:

SHARAFAT MASSACRE:
7 Febraury 1951(Palestine): Israeli soldiers corssed the armistice line to this village (5Km from Jerusalem) and blew up the houses of the Mukhtar and his neighbors. 10 were killed (2 elderly men,raeli soldiers corssed the armistice line to this village (5Km from Jerusalem) and blew up the houses of the Mukhtar and his neighbors. 10 were killed (2 elderly men, 3 woemen and 5 children) and 8 were wounded.

The Massacre at Qibya:
14-15/10/1953 (Palestine): On the night of October 14-15, 1953 , this village was the object of a brutal "Israeli" attack which was carried out by units from the regular army as part of a pre-meditated plan and in which a variety of weapon types were used. On the
evening of October 14, an Israeli military force estimated at about 600 soldiers
moved toward the village. Upon arrival, it surrounded it and cordoned it off from all of
the other Arab villages. The attack began with concentrated, indiscriminate artillery
fire on the homes in the village. This continued until the main force reached the
outskirts of the village. Meanwhile, other forces headed for nearby Arab towns such
as Shuqba, Badrus and Na&#39;lin in order to distract them and prevent any aid from
reaching the people in Qibya. They also planted mines on various roads so as to
isolate the village completely. As units of the Israeli infantry were attacking the village
residents, units of military engineers were placing explosives around some of the
houses in the village and blowing them up with everyone in them under the protection
of the infantrymen, who fired on everyone who tried to flee. These acts of brutality
continued until 4:00 a.m., October 15, 1953, at which time the enemy forces
withdrew to the bases from which they had begun. There was a particular sight the
memory of which remained in the minds of all who saw it: an Arab woman sitting on a
pile of debris and casting a forlorn look into the sky. From beneath the rubble one
could see small legs and hands which were the remains of her six children, while the
bullet-maimed body of her husband lay in the road before her.
This vicious terrorist attack resulted in the destruction of 56 houses, the village
mosque, the village school and the water tank which supplied it with water. Moreover,
67 citizens lost their lives, both men and women, with many others wounded.18
Terrorist Ariel Sharon, the commander of the "101" unit which undertook the terrorist
aggression, stated that his leaders&#39; orders had been clear with regard to how the
residents of the village were to be dealt with. He says, "The orders were utterly clear:
Qibya was to be an example to everyone."
KAFR QASEM MASSACRE:
On October 29, 1956 (Palestine): the day on which Israel launched its assault on Egypt , units of Israel Frontier guards started at 4:00 PM what they called a tour of the Triangle Villages. They told the Mukhtars (Aldermen) of those villages that the curfew from that day onwards was to start from 5:00 PM instead of the usual 6:00 PM, and that the inhabitants are requested to stay home. The Mukhtar (Alderman) protested that there were about 400 villagers working outside the village and there was not enough time to inform them of the new times. An officer assured him that they will be taken care of.
Meanwhile, the officers positioned themselves at the village entrance. At about 4.55 PM, unaware of the ambush awaiting them, the innocent farmers started flocking in after a hard day of work. The Israeli soldiers started stepping out of their military trucks and ordered the villagers to line up. Then the officer in charge screamed "REAP THEM," and the soldiers
riddled the bodies of the Palestinian villagers with bullets in cold blood. With the massacre practically over, the soldiers moved around finishing off whoever still had a pulse in him.
The government of Israel took great pains to hide the truth, but after the investigation was concluded, Ben Gurion, the Israeli Prime Minister, announced that some people in the Triangle had been injured by thefrontier guards. The press also was part of the conspiracy to cover up the incident. The Hebrew press wrote about a "mistake?" and a "misfortune" , when it mentioned the victims, and it was difficult to tell whom it meant.
More absurd than the trial of accomplices was their light sentences. The court found Major Meilinki and Lt. Daham guilty of killing 43 people and sentenced the former to 17 years and the latter to 15 years. What was remarkable about the Israeli official attitude was that various authorities competed to lighten the killer&#39;s sentences. Finally, the committee for the release of prisoners ordered the remission of a third of the prison sentence of all those who were convicted. In September 1960, Daham was appointed in the municipality of the city of Ramle as officer for the Arab Affairs.
Khan Yunis Massacre:
3/11/1956 (Palestine): Another massacre is committed on November 3, 1956 when the Israelis occupy the town of Khan Yunis and the adjacent refugee camp. The Israelis claim that there was
resistance, but the refugees state that all resistance had ceased when the Israelis arrived and that all of the victims were unarmed civilians.
Many homes in Khan Yunis are raided at random. Corpses lie everywhere and because of the curfew no one could go out to bury them. (An UNRWA investigation later found that the Israelis at Khan Yunis and therefugee camp had murdered 275 civilians that day ).
After the Israelis withdrew from Gaza under American pressure, a mass grave
was unearthed at Khan Yunis in March 1957. The grave contained the bodies
of forty Arabs who had been shot in the back of the head after their hands
had been tied.
The Massacre in Gaza City:
5/4/1956 (Palestine): On the evening of Thursday, April 5, 1956, Zionist occupation forces fired 20-mm mortar artillery on the city of Gaza. The shelling was concentrated against the city center, which was teaming with civilians going about their day-to-day affairs. Most of the shelling was directed against Mukhtar Street, Palestine Square and nearby streets, as well as the Shuja&#39;iyya district. As a result of this terrorist massacre carried out by gangs belonging to the Zionist Army against the Palestinian people, 56 people were killed and 103 were injured, the victims including men, women and children. Some of the wounded died subsequently, bringing the death toll to 60,
including 27 women, 29 men and 4 children.

AL-SAMMOU&#39; MASSACRE:
13 November 1966(Palestine): Israeli forces raided this village, destroyed 125 houses, the village clinic and school as well as 15 houses in a neighbouring village. 18 people were killed and 54 wounded.
Aitharoun Massacre:
1975 (Lebanon) :The 1sraelis perpetrated this massacre starting with a booby-trapped bomb. Then Israeli&#39;s detained three brothers, and killed them. They threw Their bodies on the road. 9 civlians were killed, 23 were wounded.
Kawnin Massacre:
15/10/1975(Lebanon): An Israeli tank deliberately ran over a car carrying 16
people, and none of them escaped death.
Hanin Massacre :
16/10/1976(Lebanon): After a two- month siege and hours of shelling, the occupation forces stormed the village and turned it into a bloodbath. 20 perosn were mrtyred.
Bint Jbeil Massacre :
21/10/1976(Lebanon):The crowded market was the target of a sudden barrage of Israeli bombs, slaughtering a lot of people. 23 were killed, 30 were wonded.
Abbasieh Massacre :
17/3/1978 (Lebanon): During the invasion of 1978, the Israeli warplanes destroyed the
mosque of the town on the heads of the women, children and the elderly who used the holy place as a shelter from the heavy Israeli shelling.80 perosn were martyred.
Adloun Massacre :
17/3/1978 (Lebanon): At Adloun on march 17, two cars carrying 8 passengers came under Israeli fire while they were on their way to Beirut. One passenger only escaped death.

Saida Massacre :
4/4/1981 (Lebanon) :One of Saida’s residential areas was targeted by the Israeli artillery which resulted in killing of many civilians and damaging to many buildings.20 perosn were kiled, 30 were wounded.
Fakhani Massacre :
17/7/1981 (Lebanon):A horrible massacre took place when Israeli warplanes raided a crowded residential area using the most developed weapons killing and wounding many citizens. 150 perosn were killed, 600 were wounded.
Beirut Massacre :
17/7/1981 (Lebanon)Israeli warplanes staged several raids on many parts of Beirut, Ouzai, Ramlet Al baida, fakhani, chatila and the area of the Arab University, killing many citizens. 150 person were killed, 600 were wounded
.
The Massacre at the Sabra and Shatila Camps:
A number of events led to the decision of an extremist terrorist group of the Lebanese kata&#39;ib forces and forces belonging to the Zionist Army to carry out massacres against the Palestinians. From the beginning of the Zionist invasion of Lebanon, the Zionists and their agents were working toward being able to extirpate the Palestinian presence in Lebanon. This may be seen from a number of massacres of which the world heard only little, carried out by Israeli forces and militias under their command in the Palestinian camps in south Lebanon (al-Rushaidiya, &#39;Ayn al-Hilu, al-Miya Miya, and others). This massacre was thus the outcome of a long mathematical calculation. It was carried out by groups of
Lebanese forces under the leadership of Ilyas Haqiba, head of the kata&#39;ib intelligence apparatus and with the approval of the Zionist Minister of Defense, Ariel Sharon and the Commander of the Northern District, General Amir Dawri. High-level Israeli officers had been planning for some time to enable the Lebanese forces to go into the Palestinian camps once West Beirut had been surrounded.
Two days before the massacre began - on the evening of September 14 - planning and coordination meetings were held between terrorist Sharon and his companion, Eitan. Plans were laid to have the kata&#39;ib forces storm the camps, and at dawn, September 15, Israel stormed West Beirut and cordoned off the camps. A high-level meeting was held on Thursday morning, September 16, 1982 in which Israel was represented by General Amir Dawri, Supreme Commander of the Northern Forces.
The job of carrying out the operation was assigned to Eli Haqiba, a major security official in the Lebanese forces. The meeting was also attended by Fadi Afram, Commander of the Lebanese Forces.
The process of storming the camps began before sunset on Thursday, September 16,35 and continued for approximately 36 hours.
The Israeli Army surrounded the camps, providing the murderers with all the support, aid and facilities necessary for them to carry out their appalling crime. They supplied them with bulldozers and with the necessary pictures and maps. In addition, they set off incandescent bombs in the air in order to turn night into day so that none of the Palestinians would be able to escape death&#39;s grip. And those who did flee - women, children and the elderly - were brought back inside the camps by Israeli soldiers to face their destiny. At noon on Friday, the second day of the terrorist massacre, and with the approval of the Israeli Army, the kata&#39;ib forces began receiving more ammunition, while the forces which had been in the camps were replaced by other, "fresh" forces. On Saturday morning, September 18, 1982, the massacre had reached its peak, and thousands of Sabra and Shatila camp residents had been annihilated.
Information about the massacre began to leak out after a number of children and women fled to the Gaza Hospital in the Shatila camp, where they told doctors what was happening. News of the massacre also began to reach some foreign journalists on Friday morning, September 17.38
One of the journalists who went into the camps after the massacre reports what he saw, saying, "The corpses of the Palestinians had been thrown among the rubble that remained of the Shatila camp. It was impossible to know exactly how many victims there were, but there had to be more than 1,000 dead. Some of the men who had been executed had been lined up in front of a wall, and bulldozers had been
used in an attempt to bury the bodies and cover up the aftermath of the massacre.
But the hands and feet of the victims protruded from the debris."
Hasan Salama (57 years old), whose 80-year-old brother was killed in the massacre, says, "They came from the mountains in thirty huge trucks. At first they started killing people with knives so that they wouldn&#39;t make any noise. Then on Friday there were snipers in the Shatila camp killing anybody who crossed the street. On Friday afternoon, armed men began going into the houses and firing on men, women and children. Then they started blowing up the houses and turning them into piles of
rubble."
Author Amnoun Kabliyouk [p. 10] writes in his book about the tragedy of a young Palestinian girl who, like the rest of the children in the camp, faced this horrific massacre. Thirteen years old, she was the only survivor out of her entire family (her father, her mother, her grandfather and all her brothers and sisters were killed). She related to a Lebanese officer, saying, "We stayed in the shelter until really late on Thursday night, but then I decided to leave with my girl friend because we couldn&#39;t breathe anymore. Then all of a sudden we saw people raising white flags and handkerchiefs and coming toward the kata&#39;ib saying, &#39;We&#39;re for peace and harmony.&#39;
And they killed them right then and there. The women were screaming, moaning and begging [for mercy]. As for me, I ran back to our house and got into the bathtub. I saw them leading our neighbors away and shooting them. I tried to stand up at the window to look outside, but one of the kata&#39;ib fighters saw me and shot at me. So I went back to the bathtub and stayed there for five hours. When I came out, they grabbed me and threw me down with everybody else. One of them asked me if I was Palestinian, and I said yes. My nine-month-old nephew was beside me, and he was crying and screaming so much that one of the men got angry, so he shot him. I burst into tears and told him that this baby had been all the family I had left. That made him all the more angry, and he took the baby and tore him in two."
The massacre continued until noon on Saturday, September 18, leaving between 3,000 and 3,500 Palestinian and Lebanese civilians dead, most of them women, children and elderly people.42

[Question everything]

Originally posted by Revolution Until [email protected] 16, 2007 10:43 pm
“the PLO has attacked innocent citizens”

when you live on stolen and robbed lands, homes, and farms, you are being a colonizer, a thief, a robber, NOT an innocent civilians.
The unarmed european colonizers in North America, New Zealand, Angola, Congo, Indonesia, Algeria, Australia, and South Africa etc were all legitamite target for the Native resistence
Why?
After all, those people are not solidiers, why were they targeted by the native resistance?
Simple. Colonizers, whether armed or not, are NOT innocent civilians, they are thieves and robber denying the natives from returning to their house.
When a person willingly decides to be a colonizer and steal land; he shouldn’t expect to live in peace.
Palestinians consider every Zionist that lives willingly on their home and on their land to be their enemy.
The only innocent civilians in the Zionist colony are minors and children who are not responsible for their action and are not targeted by the resistance; and any Zionists that live on legally purchased homes and lands; however, only 5.8% of Palestines entire area was legally purchased by the Zionists. The Palestinians, however, try to not harm the innocent with their extremely inaccurate weapons.
I understand that, I was simply stating that the PLO did in fact inflict civilian casualities, I didn&#39;t say that they were not justified... I agree with you completely

[Revolution Until Victory]

Part 2 of "IDF" acts of "defence":

Jibsheet Massacre :
27/3/1984(Lebanon): The occupation forcers’ tanks and helicopters fired at a crowded people killing many civilians. 7 perosns were martyred, 10 were wounded.
Sohmor Massacre :
19/9/1984 (Lebanon): The occupation forces stormed the town with tanks, and military
vehicles and ordered the inhabitants to congregate at the town&#39;s mosque where they fired at them. 13 martyrs, 12 wounded.
Seer Al Garbiah Massacre :
23/3/1985 (Lebanon): The massacre took place at Al- Husseinieh building where people took shelter from the shelling of the Israeli soldiers who stormed the town with a huge number of military vehicles.7 persons were martyred.
Maaraka Massacres:
5/3/1985(Lebanon): The occupation forces planted an explosive device in the Husseinieh building of the town .It was detonated during the distribution of aid to the citizens who lost their lives. 15 perosns were killed.

Zrariah Massacre :
11/3/1985(Lebanon): Following heavy shelling the occupation forces stormed the town with about 100 vehicles and perpetrated a butchery, killing children, women and the elderly. 22 civlians were slaughtred.

Homeen Al-Tahta Massacre :
21/3/1985(Lebanon): After attacking the village with 140 army vehicles, the occupation forces ordered the inhabitants to gather at the school of the village. They then destroyed it over their heads. 20 incoent person were martyred.
Jibaa Massacre :
30/3/1985(Lebanon): A huge enemy force attacked the town and put it under siege, .When some people tried to escape the siege, the enemy soldiers fired at them, killing and wounding a lot of them. 5 perosn were killed, 5 were wounded.
Yohmor Massacre :
13/4/1985 (Lebanon): At one O’clock in the morning, an Israeli armored force entered the town using civilian cars and opened fire at the houses which resulted in the killing of 10 people, among them a family of six people.
Tiri massacre :
17/8/1986 (Lebanon): Merciless crimes against civilians increased in the town with the occupation forces cutting the hands and ears from the head. 4 perosns were killed, 79 were crippled and wounded.
Al-Naher Al-Bared Massacre (Palestinian camp):
11/12/1986(Lebanon): The Israeli warplanes raided this Palestinian refugee camp killing many of the refugees. 20 person were killed , 22 were wounded.
Ain Al-Hillwee Massacre(Palestinian Camp) :
5/9/1987(Lebanon): The enemy jet fighters launched two raids killing 31 and wounding 41 others. The refugees were hit by a thin raid while they were evacuating
casualties, 34 more being killed.
OYON QARA MASSACRE:
20 May 1990, an Israeli soldier lined up Palestinian labors and murdered seven of them with a sub-machine gun. 13 Palesinians were killed by Israeli forces in subsequent demonstrations at the massacre.
Siddiqine Massacre:
25/7/1990(Lebanon): The Israeli warplanes bombed a house, among the 3 killed a four years old child.
AL-AQSA MOSQUE MASSACRE:
October 8, 1990:
As an extension of the Zionist policy based upon exercising control over the city of Jerusalem and emptying it of its [Arab] residents by various and sundry means, such as Zionist terrorism and shedding the blood of the Palestinian people - a policy which Zionists have acted upon on numerous occasions - Zionist authorities undertook on Monday, October 8, 1990 to carry out this heinous massacre against Palestinian worshippers.
Several days before the events of the massacre began, the "Temple Trustees" group distributed a statement to the media on the occasion of a religious festival of theirs which they call "the Throne Festival". In the statement the organization announced that it intended to stage a march to the Temple Mount (or so they call it). The statement called upon Jews to participate in this march since, according to the statement, it would involve the decisive act of placing the foundation stone for what is
called "the Third Temple." In addition, the founder of the organization, Ghershoun Salmoun, announced that "the Arab-Islamic occupation of the temple area must come to an end, and the Jews must renew their profound ties to the sacred area." The march, in which 200,000 Jews took part, headed toward al-Aqsa Mosque in order for "the foundation stone" of the so-called "Third Temple" to be put in place. At the same time, that is, at 10:00 a.m. and a half-hour before the beginning of the
massacre, Israeli occupation forces began placing military barriers along various roads leading to Jerusalem in order to prevent Palestinians from getting to the city.
They also closed the doors of the mosque itself and forbid Jerusalem residents to go in. However, thousands had already gathered inside the mosque before this time in response to calls from the imam of the mosque and the Islamic movement to protect the mosque and to prevent the "Temple Trustees" from storming it and perhaps even imposing Jewish control over it.44 When the Muslim worshippers began resisting the Zionist group to prevent them from placing the "foundation stone" for their so-called temple, Zionist occupation forces began carrying out the massacre, using all the weapons at their disposal: poison gas bombs, automatic weapons, military helicopters, etc. The soldiers,
[Israeli] intelligence men and Jewish settlers resorted to firing live ammunition in the form of a continuous spray of machine-gun fire which came from all directions and in a well planned and coordinated fashion. The result was that thousands of Palestinian worshippers of various ages and nationalities found themselves in a mass death trap. Twenty-three Palestinians were killed, and 850 others were wounded to varying degrees. The Israeli soldiers began firing at 10:30 a.m. and stopped 35 minutes later. They opened fire on the Palestinian worshippers randomly and in cold blood.
Then they pursued them with clubs and rifles [outside the mosque].46 Nurse Fatima Abu Khadir, who was wounded by a bullet which fractured her wrist, states, "We went into the mosque precincts in an ambulance. I saw a large number of injured who had fallen on the ground. Then I saw lots of soldiers, hundreds of soldiers. They were about 30 meters from the ambulance and kneeling on one knee the way snipers do, and their weapons were aimed inside the ambulance. After that I couldn&#39;t see anything."
News agencies described the blessed precincts of al-Aqsa Mosque saying that blood had covered "the entire two hundred meters between the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa Mosque. Blood was flowing everywhere, all over the wide steps, and had stained the white tile the length of the broad courtyard, as well as the doors of both mosques. The walls of the two mosques had long, crimson lines etched onto them by bleeding hands, and blood had stained the white uniforms of the woman
first-aid workers. Everyone - the wounded and the more fortunate, first-aid workers, journalists, and Israeli soldiers - all of them looked as though they were swimming in blood.
Physician Muhammad Abu &#39;Ayila relates what happened to him and to a wounded man to whom he had been trying to administer first aid, and how the Zionists&#39; glee at the sight of Palestinian blood spilled in the precincts of the holy mosque had blinded their eyes so much that they couldn&#39;t distinguish between a young child and an old man, between a man and a woman, between a wounded man and one seeking to treat him. He says, "I got out of the ambulance carrying a first-aid kit. I was wearing a
white uniform. The soldiers saw me and knew I was a doctor. But when I got to the wounded person nearest me and bent down to treat him, I got three bullets in my back in the region of the kidney. At that very moment, the wounded man near me died. But he could have been saved if I hadn&#39;t been hit."49 Most of the wounds, in fact, were in the head and in the heart.50
Then, in a farce designed to justify the crime which had been committed by Zionists&#39; hands now stained with Palestinian blood, terrorist Yitzhaq Shamir, Prime Minister of the Zionist entity at that time, hastened to form a fact-finding committee which he called the "Zamir Committee" after its head, Tu&#39;fi Zamir, former head of the Israeli Mossad. As for the outcome of the committee&#39;s investigation, it was announced by Moshe Almert, head of the Media Office of the occupation government, who said,
"The report confirms clearly that the responsibility and fault for escalating [the conflict] lies on the side of the thousands of Muslim extremists, who were attacking the holy place of the Jews."

[Revolution Until Victory]

Part 3 of the numerous acts of "defence" by the "IDF":

THE JABALIA MASSACRE:
28 March 1994, A Jewish undercover police opened fire on Palestinian activists brutally killing 6 and injuring 49. Some of the wounded activists were taken out of their cars and shot in their heads to death.
Aramta Massacre:
15/4/1994(Lebanon): After blockading the town, armed men entered and ordered the people to gather at the town&#39;s square, where they were assaulted. Then, they took the men and women to the detention camp. Later on they stormed, the district of the town, and killed whomever they saw. 2 perosns were l&#092;killed, 6 were wounded.
ERETZ CHECKPOINT MASSACRE:
17 July 1994, Palestinian sources reported that the occupation forces had committed Sunday morning a disgusting massacre against Palestinian workers at Eretz checkpoint. Eyewitnesses and Israeli sources reported that 11 Palestinians have been shot dead and 200 injured. Israeli sources also reported that 21 Israeli soldiers including 1 settler were injured. Two soldiers were shot by bullets, one died. As reported by Palestinian and Israeli sources, the scene was described as a war zone which lasted for 6 hours. Four Israeli tanks and helicopters were brought by the occupation forces, while a number of settlers were taking part in firing at Palestinians. Protests had spread all over the Occupied Territories. In Gaza, Palestinians raised black flags and called for revenge. In Ramallah, shops closed while several clashes were reported. Several clashes were reported at Hebron University yesterday, and today two Palestinians were shot in Hebron.
Deir Al-Zahrani Massacre:
5/8/1994(Lebanon):
The Israeli warplanes fired a "vacuum" missile at a two- story building,in Deir Al-Zahranee which was destroyed over the heads of the inhabitants. 8 people were killed , 17 wee injured.
Nabatiyeh (school bus) Massacre:
21/03/1994(Lebanon):
The Israeli warplanes targeted school bus ful of puiples 4 childs were killed,10(child) Injured.


The Sohmor Second Massacre :
2/04/1996 (Lebanon):
The Israeli artillery targeted a civilian car carrying eight passengers, killing all of them .
Mnsuriah Massacre:
On 13 April 1996, at about 1:30 P.M., an IDF helicopter fired rockets at a vehicle carrying thirteen civilians fleeing the village of al-Mansuri, killing two women and four young girls. The vehicle was a Volvo station wagon with a blue flooding light, a red crescent painted on the hood and the word “ambulance” written in Arabic. Reporters at the scene filmed the incident. The film footage shows, and testimony of UN soldiers who arrived immediately after the car was hit corroborate, that there were no weapons or any other type of military equipment in the car, only some food and clothes. Amnesty’s investigation revealed that none of the passengers were connected to Hizbullah.


Nabatyaih Massacre:
18 April 1996, Eleven persons were killed and ten injured in an IDF air attack on a house in Nabatiyya al-Faqwah, some three kilometers north of Nabatiyya, in South Lebanon. Eight of those killed were from one family: a mother and her seven children, including a four-day-old baby. Around 6:30 a.m., IDF helicopters fired rockets at three buildings in the village, demolishing one totally and severely damaging the other two. Lebanese families were living in the buildings. The IDF Spokesperson claimed that the helicopters fired at the building in which the eleven were killed because Hizbullah was hiding there after firing the mortars. Investigations conducted by Amnesty and HRW did not confirm this contention The IDF&#39;s statement ignored the fact that the IDF fired at two other buildings during the same attack.

Qana Massacre :
18 April 1996, The "ethnic cleansing" operations carried out by the Zionist terrorist army have
encompassed not only Palestinian civilians, but Lebanese civilians in south Lebanon
as well.
In an attempt to break the power of the Lebanese Hizbollah organization, Zionist
forces undertook a military operation against south Lebanon. This operation was
likewise based upon the Zionist mentality, supportive as it is of blood-letting and
terrorism and based upon the belief that "exercising pressure against Lebanese
citizens . . . will lead in practical terms to comprehensive, overall pressure on account
of which the Hizbollah organization will be obliged to adhere to a ceasefire." Given
this reasoning, the Zionist forces bombed the shelter which was providing refuge to
approximately five hundred Lebanese, most of whom were children, elderly and
women who had been forced out of their homes by Israeli raids on their villages, and
who had been unable to get to Beirut. This bombing led to the deaths of 109
Lebanese civilians and seriously wounded 116 others. During the attack, Israeli
forces used between 5 and 6 advanced bombs designed to explode above their
target in order to cause the largest possible number of casualties. Moreover,
international investigations confirmed that the Israeli forces had deliberately targeted
the shelter.
Ali, one of those wounded in the attack, says, "I fled in the morning with two friends
and went for refuge to the emergency forces in Qana. I had my wife and my four
children with me. They led us into a shelter where there were about fifty people. Then
suddenly the sound of bombing rang out. A first shell, then a second fell near the
shelter, and as we were trying to get out, another shell hit the shelter directly. I don&#39;t
know what happened to my wife and children." Fadi Jabir weeps as he talks about
things he saw after the Israeli bombs fell on those who had left their homes to come
to the base for the UN Fayjiya peace-keeping forces. He says, "I heard people
shouting &#39;Allahu akbar&#33;&#39;, and a woman fell down unconscious. I reached out to get an
idea what had happened to her, and her brain fell into my hand." As for Sa&#39;d Allah
Balhas, who was wounded by a piece of shrapnel in the Zionist massacre, he says,
"In one second I lost everything: my children, 14 of my grandchildren, and my wife. I
don&#39;t want to live anymore. Tell the doctors to let me die."
Trqumia Massacr:
March 10 1998 :Israeli Occupied West Bank, March 10--Israeli soldiers opened fire with automatic
weapons on a van full of unarmed Palestinian workers, killing Adnan Abu Zneid, 34, and two other Palestinians. Two more laborers were wounded as the group returned from helping to construct a building near Tel Aviv. Eyewitnesses described the Israeli gunfire as "indiscriminate."
Israeli Army Maj. Uzi Dayan said that the soldiers acted "according to regulations" in opening fire on the van with automatic weapons at a checkpoint outside Hebron.
Ali Abu Zneid, 37, a cousin of the deceased, was in the van and fell uninjured under the others&#39; bodies. He said that the Jewish soldiers, "shot to kill."
Israeli Defense Minister Yitzhak Mordechai described the killings as an "accident"
Janta Massacre :
22/12/1998 (Lebanon):
Israeli warplanes waited for the children to come home from the field to embrace their mother when they carried out this savage attack. Mother and her 6 children
24 Of June 1999 Massacres
24/6/1999 (Lebanon)
Martyrs: 8
Injures: 84
Target: Under
Building in
Beirut
In an interview with the "kolhaer" magazine, five Israeli soldiers said that the artillery commander had said to his soldiers "We are skilled marksmen. Anyhow, there are millions of Arabs... It&#39;s their problem. Whether Arabs become one more or less is just the same...We have accomplished our duty.
The whole issue is not about more than a group of "Arabosheem" (a racist term hostile to Arabs used by the Israelis). We should have launched more shells to kill more Arabs.
Western Bekaa villages Massacre:
29/12/1999 (Lebanon):
The Israeli warplanes dropped bombs on he children who were celebrating the “eid” festival, killing eight children and wounding 11 others.

[KC]

RUV don&#39;t even bother. I already posted heaps of evidence against their pathetic zionist positions and they chose to troll instead of actually responding to the evidence presented. They&#39;re zionist trolls that support the massacre of women and children and won&#39;t change their views regardless of what you say.

[Revolution Until Victory]

"a defenceless people?"

Do the Palestinain people have any chance whatsoever, no matter how small and tiny it is, to stop zioinst aggression??
are the Palestinians able to defend themselves??
With a press of a button, the Zionist colony can wipe every single Palestinain from the face of earth.
The Palestinains are stateless, with no army, compared to the Zionist colony that got the most powerful army in the ME and the top 4 most powerful army in the world, hundreds of nuclear weapons, the best weapons and fighing technologies (Merkava, the best tank in the world, most powerful aircrafts in the world, smart bombs etc.), and is supported blindly, and unconditinaly by the world’s hyper nuclear power.
The Palestinians have a bunch of old AK-47 and home-made “rockets” made out of steel tubes.
Those “rockets” are probably the most inaccurate thing on the face of earth.
So many of them hit open fields, and some actually fire bake at them (NO, I’m not manking this up) the “rocket” is so inaccurate that it would turn around and hit those who launched it&#33;&#33;&#33;
However, the Palestinian people got justice and truth on their side, and that is enough to beat the most nazi power on earth.
If migh and power was the only important thing, Hitler would be ruling the world today.


Every single thing you have said was a lie. At best, it was twisting of words or semi-truths.
Can you really stop lieing for 3 seconds only?
I know it seems imposible, but try, I will help you man.

[Revolution Until Victory]

"RUV don&#39;t even bother. I already posted heaps of evidence against their pathetic zionist positions and they chose to troll instead of actually responding to the evidence presented. They&#39;re zionist trolls that support the massacre of women and children and won&#39;t change their views regardless of what you say."

yes of course, no question about it.
it was clear from the very begning of this topic.

[Question everything]

RUV, Great argument. :) I think the Zionists have given up. Oh and Where did you get you&#39;re DP? (it&#39;s awesome btw)

Hope to see you around the board

[Okocim]

Originally posted by Question [email protected] 17, 2007 10:05 pm
RUV, Great argument. :) I think the Zionists have given up. Oh and Where did you get you&#39;re DP? (it&#39;s awesome btw)

Hope to see you around the board
how long do you think it&#39;s going to take me to read through all them lies?

i&#39;ll do it when i&#39;ve got time.


tbh, on a quick scan read, it looks like a shit argument to me. A bunch of personal stories, so what? I can equally post you a bunch of stories about Israelis getting attacked, shot at, had their children murdered and blown up. but where does that get us? into a pointless argument based on appeals to emotion rather than concrete objective looking at facts.

[Question everything]

Death toll= (at it&#39;s best) 4 dead palestinians for every 1 Israel, Throw in personal stories, reports from the Local Communist party and Amenesty International (of systematic dissapearances and reports of torture from detainiees)... And I think the PLO comes out on top...

[Revolution Until Victory]

"how long do you think it&#39;s going to take me to read through all them lies?
i&#39;ll do it when i&#39;ve got time.
tbh, on a quick scan read, it looks like a shit argument to me. A bunch of personal stories, so what? I can equally post you a bunch of stories about Israelis getting attacked, shot at, had their children murdered and blown up. but where does that get us? into a pointless argument based on appeals to emotion rather than concrete objective looking at facts."

is that the best you can come up with???
look like the chalange to not lie for 3 seconds isn&#39;t working. Worke harder. You can do it.
the only long posts I have are a list of "IDF" acts of "defence" NON OF THEM are "personal stories" they are all simply listing the date and palce of the incedent, breif discription, and the casualties. no personal stories.
many short posts have been posted by me and others long ago and you couldn&#39;t refute them with your half-truths and lies.

oh, by the way, you are a Marxist-leninest, righ? :lol:

[Revolution Until Victory]

"RUV, Great argument. I think the Zionists have given up. Oh and Where did you get you&#39;re DP? (it&#39;s awesome btw)

Hope to see you around the board"

If your asking about my Avatar, it&#39;s a painting by the swis artist Mark Rudic.
Rudic went to Lebanon and was creating incredible posters for the PFLP (marxist-leninest palestinain liberation movement) and some for the DFLP
you can find an interview with him and several of his posters at:

http://www.nadir.org/nadir/initiativ/rev_l...jihad/jihad.htm (http://www.nadir.org/nadir/initiativ/rev_linke/sanat/jihad/jihad.htm)

[Revolution Until Victory]

Okicim, forget about the long posts. Reply to the short ones then.
you claimed the terrorist orgnization called the IDF was acting in Defence, I provided you a long list of acts of "defence" by the IDF; ignore them and answer the shorter posts by me and the rest of us.

[Okocim]

Originally posted by Revolution Until Victory+April 17, 2007 11:41 pm--> (Revolution Until Victory &#064; April 17, 2007 11:41 pm)is that the best you can come up with???
look like the chalange to not lie for 3 seconds isn&#39;t working. Worke harder. You can do it.
the only long posts I have are a list of "IDF" acts of "defence" NON OF THEM are "personal stories" they are all simply listing the date and palce of the incedent, breif discription, and the casualties. no personal stories.
many short posts have been posted by me and others long ago and you couldn&#39;t refute them with your half-truths and lies.[/b]

yes I can see you&#39;ve responded and like I said, I&#39;ll get back to you. BreadBros has also responded with quite a long reply so i&#39;ll get back to him too.

you might think you&#39;re the most important person in the world, but, regrettably, i do have other things to do right now. When I&#39;ve finished I will answer your lies.

Look like personal stories to me no matter how you try to defend them. I&#39;ll scroll to the middle of one:
"Ali, one of those wounded in the attack, says, "I fled in the morning with two friends
and went for refuge to the emergency forces in Qana. I had my wife and my four
children with me."

yup....looks pretty personal to me. :rolleyes:


in fact, taking a deeper look, i only see one post by you which seems to be directed at me (the one starting “the PLO has attacked innocent citizens” is presumably not directed at me because I never said that), which seems to be a rant with occasional allusion to possible truth but no figures or anything backing up what appears to be solely your personal opinion with a couple of buzz words thrown in.

BreadBros&#39; actually looks half decent.


Revolution Until [email protected] 17, 2007 11:41 pm
oh, by the way, you are a Marxist-leninest, righ? :lol:

No, I&#39;m a Marxist-Leninist.

Hello. :)

[Chicano Shamrock]

Originally posted by Okocim+April 16, 2007 12:34 pm--> (Okocim @ April 16, 2007 12:34 pm)
Chicano [email protected] 16, 2007 09:22 pm
The Israeli Army is a terrorist organization. It has nothing with them being Jewish. They don&#39;t get a license to kill freely just because of their religion. Is calling Al Qaeda a terrorist organization Anti-Muslim? I don&#39;t think so.
there is, however, quite a difference between al-qaeda and the IDF; the IDF acts in defence of civilians and the security of Israel against constant threat. It is not a religious organisation. Al-qaeda is a primarily religious organisation engaged in a process of "holy war" against unbelievers. [/b]
Good they should be under constant threat as long as they are imposing on the Palestinian people. You can&#39;t say that the IDF is in defense of civilians because anyone in Israel can not be considered a civilian. They are all part of a colonial military experiment. Like pointed out already they are thieves. Can you say that the Europeans who came to North America and slaughtered the natives were civilians? There is no difference between what happened then and what is happening now to the Palestinians.

I really can&#39;t fathom how a communist, a believer in equality, can support these Zionist scum. How you can support a system that is not only imperialist but treats these Arabs as lesser people is beyond me. That is fucking disgusting to me.

[Revolution Until Victory]

"Look like personal stories to me no matter how you try to defend them. I&#39;ll scroll to the middle of one:
"Ali, one of those wounded in the attack, says, "I fled in the morning with two friends
and went for refuge to the emergency forces in Qana. I had my wife and my four
children with me."
yup....looks pretty personal to me. "

if you have other things to do, and don&#39;t have time to read them, then don&#39;t comment on them and start your lies all over again. they are a list of incedents, with the date and place given and a brief discripiton of it. Only a few got personal stories WITH the origianl incidents. In other words, non of them is simply personal stories. a few got personal stories to shed more light on the incedent. you can easly remove those personal stories, and check only the incident.
I also have a lot of shit to do, but when your in some sort of a debate, you would expect the other person to actually respond to you.
that&#39;s why I asked to respond to the short posts that do not need any time to read them.
your right only one or two posts are directed at you.
1- you claim the IDF is acting in defence
2- the Palestinians are not a defencless people

so, you are a Marxist-Leninist? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Okocim]

Originally posted by Revolution Until [email protected] 16, 2007 05:34 am
hardcore liers&#33;

the wall isn&#39;t yet compelet. Far from it. and it&#39;s NOT know how much of it would exaclty be a wall or a fence. many parts of it are just temproray fences which will be transformed into a wall. Right now, a considrabel amount is wall.
not to mention, that there is absoulotly no difference at all wthere it was a wall, fence, or barrier as long as it stealing land and forcibly seperating families from each others.
you talk as if the wall only occasionly or in isolated cases steals Palestinian lands.
that is another blatant lie.
every single inch of this wall, currently, in built on Palestinian land. Not once inch is built on the Green Line.
you really can&#39;t foce the Palestinians to sell their lands and properties against their well to zionist colonizers&#33;
not to metiont the compensation is quiet lower than the actual value.
Palestinains have a right to their property and can&#39;t be forced to give it up or sell it.
Since construction of the fence began, the number of attacks has declined by more than 90%. The number of Israelis murdered and wounded has decreased by more than 70% and 85%, respectively, after erection of the fence.

Even the Palestinian terrorists have addmitted the fence is a deterrent. On November 11, 2006, Islamic Jihad leader Abdallah Ramadan Shalah said on Al-Manar TV the terrorist organizations had every intention of continuing suicide bombing attacks, but that their timing and the possibility of implementing them from the West Bank depended on other factors. “For example,” he said, “there is the separation fence, which is an obstacle to the resistance, and if it were not there the situation would be entirely different.”

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/fence.html



what&#39;s this? looks like an admission that without the fence there would be many more successful bombings and many more innocent Israeli civilians killed.

Personally I&#39;d say, though I don&#39;t know about you terrorist sympathisers, that putting up a fence to stop suicide bombers is an act of self-defence? no?

apparently not. :rolleyes: You prefer to have children indoctrinated with hate and sent to die for "allah" as martyrs, and who knows how the female children feel when they&#39;re told they get to be concubines for "martyrs" for the rest of eternity once they&#39;re dead. Why don&#39;t the leaders kill themselves if they&#39;re so keen? Rather than sending children to do their hateful task? http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=164e203801



Back to the fence though; do you realise how much 465miles worth of concrete wall would cost? On a purely economic basis it&#39;s ridiculous to assert that this security fence will be a wall when it&#39;s completed. About 10 miles of the fence is the concrete wall bit that we always see on biased news channels, and this is only in areas where snipers have been operating and killing civilians.

There are many gaps creating in the fence in order to try to minimise the effect on the "palestinians" and where farmland has been used, it remains completely the property of the farmer and the farmers are compensated fully for this use. It&#39;s regrettable that occasionally the fence strays onto their land but this has been largely minimised as much as is possible, but maybe, like my quote above shows, these farmers should tell their countrymen to stop blowing themselves up?

Changes have been made to the original planned route (at a cost of &#036;1.2billion more) in order to minimise the impact on the palestinian community (see earlier link).


every single inch of this wall, currently, in built on Palestinian land. Not once inch is built on the Green Line.

This is just a blatant lie.

Most of the fence runs roughly along the Green Line. The fence is about a mile to the east in three places that allows the incorporation of the settlements of Henanit, Shaked, Rehan, Salit, and Zofim. The most significant deviation from the 1967 line is a bulge of less than four miles around the towns of Alfei Menashe and Elkanah where about 8,000 Jews live. In some places, the fence is actually inside the “Green Line.”

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/fence.html


:rolleyes: at least try and make some effort to conceal your lies if you must tell them.

[Okocim]

Originally posted by Chicano [email protected] 18, 2007 12:20 am
Good they should be under constant threat as long as they are imposing on the Palestinian people. You can&#39;t say that the IDF is in defense of civilians because anyone in Israel can not be considered a civilian. They are all part of a colonial military experiment. Like pointed out already they are thieves. Can you say that the Europeans who came to North America and slaughtered the natives were civilians? There is no difference between what happened then and what is happening now to the Palestinians.

I really can&#39;t fathom how a communist, a believer in equality, can support these Zionist scum. How you can support a system that is not only imperialist but treats these Arabs as lesser people is beyond me. That is fucking disgusting to me.
Just a short answer:

actually, Arabs make up around 20% of Israel&#39;s population and they have complete equality, which is a hell of a lot more than can be said about the treatment and depictions of Jews in Arab countries, including, contravening Oslo II btw, in the PA-controlled areas.

http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/arab_me...trayal_jews.htm (http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/arab_media_portrayal_jews.htm)

[Chicano Shamrock]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 03:33 pm
Personally I&#39;d say, though I don&#39;t know about you terrorist sympathisers,
Are you really that fucking dense? Do you know what the definition of a terrorist is?

One who utilizes the systematic use of violence and intimidation to achieve political objectives

We are on a fucking communist website&#33; Most communists and anarchists believe in class war(using violence) to achieve political objectives. I thought that was pretty fucking clear..... unless you are some sort of state Communist that believe you can have some peaceful, non-violent transition into your dictatorship.

[Okocim]

Originally posted by Chicano [email protected] 18, 2007 12:45 am
Are you really that fucking dense? Do you know what the definition of a terrorist is?

One who utilizes the systematic use of violence and intimidation to achieve political objectives

We are on a fucking communist website&#33; Most communists and anarchists believe in class war(using violence) to achieve political objectives. I thought that was pretty fucking clear..... unless you are some sort of state Communist that believe you can have some peaceful, non-violent transition into your dictatorship.
an anarchist, lovely. :rolleyes: still waiting for your overnight revolution?


what did Trotsky say about individual terrorism? ;)

I know what the definition of a terrorist is, and if you think that communists who believe in seizing and destroying the current state are the same as religious zealots who blow themselves up to gain virgins in paradise or whatever, then, quite frankly, you&#39;re deluded.

[Revolution Until Victory]

first of all, caging people in, while ignoring the root casue is not gonna get you security.
the reason those suicide bobming happen are coz of the zionist colonialism.
no colonialism = no resistiance.
if you think you should build a wall, at least, at least, build it on the green line.

"but maybe, like my quote above shows, these farmers should tell their countrymen to stop blowing themselves up?"

but maybe, the zionists should tell their countrymen to stop their colonization??

the entire city of Qalqilya is sorounded alomost entirely by a wall&#33;&#33;
and yet, you claim its a fence?
really, relying on extreme propaganda sites gets you in major trouble ;)
there have been massive "israeli" propaganda efforts to stop the use of wall and repalce it with fence.
no mentioning that wehter the barrier was fence or wall is irrelivant as long as it
devide families and villages and steels more land.

Okocim, at least try to conceal your lies if you must tell them.
since the begning of this topic, almost every source you&#39;ve used was from a right-wing racist zionist, imperialist propaganda site; yet you claim to be a Marxist-Leninist :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

you want people to take you seriously, try to provide evidence from independet sources not from the pro-zionsit, racist, righ-wing propaganda site "jewishvertuallibrary"
sorry, I won&#39;t belive one word from disgusting propaganda sites. You claim something, you should back it up with FACTS and EVIDENCE NOT with propaganda
Okicim, would you trust Betselem, an "israeli" human rights orgnization?

"As with the previous route, most of the newly proposed route runs through the West Bank , and not along the Green Line"

http://www.btselem.org/English/Separation_Barrier/


"innocent Israeli civilians killed"
European colonizers who weren&#39;t in the army were not innocent civilians but theives and colonizers.
you can&#39;t be botha theif and innocent at the same time :huh:

"There are many gaps creating in the fence in order to try to minimise the effect on the "palestinians"
that is another lie.
few gaps, at times one gap is supposed to operate for over 100,000 palestinians.
you can&#39;t pass the gaps unless with a permit, which is many many times denied coz of a stupid excuse as usual.

Keep working on the challange with yourself, remember only 3 seconds with out lies.

[Okocim]

you guys like fun videos?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEYr2ZyCH8s

and you accuse Jews of..what was it..."treating these Arabs as lesser people". Interesting.





I won&#39;t belive one word from disgusting propaganda sites. You claim something, you should back it up with FACTS and EVIDENCE NOT with propaganda

prove it wrong then. :)

[Revolution Until Victory]

"actually, Arabs make up around 20% of Israel&#39;s population and they have complete equality"

WOW :huh: :huh:
I don&#39;t know about you, but I just lost any hope of your ability to not tell a lie for 3 seconds. it must be the longest 3 seconds of your life.

you reminded me, that acutally there is 3 short posts that you escaped from answering.
you claimed there is no dicrimination against arabs (although Mandela, Tutu, and ofifical UN commitees described the colony as Aprtheid) and I refuted this point.
there is no question that arabs are massively discriminated against in all forms possible (along with the oriental and falash jews) in realty. But we were only arguing that the colony is a racist Aprtheid even on paper.
you didn&#39;t anwer that post. Go back to it, and check the list of racist laws.

"prove it wrong then."
:blink:
I did very easly read the post again
when you make a claim, you should support it with facts and evidence; from relaible independet sources.
you can&#39;t make a claim, and then provide propaganda and lies from biased racist website, and demand other to work their way through the spins and lies.
YOU MAKE THE CLAIM--PROVIDE THE EVIDENCE

[KC]

Since construction of the fence began, the number of attacks has declined by more than 90%. The number of Israelis murdered and wounded has decreased by more than 70% and 85%, respectively, after erection of the fence.

Even the Palestinian terrorists have addmitted the fence is a deterrent. On November 11, 2006, Islamic Jihad leader Abdallah Ramadan Shalah said on Al-Manar TV the terrorist organizations had every intention of continuing suicide bombing attacks, but that their timing and the possibility of implementing them from the West Bank depended on other factors. “For example,” he said, “there is the separation fence, which is an obstacle to the resistance, and if it were not there the situation would be entirely different.”

What&#39;s your point? After the Nazis came to power crime dropped as well. So what?


what&#39;s this? looks like an admission that without the fence there would be many more successful bombings and many more innocent Israeli civilians killed.

There&#39;s no such thing as an Israeli citizen; there&#39;s only Israeli colonialists.


Personally I&#39;d say, though I don&#39;t know about you terrorist sympathisers, that putting up a fence to stop suicide bombers is an act of self-defence? no?

First, opposing the state of Israel doesn&#39;t mean you support "terrorists" (whatever that means). Second, putting up the fence went a long way in consolidating land recently gained by Israel. In other words, it fits in perfectly with their expansionist tendencies. And yet again, this tendency has been cloaked in "self defense".


you guys like fun videos?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEYr2ZyCH8s

and you accuse Jews of..what was it..."treating these Arabs as lesser people". Interesting.

How about you quit appealing to emotion and actually discuss the issue at hand? How about you or your zionist friend graffic respond to my earlier post?

[MarxistFuture]

Anyone supporting the Zionist state of Israel should be banned, or at least restricted.

As someone once said, Zionism is a form of racial discrimination, it places Jews first, and as someone who claims to be a Marxist-Leninist, for you to support placing someone above someone else, on religious grounds no less, is absolutely baffling. I personally believe this "comrade" has Jewish parents.

[Reuben]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 08:29 am
I personally believe this "comrade" has Jewish parents.
this is fucking irrelevant. He is chatting absolute shit but this irrelevant.

[RNK]

actually, Arabs make up around 20% of Israel&#39;s population

And how did this come about?

In 1941 Jews accounted for only 30% of the population; around 1950 they broke the "50%" gap and became the majority. Infact, in less than 20 years (from 1940 to 1960) the Jewish population almost tripled. And during this time, the Arab population decreased, in 1970 reaching its lowest point in 40 years.

Oko, did you bother replying about Yosef Weitz? The Transfer Committees?

[Reuben]

a very good guide as to how htis situation came about can be found in an intellgience report from 1948 written by the IDF itself which stated that the primaryreason for arabs fleeing was &#39;Direct hostile Jeiwsh [Hagganah/IDF] operations against Arab settlements’.

[RNK]

That was the point. Before 1948, Jewish agencies and organizations in Palestine spent a lot of time coming up with comprehensive plans and ideas on how to eject the Arab population and replace it with Jewish immigrants. These agencies combined to form the first Israeli government in 1948 and began executing their plans during the immediate war (and throughout the rest of the century).

[Okocim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 09:29 am
I personally believe this "comrade" has Jewish parents.
I regard that as a racist comment.

It&#39;s the kind of thing I would expect to hear from stromfront.

[RNK]

Originally posted by Okocim+April 18, 2007 05:35 pm--> (Okocim @ April 18, 2007 05:35 pm)
[email protected] 18, 2007 09:29 am
I personally believe this "comrade" has Jewish parents.
I regard that as a racist comment.

It&#39;s the kind of thing I would expect to hear from stromfront. [/b]
Please, Oko, you made so much of a big deal over "proof" and "evidence" -- so don&#39;t ignore it when it&#39;s presented to you on a silver platter.

[KC]

How about responding to the relevant posts, Okocim?

[Revolution Until Victory]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 05:35 pm
I regard that as a racist comment.

It&#39;s the kind of thing I would expect to hear from stromfront.

There is nothing racist in this. Your attitudes all prove that there is something personal about this issue. Your not just a person who happens to do some research and found out the zionist colony is right or something.

you try your best to demonize the Palestinians; something which is very often done by zionists or zionist jews

you use the zionist propaganda strategy of trying to prove irrelivant "facts"
example: you keep mentioning "there was no Palestinains before the 60&#39;s"
this is totally irrelivant; what the people call themselves is totally up to them.
the Palestinains could have started calling themselves "Palestinains" since one second ago: they would STILL be Palestinains.
whether they called themselves Palestinains or Chinese, they still existed long long long before the 60&#39;s ( in fact, they were calling themselves Palestinains since over a thousand years)

almost every single source you&#39;ve had was a zionsit, impereal, racist, right-wing propaganda site.

[Reuben]

okocim is a zionist arsehole - but attacking people other posters through speculations about their ethnicity is completely inappropriate. Moreover such kinds of attack have the potential to completely undermine the fabric of this message board.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

Originally posted by Okocim+April 18, 2007 05:35 pm--> (Okocim @ April 18, 2007 05:35 pm)
[email protected] 18, 2007 09:29 am
I personally believe this "comrade" has Jewish parents.
I regard that as a racist comment.

It&#39;s the kind of thing I would expect to hear from stromfront. [/b]
Much as I disagree with Okocim&#39;s reactionary stance on this topic, I think that comment about his parents was unnecessary and personal.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 11:41 pm
Arabs make up around 20% of Israel&#39;s population and they have complete equality


Hey, its just like in the US, where racism died in the 60&#39;s, and Black and Latino Americans are now fully equal in every sense of the word, and there is no such thing as white privelege, or racial discrimination anymore. Who knows why all the blacks are still poor, they must be lazy. And the Mexicans are invading our country....but We arent racist anymore whoppeeee&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

<_<








[Note....though its completely obvious, I will have to say, just for added assurance, that this was completely sarcastic and satical of American White Suburbia]

[Guerrilla22]

actually, Arabs make up around 20% of Israel&#39;s population and they have complete equality

Uhhhh no. Arab Israelis are not alowed to vote nor are they allowed to marry Jews.

[Question everything]

Hey, its just like in the US, where racism died in the 60&#39;s, and Black and Latino Americans are now fully equal in every sense of the word, and there is no such thing as white privelege, or racial discrimination anymore. Who knows why all the blacks are still poor, they must be lazy. And the Mexicans are invading our country....but We arent racist anymore whoppeeee&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;









[Note....though its completely obvious, I will have to say, just for added assurance, that this was completely sarcastic and satical of American White Suburbia]

If that isn&#39;t the understatement of the year Palestinians have as bad as minorities in America before the 60s and Okocim seems to be argueing (if I might continue along your analigy) at least we freed the slaves

By the Way More Fun Israeli Quotes...

"Who are they [the vicitims of zionist attacks]? Arabousim (Israeli equivalient of the N-word) two legged beasts"- Begin

(Upon being ask how to deal with Palestian peaceful protesters) "Cut of their testicles"- Sharon

The cheif of staff went so far as to say "The only Good Arab is a Dead Arab"

RUV- Thanks for the link

[Question everything]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 12:17 am
you guys like fun videos?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEYr2ZyCH8s

and you accuse Jews of..what was it..."treating these Arabs as lesser people". Interesting.





I won&#39;t belive one word from disgusting propaganda sites. You claim something, you should back it up with FACTS and EVIDENCE NOT with propaganda

prove it wrong then. :)
the Four last Quotes from the site...


Maybe it&#39;s god telling the civilized world that it&#39;s their DUTY to bring freedom to these poor souls.

*Cough* Neo-Con bastard *Coughs*


Medieval douches. Could a more undeserving society be sitting on top of the world&#39;s largest oil reserve. Must be god&#39;s idea of a sick joke.

Damn backward imperialist theist fucker


Right, come on and march towards us, without any weapons, the IDF will be very happy to take you on. Even in the Six-Day War, when you did have a lot of weapons and outnumbered us, you were utterly defeated, and you will be utterly defeated, again and again and again. Damn those Arabs sure are simpleminded...

Racist Bastard...


The fungus that is Islam converts through murder, extreme menace, intimidation and violence. Islam is, and always has been, a virus that kills the individual spirit of mankind, as well as all contradictory thought and sense of compassion. The philosophy&#39;s perspective on women is an abomination. And to think that just because someone memorizes a text -- any text -- makes him a spiritual leader, is a concept doomed to abject failure. Sooner better than later.

Now watch me turn it into a christian bashing article by changing 3 words and it is just as, possibly even, more true than the original (BTW I was born and raised Catholic)...

The fungus that is Christian Imperialism converts through murder, extreme menace, intimidation and violence. Christianity is, and always has been, a virus that kills the individual spirit of mankind, as well as all contradictory thought and sense of compassion. The philosophy&#39;s perspective on women is an abomination. And to think that just because someone memorizes a text -- any text -- makes him a spiritual leader, is a concept doomed to abject failure. Sooner better than later.

This brings me back to the old saying, "With friends like this who needs enemies?" ... I really can&#39;t see how you can defend yourself here ...

[Okocim]

Originally posted by Revolution Until Victory+April 18, 2007 06:50 pm--> (Revolution Until Victory &#064; April 18, 2007 06:50 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 05:35 pm
I regard that as a racist comment.

It&#39;s the kind of thing I would expect to hear from stromfront.

There is nothing racist in this. Your attitudes all prove that there is something personal about this issue. Your not just a person who happens to do some research and found out the zionist colony is right or something.[/b]

I regard it as entirely racist - it&#39;s saying that the only reason I support Israel is because I&#39;m a Jew. This is stereotyping my opinions on my ethnicity, I&#39;m sure you&#39;d all be outraged if anyone said that simply because someone&#39;s an Arab they are homophobic.


Originally posted by Revolution Until [email protected] 18, 2007 06:50 pm
you try your best to demonize the Palestinians; something which is very often done by zionists or zionist jews

you use the zionist propaganda strategy of trying to prove irrelivant "facts"
example: you keep mentioning "there was no Palestinains before the 60&#39;s"
this is totally irrelivant; what the people call themselves is totally up to them.
the Palestinains could have started calling themselves "Palestinains" since one second ago: they would STILL be Palestinains.
whether they called themselves Palestinains or Chinese, they still existed long long long before the 60&#39;s ( in fact, they were calling themselves Palestinains since over a thousand years)

almost every single source you&#39;ve had was a zionsit, impereal, racist, right-wing propaganda site.

it&#39;s entirely relevant when they make claim of a "right" to the land based upon the fact they group themselves as "palestinians".



Originally posted by Question [email protected] 18, 2007 09:57 pm
I really can&#39;t see how you can defend yourself here ...
easy: I think it was more important what the muslims were saying than what the commentator decided to add to it. I wasn&#39;t really listening to his remarks, and if I had time to find you another source without them, then I would.



Originally posted by Question [email protected] 18, 2007 08:11 pm
By the Way More Fun Israeli Quotes...

"Who are they [the vicitims of zionist attacks]? Arabousim (Israeli equivalient of the N-word) two legged beasts"- Begin

(Upon being ask how to deal with Palestian peaceful protesters) "Cut of their testicles"- Sharon

The cheif of staff went so far as to say "The only Good Arab is a Dead Arab"

RUV- Thanks for the link

They&#39;re original, never heard them ones, got a source?



Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 07:54 pm
Uhhhh no. Arab Israelis are not alowed to vote nor are they allowed to marry Jews.
er.... :blink: I don&#39;t know where you heard that arabs can&#39;t vote in Israel, but that&#39;s total bullshit. They even have their own parties. Israel is also one of the few places in the region where muslim Arab women may vote.

Arabs not being allowed to marry Jews is a valid point by you, and I disagree with this stance taken by Israel, but it is handled by the religious authorities who gained control over anything relating to religion as part of an agreement to get the religious Jews to support the existence of the state of Israel. Most Israelis simply marry in Cyprus. then their marriages are recognized by Israel.

However, before you scream about Israel, look at the policies relating to marriage in Arab countries in the region. If Arabs weren&#39;t trying to destroy Israel, the secular Israelis wouldn&#39;t have to give in to the religious ones on these issues anyway.



Revolution Until [email protected] 18, 2007 01:15 am
Okocim, at least try to conceal your lies if you must tell them.
since the begning of this topic, almost every source you&#39;ve used was from a right-wing racist zionist, imperialist propaganda site; yet you claim to be a Marxist-Leninist :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

you want people to take you seriously, try to provide evidence from independet sources not from the pro-zionsit, racist, righ-wing propaganda site "jewishvertuallibrary"
sorry, I won&#39;t belive one word from disgusting propaganda sites. You claim something, you should back it up with FACTS and EVIDENCE NOT with propaganda
Okicim, would you trust Betselem, an "israeli" human rights orgnization?

"As with the previous route, most of the newly proposed route runs through the West Bank , and not along the Green Line"

http://www.btselem.org/English/Separation_Barrier/

so prove it&#39;s lying then. You&#39;re the one with the problem with the source, I could get the facts from elsewhere if entirely necessary, but I just find it easiest to get them from there. Facts are facts regardless of where they&#39;re written.

The onus is on you to prove them wrong not just demand I use another site to prove them once again.

I&#39;ll give you, B&#39;Tselem doesn&#39;t seem bad, but it doesn&#39;t give figures:
"In some areas, a wall six to eight meters high has been erected in place of the barrier system."

this is true, what it fails to mention is why or exactly how much, which is pretty poor reporting tbh. And clearly they have an agenda against the Israeli state.

"Israel preferred this solution over alternate options that would cause less harm to the Palestinians."

examples?

[RNK]

Are you afraid to talk about Yosef Weitz and the Transfer Committees, Okocim?

[Revolution Until Victory]

"I regard it as entirely racist - it&#39;s saying that the only reason I support Israel is because I&#39;m a Jew. This is stereotyping my opinions on my ethnicity, I&#39;m sure you&#39;d all be outraged if anyone said that simply because someone&#39;s an Arab they are homophobic."

All i&#39;m saying is that your not supporting the zionist colony coz of your own convections but coz of other personal reasons.
I think it would be a completley ligitamte and un-racist question if you asked any of the anti-zionists here if they are arabs.
I know that so many jews, or actually the majority, think that coz they are jewish, they got to support zionism.

"it&#39;s entirely relevant when they make claim of a "right" to the land based upon the fact they group themselves as "palestinians"."

What are you talking about?
this is not the basis of their claim
Again, whether they call themselves Palestinains, Chinese, Syrians, Arabs, Iranians is irrelivant.
the basis for their claim is NOT their name.

"so prove it&#39;s lying then. You&#39;re the one with the problem with the source, I could get the facts from elsewhere if entirely necessary, but I just find it easiest to get them from there. Facts are facts regardless of where they&#39;re written.
The onus is on you to prove them wrong not just demand I use another site to prove them once again."

you are not getting it. It is you who made a claim. it is you who is supposed to give RELAIBLE evidence and facts to support it.
it is not my responsiblity to work through the carfuly orchstrated lies and propaganda.
please, next time, make the effort and use independent unbiased sources; else, you will not be taken seriously.

I claimed the Aprtheid barrier is not built on the Green line. I supported my claim with a respected human rights orgniaztion; I went as far as quoting an Israeli one&#33;
you denied this claim and provided propaganda from the most biased source on the Internet.
You were proven wrong by the independt human rights orgnization

besides, there are socres of posts which you and your zionist friend continue to ignore both from me and many other users.

[Okocim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 11:15 pm
Are you afraid to talk about Yosef Weitz and the Transfer Committees, Okocim?
I&#39;ll talk about it, what exactly strikes your interest?

[RNK]

I&#39;ve made atleast 3 posts pertaining to it. Read them and reply.

[Okocim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 11:29 pm
I&#39;ve made atleast 3 posts pertaining to it. Read them and reply.
If you&#39;re talking about your posts of quotes by Yosef Weitz on page 4 then I fail to see the relevance to the modern state of Israel.

I&#39;m sure I could drag out some noxious quotes from the same period by Arabs.

[RNK]

It is relevent because the modern state of Israel is the same Israel that was created in 1948; it has undergone no major transformation, no revolution, no policy change, nothing -- for all intents and purposes, the state of Israel today pursues and defends the same agenda pursued by Israel throughout the 1940s, 50s, and 60s.

You&#39;ve claimed that there is no "proof" that Palestinians are being oppressed by Israel; there is your proof right there -- the actions of pre-israel jewish organizations, the actions of the Israeli authority throughout the the first 30 years of its existence, which prove that Israel pursued a policy of illegally and forcibly expropriating Arab land, possessions and ways of life, and that Arabs were forced out of Israel throughout the 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s. You have defended Israel&#39;s actions as "self-defense" -- so answer to these facts and explain to us how bombarding villages with artillery to force the Arab inhabitants to flee, and then permanently occupying and settling that village with Jews, was done in &#39;self-defense&#39;. While you&#39;re at it, explain why Israel, to this day, refuses to unconditionally give up its illegal occupation and settlements in the West Bank? You run around toting about the Camp David Accord and how Arafat refused a 90% offer -- without mentioning that the original offer was to initially give Palestine 73% of the West Bank and that only in 10 to 25 years would this grow to 90%. That&#39;s hardly a "benefitial offer". Why can&#39;t Israel simply pull out from 100% of the West Bank now? Well, not today -- but why do they have to wait up to a quarter of a century? And why do the population of illegal Jewish settlers continue to grow? Why is Israel doing absolutely nothing to stop illegal expropriation of Arab land by Israelis? Do you expect the Arabs to do it themselves? Should Arabs invade the illegal settlements with tanks and attack helicopters and fighter-bombers, as the Israelis do to Arab communities? Place the entire population under curfew, and forcefully round them all up into military trucks and send them to the Israeli border and dump them there? Or maybe they should do what the Israelis did in 1948 and 1967 -- simply bombard the settlements with artillery until all the inhabitants flee, and then go in the next day and start claiming plots of land. Wait, isn&#39;t that what they&#39;re doing? Isn&#39;t that what you call "Hezbollah terrorism"?

Well, either you&#39;re going to hypocritically tell me that Jews had a right to do that to Arabs but Arabs don&#39;t have the right to do that to Jews, or you&#39;re going to pathetically refute the fact that this happened.

So yes or no? Was the Israeli strategy of expropriating Arab land legal or not? If so, you shouldn&#39;t have a problem with Hamas &#39;terrorists&#39; sending rocket barrages into Jewish settlements, since, afterall, that is the same stategy used to make those settlements. So, like I said, either the settlements are illegal, or Hamas has the right to bombard them with rockets.

[Question everything]

it&#39;s entirely relevant when they make claim of a "right" to the land based upon the fact they group themselves as "palestinians".

So what would you do if somebody walked up to your house and said "get the fuck out, Mohammed promised us this land 1300 years ago, now leave or get your head blown off."?


They&#39;re original, never heard them ones, got a source?

I found two of them Fateful Triangle written by Chomsky (sorry I know this isn&#39;t the best source but that is all I can remeber)

as for- "Who are they [the vicitims of zionist attacks]? Arabousim (Israeli equivalient of the N-word) two legged beasts"- Begin

I know I got a good source for this, but I can&#39;t find it right now, :unsure: If I do find the source I&#39;ll get back to you soon. :blush:

(Yay more fun Israeli quote, these ones are to shut you up about Muslim Fanactics and this time sources are cited)

the article heading read like this-

"Those among us with a humanistic attitude towards our [Arab] neighbours are reading the Halacha (religious law to anyone who isn&#39;t sure what that means) selectively and are avoiding specific commandments"

it goes on to say that Gentiles are "a people like donkeys", they must "serve" their Jewish conquers and be "degraded and low" and "must not raise their heads in Israel but be conquered beneath their hand... with complete submission"

(A more intact quote) he cited the Maimonides "that in a divinely-commanded war one must destroy, kill and eliminate men, women and children"

Yedia Segal, Nekudah Sept. 3 1982

[Chicano Shamrock]

Originally posted by Okocim+April 18, 2007 02:07 pm--> (Okocim @ April 18, 2007 02:07 pm)
Originally posted by Revolution Until [email protected] 18, 2007 06:50 pm

[email protected] 18, 2007 05:35 pm
I regard that as a racist comment.

It&#39;s the kind of thing I would expect to hear from stromfront.

There is nothing racist in this. Your attitudes all prove that there is something personal about this issue. Your not just a person who happens to do some research and found out the zionist colony is right or something.

I regard it as entirely racist - it&#39;s saying that the only reason I support Israel is because I&#39;m a Jew. This is stereotyping my opinions on my ethnicity, I&#39;m sure you&#39;d all be outraged if anyone said that simply because someone&#39;s an Arab they are homophobic. [/b]
I think that the original comment made about jewish parents was irrelevant as not all jews are pro-Israel. But if you are jewish and pro-Israel that is very relevant. You have been talking shit about Palestinians and now it makes sense. How can you be about equality or working class solidarity when you don&#39;t see yourself as a member of a class? You see yourself as Jewish and Palestinians as nothing. You are a fucking racist. You believe you are better than Palestinians by blood.

How can you call your self a communist and support Israel at the same time? You are a supporter of bourgeois Israel&#39;s imperialist armies and apposed to the Palestinian working class...... :(

[graffic]

Originally posted by Zampanò@April 18, 2007 02:41 am
There&#39;s no such thing as an Israeli citizen; there&#39;s only Israeli colonialists.




explain

[graffic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 06:54 pm

actually, Arabs make up around 20% of Israel&#39;s population and they have complete equality

Uhhhh no. Arab Israelis are not alowed to vote nor are they allowed to marry Jews.
Yes I think you&#39;ll find the Arabs actively enforce that because of their hatred of the Jewish race.

[graffic]

Originally posted by Zampanò@April 16, 2007 07:38 pm
[quote]Wrong, many Arabs and very few Jews existed. Hence why many Jews have immigrated back to Israel from America, Europe, Asia etc.

So Arabs and Jews coexisted.





Yes, Arabs, Jews, Americans, Chinese all coexist everywhere in many countries&#33;

However what is different about the other nationalitys which I have mentioned is they all have homelands. Whether nations should be like this is a another debate, but the fact is - thats the way the world works, and why should the Jews be left out?

A homeland is something wmost Jews have dreamed about for centuries its only because of the Holocaust that the governments of the world really took notice and gave the Jews what they wanted. Winston Churchill actually gave the Jews just 20% of the original promised land, which is a disgrace.

[graffic]

Originally posted by Zampanò@April 16, 2007 07:38 pm
The IDF is part of the Israeli state. Calling the IDF terrorist isn&#39;t "anti-semitic" at all you zionist troll. It actually is terrorist, since it regularly practices terrorism in the form of bulldozing houses and using Palestinians as human shields, as well as its overall expansionist policy.
You call a nations army a terroist organisation purely from anti-semite propaganda stories of International war crime.

Expansionist policy?

So you think the Jewish race should just fuck off and get nothing? Please look at an Atlas and study

a) The size of Israel and the size of the Jewish race
b) The size of surrounding Arab lands and the size of the Arab race

[KC]

explain

I think it explains itself.


Yes I think you&#39;ll find the Arabs actively enforce that because of their hatred of the Jewish race.

Yeah every single Arab is an anti-semitic Muslim suicide bomber. :rolleyes:

How much more racist can you get? Give me a fucking break.


Yes

So you&#39;ve finally conceded on a point. That&#39;s progress&#33;


However what is different about the other nationalitys which I have mentioned is they all have homelands. Whether nations should be like this is a another debate, but the fact is - thats the way the world works, and why should the Jews be left out?

Uh, no they don&#39;t. Black people don&#39;t have a "homeland". Arabs don&#39;t "have a homeland". There&#39;s no such thing as a black "state" nor is there such thing as an Arab "state". Your arguments are getting more and more pathetic by the post. Seems like you&#39;re just trying to grasp at stuff now just to maintain your position.


A homeland is something wmost Jews have dreamed about for centuries its only because of the Holocaust that the governments of the world really took notice and gave the Jews what they wanted. Winston Churchill actually gave the Jews just 20% of the original promised land, which is a disgrace.

Completely irrelevant. Just because someone wants something doesn&#39;t make it acceptable or justifiable. What a completely moronic argument&#33; :lol:


You call a nations army a terroist organisation purely from anti-semite propaganda stories of International war crime.

No, I call the IDF a terrorist organization because of the International war crimes they actually commit that are reported on objectively by sources that aren&#39;t "anti-semitic". You know, stuff like bulldozing civilian&#39;s houses and using palestinian women and children as human shields? Is The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,867343,00.html) an anti-semitic source? What about B&#39;Tselem (http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp), an Israeli human rights group? Is the Associated Press so blatantly anti-semitic that they would fake a video of IDF soldiers using a Palestinian man as a human shield (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3372145,00.html) (I highly doubt it)? These are just three sources that I found in a few minutes; imagine what I could find in a good hour or two&#33;

I could do the exact same thing with the bulldozing of homes; since it&#39;s actually written IDF policy, I could quote right from the IDF and you&#39;d be calling the IDF anti-semitic&#33; :lol:

I could also list the amount of UN resolutions that Israel has violated since 1955:

1. Resolution 106: "...‘condemns’ Israel for Gaza raid"
2. Resolution 111: "...‘condemns’ Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people"
3. Resolution 127: "...‘recommends’ Israel suspend its ‘no-man’s zone’ in Jerusalem"
4. Resolution 162: "...‘urges’ Israel to comply with UN decisions"
5. Resolution 171: "...determines flagrant violations’ by Israel in its attack on Syria"
6. Resolution 228: "...‘censures’ Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control"
7. Resolution 237: "...‘urges’ Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees"
8. Resolution 248: "...‘condemns’ Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan"
9. Resolution 250: "...‘calls’ on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem"
10. Resolution 251: "...‘deeply deplores’ Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250"
11. Resolution 252: "...‘declares invalid’ Israel’s acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital"
12. Resolution 256: "...‘condemns’ Israeli raids on Jordan as ‘flagrant violation"
13. Resolution 259: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation"
14. Resolution 262: "...‘condemns’ Israel for attack on Beirut airport"
15. Resolution 265: "...‘condemns’ Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan"
16. Resolution 267: "...‘censures’ Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem"
17. Resolution 270: "...‘condemns’ Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon"
18. Resolution 271: "...‘condemns’ Israel’s failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem"
19. Resolution 279: "...‘demands’ withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon"
20. Resolution 280: "....‘condemns’ Israeli’s attacks against Lebanon"
21. Resolution 285: "...‘demands’ immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon"
22. Resolution 298: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s changing of the status of Jerusalem"
23. Resolution 313: "...‘demands’ that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon"
24. Resolution 316: "...‘condemns’ Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon"
25. Resolution 317: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon"
26. Resolution 332: "...‘condemns’ Israel’s repeated attacks against Lebanon"
27. Resolution 337: "...‘condemns’ Israel for violating Lebanon’s sovereignty"
28. Resolution 347: "...‘condemns’ Israeli attacks on Lebanon"
29. Resolution 425: "...‘calls’ on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
30. Resolution 427: "...‘calls’ on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon’
31. Resolution 444: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces"
32. Resolution 446: "...‘determines’ that Israeli settlements are a ‘serious obstruction’ to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
33. Resolution 450: "...‘calls’ on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon"
34. Resolution 452: "...‘calls’ on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories"
35. Resolution 465: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel’s settlements program"
36. Resolution 467: "...‘strongly deplores’ Israel’s military intervention in Lebanon"
37. Resolution 468: "...‘calls’ on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return"
38. Resolution 469: "...‘strongly deplores’ Israel’s failure to observe the council’s order not to deport Palestinians"
39. Resolution 471: "...‘expresses deep concern’ at Israel’s failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
40. Resolution 476: "...‘reiterates’ that Israel’s claims to Jerusalem are ‘null and void’
41. Resolution 478: "...‘censures (Israel) in the strongest terms’ for its claim to Jerusalem in its ‘Basic Law’
42. Resolution 484: "...‘declares it imperative’ that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors"
43. Resolution 487: "...‘strongly condemns’ Israel for its attack on Iraq’s nuclear facility"
44. Resolution 497: "...‘decides’ that Israel’s annexation of Syria’s Golan Heights is ‘null and void’ and demands that Israel rescind its decision forthwith"
45. Resolution 498: "...‘calls’ on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon"
46. Resolution 501: "...‘calls’ on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops"
47. Resolution 509: "...‘demands’ that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon"
48. Resolution 515: "...‘demands’ that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in"
49. Resolution 517: "...‘censures’ Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
50. Resolution 518: "...‘demands’ that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon"
51. Resolution 520: "...‘condemns’ Israel’s attack into West Beirut"
52. Resolution 573: "...‘condemns’ Israel ‘vigorously’ for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters
53. Resolution 587: "...‘takes note’ of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw"
54. Resolution 592: "...‘strongly deplores’ the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops"
55. Resolution 605: "...‘strongly deplores’ Israel’s policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians
56. Resolution 607: "...‘calls’ on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention
57. Resolution 608: "...‘deeply regrets’ that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians"
58. Resolution 636: "...‘deeply regrets’ Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians
59. Resolution 641: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s continuing deportation of Palestinians
60. Resolution 672: "...‘condemns’ Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount
61. Resolution 673: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to cooperate with the United Nations
62. Resolution 681: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s resumption of the deportation of Palestinians
63. Resolution 694: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return
64. Resolution 726: "...‘strongly condemns’ Israel’s deportation of Palestinians
65. Resolution 799: "...‘strongly condemns’ Israel’s deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.

It seems like your argument fell to pieces the moment it came out of your mouth.


Expansionist policy?

Yes. Expansionist policy.


So you think the Jewish race should just fuck off and get nothing?

No "race" should have its own state. That&#39;s just fucking ridiculous.


Please look at an Atlas and study

a) The size of Israel and the size of the Jewish race
b) The size of surrounding Arab lands and the size of the Arab race

There aren&#39;t any "Arab lands" and there certainly aren&#39;t any "Arab states". Moreover, this whole idea of "the Jewish race" actually existing biologically is complete bullshit; your argument refutes itself&#33;

Oh, by the way, I&#39;m still waiting for you or one of your zionist buddies to respond to this post (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=65103&view=findpost&p=1292296098). It seems like you don&#39;t actually want to discuss these issues when actual evidence is brought up. I wonder why that is?

[graffic]

Originally posted by Zampanò@April 21, 2007 04:09 pm



Yes I think you&#39;ll find the Arabs actively enforce that because of their hatred of the Jewish race.

Yeah every single Arab is an anti-semitic Muslim suicide bomber. :rolleyes:

How much more racist can you get? Give me a fucking break.


I think you&#39;ll find most Arabs hate Jews, you can&#39;t deny that.

Your argument was that Jewish people don&#39;t allow Arabs to marry Jews, I think you&#39;ll find its slightly more stronger on the other side.

[KC]

I think you&#39;ll find most Arabs hate Jews, you can&#39;t deny that.

Uh, yes I can. Because it&#39;s not true. Unless you&#39;d like to substantiate your clame with some statistical evidence? Did someone survey every single Arab in the entire world and write up a report on it?

I think you&#39;ll find that most people living in the middle east are anti-Zionist, not just anti-semitic.



Your argument was that Jewish people don&#39;t allow Arabs to marry Jews, I think you&#39;ll find its slightly more stronger on the other side.

Where did I say that?

And why the hell didn&#39;t you respond to my entire post? Can I take that as a concession on your part that the IDF is in fact a terrorist organization? Because if you don&#39;t respond then you&#39;re going to have to concede. And I&#39;d still like to see you respond to all that evidence I&#39;ve posted.

[graffic]

Originally posted by Zampanò@April 21, 2007 04:09 pm
Completely irrelevant. Just because someone wants something doesn&#39;t make it acceptable or justifiable. What a completely moronic argument&#33; :lol:
Well in your eyes what would be justifiable? What would be acceptable?

All races have origins which still exist - Africa, the Carribean, China and Japan. The Jews originate from the Middle East, Anti-semitism forced them out and is threatening to at the moment.

[KC]

Well in your eyes what would be justifiable? What would be acceptable?

Are you going to respond to my posts? Or is this a concession?


All races have origins which still exist - Africa, the Carribean, China and Japan. The Jews originate from the Middle East, Anti-semitism forced them out and is threatening to at the moment.

All races have origins in their social construction, not in where they&#39;ve come from. Your entire argument is based on the fact that race is an objectively real, biological thing. Since it&#39;s not, your entire assertion is flawed.

EDIT: I&#39;d also like to add that everyone is "from" Africa anyways, so there&#39;s another reason why your entire argument is shit.

[graffic]

Originally posted by Zampanò@April 21, 2007 05:06 pm

I think you&#39;ll find most Arabs hate Jews, you can&#39;t deny that.

Uh, yes I can. Because it&#39;s not true. Unless you&#39;d like to substantiate your clame with some statistical evidence? Did someone survey every single Arab in the entire world and write up a report on it?


Its not true is it?

Are you being serious?

What about the fact that most of the Arab world denies the Holocaust?

Many Arab newspapers, such as Al-Hayat Al-Jadidah, the Palestinian Authority&#39;s official newspaper, often write that "the Jews" control all the world&#39;s governments, and that "the Jews" plan genocide on all the Arabs in the West Bank.

Articles in many official Arab government newspapers (notably those of the Palestinian Authority, Libya[citation needed], and Saudi Arabia[citation needed]) claim that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, reflects actual facts, and thus points to an international Jewish conspiracy to take over the world.

Jewish groups and European observers allege that Hizbullah&#39;s Al-Manar TV channel frequently airs antisemitic broadcasts, blaming the Jews for a Zionist conspiracy against the Arab world, and often airing excerpts from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which the Encyclopædia Britannica describes as a "fraudulent document that served as a pretext and rationale for anti-Semitism in the early 20th century."

The list go&#39;s on and on

[KC]

What about the fact that most of the Arab world denies the Holocaust?

Could you substantiate this with some evidence that the majority of Arabs either deny the holocaust or are anti-semitic? Good luck&#33;



Many Arab newspapers, such as Al-Hayat Al-Jadidah, the Palestinian Authority&#39;s official newspaper, often write that "the Jews" control all the world&#39;s governments, and that "the Jews" plan genocide on all the Arabs in the West Bank.

Articles in many official Arab government newspapers (notably those of the Palestinian Authority, Libya[citation needed], and Saudi Arabia[citation needed]) claim that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, reflects actual facts, and thus points to an international Jewish conspiracy to take over the world.


Wow, you&#39;ve proven that some Arabs are anti-semitic&#33; Of course, this is nowhere near evidence that the majority of Arabs are anti-semitic or deny the holocaust happened. I don&#39;t think you&#39;re going to be able to prove either of those outrageous claims so you might as well just stop trying.

But we&#39;re digresssing. I&#39;d like to see you respond to my previous posts instead of avoiding them. IF you don&#39;t I&#39;ll just have to assume that you&#39;ve conceded your position and agree with me that I&#39;m right, as if you&#39;re in a debate and can&#39;t respond to someone&#39;s points that&#39;s the only other option you have. So which is it; are you going to respond or are you going to concede to me?

[Revolution Until Victory]

"What about the fact that most of the Arab world denies the Holocaust?"

"fact"?? where the hell did you get this "fact" from??

if you wan&#39;t to be taken seriously, provide evidence from independent sources.
give evidence of those "anti-semetic" newspaper.

[graffic]

Which post?

I&#39;m quoting from a fucking Arab newspaper&#33; You goon, why can&#39;t you accept most of the world is anti-semite?

Edit: Arab world

[graffic]

Originally posted by Revolution Until [email protected] 21, 2007 05:24 pm
"What about the fact that most of the Arab world denies the Holocaust?"

"fact"?? where the hell did you get this "fact" from??

if you wan&#39;t to be taken seriously, provide evidence from independent sources.
give evidence of those "anti-semetic" newspaper.
Individuals from the Syrian and Iranian governments, as well as the Palestinian political group Hamas have recently published Holocaust denial statements[39] Denials of the Holocaust have been regularly promoted by various Arab leaders and in various media throughout the Middle East.[40] In August 2002 the Zayed Center for Coordination and Follow-up, an Arab League think-tank whose Chairman, Sultan Bin Zayed Al Nahayan, served as Deputy Prime Minister of the United Arab Emirates, promoted a Holocaust denial symposium in Abu Dhabi.[41] Hamas leaders have also promoted Holocaust denial; Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi held that the Holocaust never occurred, that Zionists were behind the action of Nazis, and that Zionists funded Nazism. A press release by Hamas in April 2000 decried "the so-called Holocaust, which is an alleged and invented story with no basis"[42]

Read please you daft ****

[Revolution Until Victory]

"I&#39;m quoting from a fucking Arab newspaper&#33; You goon, why can&#39;t you accept most of the world is anti-semite?"

"Al-Hayat Al-Jadidah, the Palestinian Authority&#39;s official newspaper, often write that "the Jews" control all the world&#39;s governments, and that "the Jews" plan genocide on all the Arabs in the West Bank.
Articles in many official Arab government newspapers (notably those of the Palestinian Authority, Libya[citation needed], and Saudi Arabia[citation needed]) claim that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, reflects actual facts, and thus points to an international Jewish conspiracy to take over the world.
Jewish groups and European observers allege that Hizbullah&#39;s Al-Manar TV channel frequently airs antisemitic broadcasts, blaming the Jews for a Zionist conspiracy against the Arab world, and often airing excerpts from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion"

is that what you call "quoting" from newspapers? is that what you call "evidence"?
you goon??

[graffic]

Originally posted by Zampanò@April 21, 2007 05:20 pm
I&#39;d like to see you respond to my previous posts instead of avoiding them.
Which posts?

[Vargha Poralli]

:lol:


I think graffic&#39;s main source of argument is Wikipedia. It seems that he is just cutting and pasting stuff from it.


Originally posted by graffic
Articles in many official Arab government newspapers (notably those of the Palestinian Authority, Libya[citation needed], and Saudi Arabia[citation needed]) claim that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, reflects actual facts, and thus points to an international Jewish conspiracy to take over the world.

He didn&#39;t even mind to cover his his stupidity.Exact Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs_and_antisemitism#Arab_newspapers)

Zampano you are just wasting time in it. He will never respond to your post. He just picks on what we say and twist it to his need.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

@ the Zionist troll "graffic" :


You&#39;re quoting from Wikipedia and it clearly says "citation needed". In other words, you&#39;re bullshitting.






Yes, Arabs, Jews, Americans, Chinese all coexist everywhere in many countries&#33;

However what is different about the other nationalitys which I have mentioned is they all have homelands. Whether nations should be like this is a another debate, but the fact is - thats the way the world works, and why should the Jews be left out?

What would your reaction be if a homeless guy came and took over your apartment? After all, why should so many people have a house and why shouldn&#39;t he?




A homeland is something wmost Jews have dreamed about for centuries its only because of the Holocaust that the governments of the world really took notice and gave the Jews what they wanted. Winston Churchill actually gave the Jews just 20% of the original promised land, which is a disgrace.


That&#39;s just hogswash.

How can you prove that a homeland is what "most Jews" have always dreamed about?

A lot of Jews participated productively in various societies worldwide. Many leading Marxists were Jews. They didn&#39;t seem to share your racist Zionist ideas about a "promised" homeland.

Who promised the homeland anyway? Jehovah? :P


In any case, the "Jewish nation" is a spurious concept, and even if I were to concede everything and admit that the Jews worldwide constitute a nation, how would you prove that their rights as a nation are more important than those of the Arabs?

Why do you assume that just because the so-called Jewish nation has no "land to call its own", then it can simply take over any piece of land as if were uninhabited real estate?

Israel as we know it today was formed by ethnic cleansing.

[graffic]

In a May 30, 2006 interview with Der Spiegel Ahmadinejad again questioned the Holocaust several times, insisting there were "two opinions" on it. When asked if the Holocaust was a myth, he responded "I will only accept something as truth if I am actually convinced of it".

Some of Ahmadinejad&#39;s supporters even propose an alternative genocide. Based on the story reported in the Book of Esther, Iranian author and Holocaust denier Nasser Pourpirar claims that Purim was the original Holocaust during which Jews exterminated all the original people of what is now Iran and Iraq. He further claims that pre-15th century AD Iranian history is a Jewish fabrication to cover up that genocide in 6th century BC.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

Ah&#33;

Another attempt to de-rail the discussion and take us off topic.

How exactly does this whole Iranian Holocaust-denial thing prove that the existence of Israel as an apartheid-state is justified?

[KC]

Which post?

Oh, you know, the one I just made earlier (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=65103&view=findpost&p=1292303162) and this (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=65103&view=findpost&p=1292296098) one that I made earlier that you conveniently avoided.



I&#39;m quoting from a fucking Arab newspaper&#33; You goon, why can&#39;t you accept most of the world is anti-semite?

Edit: Arab world

First, as RUV pointed out, you didn&#39;t quote from anything. Second, and more importantly, citing that one newspaper is anti-semitic (which you haven&#39;t even proven) doesn&#39;t prove that the majority of Arabs are anti-semitic or deny the holocaust. Hell, you could show that 20 newspapers are, but that wouldn&#39;t even come close to proving that the majority of Arabs are anti-semitic or deny the holocaust; it would just prove that those newspapers are, which is irrelevant. Like I said before, you&#39;re never going to be able to prove that the majority of Arabs are anti-semitic or deny the holocaust, so you should just stop trying.



Individuals from the Syrian and Iranian governments, as well as the Palestinian political group Hamas have recently published Holocaust denial statements[39] Denials of the Holocaust have been regularly promoted by various Arab leaders and in various media throughout the Middle East.[40] In August 2002 the Zayed Center for Coordination and Follow-up, an Arab League think-tank whose Chairman, Sultan Bin Zayed Al Nahayan, served as Deputy Prime Minister of the United Arab Emirates, promoted a Holocaust denial symposium in Abu Dhabi.[41] Hamas leaders have also promoted Holocaust denial; Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi held that the Holocaust never occurred, that Zionists were behind the action of Nazis, and that Zionists funded Nazism. A press release by Hamas in April 2000 decried "the so-called Holocaust, which is an alleged and invented story with no basis"[42]


Individuals? Organizations? Nowhere do I see evidence that the majority of Arabs are anti-semitic or deny the holocaust.

And again, respond to my earlier posts.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

This is getting more and more ridiculous.

The Zionist troll is basically throwing passage after passage from Wikipedia, all in an effort to prove that all Arabs are "anti-Semitic".

Even if we were to concde this idiotic point to "graffic", it still doesn&#39;t justify the existence of Israel as an apartheid state.

[graffic]

Ok I&#39;m not sure why I should have to prove most of the Arab world is Anti-semite. I think you cannot accept the point I&#39;m trying to make.

Its common knowledge, I&#39;m not saying every single Arab is anti-semite, but it exists in a stronger putrid form than most other countries. Youve thrown some information at me which hasnt had a legit source, Ive trusted what I&#39;m reading to an extent, and tackled the question. You on the other hand are trying to say I&#39;m making this up?

I&#39;d like you to prove to me with some sources why you think the Arab world isnt Anti-semite?

Why do you support a country which is Homophobic and sexist?

Israel is a liberal, democratic society, and you people need to realise this before yet another country gets trampled on by sharia law.

[Question everything]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 01:08 pm
Ok I&#39;m not sure why I should have to prove most of the Arab world is Anti-semite. I think you cannot accept the point I&#39;m trying to make.

Its common knowledge, I&#39;m not saying every single Arab is anti-semite, but it exists in a stronger putrid form than most other countries. Youve thrown some information at me which hasnt had a legit source, Ive trusted what I&#39;m reading to an extent, and tackled the question. You on the other hand are trying to say I&#39;m making this up?

I&#39;d like you to prove to me with some sources why you think the Arab world isnt Anti-semite?

Why do you support a country which is Homophobic and sexist?

Israel is a liberal, democratic society, and you people need to realise this before yet another country gets trampled on by sharia law.
I restarted a thread for this In the OI, so that Okocim can Join in... (He has been restricted...)

[RNK]

Why do you support a country which is Homophobic and sexist?

Why do you support a country that is imperialistic and oppressive?

[Vargha Poralli]

Well graffic come up with solid evidences that all Palestinians are homophobic and sexist then we might reconsider our support for them.

I mean solid evidences not usual cutting and pasting from Wikipedia. And also please refute the Information Zampano posted.

[Revolution Until Victory]

"Ok I&#39;m not sure why I should have to prove most of the Arab world is Anti-semite. I think you cannot accept the point I&#39;m trying to make."

it&#39;s very simple. Give evidence that most arabs or Palestinains are anti-jewish and we will believ you. There are evidence, for example, about the percentage of racist French or something. Provide a similar thing and we will believe you.
but that fact the arab world is anti-jewish or not is totally irrelivant to this discussion.
you can&#39;t claim or prove that most of the arab world is anti-jewish; on the other hand, we can easly prove that most of the zionist society is anti-arab. That is a fact. there have been surveys made which prove that the majority of zionists don&#39;t even want to live next to an arab.

"Its common knowledge, I&#39;m not saying every single Arab is anti-semite, but it exists in a stronger putrid form than most other countries."

"common knowlege"???
to whom exactly is it "common knowlege"? to the fundemental zionist racist, extremists? yes, probably.
for me, it&#39;s common knowledge that anti-semetism is much stronger in European countris compared to arab ones.
this whole issue of anti-semetism originated in Europe.
while the jews were being persecuted and discriminated against, they were living the best life they can get under the arab and muslims rule.
Relations between arabs and jews was the best until Zionism. and even now, Palestinains make the clear distiction between zionist and jew.
where did the holocaust take place?
what about the many Neo-Nazi groups that are NOT individual or isolated cases that spread through out Europe and the US, which have tens of thousands of supports, and statistics had shown that they have a MAJORITY of support from the population in several countries. They are even members of the government in some palces&#33;

"Israel is a liberal, democratic society"

first of all, no matter what kind of system the zionist colony got, it&#39;s a system established on stolen lands, which means there could be no democracy on stolen lands.
that of course, If we to accept the the zionist colony is a democracy; but that&#39;s a lie, to say the least.
the zionist colony is using the same propaganda used by Aprtheid South Africa.
South Africa used to say "we are the only democracy in Africa"
but they were the only WHITE democray in Africa.
the Zionist colony is not the only democracy in the Middle East.
it is the only JEWISH democracy in the Middle East (only on paper and the law; in pracitce, it&#39;s not even a democracy for jews were they are classified as 1, 2, 3 etc class citezens)
the zionist colony is neither a democracy in law nor in paractice.
the Zionist colony, even under the law, doesn&#39;t give equal rights for all of its citezens.

- Law of Return (1950)

- the Law of Absentee Property (1950)

- the Law of the State&#39;s Property (1951)

- the Law of Citizenship (1952)

- the Status Law (1952)

- the Israel Lands Administration Law (1960)

- the Construction and Building Law (1965)

- and the 2002 temporary law banning marriage between Israelis and Palestinians of the occupied territories.

[KC]

Ok I&#39;m not sure why I should have to prove most of the Arab world is Anti-semite.

Because that&#39;s what you claimed:


Originally posted by You
Yes I think you&#39;ll find the Arabs actively enforce that because of their hatred of the Jewish race.


Its common knowledge, I&#39;m not saying every single Arab is anti-semite, but it exists in a stronger putrid form than most other countries. Youve thrown some information at me which hasnt had a legit source, Ive trusted what I&#39;m reading to an extent, and tackled the question. You on the other hand are trying to say I&#39;m making this up?

I&#39;m saying that you&#39;re extremely exaggerating the extent of anti-Semitism in the Middle East in order to somehow justify Israeli&#39;s political policies (of course, even if anti-semitism was that strong in the Middle East, that wouldn&#39;t justify Israeli expansionist policy by any means, so your point is shit regardless).


Why do you support a country which is Homophobic and sexist?

Please show me where I&#39;ve done that.

GRAFFIC, YOU ARE STILL REFUSING TO ADDRESS MY POSTS THAT I HAVE REPEATEDLY ASKED YOU TO ADDRESS. IF YOU WILL NOT ADDRESS THEM THEN I AM GOING TO ASSUME THAT YOU HAVE CONCEDED AND WILL MOVE TO GET THIS THREAD CLOSED OR MOVED.

[norwegian commie]

I find it disqusting that you support Israel, it is nothing but an capitalist countrie made with imperialism and oppression. Children is getting ship by apache helicopter goddammnit.

[Question everything]

Originally posted by norwegian [email protected] 25, 2007 12:14 pm
I find it disqusting that you support Israel, it is nothing but an capitalist countrie made with imperialism and oppression. Children is getting ship by apache helicopter goddammnit.
Most of us hate it. only Graffic supports it.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

Ok I&#39;m not sure why I should have to prove most of the Arab world is Anti-semite. I think you cannot accept the point I&#39;m trying to make.

You see, you have no point to make. You&#39;re just trying to appeal to emotions here, which is essentially what most Zionists and their sympathizers do.


Its common knowledge, I&#39;m not saying every single Arab is anti-semite, but it exists in a stronger putrid form than most other countries.

Anti-semitism in the Arab world became strong only in the 30s, when the British began allowing Jewish migration to the Palestine region. Even at that time, it wasn&#39;t such a strong force.

The main source of Arab anti-Semitism is the Apartheid-State of Israel.

White South Africans could easily accuse the blacks of "anti-white" racism, and in doing so justify the apartheid state of South Africa. Are you following that line of reasoning?

Historically, the Arab world was far more tolerant of the Jewish people, more so than even Europe.
At a time when Jews were persecuted all over Europe, they were free to live as citizens of Al-Andalus, i.e. Arab-controlled Spain. Some of the greatest artistic and cultural achievements of the Jewish people date from that time.



Youve thrown some information at me which hasnt had a legit source, Ive trusted what I&#39;m reading to an extent, and tackled the question. You on the other hand are trying to say I&#39;m making this up?

You are welcome to question the validity of any sources we present. The point is, I&#39;ve basically restricted myself to de-constructing YOUR arguments.

You&#39;ve basically come up with one irrelevant argument after another.



I&#39;d like you to prove to me with some sources why you think the Arab world isnt Anti-semite?

OK. I&#39;d like you to prove to me with some sources how this justifies expelling hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs from their lands.



Why do you support a country which is Homophobic and sexist?

What country are you talking about?


Israel is a liberal, democratic society, and you people need to realise this before yet another country gets trampled on by sharia law.

Of course.

Then its perfectly OK for European settlers to conduct a genocide of the Native American people, because after all, they were going to set up a liberal, democratic society, right? :rolleyes:

And then its perfectly OK for European colonialists to invade African and Asian territories, because they were advanced capitalist societies, and the colonies were "backward", right?

You&#39;re trying to justify colonialism. Admit it, and we can move on.

[che118]

Down with the Zionist occupation&#33;. The Palestinians need to stop with all this peace talk rubbish, Palestinians need to fight together to take down this illiegal and immoral occupation.

I don&#39;t think that HAMAS is the right political party for this cause, such a conservative religious oriented party is good for no one. Hopefully the PFLP can one day come inot power

What do you guys think of Ahmedinajad?

[Revolution Until Victory]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 11:45 am
Down with the Zionist occupation&#33;. The Palestinians need to stop with all this peace talk rubbish, Palestinians need to fight together to take down this illiegal and immoral occupation.

I don&#39;t think that HAMAS is the right political party for this cause, such a conservative religious oriented party is good for no one. Hopefully the PFLP can one day come inot power

What do you guys think of Ahmedinajad?
well actually, the Palestinain resistance should only be dedicated to armed strugle, peoples war, and popular revolution; it should not be involved in Politics.
So neither Hamas nor the PFLP should get involved in the Political process, and should follow the succesfull examples of Algeria and Vietnam were they had an almost unified resistance movment, not envolved in Politics, fighing a Peoples war that succefuly achieved its freedom and indpendence.

As a communit, you might think that Hamas being a relegious movment is unacceptable. But aside from being relegious, the movement got nothing wrong about it. It is the most active militarly now, got massive social development projects and even got chritian members. Just in the last election, A christain MP ran for Hamas.

Aside from the PFLP, ther is also the DFLP, a smaller marxist-leninist group, and Fateh, the nationalist secular one.
In the last elections, Palestinians really had no other choice.
Since 1988, Fateh became too much corropte and gave up on Palestinian rights. the PFLP and the DFLP were in genral, weak for the last few years. On the other hand, Hamas was very acitve, and never compromised on Palestinain rights.

btw, here is the website of the DFLP

http://www.dflp-palestine.org/

and this is the DFLP website in Spanish:

http://www.fdlpalestina.org/index.htm

[PRC-UTE]

to answer the original question- we oppose Israel because it&#39;s a state based on a sectarian/racist headcount that divides the working class. It was founded to be a "loyal ulster in Palestine" as Lord Balfour phrased it.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 01:08 pm
Ok I&#39;m not sure why I should have to prove most of the Arab world is Anti-semite. I think you cannot accept the point I&#39;m trying to make.

Its common knowledge, I&#39;m not saying every single Arab is anti-semite, but it exists in a stronger putrid form than most other countries. Youve thrown some information at me which hasnt had a legit source, Ive trusted what I&#39;m reading to an extent, and tackled the question. You on the other hand are trying to say I&#39;m making this up?

I&#39;d like you to prove to me with some sources why you think the Arab world isnt Anti-semite?

Why do you support a country which is Homophobic and sexist?

Israel is a liberal, democratic society, and you people need to realise this before yet another country gets trampled on by sharia law.
It&#39;s pretty obvious what Graffic&#39;s game is. Were he cheerleading for any other racist nation state he&#39;d be restricted in OI by now.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 02:58 pm


a) The size of Israel and the size of the Jewish race
b) The size of surrounding Arab lands and the size of the Arab race
These are the strangest arguments I&#39;ve ever heard from a supposed "leftist".

We don&#39;t recognise "racial boundaries"; this is the politics of fascism.

You keep ranting about how anti-semetic and backwards the Arabs are, yet until recently the Arab world had one of the largest communist movements in the world (Iraq, specifically). The Arabs are not one "race" you can make general comments about with any reliable accuracy.

[RedKnight]

Originally posted by Revolution Until Victory+April 26, 2007 07:13 pm--> (Revolution Until Victory &#064; April 26, 2007 07:13 pm)
[email protected] 26, 2007 11:45 am
Down with the Zionist occupation&#33;. The Palestinians need to stop with all this peace talk rubbish, Palestinians need to fight together to take down this illiegal and immoral occupation.

I don&#39;t think that HAMAS is the right political party for this cause, such a conservative religious oriented party is good for no one. Hopefully the PFLP can one day come inot power

What do you guys think of Ahmedinajad?
well actually, the Palestinain resistance should only be dedicated to armed strugle, peoples war, and popular revolution; it should not be involved in Politics.
So neither Hamas nor the PFLP should get involved in the Political process, and should follow the succesfull examples of Algeria and Vietnam were they had an almost unified resistance movment, not envolved in Politics, fighing a Peoples war that succefuly achieved its freedom and indpendence.

As a communit, you might think that Hamas being a relegious movment is unacceptable. But aside from being relegious, the movement got nothing wrong about it. It is the most active militarly now, got massive social development projects and even got chritian members. Just in the last election, A christain MP ran for Hamas.

Aside from the PFLP, ther is also the DFLP, a smaller marxist-leninist group, and Fateh, the nationalist secular one.
In the last elections, Palestinians really had no other choice.
Since 1988, Fateh became too much corropte and gave up on Palestinian rights. the PFLP and the DFLP were in genral, weak for the last few years. On the other hand, Hamas was very acitve, and never compromised on Palestinain rights.

btw, here is the website of the DFLP

http://www.dflp-palestine.org/

and this is the DFLP website in Spanish:

http://www.fdlpalestina.org/index.htm [/b]
There is also the Palestinian People&#39;s Party, which I am supportive of. http://www.palpeople.org/english/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_People&#39;s_Party

[forever socialist]

I condem Israeli military action against the Palestinian, as I also condem the suicide bombings by Palestinian militants. However, after all the persecution the Jewish people have suffered throughout history, they desserve a place they can call home. A place were they can be safe. Equaly, the Plasetinian people need their own state and Isreal needs to respect the rights of the Plastinian populace in Gaza and the West Bank, and within the borders of Israel.

We need to remember that Israel is a state created, in a large part, by European colonialism after the major wars. Those Imperialist ties are still in effect, as shown by Israel&#39;s alligence with the United States. This is the secondary, and more dangerous aspect of the Israeli state. The way America has armed Israel over the years in an effort to hold down the Arab states that are hostile to the West, for example, Iran and in the past Iraq.

The existence of Israel is important to serve as a homeland for the needs of the jewsish race , but it needs to be more independant of America, and more tolerant towards it s Palestinian inhabitants and neighbours. It is may hope that these people can live in peace.

[Black Dagger]

I renamed the thread from "Israel: Why?" to its current form so people browsing the forum would have more of an idea what this thread is meant to be about.

[forever socialist]

Am I going off the point? Well I think my previous point conveys that I am not anti-Israeli or anti-zionist.

[sexyguy]

"Israel: Why?

Do you mean fascist Zionland? That imperialist excrement on the doorstep of the Middle East will be swept into the see.

Why are so many on this site keen to rummage through the draws of the victimised Palestinian people looking for evidence of criminality, when the robbing racist “smiting” perpetrators of all the agro are still not yet in the dock ?

[Revolution Until Victory]

Originally posted by forever [email protected] 30, 2007 07:17 pm
I condem Israeli military action against the Palestinian, as I also condem the suicide bombings by Palestinian militants. However, after all the persecution the Jewish people have suffered throughout history, they desserve a place they can call home. A place were they can be safe. Equaly, the Plasetinian people need their own state and Isreal needs to respect the rights of the Plastinian populace in Gaza and the West Bank, and within the borders of Israel.

We need to remember that Israel is a state created, in a large part, by European colonialism after the major wars. Those Imperialist ties are still in effect, as shown by Israel&#39;s alligence with the United States. This is the secondary, and more dangerous aspect of the Israeli state. The way America has armed Israel over the years in an effort to hold down the Arab states that are hostile to the West, for example, Iran and in the past Iraq.

The existence of Israel is important to serve as a homeland for the needs of the jewsish race , but it needs to be more independant of America, and more tolerant towards it s Palestinian inhabitants and neighbours. It is may hope that these people can live in peace.
first of all, if you think the jewish people desevrve a homeland, then it DEFENATLY shouldn&#39;t be on someone else expense, blood, ruins, and properties. Don&#39;t you think??
in case you didn&#39;t know, the zionist settler-colony is built on stolen Palestinain lands. this is immoral; this is illegitamtie; this is unacceptable.
how on earth do you dare claim your a socialist, no, not any kind of socialist, but socialist forever, when you are demanding the exact same demands demanded by the European colonizers of the Native South Africans.
the European colonizers demanded the indegnous South Africans to accept less than 20% of their homeland; to accept the Bantustan solution.
your demanding the Native Palestinains to accept the Bantustans (West bank and Gaza) which is very similar to the percent "given" to the Native South Africans.
The Native South Africans rejected the Bantustans, fought bravely in a popular guerilla warfare, and finally got their freedom, rights, and independece.
the Palestinains are no less than their South Africans brothers in arms. They are an inspiration. Palestinains will never accept the Bantustans. Popular war, revolutionary violence, and armed struggle will be the Palestinain solgan towards freedom and independence.
Any one who isn&#39;t anti-Israel, anti-zionists, wehter knowingly or not, is pro-imperialism, pro-injustice, pro-colonialism, pro-racism, pro-Aprtheid.
to prevent any doubt from your side, here is the evidence (which, if you have read this thread, would have seen more than once):

- Prior to the UN partition plan in 1947, the UN created the Survey of Palestine committee to investigate the situation in Palestine and gather importan statistics.
P.566 of this offical survey show that arabs in Palestine owned over 94% of the entire area of Palestine, while the zionists owned 5.8%

- The CCP Refugee Office (Concelation Commitee created by the UN) estimated that although only a little more than a quarter was considered cultivable, more than 80 percent of Israel&#39;s total area of 20,850 km.sq. represented land abandoned by the Arab refugees. Three-quarters of the former Arab land was sub-marginal land or semi-desert in the Negeb.

- Subcommittee 2 of the Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestine Question stated in its report to the United Nations General Assembly the following:
Closely connected with the distribution of population is the factor of land ownership in the proposed Jewish State. The bulk of the land in the Arab State, as well as in the proposed Jewish State, is owned and possessed by Arabs. This is clear from the following statistics furnished to the Sub-Committee by the United Kingdom representative, showing the respective percentages of Arab and Jewish ownership of land in the various sub-districts of Palestine.

Building a settelr-colony on the expense of another people is immoral to ANYONE, let alone a "socialist forever".

on the issue of Palestinain resistance, it was already explained on this thread. The situation in Palestine isn&#39;t different form the situation that was between the European colonizers and the Angola, Congo, South Africa, N. America, Canada, Australia, Indonesia, New Zealand, Algeria and all other colonized people.
All colonized people from Algeria to Indonesia faught against BOTH the armed AND un-armed colonizers?? why? coz they are colonizers, land robbers, theives, and in no way they are "innocent civlians"
there is NO innocent civlians in the so-called "state" Israel. "Israel" is a settler colony, its inhabitants are colonizersa and thieves, denying the Native the right to return, like those of South Africa, Congo, Algeria etc.
Please explain to me how could you be both an "innocent civlian" and a land thief AT THE SAME TIME&#33; how could you be a colonizers like those of Congo, Algeria, South Africa, Australia etc. and AT THE SAME TIME, be an "innocent civilian"???
NEVER in history were robbers, thieves, settlers, colonizers who live on stolen and robbed lands and properties considred "innocent civlians"
no one can steal and live in peace.
this is absurd
the only innocent civlians are the minors and children who are not old enough to be responsible for their colonial action, and those zionists who do not live on stolen land (but the zionists were only able to purchase 5.8% of Palestine; any one living outside of that area is a colonizer and land thief)
This is what was said about the issue earlier in the thread:


“the PLO has attacked innocent citizens”

when you live on stolen and robbed lands, homes, and farms, you are being a colonizer, a thief, a robber, NOT an innocent civilians.
The unarmed european colonizers in North America, New Zealand, Angola, Congo, Indonesia, Algeria, Australia, and South Africa etc were all legitamite target for the Native resistence
Why?
After all, those people are not solidiers, why were they targeted by the native resistance?
Simple. Colonizers, whether armed or not, are NOT innocent civilians, they are thieves and robber denying the natives from returning to their house.
When a person willingly decides to be a colonizer and steal land; he shouldn’t expect to live in peace.
Palestinians consider every Zionist that lives willingly on their home and on their land to be their enemy.
The only innocent civilians in the Zionist colony are minors and children who are not responsible for their action and are not targeted by the resistance; and any Zionists that live on legally purchased homes and lands; however, only 5.8% of Palestines entire area was legally purchased by the Zionists. The Palestinians, however, try to not harm the innocent with their extremely inaccurate weapons.

Also,


Good they should be under constant threat as long as they are imposing on the Palestinian people. You can&#39;t say that the IDF is in defense of civilians because anyone in Israel can not be considered a civilian. They are all part of a colonial military experiment. Like pointed out already they are thieves. Can you say that the Europeans who came to North America and slaughtered the natives were civilians? There is no difference between what happened then and what is happening now to the Palestinians.

[Revolution Until Victory]

"Why are people on the left anti-Israel"

what a stupid question&#33;&#33;

there should be absoultly no argument about such an issue between anyone, let alon leftists.

this is as stupid as saying

"why are people on the left anti-Portugese colonization of Angola"

"why are people on the left anti-French colonization of Algeria"

"why are people on the left anti-European colonization of South Africa"

"why are people on the left anti-Dutch colonization of Indonesia"

[forever socialist]

Comrades;
First of all it is not as simple as the "Israelis impossing upon the opressed Palestian people". The jewish and Palestinian races have both lived in the area for thousands of years so there is no clear way of ascertaining who has greater rights to the land. I don&#39;t see how you can compare this to aprathied in South Africa, the palestinians are allowed full political rights, they have their own Prime Minister for a start. They have no greater claim to the land than the Israeli people do.
Would you cast the populace of the U.S, or South America,or any other place, into the sea for originaly encroaching on the native people&#39;s land? Its not a viable solution to irradicate the state of Israel. It is beyond any of us to undo what has been done in the past and todays generation of Israelis do not still desserve to pay for living in a homeland they require. Vilolence against innocent civilians, yes that is what they are, is wrong, wrong, wrong and to condon such action by the militant minority of the Palestinians, is grossly irresponsible and anything but moral.
AS A SOCIALIST I have come to view people as equals and both these races have rights, it is just as wrong to destroy Israel as it is to attack the Palestinians. This would mean conflict would forever rage in the region, costing countless more lives.
This is the Palestinians and Israelis homeland and I belive they can, and are, learning to live in peace and co-exist.

[la-troy]

AS A SOCIALIST I have come to view people as equals and both these races have rights, it is just as wrong to destroy Israel as it is to attack the Palestinians.

who do you think is more in the wrong?

[Revolution Until Victory]

Originally posted by forever [email protected] 01, 2007 08:18 pm
Comrades;
First of all it is not as simple as the "Israelis impossing upon the opressed Palestian people". The jewish and Palestinian races have both lived in the area for thousands of years so there is no clear way of ascertaining who has greater rights to the land. I don&#39;t see how you can compare this to aprathied in South Africa, the palestinians are allowed full political rights, they have their own Prime Minister for a start. They have no greater claim to the land than the Israeli people do.
Would you cast the populace of the U.S, or South America,or any other place, into the sea for originaly encroaching on the native people&#39;s land? Its not a viable solution to irradicate the state of Israel. It is beyond any of us to undo what has been done in the past and todays generation of Israelis do not still desserve to pay for living in a homeland they require. Vilolence against innocent civilians, yes that is what they are, is wrong, wrong, wrong and to condon such action by the militant minority of the Palestinians, is grossly irresponsible and anything but moral.
AS A SOCIALIST I have come to view people as equals and both these races have rights, it is just as wrong to destroy Israel as it is to attack the Palestinians. This would mean conflict would forever rage in the region, costing countless more lives.
This is the Palestinians and Israelis homeland and I belive they can, and are, learning to live in peace and co-exist.
the Palestinains own the land (except for 5.8% purchased by the zionists) I have clearly provided the Offical UN documents, and I can provide more if you like. Seriously, you can&#39;t after I&#39;ve posted all those evidence just show up and say "it&#39;s not clear" that&#39;s bullshit.

Nelson Mandela, Tutu, the UN had all compared the settler-colony to Aprtheid South Africa. In fact, they all said the settler-colony is at least 10 times worse than South Africa. Even if we are not talking about the occupied terrtories, inside the colony itself, there is Aprtheid. Palestinains DO NOT have equal rights in the colony.
the following are discrimanatory and racist Aprtheid laws. Of course we are only aruging about the colony being Aprtheid in law; in pracitce, there is absoultly no question about it.

- Law of Return (1950)

- the Law of Absentee Property (1950)

- the Law of the State&#39;s Property (1951)

- the Law of Citizenship (1952)

- the Status Law (1952)

- the Israel Lands Administration Law (1960)

- the Construction and Building Law (1965)

- and the 2002 temporary law banning marriage between Israelis and Palestinians of the occupied territories.


"They have no greater claim to the land than the Israeli people do. "

I mean, if you said this stupid statement before I posted the evidence, it might have been less disgusting. But I have just provided you with the most concrete and solid evidence you can think of, and now you tell me "no one got a great claim"??&#33;&#33;

"Would you cast the populace of the U.S, or South America,or any other place, into the sea for originaly encroaching on the native people&#39;s land?"

this issue had nothing to do with the places you listed. those places, US, South America, had been colonized over 500 yrs ago&#33;&#33; no one knows who exaclty own what any more.(that doesn&#39;t mean the issue ended howerver, it just made much more complicated) the Palestinains who were dipossesed and have their keys to their homes with them. Some are not even old and are in their late thirties (those expelled during the 67 war). Besides, the natives were colonized and their land soten in US and Latin America when there was no Geneva conventions and International law that recorded their lands and ownership. this of course is not the case with the Palestinains. When they were colonized, there was International law and Geneva conventions which like I demonstrated, granted the Palestinains their right and officaly recorded their owenership. Those example do not compare.

"Vilolence against innocent civilians, yes that is what they are, is wrong, wrong, wrong and to condon such action by the militant minority of the Palestinians, is grossly irresponsible and anything but moral."

I asked you to explain to me. How could someone, over 18 yrs old, responsible for his action, live on stolen lands, robbed lands and homes that do not belong to him, deny its owner the right to return, and bea colonizer and yet claim to be "innocent"??? He is a colonizer, like all other colonizers before him. No peace for colonizers.
there is a difference between a thief, a colonizer and between an innocent civlian
I repeat, the Palestinian are doing the same thing done by the native before against european colonizers. ALL people under colonization, from Algeria to Congo, to Angola, to South Africa targeted BOTH armed AND non-armed colonizers. why? were they wrong?? NOO, coz they were targeting colonizers not innocent civlians. I repeat, The UNARMED, NON-COMBATANT colonizers who colonized South Africa, Indonesia, Australia, Algeria, Congo, New Zealand, Angola etc. were targeted by the Native resistance.

"it is just as wrong to destroy Israel as it is to attack the Palestinians."

hmmm...I wonder, would you be the kind of "socialist" person that would say "it&#39;s just as wrong to destory Aprtheid South Africa as it to attack South AFricans"
or "it is just as wrong to destroy the French colony in Algeria as it is to attack the Algerians."???

You have got to get it. Zionism is a 19th century traditional colonial ideaology. Zionism is agaisnt majority rule: zionism is racism.
"Israel" is a settler colony estblished on stolen Palestinian lands.
the Palestinain resistance is the same as any native resistance against colonizers through out history.

if you are pro-zionism, then you are pro-imperialism, pro-Aprtheid, pro-racism.

[Revolution Until Victory]

Mr."Socialist", I&#39;m afraid there is no way out of it. You either suppor zionism and its settler-colony along with European colonzation of Congo, Algeria, Angola, South Afria and Asia and Afica, or your against zionism and its settler colony and all other European colonizations in Asia and Africa. You can&#39;t have it both way.
previous European colonization and Zionism are the same; both ara unjust; both ara Aprtheid and racist; both are illegitamit built on stolen lands.
I&#39;ve provided the example of South Africa before. I repeat, you are demanding the same thing the European colonizers forced the South Africans to accept: less than 20% of their original homeland, in other words, bantustans. Could you say, "well its not clear; the European colonizers had lived for a long time in Africa and the South AFricans should live together"
you see, the South African refused the Bantustans which you are asking the Palestinains to accept. Like the Palestinains, the South AFrican launched a guerilla warfare (targeting army as well as non-armed colonizers; simply coz they were colonizers not innocent) and got their rights. You couldn&#39;t have said to the South Afrians "you have to exist together. you, the natives, got to accept the Bantustants, and the Euro. colonizers will take the rest"
there could be NO coexistance between opresser and opressed; colonzied and colonizer; dominator and dominated. In order for there to be coexistance between jew and arab in Palestine, the jews got to shed away their colonial and imperial identity and live among the Palestinains as equals not as dominators; exactly like South Africa. the jewish people will not be able to shed this imperial identity unless the zionist Aptheid settler-colony is dismantled. That is minimum justice.

btw, to help you be more "clear" about who got the rigth to the land, here is the following evidence. Ben Gurion himself, admited Palestine belonged to the Palestinains people (what, you want to defend the righ-wing colonizers more than they do themselves, of course, while claiming to be a "socialist" forver? :rolleyes:)

In a UNCCP document dated July 4, 1947, oral evidence were presented at a public meeting were Ben-Gurion was present. Ben-Gurion was discussing the "disparities between Jews and Arabs" in Palestine. He stated: "I shall mention only a few [referring to the disparities between Arabs and Jews]. There is the disparity in numbers. There are some 600,000 Jews in Palestine and some 1,100,000 Arabs. There are no reliable figures in this respect. There is an even greater disparity than that. The Arabs own 94% of the land, the Jews only 6%. The Arabs have seven States..."

here is the UNCCP document found on line to check for yourself and be "more clear":

http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/0/7735b7...71?OpenDocument (http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/0/7735b7dc144807b985256e8b006f4a71?OpenDocument)

[Vicarious]

"Why are people on the left anti-Israel"

Cause the great imperialist (as the people of the US are known in North Korea) backed them.

[forever socialist]

Perhaps I am being too idealistic in the matter. I agree that the Palestinian populace needs to be respected more. They should have more land and what Israel is doing to them is oppressive. In no way do I think aparthied, or European colonialism in Africa was right. It was downright wrong. In Israel though, Im just trying to see both sides of the argument. To me, the majority of the Israeli people just desire to live in peace, but yes, the Palestian populace are the majority and they need more land. I amend my view. If I came across as supporting right wingers and facist zionists, it was out of ignorance not sincerity. The situation should be reverssed, it should be a Palestian state, but the Israeli people still need rights as the Palestians do. I think these people should live as equals, and I see now that this is currently not the case.
For the reccord I adrmire Nelson Mandela enoumously.

[KC]

The jewish and Palestinian races have both lived in the area for thousands of years so there is no clear way of ascertaining who has greater rights to the land.

Palestinian isn&#39;t a race. Palestinian is a name for the people living in the area of Palestine and who have lived on the land which Israel now occupies and who were displaced from it with the creation of the Israeli state.

[sexyguy]

=forever socialist,May 02, 2007 12:33 pm] I amend my view. If I came across as supporting right wingers and facist zionists, it was out of ignorance not sincerity. The situation should be reverssed, it should be a Palestian state, but the Israeli people still need rights as the Palestians do. I think these people should live as equals, and I see now that this is currently not the case.

Yes, the settlers “should” accept rule by the Palestinians or leave, but do you think the Zionists are going to budge-over and let that happen without a fight to the death? ...

In which case, DEFEAT and death to the Zionist state&#33;

[graffic]

I want peace in the middle east-

you people on the other hand want the entire nation of Israel destroyed, (like the religous nutter who controls Iran).

Thats the simple fact.

[Pirate Utopian]

Your idea of peace is allowing some country standing on stole land to exist.

And Adhemdinjad (or however you write it) is a nutter yes but that doesnt mean he is wrong on that.
Bill O&#39;Reilly claims he&#39;s critical of the Iraqwar does that mean you&#39;ll support it now?

[Vendetta]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 02:05 pm
I want peace in the middle east-

you people on the other hand want the entire nation of Israel destroyed, (like the religous nutter who controls Iran).

Thats the simple fact.
As long as Israel exists, and the nations of the Middle East do not separate religion from politics, there will be no peace in the Middle East.

[graffic]

Stolen land?

Yeah thinking about it throwing a whole country with generations of civilised people in it off the map is an excellent idea

Why not give the Islamists weapons aswell while were at it. Fuck the Jews, they can be shipped somewhere else, the rogue terroists can have the narrow strip of land back

[graffic]

Israel isn&#39;t going away anytime soon - you and the "palestinians" need to realise it before Israel really gets angry.

[Pirate Utopian]

Rar face the wrath of Israel&#33;, lol.

If they were so civilised they wouldnt kick all the Palestines out of their home because "God gave them that land."

[graffic]

Oh right

But you have no problem with Sharia Law? where homosexuals are hanged and women are oppressed and expected to cover up and submit to men at all times.

God gave them the land? Thats what Muslims think aswell you know, that is why the Palestinians want Israel destroyed.

[graffic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 10:38 pm
"Why are people on the left anti-Israel"

Cause the great imperialist (as the people of the US are known in North Korea) backed them.
If this isnt scarcasm then it proves my point.

[Pirate Utopian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 02:44 pm
Oh right

But you have no problem with Sharia Law? where homosexuals are hanged and women are oppressed and expected to cover up and submit to men at all times.

God gave them the land? Thats what Muslims think aswell you know, that is why the Palestinians want Israel destroyed.
I think Palestines want their land back because it was taken away from them.

I obviously dont support the Sharia, but I dont support colonialism either, the enemy of my enemy is not my friend.
I support the self-determination for the Palestines.

[graffic]

Jews and Arabs have lived in the Middle east for thousands of years. It is not the Palestinians land.

The self - determination of the palestinian people who live under sharia law, who (the vast majority are Muslims) believe Jeruslaem is their holy city and Islam will eventually be the world religion.

[Pirate Utopian]

You seem to think all Palestines have are bad plans, yet as you just said they once lived side by side with the Israeli&#39;s before Israel&#39;s existance.

Also why do you support Israel?, and critism against Palestina isnt support for Israel in this case, why should it have the right to exist?

[graffic]

Originally posted by Big [email protected] 06, 2007 02:50 pm
You seem to think all Palestines have are bad plans
Not all palestinians have bad plans. However the people in power are religious nutters who believe in a holy war, they want Israel destroyed because their religion teaches them to hate the Jews (and Christians). It doesnt take a Historian to know that the Jewish people have been oppressed for many years, the devastating rise of Hitlers holocaust in Europe caused many Jews to flee for safety (Palestine), tragically many Jews were captured by British authorities and sent back to the death camps. The International authorites offered the Jews a homeland which they had wanted for centuries, however the Jews only got 1/5th of the original promised land becuase of Arab protest.

Various people on the left will try and defend Islamic terroists but the truth is black and white.

If Israel did not exist and "Palestine" did we&#39;d be left with another reactionary backwards country where homosexuals are hanged and women are horribly oppressed and expected to cover up and submit to men at all times. fuck that. that doesn&#39;t help anyone.

I feel compelled to support the country where rights are recognised rather than yet another muslim country where basic human rights would be trampled under sharia law. Israel isn&#39;t going away anytime soon and these morons need to realise that.

[Pirate Utopian]

Yes but Hitler and the British were hardly muslims.
Besides the Torah says that Jews cannot have their own state, if religion is involved you should consider Jewish religion too.

Besides the promises of lands have been not with the approval of those in these lands, their religion shouldnt matter, why should they be kicked out?

That&#39;s my biggest problem with Israel, why did the Palestines have to be kicked out?

[sexyguy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 03:04 pm


If Israel did not exist and "Palestine" did we&#39;d be left with another reactionary backwards country where homosexuals are hanged and women are horribly oppressed and expected to cover up and submit to men at all times. fuck that. that doesn&#39;t help anyone.

I feel compelled to support the country where rights are recognised rather than yet another muslim country where basic human rights would be trampled under sharia law. Israel isn&#39;t going away anytime soon and these morons need to realise that.
According to this ‘logic’ the writer would like to see little ‘Israels’ scattered all over the world&#33; Dream on.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

@ graffic

I have no idea why the Admin is still tolerating an idiotic racist such as you on this forum, but oh well...



Not all palestinians have bad plans. However the people in power are religious nutters who believe in a holy war, they want Israel destroyed because their religion teaches them to hate the Jews (and Christians).

Oh stop bullshitting already.

For DECADES, the Palestinians were led by the Palestinian Liberation Organization, which was a secular, progressive organization.

The PFLP, which was a part of the PLO, was a militant Marxist-Leninist tendency.

You are bullshitting, because you know JACK about what you&#39;re talking about.



It doesnt take a Historian to know that the Jewish people have been oppressed for many years, the devastating rise of Hitlers holocaust in Europe caused many Jews to flee for safety (Palestine), tragically many Jews were captured by British authorities and sent back to the death camps. The International authorites offered the Jews a homeland which they had wanted for centuries, however the Jews only got 1/5th of the original promised land becuase of Arab protest.

What nonsense.

I&#39;ve asked before, and I&#39;ll ask again:

Does this mean that anyone can march into any land and claim it as their own?

The Jews migrating to Palestine is one thing. The Jewish Zionist leaders claiming that land as being solely for the Jews is something totally different. It&#39;s called Apartheid.



Various people on the left will try and defend Islamic terroists but the truth is black and white.

You&#39;re such a racist prick. We&#39;re only defending the Palestinian people, who are NOT "terrorists" or whatever you think they are.



If Israel did not exist and "Palestine" did we&#39;d be left with another reactionary backwards country where homosexuals are hanged and women are horribly oppressed and expected to cover up and submit to men at all times. fuck that. that doesn&#39;t help anyone.

For one, you&#39;re totally WRONG. The Palestinian people are not like that at all, you know SHIT about them. You probably never came across a real Muslim in your whole life.

For another, if we accepted for a moment that the Palestinians would indeed set up a "reactionary backwards country" if they got their land back from the Zionist bastards whom you support:

Your argument is the same as the one colonialists used in the 19th century. You want to justify Zionist apartheid and colonialism by pretending to be a social progressive.



I feel compelled to support the country where rights are recognised rather than yet another muslim country where basic human rights would be trampled under sharia law. Israel isn&#39;t going away anytime soon and these morons need to realise that.

I feel compelled to point out that your moronic assertions know no bounds.

You know NOTHING about the Arabs, about Muslims in general or about the revolutionary Left.

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

Originally posted by Sir Aunty [email protected] 07, 2007 04:22 pm

I don&#39;t see the Scots or Welsh being treated as second class citizens, do you?
Yes, we (welsh) dont have the same power as the English - only an assembley despite being in my opinion a different country. Our language has been oppressed. They tried to kill it by placing the "welsh not" around the necks of children who spoke Welsh and whipped whoever had it at the end of the day&#33; But only because we fought it, we have passed a law to protect it. I think we should have compulsory billingual schools as it helps improve a childs abilities generally (apparentley&#33;)

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

What about Isreals war crimes???
Breaking the Geneva convention by stoping ambulances at check points
The fact its an apartheid state?
The weopns stock
ethnic cleansing
Illegal war on Arab states
illegal occupation of lebonon and Palestine
Stealing land
allies with America
self-labeling its self a Jewish state, thus alienating a 5th of the population
illegal big-ass walls

Apart from that Isreal are great

[Invader Zim]

The jews are the only race on this planet which have no homeland.


What of the Kurds?

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by Invader Zim+May 06, 2007 10:41 pm--> (Invader Zim &#064; May 06, 2007 10:41 pm)
The jews are the only race on this planet which have no homeland.


What of the Kurds?[/b]
The List will never ending IMO.


zionist troll
However the people in power are religious nutters who believe in a holy war, they want Israel destroyed because their religion teaches them to hate the Jews (and Christians).

Why suddenly you have added Christians to the list ? Oh if you have missed to add Buddhism,Hindusim,Jainism,Sikhism. <_<

And why the fuck you still don&#39;t answer Zampano&#39;s post ?

[graffic]

What nonsense.

I&#39;ve asked before, and I&#39;ll ask again:

Does this mean that anyone can march into any land and claim it as their own?

The Jews migrating to Palestine is one thing. The Jewish Zionist leaders claiming that land as being solely for the Jews is something totally different. It&#39;s called Apartheid.

Nonsense? Which part of my text is nonsense?

The Jews have a right to live in the middle east.


You&#39;re such a racist prick. We&#39;re only defending the Palestinian people, who are NOT "terrorists" or whatever you think they are.

How is that racist? I&#39;m not talking about palestinians, I&#39;m talking about terroists. You are constantly playing down terroist attacks and claiming Hamas and related Islamic terror organistations are justified.


For one, you&#39;re totally WRONG. The Palestinian people are not like that at all, you know SHIT about them. You probably never came across a real Muslim in your whole life.

For another, if we accepted for a moment that the Palestinians would indeed set up a "reactionary backwards country" if they got their land back from the Zionist bastards whom you support:

Your argument is the same as the one colonialists used in the 19th century. You want to justify Zionist apartheid and colonialism by pretending to be a social progressive.

I know many muslims, and they are all very nice people. Whats your point exactly? Do you want Israel to be destroyed?