Class society--necessary and positive?

[southernmissfan]

Class societies exist wherever there is a division of labor. They are not evil in and of themselves for they serve to allow the group to accomplish what an individual cannot accomplish in their own. Marx and Lenin had it wrong- Capital and Labor need not be enemies - they cannot exist without each other, and working together, they can enrich both. Allowing either to be dominant is the continuing tragedy of human social and political history.

Something I read recently.

[Hit The North]

The quote is an example of a long tradition of thinking which wishes to avoid conflict and succors itself on the hope that capital and labour can be reconciled without abolishing the property relations they stand on and thereby eliminating the holders of capital.

It implies that capital and labour can exist as abstract equalities and fails to understand the real, material causes of the production and reproduction of class inequalities.

It's the mistaken analysis of all reformers and utopians and the fall-back argument of desperate capitalists.

[BobKKKindle$]

This comment is unclear in what is meant by the term 'division of labour'. Is this taken to mean broad specialisation across the entire economy such that not all labourers are employed in the production of the same product - as occurred through advances in agricultural technology - or does it mean specialisation within the workplace whereby the production of a commodity is broken up into a large number of small processes, each assigned to a worker? In any case, there is no reason why either could not exist under a system of Social ownership whereby one section of the population would be unable to impose its will on the majority through their ownership and control of economic resources, as occurs under Capitalism.

Militant Class confrontation may not even exist in all Capitalist societies, but this should not be taken as evidence that the interests of classes are not in fundamental opposition - Class struggle can occur in many ways, including ways we consider trivial. It is easy to characterise relations between Capital and Labour as amicable during periods of economic prosperity where the latter is not subject to material hardship and the former is not subject to financial insecurity and falling profit margins, but in slump periods the direct opposition of their interests becomes clear.

[Rawthentic]

Yes, allowing for one class to dominate another has been a tragedy for the workers under capitalism, and for the capitalists under socialism. Like Lenin said, class antagonisms are irreconcilable, and the victory of the workers necessarily leads to the dictatorship of the proletariat and then communism.

Basically, this guy is trying to make it seem as if we have any interests with the capitalists, which we don't, and trying to discourage us from overthrowing them, which would benefit us.

[rouchambeau]

The problem is that labor can, and has, existed without capital.

[KurtFF8]

It seems hard for anyone to try to justify class division as a positive thing. As under capitalism when such divisions exist, there is clearly a dominant class and the underclasses clearly don't have as much power as the ruling class.


they cannot exist without each other, and working together, they can enrich both.

Throughout history the lower class's cons far outweigh their benefits from capitalism. As Marx wrote: one good thing about capitalism is that it simplifies class relations, and it becomes obvious that capitalism benefits the ruling class and the bourgeoisie.

I would say that it's quite hard to justify these relations, as they are simplified under capitalism.

[Ezekiel]

This is not based on any historical analysis. They are preaching class collaborationism as something natural, as if there is not a contradictory relation between labor and capital.
The reality is, there is a contradiction between labor and capital, and therefore labor and capital cannot help but be enemies, even if they both say they are friends.
I wonder what this guy's take on slave societies like Rome and Greece are.