Plato - The founder of Fascism?

[Iepilei]

Today, I was doing some research into Plato and probably his most famous work 'The Republic'. We watched a video concerning this Utopian society, and they made mention of how Plato's works motivated Neitszche and ultimately Hitler. But they made mention of the USSR as well - stating Marx, Lenin, Stalin, and Hitler in the same breath.

Personally I was appauled at the comparison between the writings of Plato and Communism. If you've read Brave New World by Huxley you've got a general idea of what the Republic was like. With the segrigation of classes and the destruction of personal freedoms, I don't see how anyone - who is in the least bit educated on the subject - can derive such a comparison.

Anyone agree with this statement?

[Kez]

ah, there are endless comparisons, fascism is spread on same fuckin page as communism, fuckin sickening.
*notes body temperature notches up 50 degrees*

ah well.
What can be done?

If youve read "Capitalist democracy in Britain" you'll be most enlightened as i have as to the purpose of institutions in Britain

[Mazdak]

Plato was the first to envision communism. He had some great ideas. Abolishment of family, for one thing.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Mazdak on 1:40 am on Oct. 1, 2002
Plato was the first to envision communism. He had some great ideas. Abolishment of family, for one thing.

Plato was indeed a great man? But the abolishment of family?

Fuck that what he really meant was, "Don't let fathers be fathers to their 8 year old sons so I can take them to a bath house and 'teach' them how to 'think' with their bodies"

You know how those ancient greeks were

[LeninCCCP]

Unfortunatly most greeks and romans were perverts.

[peaccenicked]

Plato is oft criticised for being the poineer of the closed society but it is a bit unfair. He wanted to censor poetry that caused dsharmony. I think he was niave. Plato's greatness was in his ability to question his surrounding in the decline of ancient Greece. He sought a utopian return to the golden age.
Plato is influential because he is systematic, he covers all the important issues. He is honest and (truthful at times). The republic is more important for its thoroughness than its ideas.
The 'copy of copies' idea that is central to Plato, I think also informs Marx's view of commodities.
He was a pioneer in political philosophy.Most of his ideas appear childish and amusing now.
''"Education is the constraining and directing of youth towards that right reason which the law affirms and which the experience of the eldest and best has agreed to be truly right." Training of children to follow law and harmony by way of play and songs. Legislator will do same, persuade or comple poet to express what is temperate brave and true. Plato advocates legistlation about arts - novelties that are introduced are a bad thing generally. Wants preventative legistlation rather than overt censorship. Compel poets to say that he who is temperate and just is fortunate and happy without regard to physical strength, size, or riches. We want to believe that bad people are miserable - poets must be forbidden from saying that there are bad men who lead pleasant lives, or that justice is separate from what is profitable and gainful. Poets should compose nothing contrary to the ideas of the lawful, or just, or beautiful, or good, which are allowed in the state. Poets should show all compositions to judges and guardians. Poets should compose prayers and eulogies of good citizens who have died - both men and women - but not of the living. Judges should be at least 50 years of age and with absolute power.''

[Iepilei]

but his created society bears no real resemblence to that of any marxist nation. Gold, silver, bronze divisions of class? With a single, all-wise leader? Predestination of career and life?

It's a little too Huxley-esqe for my tastes, and it reminds me of how American society is changing.

Now don't get me wrong, for the time the ideas were pretty extreme. But anytime you have extreme right-wing individuals worshipping the book, there's a problem there.

[peaccenicked]

The Repulic is written by an Aristocrat. His ideas are class ridden. What I am saying is that he is not that as relevant a political thinker as he is a philosopher.
His politics are pre fuedal and in the midst of slavery.
What is important is the way he approached ideas, not most of the ideas, not his politics which are irrelevant to modern thought in general.
What philosphers really still talk about is his history
of Socrates, the Socratic method, his theory of forms, his aesthetics and his literary style etc
These are his most respected contributions to the history of philosophy.

[oki]

plat lived in a time where it was normal to be ruled by evil dictators.he was actually progressive,and the fact that he wrote stuff down and humans learned from it makes him important.

[Iepilei]

well I'm not going to deny his work as a philosopher, but I still don't see how they justified the comparison.

Oh yes, rhetoric.

[honest intellectual]

Plato is a fucking evil bastard.
He rejected democracy. He supported infanticide and eugenics. He thought the state should have the power to say who people should have sex with.
I've read The Republic and it's insane. You can't exactly call it fascism, as it was written in the fourth century BC, and modern comparisons are irrelevant. i understand that Plato's ideas were more acceptable in their time, but I'm sure no one on this site would agree with the ideas in The Republic

[oki]

quite right..

[Mazdak]

infanticide isnt great, but i dont see what is wrong with state moderation.

[Revolution Hero]

Plato expressed the ideas of the abolition of the private property in his early works. It is also interesting to know, that Plato would have been able to reach the understanding of the class society and the reasons of state origin, if he have gone further in his research.

[deadpool 52]

Read some Aristotle, and realize why Aristotle never got along with Plato.
Plato's works are quite dull and I doubt how many are genuine.

[Revolution Hero]

That's right, Aristotle criticized Plato's views , and especially his theory of " ideas".
" Plato is my friend, but the truth is more valuable."

[peaccenicked]

Here is a good place to start studying Plato.
http://www.lti.shu.ac.uk/hcs/rosie/gadplat1.htm

[Iepilei]

Plato was interesting, but I agree that Aristotle's teachings were by far more accurate.

Funny that Plato's works moved west and Aristotle's east (with Alexander the Great).

[deadpool 52]

You mean stay west.

[honest intellectual]

Quote: from Mazdak on 11:43 pm on Oct. 2, 2002
infanticide isnt great, but i dont see what is wrong with state moderation.
Don't you support infanticide, Mazdak? And we're not talking about state moderation, we're talking aout complete control

[Revolution Hero]

Aristotle didn't support democracy either. He protected the slavery traditions of ancient Greece.

[Iepilei]

his project was in the sciences, not in politics or morality.

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from Iepilei on 10:49 am on Oct. 13, 2002
his project was in the sciences, not in politics or morality.

Don't you know that Aristotle also created his own idea about the ideal state?

[red warlock]

COMRADE,YOU COULDN'T BE MORE RIGHT!PLATO'S REPUBLIC IS THE APOLOGY OF A FASCIST STATE..i DON'T HAVE TIME NOW TO DISCUSS ON THIS BOOK THAT i CONSIDER NOT A SOURCE OF WISDOM BUT A BORING SOCRATIC APOLOGY OF JUSTICE...
wE SHOULD TRY TO LOOK FIRST AND CRITICIZE THE AINCIENT SOURCES AND THEN GO AND HAVE STRONG DISPUTES ON HEGEL AND HIS COTRIBUTIONS TO FASCISM..
VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!!!!
RED WARLOCK