How to defeat fascism?

[Tower of Bebel]

How do anarchists want to defeat fascism?

[Morpheus]

Ideally, through revolution. You can't have fascism if there is no state.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

Fascism in the old-fashioned Mussolini and Hitler sense practically defeats itself if it gets a chance to speak too much. But when it's disguised as stern nationalism (in a scenario like Singapore) that is when it's worrisome. I suppose more than anything it needs to be exposed as a tool for inequality and brutality.

[Tower of Bebel]

But right now, how do anarchist want to effectifly counter fascism?

Here in Belgium, Flanders, we have a very big right wing, fascist party that still gains support from many common people, even though many of them consider themselves 'socialists' (soc-democrats).
I know which theories Trotskyists tend to follow (as I'm a member of the Belgian branch of the CWI since the beginning of this year). They're now trying to create a new worker's party because the old socialist parties are fucked up (almost neo-liberal). I've learned that you must give the people good alternatives, as fascist tend to get support from people who're dissatisfied with current events (like Hitler and the NSDAP).

I came up with this question because the more fascist organizations in Holland and Belgium grow, the more I get to hear from antifa and such. And I'm just not satisfied with some of their answers on the subject of growing fascism.

[Schleppy]

I like the (comic) V for Vendetta method - show cracks in the system, prove that it's not as strong as everyone thinks, and give people a small display of just how much they are really opressed and exploited by the system before just leaving it up to the people to be pissed off when the state tries to take back its power, all the while giving the occaisional explanation of your message through hijacking of propaganda mechanisms.

Not sure how feasible it would be in reality, but it doesn't seem impossible.

[Enragé]

hmm yes
the antifa stance, from what i know of it, in the netherlands certainly is worrying, i dont know if its the same in Belgium.

Basicly they hope for the government to bann fascist meetings, or go protest and shout insults, which is all good and well, but what they should be doing is focussing more on propaganda, building a movement, undermining the base of sympathizers of the fascists (or those coming close) by convincing them its a load of shit.

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 03:09 pm
How do anarchists want to defeat fascism?
By increasing class consciousness among the working class so as to serve as a counter to the fascists power and to take away their main base. At the same time, it is vital to physically confront fascists so as to make them unsure about espousing their politics in public. It is also important to set up community watch groups to empower people so they feel as if they can actually do something about their situation and that the police are not the only people to call when trouble erupts. Another important thing --- though a difficult one --- to countering fascists' power is to unite the groups that they persecute, e.g. the Jewish community, Arab community, LGBT community, etc.

[Lenin II]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 11:05 pm
I like the (comic) V for Vendetta method - show cracks in the system, prove that it's not as strong as everyone thinks, and give people a small display of just how much they are really opressed and exploited by the system before just leaving it up to the people to be pissed off when the state tries to take back its power, all the while giving the occaisional explanation of your message through hijacking of propaganda mechanisms.

Not sure how feasible it would be in reality, but it doesn't seem impossible.
Propaganda mechanisms? I'm all for hijacking Rush Limbaugh's show and speaking. He gets 22 million listeners a day.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

You know, if you could call in appearing to be perfectly ordinary you might be able to get some airtime.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 09:09 pm
How do anarchists want to defeat fascism?
Morpheus is right, but in the meantime it is important to challenge their platform of speech. If they aren't able to spread their message then they can't organise effectively.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

I honestly doubt that the fringeists on street corners will have positions in the new government if fascism takes over. Rather we need to fear the more conservative elements of the mainstream government who could get pushed just a little too far.

[Tower of Bebel]

Originally posted by The Anarchist Tension+April 07, 2007 07:21 am--> (The Anarchist Tension @ April 07, 2007 07:21 am)
[email protected] 06, 2007 09:09 pm
How do anarchists want to defeat fascism?
Morpheus is right, but in the meantime it is important to challenge their platform of speech. If they aren't able to spread their message then they can't organise effectively. [/b]
So that means obstruction and maybe violence?

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Raccoon+April 07, 2007 01:42 am--> (Raccoon @ April 07, 2007 01:42 am)
Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 07, 2007 07:21 am

[email protected] 06, 2007 09:09 pm
How do anarchists want to defeat fascism?
Morpheus is right, but in the meantime it is important to challenge their platform of speech. If they aren't able to spread their message then they can't organise effectively.
So that means obstruction and maybe violence? [/b]
Absolutely.

[Tower of Bebel]

Well, one problems is that, here in Flanders, a right wing, extremist, fascist party received 30% of all the votes during the elections.
Although everyone 'knows' its leaders are fascists (they succeeded neo-nazi's who've founed the party some 20 years ago) many, many people vote for it because all the other parties are in many ways the same: neoliberal in some degree. The fascists ofcourse are worse, but They try to create an image of a party that supports (traditional) families (so no guy mariages or unmarried mothers, etc.), traditions (Flemish traditions), religion (catholicism), etc.
So the only well known party that is not represented in parliament (because the other parties installed a 'cordon sanitair' (quarantine?) to prevent it from ruling with the majority) gets support from voters that are dissatisfied with current events.

What to do?

[RNK]

That is essentially how the right-wing operates -- in a 'troubled' world rampant with ineffectual liberal politicians they paint themselves as being a 'return to more traditional, safer times'. They essentially take the legitimate ill-feelings of the masses, twist it, and through a very extensive and unyielding PR campaign, transform revolutionary notions into reactionary notions.

I hate to say it, but when it comes to parliamentarism, the fascists have us stumped. In the long run, there are only two things that can destroy fascism; either we do it, by getting off our asses, or they win, institute a short period of incredibly harsh rule, and are then destroyed in what is usually a very blood war or internal uprising.

[Tower of Bebel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 11:29 am
That is essentially how the right-wing operates -- in a 'troubled' world rampant with ineffectual liberal politicians they paint themselves as being a 'return to more traditional, safer times'. They essentially take the legitimate ill-feelings of the masses, twist it, and through a very extensive and unyielding PR campaign, transform revolutionary notions into reactionary notions.

I hate to say it, but when it comes to parliamentarism, the fascists have us stumped. In the long run, there are only two things that can destroy fascism; either we do it, by getting off our asses, or they win, institute a short period of incredibly harsh rule, and are then destroyed in what is usually a very blood war or internal uprising.
and getting off our asses also means obstruction and violence?

[Enragé]

yes, i think thats clear by now :P

[Lenin II]

Originally posted by Raccoon+April 07, 2007 11:50 am--> (Raccoon @ April 07, 2007 11:50 am)
[email protected] 07, 2007 11:29 am
That is essentially how the right-wing operates -- in a 'troubled' world rampant with ineffectual liberal politicians they paint themselves as being a 'return to more traditional, safer times'. They essentially take the legitimate ill-feelings of the masses, twist it, and through a very extensive and unyielding PR campaign, transform revolutionary notions into reactionary notions.

I hate to say it, but when it comes to parliamentarism, the fascists have us stumped. In the long run, there are only two things that can destroy fascism; either we do it, by getting off our asses, or they win, institute a short period of incredibly harsh rule, and are then destroyed in what is usually a very blood war or internal uprising.
and getting off our asses also means obstruction and violence? [/b]
Absolutely.

[rebelworker]

Originally posted by Fawkes+April 07, 2007 03:30 am--> (Fawkes @ April 07, 2007 03:30 am)
[email protected] 06, 2007 03:09 pm
How do anarchists want to defeat fascism?
By increasing class consciousness among the working class so as to serve as a counter to the fascists power and to take away their main base. At the same time, it is vital to physically confront fascists so as to make them unsure about espousing their politics in public. It is also important to set up community watch groups to empower people so they feel as if they can actually do something about their situation and that the police are not the only people to call when trouble erupts. Another important thing --- though a difficult one --- to countering fascists' power is to unite the groups that they persecute, e.g. the Jewish community, Arab community, LGBT community, etc. [/b]
This is well put,

revolutionary anti facism seeks to organise the working class to confront the real cause of their opression andalienation. When people are fighting bosses and politicians they are less likely to scapegoat immigrants ect for the real systemic problems that exist.

Liberal anti facism seeks to "beat them in elections" or have to state bn their meetings, this dose nothing to eliminate the conditions that make facism attractive to so many people.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 08:22 pm
Ideally, through revolution. You can't have fascism if there is no state.
what!? are you saying the fascists will just disapear once there is a revolution? Are you saying that people will just be able to kill fascists at will because there are not state reprocussions? Or what?

The only way we'll eliminate fascism is by using the dictatorship of the proletariat to supress fascists.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 06:33 pm
The only way we'll eliminate fascism is by using the dictatorship of the proletariat to supress fascists.
Why wait?!

http://www.stlconfluence.org/images_up/120s.jpg

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Before the working class can try to defeat fascism in any way, it is first necessary to unite the working class around a revolutionary socialist platform.

As Trotsky observed long ago, fascism succeeds if and only if people are convinced that their only options are either the status quo or fascism, in a situation where the status quo is pretty bad.

So, in the early stages of anti-fascist struggle, it is absolutely imperative to (a) have a strong revolutionary party or organization of some kind that is capable of following a coherent course of action, and (b) create and distribute propaganda meant to convince people that there is a realistic revolutionary socialist solution to their problems.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

what!? are you saying the fascists will just disapear once there is a revolution? Are you saying that people will just be able to kill fascists at will because there are not state reprocussions? Or what?

Well they won't really have any support anymore if it's a revolution of human beings and not sheep.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by Fawkes+April 07, 2007 03:30 am--> (Fawkes @ April 07, 2007 03:30 am)
[email protected] 06, 2007 03:09 pm
How do anarchists want to defeat fascism?
By increasing class consciousness among the working class so as to serve as a counter to the fascists power and to take away their main base. At the same time, it is vital to physically confront fascists so as to make them unsure about espousing their politics in public. It is also important to set up community watch groups to empower people so they feel as if they can actually do something about their situation and that the police are not the only people to call when trouble erupts. Another important thing --- though a difficult one --- to countering fascists' power is to unite the groups that they persecute, e.g. the Jewish community, Arab community, LGBT community, etc. [/b]
I agree with this as a tactic to use present day but post-revolution I don't see it as being as effective if there is no state. Fascists can easily ride on racist and ultra-nationalist sentiments to gain power if there is not a force which is actively oppressing them until they disapear.



Well they won't really have any support anymore if it's a revolution of human beings and not sheep.

revolutions are never made by sheep.


Why wait?!

for some reason i thought the question was post-revolution

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Not to be spammy but another tactic is to strengthen Nazi Watch Groups like the one being linked to (http://www.naziwatch.blogspot.com/)