A couple questions

[Issaiah1332]

I was wondering what exactly a Vanguard party is?

What is Petty-bourgeoisie?

Are all workers being exploited? Such as: teachers, doctors, lawyers, police, and so forth.

I am just confused...and would like some help.

Thanks.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

I was wondering what exactly a Vanguard party is?

the most class conscious of the working class organised in a formal political party.

Or the most class conscoius of the working class organised in a non formal political party.

the second would refer to sydicalists etc.




What is Petty-bourgeoisie?

This is a relatively small class of people who own their own means of production. They generate little or not surplus value from other people.

Think like a family butchers, where the butcher owns the shop, and might employ one or two other people, or his family might work for him.




Are all workers being exploited? Such as: teachers, doctors, lawyers, police, and so forth.

Not all workers are. Doing something where you add value to society. In that a workers labour adds to societies social labour.

Teachers would do this, because they teach the potential workers what they need to know.

Police are not, because they do not do anything of actual use. There are various types and strata's of lawyer, some probably are exploited, some probably not. Lawyers can be petty-bourgeois as well as working class.

[BobKKKindle$]

What is Petty-bourgeoisie?

The Petty Bourgeoisie is a class in Capitalist societies, like the proletariat and bourgeoisie. This Class basically encompasses small business owners, who have ownership and command of a private enterprise but, in contrast to the Bourgeoisie, also play an important physical role in the production process. Members of this class generally only retain this position for a limited period of time - in the event that their enterprise develops to the point where they employ a large body of workers, they become part of the Bourgeosie, in the event that the enterprise fails, the become a member of the proletarian class - and thus survive through selling their labour power to another as a commodity. Some leftists would also say that this class encompasses professionals who are technically workers in terms of their relationship to the means of production but whose interests and income status are the same as those of the Bourgeoisie.


I was wondering what exactly a Vanguard party is?

The Vanguard is a group composed of the most class conscious part of the working class and other elements who are conscious of the exploitation of the Capitalist system and endeavour to bring about a revolution, such as students and intellectuals. The Vanguard is often organised as a Vanguard Party according to the principles of democratic centralism, and as a collective body the party endeavours to develop the class consciousness of the proletariat as a whole in order to facilitate revolutionary class confrontation. The Vanguard (party) may also play an important role in post-revolutionary society, especially with regard to organising new instruments of state power in order to defend the revolution. Most Socialists contend that such conscious organisation is important and necessary.


Are all workers being exploited? Such as: teachers, doctors, lawyers, police, and so forth.

Exploitation in Marxist terms has a specific meaning devoid of subjectivity, and is based on an idea called the surplus labour theory of value. Basically, 'exploitation' means paying the worker with the means to purchase a value of commodities that have a collective value that is less than the total increase in value a worker generates in the production process through their labour power. The difference is called Surplus value and is manifested as profit. In theory, anyone who sells their labour to a Capitalist who makes a profit through the production of a commodity is being exploited - including the professions you describe.

[apathy maybe]

What is Petty-bourgeoisie?
http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/p/e...tit-bourgeoisie (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/p/e.htm#petit-bourgeoisie)
http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/p/e...tty-bourgeoisie (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/p/e.htm#petty-bourgeoisie)

I disagree with the second definition on that second one, I think it is not helpful.

Are all workers being exploited? Such as: teachers, doctors, lawyers, police, and so forth.
I would say that workers who are paid less then what they are worth (generally teachers for example) are exploited. Doctors are often petit-bourgeois and thus aren't exploited, as are lawyers. Police may or maynot be exploited, but who cares, they are generally scum.
See also this thread, http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=64812 on teachers.

One think you have to remember, is that many people confuse Marxian terminology with other terminology. So, such things as "middle class" are not Marxist terms, and shouldn't be used in the same text or piece of writing as Marxist terms such as Proletariat and Bourgeoisie. At the same time, you have to make sure that you know what is meant by worker, some people use it as a synonym for proletariat, other people are not Marxists and have a different definition.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Apathy, i think you can use the conventional liberal classes to describe different stratas of the working class. So long as you are not changing their relationship to the economy.

Like, lower middle and middle class, while not Marxist, and really lacking solid or scientific definitions, can be used to explain class in tandem with the Marxian class analysis.

So, if i wanted to describe people from a hospital. I could say, nurses represent "lower-middle" class strata of the working class, while the head paediatrician is representative of the "middle class" strata of the working class.

yes, they are not scientific, but it is useful for explaining to non-marxist and non anarchists who don't understand Marxism.

Because, they will think your mad if you tell them a guy who drives a 1 year old BMW is working class.

does it make sense to you?

[apathy maybe]

It does, the trouble is that people use "middle-class" as a synonym for petit-bourgeois, and it isn't. And it really confuses the matter when they use the terms in the same piece. So, what I'm saying is, you can use any terms you want, so long as the meaning of those terms is clear.

I personally use Marxian terminology because I know that people know what I mean most of the time. I don't use middle-class because it is confusing unless defined.

[kurohata]

just out of interest, how would one place someone such as an accountant, who is working for a company, and is does not own any means of production (not exploiting anyone), but at the same time is not contributing anything really.
also, id like to suggest that its quite likely that in a post-revolutionary society, accountants would not longer exist as a profession.

this is totally just out of interest. i personally really dont care for labelling people, as it is pretty irrelevant. i think it is only relevant to distinguish between who would support the revoltion and who wouldnt, and it isnt always possible for one to do so, based soley on their job.

[apathy maybe]

Personally, I think it depends. I don't think that they are petit-bourgeois, they don't own any means of production.

In fact, like shop assistants, they don't really have a relation to the means of production.

This sort of example is why I don't really like Marxian class analysis. I would place them in the non-ruling classes, but as to whether they would revolt or not ...


And I agree with your second point, there are those who will revolt or join or not oppose, and those who will oppose the/a revolution. Those that oppose are the main problem.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

kurohata

An accountant who is a paid worker for a company is part of the working class.

Their job though is not a proletarian one.

What those types of jobs do, is help try to help stop the falling rate of profit.

This is because, an accountant to works the books, entering data to computers and other tasks is gathering information that is useful to the company.

This information will give the CEO's and directors the information they need to understand what they need to do to maximise profit.

So, if there is part of the company which is not performing well , then using the information provided by the accountant, the CEO's know they need to fire some of the workers because it is lagging, then that's what they will do.

They are continually fighting the tendency for the rate of profit to fall, that type of job help companies compensate for the tendency.

at least that's the way i understand it.

ps. WELCOME TO THE FORUM! :)

[Janus]

I was wondering what exactly a Vanguard party is?
A party consisting of professional revolutionaries who seek to lead the proletariat to revolution.


What is Petty-bourgeoisie?
Generally a self-employed businessman or professional who does not own a significant portio of the means of production.


Are all workers being exploited? Such as: teachers, doctors, lawyers, police, and so forth.
Yes, though doctors and lawyers (especially if they're self-employed) are generally not considered workers.

[Question everything]

Petty-Bourgois seems rather vague, There are sucessful and unsucessful entrepreneurs... I thought it mean factory owners, or somebody who employs others for full time jobs but doesn't own a chain of whatever (ie. Factories, Supermarkets, Corner stores) 'course for a long time I thought it meant anyone self employed.

As for workers, not nessesarily are they being exploited, I mean there is such a thing as well paid workers... but in a sense I guess you could say they all are, but personally I wouldn't go so far.

[Janus]

I thought it mean factory owners, or somebody who employs others for full time jobs but doesn't own a chain of whatever (ie. Factories, Supermarkets, Corner stores) 'course for a long time I thought it meant anyone self employed.
Factory owners are bourgeois. Small, independent business owners are generally considered petit bourgeois since their control of the means of production as opposed to the true bourgeois is slight.

[Question everything]

Still it is hard to Define classes down to a science. I mean from one definition of Bourgeous (Bourgeous is anyone who makes the majority of their earnings off company shares) would mean my father was a part of the bourgeous a while back, when we made our living off of stocks, in reality that was the worst 3 years of my life, we were probably losing money if not we were not nearly making enough, we lost a lot of our savings... My dad is self employed but not really petty bourgeous as I'd imagine them, if he is then maybe on a lower level, but we're not exactly rolling in money...

[Janus]

Bourgeous is anyone who makes the majority of their earnings off company shares
I've never heard of that definition and if it were true then a lot of seniors would be considered bourgeois as well. You could only be classified bourgeois if you owned a significant portion of company shares.