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Karl Marx's Camel
30th March 2007, 14:32
I can only assume that since threads that deals with the reality in Cuba will be trashed by the pro-Castro fanatics, this one will too. Of course they have a hard time digesting how things really is. They swallow regime propaganda like it was candy. Of course they are scared. They don't want to know about Cuban life, because it is a whole different world from that the regime claims it to be. Too bad for them.

I only want to talk about reality in Cuba. But if one do so it seems that one must be "anti-communist", "anti-Cuban" and even "North American". Funny thing is that it seems many of those who toss the "you are north american" argument around, is actually from that continent themselves.

This is not an essay. It is more of a rambling from a person who has spent large amounts of time in Cuba. You might ask why. Why I am a writing this? Why is a good question. And the reason is that I am getting increasedly fed up with the hallucinations of the pro-Castro fanatics.

You can try to hide truth from foreigners, but you cannot hide the truth from Cubans. And you cannot hide the truth from non-Cubans who have lived in Cuba or spent great amounts of time here.

Anyways here are the ramblings of a man who has spent time in Cuba, and these are the experiences...

The truth is Cuban workers don't have the kind of labor laws in other countries. They can be fired at any second. Everyone who worked at petrol stations in Cuba 2005/2006 got fired and were replaced with "social workers".

If you work in shifts, like for instance in a kiosk, you could sometimes have to work 12 hours after having worked a 12 hours shift, if the one who is going to take oer your shift is sick and have not found a replacement, and you won't get extra paid from this compulsory working overtime.

And we all hear about how Cubans own their own workplaces, but isn't it funny that Cubans exploit about every opportunity to steal or make scams in order to squeeze out money from their place of work?

More nad more high positions are getting personell from the military ranks.
Apparently a tourist agency named "Gaviota" is owned/controlled by the military. Because military leaders will receive much higher penalties if they steal from their workplace.


The notion that there is democracy in Cuba is a joke, even if the state tries to convince its own people and foreginers of it.


Which country would have elcted a president that is getting close to the age of 81 and has spent the past year in hospital and been mortally ill.


If you go against Fidel in Cuba, it could almost be compared to a kamikaze attack/suicide. If you are elected to the national assembly you get power, prestige, extra priviledges like apartment, free food and drinks, hotel stay and the whole family get vacation, so much that you almost do not need the little wage you get. If you go against Fidel you can loose many of these goods and have to move to a apartment of lower standards and perhaps be blackmailed, which means no, or at least a much worse job.


Cubans who do nto vote in elections can be visited by police or their boss and in worst case lose their job, or be degraded and never advance in the system/workplace.

Before Fidel was sick, he was often in some sort of discussion/talk show that often went several times a week. To call it a TV debate would be misleading because everyone agreed almost 100 percent.

This TV show started around 2000 hours and lasted an hour or two, and then started Fidel with his "speech" that could last several hours without anyone being able to say anything, and no one dared to interrupt him. Often the show ended far over midnight, after Fidel's long speech.
I think this example says how much power he has in Cuba. Fidel controls media in when and where he will talk to media and what is going to be brought up and told.

From what I have heard, Fidel makes 36 CUC in a month. Fidel lives in a nice house, and a secret video from his house show that he lives very well compared to Cuban standards.

Even if it is cheap to live in Cuba, 36 cuc is not going to cut his expenses.


These leading people have coupons, they use them to get free food, personal hygiene products etc. Bosses that makes 30 cuc in a month have to their disposal a driver with a lada, that picks him up and drives him to work or drives you to your workplace. The chauffeur gets perhaps 7-10 cuc a month plus what the chauffeur and the boss dear and can sell illegal from the cars gasoline tank on the black market.

This mentioned here in this paragraph is not personal experience, but has happened to a close friend of mine that has been in resturants or by the tables in popular swimming pools and seen important Cubans drink and eat and they have only put things on the receit when they leave, without paying anything. He has seen different people in hotels and seen important Cubans with their family, often their wife, children and mother, live in all inclusive hotels that would have cost them aout 150-200 CUC per night together if they had payed. And even one time when the ordinary tourists drank from the cheap coctails, while Cubans drank 7 year old Havana Club that they did not even get in the bar.


The whole system that the regime/party class is based on are very much about cupoons. Police have their own parties in parks, where they pay one Cuban peso for a beer, there are about 25 cuban peso for 1 peso convertible, then you drink 25 bottles of beer for about 1 dollar. In the stores the bottles costs from about half a dollar to a little under one dollar for one bottle.


Like a friend who is a security guard, he gets some personal hygiene products every month. Others get some food, like cuppons with chickens on them that they can get in special stores.


Just look at these youths who study to be "social workers", they live in 50 CUC hotels and get free food and clothing, great busses that transport them every day, free disco and access swimming pool.

Met someone from the telephone compnay, they too lived in hotel and had cupoons they used in resturants, even hotel rooms they can get with cuppons.

apathy maybe
30th March 2007, 15:50
When I saw this thread "The class of government members, in Cuba", I thought it was asking what class they were. My answer is, the ruling class. Obviously, that answer still stands. However, I feel that it isn't quite sufficient given the actual post.


I have never been to Cuba, so I can only comment on conditions from the outside. However, to me the political system does seem undemocratic.

"unicameral National Assembly of People's Power or Asemblea Nacional del Poder Popular (609 seats, elected directly from slates approved by special candidacy commissions; members serve five-year terms)" (from The CIA (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html) . Yes I know it biased, but so long as you know how, it doesn't matter.). So, you get to elect your parliament, but only from a list of approved candidates. Yay. Seems a lot like the sort of democracy that you can see in the USA, UK and elsewhere, except that in these places you can stand, you just can't win.

The president is then elected by this body, indeed that is democratic.

Despite all those problems, you cannot deny that Cuba has achieved a number of things compared to other countries in the region.

Whitten
30th March 2007, 16:40
Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 01:32 pm
I can only assume that since threads that deals with the reality in Cuba will be trashed by the pro-Castro fanatics, this one will too. Of course they have a hard time digesting how things really is. They swallow regime propaganda like it was candy. Of course they are scared. They don't want to know about Cuban life, because it is a whole different world from that the regime claims it to be. Too bad for them.

I only want to talk about reality in Cuba. But if one do so it seems that one must be "anti-communist", "anti-Cuban" and even "North American". Funny thing is that it seems many of those who toss the "you are north american" argument around, is actually from that continent themselves.

This is not an essay. It is more of a rambling from a person who has spent large amounts of time in Cuba. You might ask why. Why I am a writing this? Why is a good question. And the reason is that I am getting increasedly fed up with the hallucinations of the pro-Castro fanatics.

You can try to hide truth from foreigners, but you cannot hide the truth from Cubans. And you cannot hide the truth from non-Cubans who have lived in Cuba or spent great amounts of time here.

Anyways here are the ramblings of a man who has spent time in Cuba, and these are the experiences...

The truth is Cuban workers don't have the kind of labor laws in other countries. They can be fired at any second. Everyone who worked at petrol stations in Cuba 2005/2006 got fired and were replaced with "social workers".

If you work in shifts, like for instance in a kiosk, you could sometimes have to work 12 hours after having worked a 12 hours shift, if the one who is going to take oer your shift is sick and have not found a replacement, and you won't get extra paid from this compulsory working overtime.

And we all hear about how Cubans own their own workplaces, but isn't it funny that Cubans exploit about every opportunity to steal or make scams in order to squeeze out money from their place of work?

More nad more high positions are getting personell from the military ranks.
Apparently a tourist agency named "Gaviota" is owned/controlled by the military. Because military leaders will receive much higher penalties if they steal from their workplace.


The notion that there is democracy in Cuba is a joke, even if the state tries to convince its own people and foreginers of it.


Which country would have elcted a president that is getting close to the age of 81 and has spent the past year in hospital and been mortally ill.


If you go against Fidel in Cuba, it could almost be compared to a kamikaze attack/suicide. If you are elected to the national assembly you get power, prestige, extra priviledges like apartment, free food and drinks, hotel stay and the whole family get vacation, so much that you almost do not need the little wage you get. If you go against Fidel you can loose many of these goods and have to move to a apartment of lower standards and perhaps be blackmailed, which means no, or at least a much worse job.


Cubans who do nto vote in elections can be visited by police or their boss and in worst case lose their job, or be degraded and never advance in the system/workplace.

Before Fidel was sick, he was often in some sort of discussion/talk show that often went several times a week. To call it a TV debate would be misleading because everyone agreed almost 100 percent.

This TV show started around 2000 hours and lasted an hour or two, and then started Fidel with his "speech" that could last several hours without anyone being able to say anything, and no one dared to interrupt him. Often the show ended far over midnight, after Fidel's long speech.
I think this example says how much power he has in Cuba. Fidel controls media in when and where he will talk to media and what is going to be brought up and told.

From what I have heard, Fidel makes 36 CUC in a month. Fidel lives in a nice house, and a secret video from his house show that he lives very well compared to Cuban standards.

Even if it is cheap to live in Cuba, 36 cuc is not going to cut his expenses.


These leading people have coupons, they use them to get free food, personal hygiene products etc. Bosses that makes 30 cuc in a month have to their disposal a driver with a lada, that picks him up and drives him to work or drives you to your workplace. The chauffeur gets perhaps 7-10 cuc a month plus what the chauffeur and the boss dear and can sell illegal from the cars gasoline tank on the black market.

This mentioned here in this paragraph is not personal experience, but has happened to a close friend of mine that has been in resturants or by the tables in popular swimming pools and seen important Cubans drink and eat and they have only put things on the receit when they leave, without paying anything. He has seen different people in hotels and seen important Cubans with their family, often their wife, children and mother, live in all inclusive hotels that would have cost them aout 150-200 CUC per night together if they had payed. And even one time when the ordinary tourists drank from the cheap coctails, while Cubans drank 7 year old Havana Club that they did not even get in the bar.


The whole system that the regime/party class is based on are very much about cupoons. Police have their own parties in parks, where they pay one Cuban peso for a beer, there are about 25 cuban peso for 1 peso convertible, then you drink 25 bottles of beer for about 1 dollar. In the stores the bottles costs from about half a dollar to a little under one dollar for one bottle.


Like a friend who is a security guard, he gets some personal hygiene products every month. Others get some food, like cuppons with chickens on them that they can get in special stores.


Just look at these youths who study to be "social workers", they live in 50 CUC hotels and get free food and clothing, great busses that transport them every day, free disco and access swimming pool.

Met someone from the telephone compnay, they too lived in hotel and had cupoons they used in resturants, even hotel rooms they can get with cuppons.
can you provide a souce to back up this rant? I find it ironic that you accuse the pro-Cuban's here of unquestioningly accepting properganda from Havana, while you seem to be accepting the lies of Washington as fact.

Vargha Poralli
30th March 2007, 17:38
Which country would have elcted a president that is getting close to the age of 81 and has spent the past year in hospital and been mortally ill.

Not as elderly as Fidel but Indian primeministers average modal age is normally 75-85. Most of the time they spend in hospitals. And India is free and democratic :o


can you provide a souce to back up this rant? I find it ironic that you accuse the pro-Cuban's here of unquestioningly accepting properganda from Havana, while you seem to be accepting the lies of Washington as fact.

First let him provide the source from which he got this thing. Then we shall decide the nature of the propaganda.


Despite all those problems, you cannot deny that Cuba has achieved a number of things compared to other countries in the region.

Other capitalist countries not only in that region but also elsewhere. That makes the difference actually.

Karl Marx's Camel
30th March 2007, 17:46
you cannot deny that Cuba has achieved a number of things compared to other countries in the region.

Of course not, and I do not know why you bring this up.

This was a thread about the discussion of the party/government and the benefits and priviledges they receive.


while you seem to be accepting the lies of Washington as fact.

What lies? This is bullshit, and quite insulting. Why would marxists listen to the lies of Washington. How can experiences from being in Cuba be "lies of Washington"?


Not as elderly as Fidel but Indian primeministers average modal age is normally 75-85.

Noted. But I doubt you've seen a Indian prime minister spending most of his life in office, from his early 30's up until his 80's.

Vargha Poralli
30th March 2007, 18:01
Noted. But I doubt you've seen a Indian prime minister spending most of his life in office, from his early 30's up until his 80's.

They would have if not death prevented them.



Of course not, and I do not know why you bring this up.

This was a thread about the discussion of the party/government and the benefits and priviledges they receive.


Look Cuba is not a perfect workers state. It cannot be as long as there is capitalism. Neverthless if people of Cuba didn't want their govt they would have easily overthrown it any time. But on the contrary they stood behind it during a time of great economic difficluties. That says some thing.


Which lies? This is bullshit, and quite insulting. Why would marxists listen to the lies of Washington. How can experiences from being in Cuba be "lies of Washington"?

Then you should have provided a verifiable source. Even I can claim that I have visited Cuab last month and say that Cuban people use milk for bathing and washing that does not portray the real situation.

Again provide the source and no one will say that you are a mouthpiece of Washington propaganda machine.

The Grey Blur
30th March 2007, 18:17
Those who run the state can't be a seperate class as the state is in itself a creation of class antagonisms, the bureaucrats of Cuba are part of the apparatus of this state, and are a priveliged caste, not a seperate class.

ABC Marxism yay.

Pilar
30th March 2007, 18:49
Look...

Speculation on Cuba's future is silly. Pointless.

Cuba's government's executive has never been challeneged since the Revolution. Do people want to return to preCastro times, of course not. Do they embrace all aspects of the revolution, of course not.

The only way to test Cuba is for Castro to die, and then his brother.

The problem with so many leftist revolutions is that instead of becoming true structures that move toward socialism, they become personality cults.

Just give Chavez another 10 years as president and he will begin trying to determine who will follow him as president.

The question over Cuba is whether or not others outside of Castro's family will ever CONTINUE the revolution, or whether they'll be lining their own pockets.

Louis Pio
30th March 2007, 18:58
The question over Cuba is whether or not others outside of Castro's family will ever CONTINUE the revolution, or whether they'll be lining their own pockets.

A good point, but a bit focused top down. It will of course also depend on what the mass of Cuban workers and peasants will do.

Karl Marx's Camel
30th March 2007, 20:02
They would have if not death prevented them.


Speculation.

Could you name a democratically elected leader that has ruled since his early 30s and until he lies in his deathbed as an 80 year old man?


Look Cuba is not a perfect workers state.

Yes. But do you really think this is how a workers state work? I mean do you really think these things would happen in a workers state?


To put it a different way, why, let's say the people of Cuba is class conscious and if the people of Cuba ruled, would they accept such behavior?


Neverthless if people of Cuba didn't want their govt they would have easily overthrown it any time.

Agreed.


But on the contrary they stood behind it during a time of great economic difficluties. That says some thing.

It says something, but not everything.
Does not history show that status quo has survived in many instances, including societal depression, no matter the social system?


Again provide the source

Personal experiences from staying in Cuba.

Pilar
30th March 2007, 20:18
It will of course also depend on what the mass of Cuban workers and peasants will do.

100% agreement.

Rawthentic
30th March 2007, 23:08
But do you really think this is how a workers state work? I mean do you really think these things would happen in a workers state?

Of course not, Cuba is not a worker's state. These things don't just "happen" in a worker's state, it is the product of material conditions and Cuba's isolation. For these things to be remedied there is the need of a worldwide revolution.

PRC-UTE
31st March 2007, 00:09
Originally posted by Permanent [email protected] 30, 2007 05:17 pm
Those who run the state can't be a seperate class as the state is in itself a creation of class antagonisms, the bureaucrats of Cuba are part of the apparatus of this state, and are a priveliged caste, not a seperate class.

ABC Marxism yay.
Well said.

This brings up what I've said about NWOG before- he doesn't understand what Socialism is.

Cuba claims to be building socialism... and under socialism there are classes and a bureaurcracy... and this in a third world country.(!)

That's the problem with NWOG's obsessive attacks on Cuba. Not that he's attacking Cuba but the fact that these arguments are completely idealist.

PRC-UTE
31st March 2007, 00:13
Here's an example of what I'm talking about with NWOG:

NWOG writes:

A single man cannot maintain socialism. That is not "socialism". Socialism can only be "maintained" by a class conscious people.

ie Cuba is not socialist,

I respond:


Empirical evidence has already us the opposite- Fidel isn't holding up socialism in Cuba, the masses are. His career as leader of the Cuban state has effectively passed on and he is little more than a moral leader at this point.

Only you and the Rightists continue to deny this!

No responce from NWOG to that.

http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic...entry1292289273 (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=62831&st=25&#entry1292289273)

OneBrickOneVoice
31st March 2007, 04:22
Cuba has private property which pisses me off and also sided with the Soviet Union and depended on it as a bandaid rather than following the Chinese path of economic restructuring for the economy to build national determination and independence. Anyhow, NWOG, you are a complete dick. Not one of your posts goes by without blurting out Imperialist propaganda and its quite sickening no matter weither you're a primitivist, maoist, anarchist, or trotskyist. The cuban system is far better at meeting the needs of the people than the free market capitalist systems of its similiar carribean island/small country counterparts like Haiti and the Dominican Republic in every single aspect despite the deathly embargo.

Rawthentic
31st March 2007, 04:55
Take it easy on NWOG. Everybody here knows and understands that Cuba offers that highest standard of living in the underdeveloped world. He is merely trying to show that it is not perfect as many wish it was, and that there are grave problems there. This is not bourgeois propaganda, its a critical look at how Cuba is, but there should always be presented an alternative, which NWOG hasn't done. I propose world-wide revolution.

Vargha Poralli
31st March 2007, 09:25
Again provide the source


Personal experiences from staying in Cuba.

I think there can be no sensible argument with you.

You hate Castro. No one can help you.


Speculation.

Could you name a democratically elected leader that has ruled since his early 30s and until he lies in his deathbed as an 80 year old man?


Wiki Jawaharlal Nehru, Indira Gandhi and M.G.Ramachandran. They are populists and have been elected again and again by Indians till their death. Indira even after her death won an election for her party.



Yes. But do you really think this is how a workers state work? I mean do you really think these things would happen in a workers state?


To put it a different way, why, let's say the people of Cuba is class conscious and if the people of Cuba ruled, would they accept such behavior?

I have already said Cuba is not a perfect workers state. It cannot be perfect. If it had been it would have proved that socialism in one country as a theory works.

We can't do anything under capitalism . We need world wide communism to make Cuba a perfect workers state. Mean while instead of spewing hatred on Castro(who is going to die anyway sooner or later) we concentrate of doing what we can to take away political power from those who exploiting workers in the mean time.

UndergroundConnexion
31st March 2007, 09:40
don't take this wrong but why this anti - Fidel crussade NWOG? I see more and more of these topics? why..

plus i do not know what you meant by free food, but hin Cuba, ieven in the good hotels you do not get more then the usual
pasta or rice, with either chiciken, porc , or fish

Karl Marx's Camel
31st March 2007, 11:33
don't take this wrong but why this anti - Fidel crussade NWOG?

Why is it a problem to point out reality in Cuba?

Are people here so ashamed of Cuban reality that they need to deliver personal attacks?

I do not hate Castro. I do not "like" him either. I like some of what he has done, and dislike other things.



You hate Castro. No one can help you.

"You are infidel. No one, not even God can help you".


Wiki Jawaharlal Nehru, Indira Gandhi and M.G.Ramachandran. They are populists and have been elected again and again by Indians till their death. Indira even after her death won an election for her party.


OK, noted.


I think there can be no sensible argument with you.

You hate Castro. No one can help you.


It is funny. One talk about personal experiences from being in a country and when one does ethat "one hates Castro". I can only assume that you are to some extent disgusted by the state of Cuba today, since you need to be so negative and angry.



ieven in the good hotels you do not get more then the usual
pasta or rice, with either chiciken, porc , or fish

IIRC, for instance Inglaterra has more than that.

In any case, food is food. Let us assume for a moment that one does only get pasta or rice, with either chicken, pork or fish in hotels in Cuba. Does really the selection matter when the food is free? I mean does the food become "less free" when you can "only" choose from chicken, pork or fish?

Whitten
31st March 2007, 11:50
NWOG, if you were willing to provide just one source (other than yourself) we may be able to have a reasonable discussion, but you have refused to do so more than once in this topic and so we can only conclude you dont have any, and your on some sort of illogical personal crusade.

apathy maybe
31st March 2007, 14:48
It is funny, but NWOG as provided personal experience as evidence.

No one else has provided any sources to refute what he is saying. Going on what I know (which is I admit coloured by the media where I get most of my information, which is of course the mainstream media), what he says seems reasonable. I don't have any information to refute what he says.

So, if he is wrong, then present your sources showing that he is wrong. Don't just crap on about how he is obviously anti-Castro (so am I, big deal) or anti-Cuba (hell, I don't think that Cuba is great either).

As to definitions, using my definition of socialism, I don't think that Cuba really is socialist, it is a lot closer then many other places, but it still isn't. So, that is a definitional problem, and you can't use that to attack what he has written.

Vargha Poralli
31st March 2007, 16:29
It is funny. One talk about personal experiences from being in a country and when one does ethat "one hates Castro". I can only assume that you are to some extent disgusted by the state of Cuba today, since you need to be so negative and angry.

Look in a hell a lot of threads we have provided evidences that Cuban people stand behind their government which is headed by Castro. He is now non-functional. He is retired this is Cuba after Castro. It is too early to judge peoples mood now.

You claimed something and have (so far)refused to provide a source to back up your claim. Provide a source.

If it is your personal experience then surely we cant help you. What is the use me sitting in India and agree that Cuban ruling class is shitty is going to help nobody.


It is funny, but NWOG as provided personal experience as evidence.

If you had some sense and read what i have replied earlier you would not have said this in first place.Even I can claim that I have visited Cuab last month and say that Cuban people use milk for bathing and washing that does not portray the real situation.


Post (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=64781&view=findpost&p=1292291200)


No one else has provided any sources to refute what he is saying. Going on what I know (which is I admit coloured by the media where I get most of my information, which is of course the mainstream media), what he says seems reasonable. I don't have any information to refute what he says.

So, if he is wrong, then present your sources showing that he is wrong. Don't just crap on about how he is obviously anti-Castro (so am I, big deal) or anti-Cuba (hell, I don't think that Cuba is great either).


Well we have. But NWOG had already said that

You can try to hide truth from foreigners, but you cannot hide the truth from Cubans. And you cannot hide the truth from non-Cubans who have lived in Cuba or spent great amounts of time here.




They swallow regime propaganda like it was candy. Of course they are scared. They don't want to know about Cuban life, because it is a whole different world from that the regime claims it to be. Too bad for them.


Post (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=64781&view=findpost&p=1292291200)
So why the fuck we should post anything which refutes his claims.


As to definitions, using my definition of socialism, I don't think that Cuba really is socialist,

Oh really !!!! :rolleyes:


So, that is a definitional problem, and you can't use that to attack what he has written.

What else you suggest we should do ? You wanted to provide sources to the contrary but he never back up his claims. Most of his claims are actually known to every body.