Gratuities

[pusher robot]

I was describing to my roommate last night these debates that I've been involved in on this board. He is rather politically ignorant, so he asked me some basic questions about the positions of my opponents. I described communal ownership, possible governments, and the abolishment of money. Out of nowhere he asked a question that never had occurred to me:

"Without money, how do you tip the strippers?"

I had no answer to this question. It may seem silly at first, but as I thought about it, gratuities are very common and important in many everyday transactions. A personal gratuity, separate from ordinary compensation, creates incentive for service providers to go "above and beyond" what is absolutely necessary to get the job done, and also provides a way for customers to show their appreciation for good service, or punish poor service.

Does anybody have an idea of how gratuties would be possible without money? Or is the very thought of rewarding excellent service and punishing poor service a counter-revolutionary concept? Under communism, how do you tip the strippers?

EDIT:
Please don't tell me this job will be done by robots.

[Idola Mentis]

Cultural thing, I guess. In scandinavia, for example, there are poor jobs, but no really underpaid jobs, as long as you stay legal. You are expected to want the best service without ever giving a tip. People are expected to do the job they are paid to do. Poor service is handled by complaints, not bribes.

Foreigners often report that service workers in the nordic countries are "rude". Turns out the majority of these complaints come from people expecting their service to be, well, servile - not answer back, not look exasperated at plain idiocy, go out of their way not to contradict - I once heard it described as the "yes massa" routine. I suspect the routine is a result of dependency on incentives and tips. Try being servile (or act superior) to a scandinavian who hasn't been abroad a lot, and chances are you'll embarrass or even disgust them. We simply aren't used to it.

That doesn't mean people never tip as a reward, but the power to punish has been taken away. Bosses who doesn't know better than to hand over their authority to customers are plain fools. Letting any random twerp who walks in the door with money mess their employees around? Not going to promote a good work environment.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Under communism, how do you tip the strippers?

Firstly, under communism, in the grand end of history communism, as in when the complete victory of the working class has been achieved in the distant future.

the premise of your question is a capitalistic one, that holds onto the ideology of capitalism. A job is something you do in return for material compensation.

Under communism, this is not so. Marx's famous maxim of "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"

is the guiding principle of communism.

so the stripper would be stripping because it makes them happy, they would already receive what they desire.

unlike now, there wouldn't be sloppy performances, just good ones.

that is of course if stripping was desired in communism, which i don't imagine it would be.

[colonelguppy]

so in communism, people decide what they do to contribute to society based on what makes them happy?


that is of course if stripping was desired in communism, which i don't imagine it would be.

lol

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 05:10 pm

Under communism, how do you tip the strippers?

Firstly, under communism, in the grand end of history communism, as in when the complete victory of the working class has been achieved in the distant future.

the premise of your question is a capitalistic one, that holds onto the ideology of capitalism. A job is something you do in return for material compensation.

Under communism, this is not so. Marx's famous maxim of "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"

is the guiding principle of communism.

so the stripper would be stripping because it makes them happy, they would already receive what they desire.

unlike now, there wouldn't be sloppy performances, just good ones.

that is of course if stripping was desired in communism, which i don't imagine it would be.

that is of course if stripping was desired in communism, which i don't imagine it would be.

Not desired by who? The producers or the consumers?

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

i was talking in terms of it being a profession.

I'm sure no one would be against stripping in a communist society, but in terms of it being an occupation, I'm inclined to think its not likely.

I think if it was done, it would be more regular people stripping rather than a professional stripper.

because, it wont be their only option in a communist society and they will be free to do it for other reasons.


Not desired by who? The producers or the consumers?

Sex will be much less likely to be bought and sold in a communist society, because unlike capitalism there wont be class divisions and all the problems that causes.

You guys will actually have to have charisma, humour and nice bodies if you want to see even a remotely attractive woman naked, you wont just be able to buy her.

maybe you prefer it the way it is. are you all that ugly? :P

[colonelguppy]

well sometimes guys don't want to go through the effort and burdens of entering some kind of relationship with the girls just to get some nakedness, and would rather go to a place with some friends and smoke some cigars and have a drink.

i think it's a waste of money personally, but i can understand why people go.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by Idola [email protected] 06, 2007 03:42 pm
Bosses who doesn't know better than to hand over their authority to customers are plain fools. Letting any random twerp who walks in the door with money mess their employees around? Not going to promote a good work environment.
Uh, if the customer does not like your business, you won't have any business.

[Idola Mentis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 11:13 pm
Uh, if the customer does not like your business, you won't have any business.
Try saying that and pinch a waitress' arse sometime.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Frankly, tips are a form of corruption. They encourage the people who receive them to give preferential treatment to those who give the largest tips. And, as has been pointed out before, tips also encourage servile behavior.

So there will be no tips under communism.

[colonelguppy]

you mean those who pay more get more in return? the horror!

[Ol' Dirty]

Originally posted by pusher [email protected] 06, 2007 10:15 am








I was describing to my roommate last night these debates that I've been involved in on this board. He is rather politically ignorant, so he asked me some basic questions about the positions of my opponents.

Coo'.


I described communal ownership, possible governments, and the abolishment of money.

k


Out of nowhere he asked a question that never had occurred to me:

"Without money, how do you tip the strippers?"

Good question for him to ask. Purty insightful.

In the context of what he's saying, i guess that money would be a good way to tip, and I suppose that wouldn't harm too many people. Of course, you could also do other things, like give the person food. But of course, the person could buy themselves food later? Yeah. But if you directly gave that person what they wanted, they'd be happy that you'd cut out the middle man of green for them.

I'm more worried in major class relations than smaller interpersonal relationships.

There was, of course, a guy named Shylok in the the Shakesperian play The Merchant of Venice that wanted a pound of the protagonists flesh rather than currency.


I had no answer to this question. It may seem silly at first, but as I thought about it, gratuities are very common and important in many everyday transactions.

I do agree that this was a good question.


A personal gratuity, separate from ordinary compensation, creates incentive for service providers to go "above and beyond" what is absolutely necessary to get the job done, and also provides a way for customers to show their appreciation for good service, or punish poor service.

Right. It's the personal-corporal gratuities that worry me.


Does anybody have an idea of how gratuties would be possible without money?

You could give em' stuff, but I said that before. Without money, things would certainly be harder.


Under communism, how do you tip the strippers?

It depends on the group, I suppose.


EDIT:
Please don't tell me this job will be done by robots.

Done and done. :)

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 09:55 am
you mean those who pay more get more in return? the horror!
I mean those who pay more without the knowledge of others get more in return also without the knowledge of others.

Tips mess up the accuracy of the information available to buyers and sellers, which in turn leads to a bad allocation of resources. That is what every kind of corruption does. Get your economics straight.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by Edric [email protected] 07, 2007 02:45 am
Frankly, tips are a form of corruption. They encourage the people who receive them to give preferential treatment to those who give the largest tips. And, as has been pointed out before, tips also encourage servile behavior.

So there will be no tips under communism.
So a waitress who gives crappy service will get the same rewards as a waitress who gives great service?

Or are there going to be waitress robots who all give the same service?

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by Edric [email protected] 08, 2007 12:02 am

Tips mess up the accuracy of the information available to buyers and sellers, which in turn leads to a bad allocation of resources. That is what every kind of corruption does. Get your economics straight.
Not really.

The buyer is in complete control, as they know how much they'll tip if they get the service they expect. If they don't get the service they expect, they'll tip less.

The seller, i.e. a waitress, is not in control of every transaction but is in control int the aggregate. If he/she gives good service, he/she will get more tips over time, which is an objective near-certainty.

How would the situation be any better in communism, out of curiosity?

[luxemburg89]

The seller, i.e. a waitress

Is the waitress the seller? or merely part of the transaction - the waitress sells nothing but the goods of her boss, the boss is the seller - the waitress merely a delivery girl.

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 02:57 am

The seller, i.e. a waitress

Is the waitress the seller? or merely part of the transaction - the waitress sells nothing but the goods of her boss, the boss is the seller - the waitress merely a delivery girl.
I would say that the restaurant itself sells the food, but the waitress sells her service - bringing the food quickly and attending to any additional needs or desires of the patrons with speed and courtesy. And it's mainly during that second part, after the restaurant's product has already been received, that the waitstaff earns their gratuities.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 02:57 am

The seller, i.e. a waitress

Is the waitress the seller? or merely part of the transaction - the waitress sells nothing but the goods of her boss, the boss is the seller - the waitress merely a delivery girl.
Not entirely true, the waitress sells a service. It's up to her or him to provide good or bad service.

[Dr Mindbender]

Please don't tell me this job will be done by robots.

Why not (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSTpNpDz53Q)?

[534634634265]

Why not (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSTpNpDz53Q)?
because we arent fools,
and we know robots arent going to solve all of our problems while also tipping the strippers and blowing me under the table for coke.

i think you could try tipping the stripper by saying nice things about her, or being encouraging about the quality of her stripping. when that doesnt work maybe try barter?
man:i'll give you this gram of smack if you dance naked for me and my friends.
stripper:...ok

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

because we arent fools,
and we know robots arent going to solve all of our problems while also tipping the strippers and blowing me under the table for coke.

i think you could try tipping the stripper by saying nice things about her, or being encouraging about the quality of her stripping. when that doesnt work maybe try barter?
man:i'll give you this gram of smack if you dance naked for me and my friends.
stripper:...ok


eh....Do you not see the problem in this situation? Strippers are usually working class women, often women of color who are forced to strip to pay the bills. They don't appreciate being treated like objects, least not the ones I've known through sex worker unions. This whole thread has seemingly ignored that for many strippers, stripping fucking sucks.

[Plagueround]

I wasn't aware all servers at restaurants are female by default...or strippers for that matter.:rolleyes:

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

I wasn't aware all servers at restaurants are female by default...or strippers for that matter.:rolleyes:

The thread is specifically about tipping strippers, I was addressing that. Most strippers are women, never said they were exclusively female, note the "usually" qualifier.

[534634634265]

eh....Do you not see the problem in this situation? Strippers are usually working class women, often women of color who are forced to strip to pay the bills. They don't appreciate being treated like objects, least not the ones I've known through sex worker unions. This whole thread has seemingly ignored that for many strippers, stripping fucking sucks.

i cannot believe you would generalize about strippers as most often women of color, show me your facts on this. i would say your experience with strippers only consists of the titty bar down the street. also, strippers wouldnt strip if they weren't making good money, they'd work at McDonalds. they don't call it "ho-dough" for nothing.;)

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

i cannot believe you would generalize about strippers as most often women of color, show me your facts on this. i would say your experience with strippers only consists of the titty bar down the street. also, strippers wouldnt strip if they weren't making good money, they'd work at McDonalds. they don't call it "ho-dough" for nothing.;)

I don't go to strip joints, my only experience is through working with sex worker unions. And while there is a significant minority of male strippers, and there are plenty of white strippers, there is more often than not a predominance of people of color. Yes they are making decent money, certainly better than your typical minimum wage job, but its not that sweet of a gig as you think. Otherwise they wouldn't be forming unions.

[534634634265]

I don't go to strip joints, my only experience is through working with sex worker unions. And while there is a significant minority of male strippers, and there are plenty of white strippers, there is more often than not a predominance of people of color. Yes they are making decent money, certainly better than your typical minimum wage job, but its not that sweet of a gig as you think. Otherwise they wouldn't be forming unions.
is the boldface a careful way of saying you go to strip bars?:D

also, unionization has little to do with the quality of work these days. Unions in america now do little more than bicker and quibble over details. union workers are payed an almost exorbitantly high wage, making it unfeasible for americans to buy american goods. we then have to import cheaper, more shoddily made goods from other countries. i look at unions in america as little more than an extension of the wage-slavery system, tolerated because they appease the working man without bringing any real change.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

is the boldface a careful way of saying you go to strip bars?:D

also, unionization has little to do with the quality of work these days. Unions in america now do little more than bicker and quibble over details. union workers are payed an almost exorbitantly high wage, making it unfeasible for americans to buy american goods. we then have to import cheaper, more shoddily made goods from other countries. i look at unions in america as little more than an extension of the wage-slavery system, tolerated because they appease the working man without bringing any real change.

Nope, I don't do that much work with em, so I've never been to one.

Unions usually sell out thier workers and act as a mediation for struggle. That's why we need unions run by the workers themselves, and that don't heel to the legal nonsense that traps unions in a loosing strategy. Union workers today don't get exorbitant raises or wages, and most outsourcing is undertaken by companies with huge profits. Its called the race to the bottom becuase its a race to see who can provide the shittiest wages and worst working conditions possible. If you'd like to work in a sweatshop, I'm sure we could bring back some of those jobs. But until then the only solution is a global effort of all workers to resist this cruel game. Otherwise capital will just play one set of workers off the other.

[534634634265]

Unions usually sell out thier workers and act as a mediation for struggle. That's why we need unions run by the workers themselves, and that don't heel to the legal nonsense that traps unions in a loosing strategy. Union workers today don't get exorbitant raises or wages, and most outsourcing is undertaken by companies with huge profits. Its called the race to the bottom becuase its a race to see who can provide the shittiest wages and worst working conditions possible. If you'd like to work in a sweatshop, I'm sure we could bring back some of those jobs. But until then the only solution is a global effort of all workers to resist this cruel game. Otherwise capital will just play one set of workers off the other.

theres the rub though, mate.:blushing:
unions aren't run by the workers themselves, they're run by union bosses who are elected. and that legal nonsense is likely what keeps us from sweatshop labor, not the unions. companies with huge profits go around unions, i'm talking about american unionized industries like the AFL-CIO types of businesses. and as far as i can tell, capitalists already play one set of workers off the other. its called immigrant labor. they've been the scapegoat of politics lately, but they do more work than most give them credit for.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

theres the rub though, mate.:blushing:
unions aren't run by the workers themselves, they're run by union bosses who are elected. and that legal nonsense is likely what keeps us from sweatshop labor, not the unions. companies with huge profits go around unions, i'm talking about american unionized industries like the AFL-CIO types of businesses. and as far as i can tell, capitalists already play one set of workers off the other. its called immigrant labor. they've been the scapegoat of politics lately, but they do more work than most give them credit for.

Yeah that's the current state of things, which I already described. We need to build up unions that are anti bureaucratic and oriented towards the class struggle. We also need to build up rank and file movements within the mainstream unions to do the same. Otherwise, things will just get worse.