American, Anti-American

[KC]

This semester I'm taking a class on the development of racism in the United States, and we're currently discussing the history of immigration as well as contemporary immigration policy. Basically, the US has been a "gatekeeper nation" since the Chinese Exclusion Act, which shaped immigration policy and helped form the infrastructure necessary to enforce such legislation. What's interesting about this is that while we were selling ourselves as a country of immigrants and as a "melting pot" we were in reality a gatekeeper nation, restricting the rights of immigrants of certain ethnicities/races or prohibiting them altogether. The support for these arguments was that these immigrants would come to America and "contaminate" American culture, and that they were in general anti-American.

This led me to wonder about what being American means. Obviously being American doesn't simply mean being a citizen of the United States, because then there can't be such thing as "un-American"; there would just be American and not American. I came to the conclusion that Americanism is a social construct built almost identically along the lines of how race is constructed. In this sense Americanism can be compared to whiteness, in that both are defined negatively: what is American is defined by what isn't American, and what is white is defined by what isn't white.

What is everyone's opinion on this? How do you define "American" and "un-American/Anti-american"?

[Rawthentic]

To me, being "American" has always meant being patriotic and loyal to one's nation, thats what I see when I hear people call themselves "Americans." On the other hand, I am classified as "Mexican-American", and I can't help but accept thats what I "legally" am I suppose.

I do agree that what is American is defined by what isnt American. Im not sure how much this applies, but there is the weird custom of saying that we are the beacon of "liberty and democracy", and that is defined as very American. We then see people like the Islamic extremists, Hitler, or Stalin, where they see them as obstacles to human freedom, and that is pushed out as "un-American."

Again, you have blacks, latinos, asians, etc., who define themselves as "American" and are quite proud about it and all.

Quite a tricky question my comrade, but a good one nonetheless.

[KC]

To me, being "American" has always meant being patriotic and loyal to one's nation, thats what I see when I hear people call themselves "Americans." On the other hand, I am classified as "Mexican-American", and I can't help but accept thats what I "legally" am I suppose.

Well, then what is one loyal to? What is America the nation?

[Leo]

I came to the conclusion that Americanism is a social construct built almost identically along the lines of how race is constructed.

All nations are like that.

[KC]

Yeah but I'm talking about nationalism, not nations. And I'm also talking specifically about America. I'd like to know what it means to be "anti-American".

[Rawthentic]

Since I can't speak for all, "anti-American" to me means that I am against the US government, American capitalism, and what it does in the world abroad as well as at home. When I think of the "American way of life", the first thing that pops into my head is cheat, murder, and steal.

[joser03]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 04:05 pm
Since I can't speak for all, "anti-American" to me means that I am against the US government, American capitalism, and what it does in the world abroad as well as at home. When I think of the "American way of life", the first thing that pops into my head is cheat, murder, and steal.
I am in this boat. Anti-American is being against American policies that affect not only its own people, but the world abroad. When the news media or politicians say that Iran or some other group of people (even Americans here at home) are anti-American, they try to persuade the American public that this means that they are against our way of life, being free. Obviously that is not simply true. Those who fight against the US are not fighting because Americans have the freedom to choose their own religion, wear a bikini (or nothing at all), watch sports and drink beer; they are against imperialistic policies that the US enacts, which severely hurts people around the world and only benefits the decision makers in the US. Since the beginning of this country, the founding "fathers" created policies that benefit them and them alone. So since it's formation, this country has been about keeping the rich powerful and wealthy and keeping all others weak and powerless. That is what being anti-American means; questioning and fighting the status quo. Politics to me is defined as, who holds the power. Pretty much every decision that is made in politics gives or takes power from one group to another. So if you're an American who is fed up with certain individuals having and enjoying all the power (like it has always been,) then in some sense, you are anti-American.

[KC]

Since I can't speak for all, "anti-American" to me means that I am against the US government, American capitalism, and what it does in the world abroad as well as at home. When I think of the "American way of life", the first thing that pops into my head is cheat, murder, and steal.

Well, a lot of people think you can be against the American government or the current administration or its laws or policy while still being American and patriotic.

[Janus]

Well, a lot of people think you can be against the American government or the current administration or its laws or policy while still being American and patriotic.
Right, but they still support and believe in the foundational principles and ideals that the government or at least the US itself stands for. That's what the Americanism doctrine stressed; due to the tensions during the Cold War, the US's propaganda created a polarization between itself and the USSR with the false illusion that Americanism was synonymous with freedom, justice, and democracy. Something that it continues to uphold.

[KC]

Yes, but that doesn't lay down a concrete definition of American; rather, it gives us a very vague definition based on such ambiguous words as "freedom" and "democracy".

[midnight marauder]

Since I can't speak for all, "anti-American" to me means that I am against the US government, American capitalism, and what it does in the world abroad as well as at home.

agreed, anti-American, if anything, is just another strand of demagogic code for being anti-conservativism.

liberals in the States like to reclaim it, and say that they're the ones who are truly American and truly patriotic, but they aren't the ones who tend to throw the anti-American label around.

[RGacky3]

Imagen if other countires did this, labeled things, ideas and the such as 'un-mexican' or 'anti-etheopian' or 'un-italian' it sound stupid does'nt it?

[joser03]

Originally posted by Zampanò@April 05, 2007 09:16 pm

Since I can't speak for all, "anti-American" to me means that I am against the US government, American capitalism, and what it does in the world abroad as well as at home. When I think of the "American way of life", the first thing that pops into my head is cheat, murder, and steal.

Well, a lot of people think you can be against the American government or the current administration or its laws or policy while still being American and patriotic.
The problem is that Americans are labeling themselves according to what the government says they are; that America stands for freedom, patriotism, love, respect, compassion, etc., when the reality is, that it's not true. The government, or those who pull the strings have always made decisions that only benefit them, not the people. In order to round up the troops to fight the English in the Revolutionary War, the American elite created a hysteria of nationalism in which they decreed that they must be free. Once they were "free," America stood for freedom. Were the people really free? Not exactly. The Red Coats may have left the land, but the people of the newly founded country were still shackled; the chains had not been broken. In fact, over 230 years have passed and still, the chains still remain. The people did not free themselves from tyranny. The people become cannon fodder through a system of propaganda and lies. The people did not free themselves. The war only allowed the American elite to break their chains from the King, in order to complete their self-proclaimed destiny of power and wealth. That is why America was created. So the rich could get richer and everyone else, well, they can just die. This country has yet to experience a true Revolution.

Yes, there are people who are against the government and they call themselves Americans, but they don't understand or are not aware of the history that was left out of the school textbooks. They believe that the founding fathers were great men when in reality, they owned slaves and cheated the people. They were not concerned with equality, and the only freedom they were concerned with was their own freedom and liberty to control all others. After America was "free," situations arose in which the people rebelled against the government. That is, in my opinion, the true American. An individual who does not subscribe to the elite's rules of being a good little American. Instead of calling themselves Americans and patriotic, they should be calling themselves a comrade; a revolutionary. But of course, everyone has a different agenda and political philosophy.

We are made to believe that being an American means waving your flag and supporting the government. And those who disagree with government policies say that they are true Americans. I disagree. They are anti-American and they do not even know it. Anti-American is not believing the lies and propaganda the government has been spoon-feeding the people since the beginning of the Revolutionary War. Being anti-American means confronting the government and the elite and challenging the status quo. Being anti-American means wanting equality. Being anti-American means to fight for your freedom, true freedom, not this American version of freedom and democracy. A time will come when we [Americans] will be able to shed the American label that the government has pinned on us and we, the people will create our own identity... together. That is why I refuse to honor the American flag. It is not the flag of the people, but the flag of 231 years of hate, elitism, racism, inequalities, corruption, and tyranny.

[Janus]

but that doesn't lay down a concrete definition of American; rather, it gives us a very vague definition based on such ambiguous words as "freedom" and "democracy".
Well, that's the nature of the American ideal, it is quite vague and ambiguous (as is the case with many other nationalities). The US purports to stand for these principles but realistically, its praxis seems otherwise.

[BobKKKindle$]

Because exceptionalism - the idea that America somehow exists aboveother countries and has a mandate to fulfill what is percieved as a historical destiny - plays such an important role in forming American foreign policy and shaping the way in which many Americans analyse and percieve the actions of other countries, I think an important part of being 'un-American' is putting forward the idea that America should be subject to the same legal and moral constraints as other sovereign states as this is an implicit rejection of the concept of exceptionalism.

This is especially true when America's foreign policies are characterised, as Joser suggested, as being supportive of certain intangible and often ill-defined concepts and ideas such as democracy and justice - as in the case of Iraq. Suggesting that American foreign policy is motivated by other factors such as the economic interests of the ruling class is further implying that America is not upholidng and representing these values, which could be described as un-american.

The idea that being 'un-american' or critical of one's country is an implicit suggestion that the nation is the most important unit of social organisation and that one's nationality (not just in legal terms, but also culturally and ideologicall) is the most important part of one's personal identity above other social variables such as Class and Gender. Obviously we as Socialists would not uphold this view and so would be described as un-american.

[hajduk]

TO BE AMERICAN MEANS TO BE FREE

[joser03]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 10:45 am
TO BE AMERICAN MEANS TO BE FREE
Explain yourself. it's too early (4Am my time.( I'll respond tonight.)

But America being free? HAHHAAHHAHA... far from it. America is the biggest threat to a diplomatic, democratic, free society. America does not not mean being free. We are at the mercy of a political wing that is so far to the right that even repubs are removing themselves from t. Immigrants will suppoort on the surface cauaw thbey have to. Otherwise, lick your luxaries goodbye... in the dirthole.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by joser03+July 14, 2007 10:51 am--> (joser03 @ July 14, 2007 10:51 am)
[email protected] 14, 2007 10:45 am
TO BE AMERICAN MEANS TO BE FREE
Explain yourself. it's too early (4Am my time.( I'll respond tonight.)

But America being free? HAHHAAHHAHA... far from it. America is the biggest threat to a diplomatic, democratic, free society. America does not not mean being free. We are at the mercy of a political wing that is so far to the right that even repubs are removing themselves from t. Immigrants will suppoort on the surface cauaw thbey have to. Otherwise, lick your luxaries goodbye... in the dirthole. [/b]
YOU DIDNT UNDERSTAND ME I SAY THAT MEANS AND I KNOW WERY WELL THAT IN PRACTICE IS NOT LIKE THAT

[RGacky3]

I think being American, (Or any national identity) should have nothing to do with politics rather with culture, sadly in the US they have turned cultural identity into a political statement.

[YSR]

I don't think that Americanism is intrinsicly connected to whiteness. There are plenty of nationalist bourgeois people of color. It is, like whiteness however, an artificial social construction, engineered specifically for the reason of enslaving people.

My Dakota friend and I had a long talk about this the other day and he spoke about how, for him and his traditions, connection to the land is incredibly important. I like that idea a good deal. While there's nothing implicitly wrong about being an American, but it only really matters in the context of bourgeois relations. Part of any revolutionary struggle must be a cultural struggle. Some of our comrades in the northwest already refer to the Free State of Cascadia.

I think that in the future, as part of a revolutionary strategy, we will need to start reclaiming the places and the land that we live on for ourselves on an ideological level. There's nothing wrong with America as an idea, it's just irrelevant to us. I've never visited most of the United States, despite having lived there for nearly two decades now. Why call myself an American? The problem is that we don't even have language to describe a post-revolutionary geography.

[SandyAnon]

Amerikkkans are the scum of the Earth. Revolutionaries are anti-Amerikkkan. Amerikkka will be smashed to dust.

[Labor Shall Rule]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 09:45 pm
Amerikkkans are the scum of the Earth. Revolutionaries are anti-Amerikkkan. Amerikkka will be smashed to dust.
Interesting contribution to this discussioin.

[joser03]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 09:45 pm
Amerikkkans are the scum of the Earth. Revolutionaries are anti-Amerikkkan. Amerikkka will be smashed to dust.
There is nothing wrong with being an American, it's just a matter of where one lives. One lives in America, so they're American. The problem is the culture. Once upon a time, the American ideology was revolutionary; fighting against tyranny. But now we face the same type tyrants. So being American means to have revolutionary thoughts; fighting against the status quo and fighting for equality. Being Anti-American to me means to be against equality. To follow the government like an obedient puppy; a robot. Those Americans that speak out against the injustices and corruption this administration in particular has practiced, they are the epitome of a true American revolutionary.

To say Americans are the scum of the Earth is a huge overstatement. Those who run the government are the scum of the Earth, for the American people have lost control of their country.

[Marion]

Imagen if other countires did this, labeled things, ideas and the such as 'un-mexican' or 'anti-etheopian' or 'un-italian' it sound stupid does'nt it?
They do. Perhaps they are less explicit about it in other countries but it's still there. In the UK, for instance, there are regular discussions about what "British values" are and how they should be implemented (recently either as a means of shoring up the UK state, arguing against Islamic terrorism or Brown trying to downplay his Scottish roots). The implicit suggestion is always that there are ideas or values that can be identified with one country and not, or to a lesser extent, with others.

This gets to the heart of being 'Anti-American'. Each nation-state tries to define its citizens in certain ways as a means of controlling them as they are part of a global system of capital that depends upon this control. To identify yourself as 'anti-American' is to suggest that there is something different about the way the American state acts that means it should be privileged in this way. In the worst instances it is conflated with a petty nationalism that supports any country that is seen to act against America regardless of the fact that they are equally imperialist.

[ECD Hollis]

Originally posted by joser03+July 15, 2007 10:04 pm--> (joser03 @ July 15, 2007 10:04 pm)
[email protected] 15, 2007 09:45 pm
Amerikkkans are the scum of the Earth. Revolutionaries are anti-Amerikkkan. Amerikkka will be smashed to dust.
There is nothing wrong with being an American, it's just a matter of where one lives. One lives in America, so they're American. The problem is the culture. Once upon a time, the American ideology was revolutionary; fighting against tyranny. But now we face the same type tyrants. So being American means to have revolutionary thoughts; fighting against the status quo and fighting for equality. Being Anti-American to me means to be against equality. To follow the government like an obedient puppy; a robot. Those Americans that speak out against the injustices and corruption this administration in particular has practiced, they are the epitome of a true American revolutionary.

To say Americans are the scum of the Earth is a huge overstatement. Those who run the government are the scum of the Earth, for the American people have lost control of their country. [/b]
Good point, although I disagree with you about the Government being the scum of the earth, sure there are major problems with it, but they are not the scum of the earth.

[Marion]

Originally posted by ECD Hollis+July 16, 2007 01:37 pm--> (ECD Hollis @ July 16, 2007 01:37 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 10:04 pm

[email protected] 15, 2007 09:45 pm
Amerikkkans are the scum of the Earth. Revolutionaries are anti-Amerikkkan. Amerikkka will be smashed to dust.
There is nothing wrong with being an American, it's just a matter of where one lives. One lives in America, so they're American. The problem is the culture. Once upon a time, the American ideology was revolutionary; fighting against tyranny. But now we face the same type tyrants. So being American means to have revolutionary thoughts; fighting against the status quo and fighting for equality. Being Anti-American to me means to be against equality. To follow the government like an obedient puppy; a robot. Those Americans that speak out against the injustices and corruption this administration in particular has practiced, they are the epitome of a true American revolutionary.

To say Americans are the scum of the Earth is a huge overstatement. Those who run the government are the scum of the Earth, for the American people have lost control of their country.
Good point, although I disagree with you about the Government being the scum of the earth, sure there are major problems with it, but they are not the scum of the earth.[/b]
Well, I'd agree and disagree.

On the one hand it's correct that living in America is, largely, a matter of chance and that there have been considerable revolutionary elements in America.

However, on the other hand, why is there a need to try and show that being "American means to have revolutionary thoughts; fighting against the status quo and fighting for equality"? Revolution is a matter of class and cannot be subsumed under or equated to a cross-class concept such as the nation. Needing to wrap up revolutionary concepts in national flags is counter-productive.

[joser03]

Originally posted by ECD Hollis+July 16, 2007 01:37 pm--> (ECD Hollis @ July 16, 2007 01:37 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 10:04 pm

[email protected] 15, 2007 09:45 pm
Amerikkkans are the scum of the Earth. Revolutionaries are anti-Amerikkkan. Amerikkka will be smashed to dust.
There is nothing wrong with being an American, it's just a matter of where one lives. One lives in America, so they're American. The problem is the culture. Once upon a time, the American ideology was revolutionary; fighting against tyranny. But now we face the same type tyrants. So being American means to have revolutionary thoughts; fighting against the status quo and fighting for equality. Being Anti-American to me means to be against equality. To follow the government like an obedient puppy; a robot. Those Americans that speak out against the injustices and corruption this administration in particular has practiced, they are the epitome of a true American revolutionary.

To say Americans are the scum of the Earth is a huge overstatement. Those who run the government are the scum of the Earth, for the American people have lost control of their country.
Good point, although I disagree with you about the Government being the scum of the earth, sure there are major problems with it, but they are not the scum of the earth.[/b]
It's those who actually run the government. The real puppet masters. Cheney, Rove, Bush, Gonzalez, and the rest of them, yes, they are the scum of the Earth. Imagine if they weren't around... and we had people in power who actually gave a shit about the whole rather than their selfish wants.