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sexyguy
29th March 2007, 20:47
1Workers states are way forward but minus Moscow weak revisionist leadership chaos. The struggle for socialism faces such confusion that only, a review of even the most basic assumptions about the individual and society will clarify a way forward.
2. The supposed 'triumph' of the Reagan Thatcher 'New World Order' and the supposed 'defeat' and 'collapse' of the Soviet Union, plus the retreat of all 'Reformism' into openly accepting (like New Labour) that it is just a movement for full class-collaboration with capitalism on a permanent basis, - have helped spread cynical scepticism about even the most basic class-war science of Marxism.

3. As a result of it now being doubted that any economic system could ever match the phenomenal innovations and technology-productivity of the 'free market', there is also now widespread doubt that anything remotely like the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution could ever happen again.

4. In turn, this muddle gets caught up with sneaking suspicions that the whole Soviet experience might have been a very unhealthy one-off cul-de-sac in history, a sick wrong turning utterly irrelevant to socialism.

5. Apart from a few groups of museum-Stalinists in some countries who simply deny most of the difficult problems of 20th century development, all the rest of the 57 varieties of Trotskyism, Revisionism, and Centrism on the fake-'left' tend to capitulate to this all-powerful international anti-communist sentiment.

6. This widespread mentality not only challenges traditional Marxist ideas on how socialism could come about, but on how history itself works. Instead of class-struggle revolutions being civilisation's driving force, idealist philosophy again rules. The fake-'left' spends its entire time manoeuvring for electoral 'alliance' pecking order position (LSA Trots); trying to recreate 'left' Labourism (CPB, SLP, SP,) etc or pretending to guarantee 'mistake-free socialism’ by the pedantic peddling of abstract act, generalised programmes, constitution; or standing orders of some wholly academic immaculate-party conception (CPGB, SLP, open Polemic, etc).

7. Wholly shunned is any attempt to re-convince the international working-class that a further development of Marxist scientific understanding alone holds the key to civilisation's future by demonstrating a correct analysis of the current stage of imperialist crisis and polemically defending it against all comers, -- rebuilding a party of revolutionary theory as Leninism did, in other words.

8. Current world events are either ignored completely, or dealt with by some wooden formula which then not only ignores all polemical critique but even keeps its mind closed when history itself proves things differently. For example, the SWP became the fattest of the fake-'lefts' via decades of the most reactionary anti-Soviet opportunism. Crucial for these anti-communist 'revolutionaries' was the fiction that 'socialist' solidarity with the USSR against imperialist provocation, subversion, and sabotage was not an issue because the Soviet Union was only 'state capitalist' itself anyway. When the Gorbachev 'market forces' counter-revolutionary debacle did finally re-introduce state capitalism (quickly inevitably joined and shafted by robber-baron capitalism), and when the overthrow of proletarian-dictatorship centre planning and discipline via state-capitalist 'market forces’ soon devastated the former mighty USSR, thus proving that what went before for 60 years could not have been state capitalism, -- the SWP simply carried on insisting that its 'theory' which 'justified' its anti-Soviet hatred was 'still correct'.

9. What undermined the Stalinist Revisionist ideology of the USSR was its being proved wrong by events. The entire 57-variety swamp of fake-'leftism' still has not grasped this point and is doomed to destruction along exactly the same sterile path as Third International Revisionism.

10. Such widespread multi-hued anti-Marxism has captured the international workers movement before, of course. It was rescued from 57 varieties of Bernsteinism, Kautskyism, Luxemburgism, social pacifism, social chauvinism, etc, etc in 1917 by the combination of spontaneous revolutionary struggle ripping the imperialist world apart whether anyone had written a constitutional programme or a set of perfect standing orders for it or not, plus the correct scientific analysis of the world by Lenin's deliberate party of revolutionary theory ('What is to be done', etc) which was consequently trusted by the masses to give guidance and leadership to the revolution.

11. A recent new feature of the anti-communist fake-'left' has been to replace the old Trot cliché that 'Lenin was a great revolutionary socialist but Stalin's brutal dictatorship imposed a counter-revolution' (which has always caused difficulty since no one could ever agree when, where, and how this counter-revolution took place), - with the more internally coherent line that 'Lenin's revolution was a monstrous antisocialist dictatorship from the start', etc.

12. The problem for the anti-communists with this, of course, is the same one that routine anti-Stalinism found difficulty with (apart from in a handful of very wealthily bourgeois Western imperialist countries), namely, that although very patchy and seriously theoretically flawed, the actual 70-year record of the Soviet Union in standing up to or challenging imperialist world domination in so many ways, exposed all instinctive class-based anti-Sovietism for the idealist anti-Marxist reaction that it was.
Despite endless allegations of dubious motives, crass interference, grotesque mistakes, etc, the plain reality is that for 70 years, the backward and war devastated workers state founded by Leninism made colossal disciplined sacrifices to help two-thirds of the world rise up against colonial slavery and start their own independent economic and cultural development, supplying doctors, engineers, educational establishments, agronomists, dams, economic enterprises, backed by scores of special Third World colleges and institutions set up in the USSR itself, setting a completely new agenda for the world to replace the bombs, bullets, and scorched-earth tyranny that the dying colonial empires (Britain, France, USA, Holland, Portugal, Belgium, Spain, etc) had tried hanging onto power with post-1947 in Algeria, Malaysia, Vietnam and Indo-China, Egypt, Kenya, Aden, Indonesia, Mozambique, etc, etc, etc. In addition, a score or more countries, from China to Cuba, were further generously helped to establish their own planned economies in defiant independence of the non-stop worldwide imperialist attempts at armed subversion and counterrevolution, at economic embargo-strangulation, and at ideological propaganda-destruction.

13. These most outstanding and astonishing achievements yet (in the history of international political development) only started going irrevocably wrong when the Moscow bureaucracy began to lose the plot theoretically about how the later stages of the international class war to destroy the international imperialist bourgeoisie and its system of 'free-market' world economic domination, would unfold. Widespread confusion started taking root in the international workers movement from the 1930s Popular Front onwards that capitalism might finally be toppled or tamed, universally, partly by the worldwide pressure of anti-imperialist coalitions of cross-class 'democracy'.
This anti-revolutionary delusion was further cemented by the tragic World War II confusion that there were 'good' imperialists (USA, Britain France, etc) who were prepared to become an 'ally' of the Soviet workers state in its fight for survival against German imperialist onslaught, and there were 'bad' imperialists (Germany, Japan, Italy, etc) who were out to destroy the USSR.
This imbecile falsification of Marxism and history then spawned further stupidities that 'good' imperialism might eventually accept the need to peacefully coexist permanently with the socialist camp, and in time even acknowledge socialism's superiority as an economic system. This in turn gave birth around the Third International to the nonsense of the 'peaceful road to socialism', and misled the Moscow bureaucracy into foolish and needless boasts that Soviet consumer products would soon outperform, in terms of quality and productivity, the slickest and most cost-effective output of Western imperialism (which had the whole world to exploit at often slave-labour rates and under direct colonial tyranny)-- -- a pointless and ridiculous claim when socialism's target was pointing in the entirely opposite direction of trying to equalize living standards and investment levels right across the socialist camp from Cuba to North Korea and Vietnam. There was no way that factory shirts e.g. from Uzbekistan with its universal free health service, secondary and higher education, widespread cultural facilities, etc, could ever be turned out with so much labour-content so cheaply as shirts churned out from Bangkok factories by child-labour literally sold into bondage by an illiterate peasantry and some times literally chained to the looms and sewing machines for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week.
But this daftest way possible of trying to 'compare' the building of socialism with the cut-throat competitiveness of the monopoly-imperialist free market was pursued relentlessly by the Revisionist Moscow bureaucracy to the point where Gorbachev eventually concluded that free-market capitalism was the better way to run society altogether, and set about deliberately dismantling the dictatorship of the proletariat.

14. It was the theoretical legacy of the Stalin era which did the damage. The Revisionist bureaucrats subsequent to Stalin idiotically missed this most crucial aspect when struggling to overcome the 'cult of the individual and its consequences', concentrating instead on the alleged paranoid arbitrary illegalities in the war against imperialist subversion and counter-revolutionary backsliding. On most questions of anti-imperialist revolutionary theory, the subsequent Revisionist bureaucrats departed even further from Marxism-Leninism towards international class-collaborationism and liquidationism than Stalin did.
On the really essential questions of 'Stalinism', the subsequent detractor bureaucrats were in fact more Stalinist than Stalin, suggesting by Gorbachev's time, for example, that World War II might not have been an inevitability of imperialist-system crisis but possibly an avoidable bureaucratic mistake by the Moscow leadership of the time (i.e. Stalin).
An entire anti-Stalin Revisionist literature was produced post-Stalin which traced bureaucratic deterioration difficulties in running the Soviet Union all to the weakening of cadres for subjective reasons (only those who could not stand up to Stalin getting promoted, etc, etc) whereas in reality, the deterioration in the bureaucracy came from compounding the mistakes in world analysis (objective mistakes) which earlier bureaucrats (led by Stalin) had made, thereby eventually weakening the ability and authority of the party leadership all round, culminating in its astonishing self-liquidation, - the first case in history of a 'ruling class' abolishing itself (proving thereby, of course, that it was not a true 'ruling class' in any sense, but really was just a bureaucracy of a truly workers state, and was, therefore, theoretically susceptible to any and every improvement and transformation, if only the correct understanding of what the world needed could have been arrived at in time).
Dreadful rationalisation has been retrospectively applied implying that the bureaucracy finally self-liquidated because it saw itself as flawed subjectively and therefore as an obstacle to further progress; but in reality the Gorbachev bureaucracy self-liquidated because it claimed to be able to see market forces as the genuinely better objective way forward for the Soviet economy; an insanity which the USSR's uncompetitive remains are still tragically and grievously suffering from, and which will look even more insane when world slump starts wiping out the 'higher living standards' (a patchy fraud to start with) of the free market.
The wrong critique of Soviet bureaucracy's humiliation currently circulating, - that "in the age of assessing different variants of new scientific and technological achievements and permitting various types of quests, the wilful methods of leadership were bound to lead to mistakes", etc, etc, - is no advance on Trotsky's reactionary, self-serving, subjective bilge from 1936 in the 'Revolution Betrayed'. If, indeed, it were true, as is argued, that, "the Administrative System (meaning the party bureaucracy at the head of the dictatorship of the proletariat running an entirely planned economy, publicly-owned) finds it particularly difficult to function in the conditions of the scientific and technological revolution when industry has to deal on a daily basis not with just one or two inventions, but an avalanche of innovations"; and "the decision-makers, possessing no objective economic criteria, inevitably become hostages to foreign countries, where what is being used is always correct"; and "the Administrative System proves to be more and more incompetent in dealing with the key problem of the second half of the 20th century - the problem of scientific and technological progress:', etc, etc, - - - then market forces would rule forever, and the dream of a planned socialist world would truly be dead.
But in reality, the Soviet workers state carried on successfully, technologically transforming itself for a further period four times longer than the span of existence it had covered when Trotsky first declared in 1936 that 'all further Soviet economic progress was now out of the question because the demands of modern technological change had now run into the absolute limits of bureaucratic-dictatorship command-economy management's ability to respond flexibly enough to all the detailed delicate new innovative requirements', etc.
If the USSR could multiply its productive growth period of 1923 to 1936 by five times to reach 1988 successfully, having mastered space exploration, nuclear rocket engineering, aircraft design and mass production, computerised television communications etc, etc, etc, along the way, - despite having been utterly war-destroyed again by another Western imperialist invasion-intervention from 1941 to 1945, and despite having propped up half the Third World with free technological assistance thereafter - then Trotsky's sour grapes counter-revolutionary nonsense was clearly proved as such, and the above 1988 Gorbachevite version of the same irrational anti-Marxist mysticism made no sense either. If bureaucrat state planning can do it at one time, it can do it at another time just as easily.

15. What undermined the final generation of Soviet bureaucratic leadership was not an inability to cope with "the new scale and pace of scientific and technological progress” (Nauka i Zhizn, 1988 Science & Life, the 3.2million monthly circulation magazine of the All-Union Knowledge Society) but a degenerate Revisionism which made an even more disastrous mess of failing to understand imperialism as an incurable system of boom-and-bust crisis than Stalin had done.
The background to this rationalised idealism (about Soviet state planning suddenly becoming incapable allegedly, of coping with technological innovation any longer) -lay in the confusion sown by Stalin's 1952 work 'Economic Problems of Socialism'. This had mapped out how the conflict with imperialism would be overcome peacefully through the socialist states eventually easily outperforming the capitalist economies. When this uncorrected anti-Marxist nonsense had failed to prove true by the late 1980s (according to how the then generation of Moscow Revisionist bureaucrats chose to measure things), this ongoing anti-Marxist confusion decided to abort not Stalin's mistaken ideas about this pointless and unrealistic 'competition' and about misunderstanding the boom bust nature of imperialist crisis, but his sound ideas about how the Soviet economy should continue to organise its development.
When the Western economies failed to decline to a crawl and be overtaken by the socialist camp, as Stalin's 'theory' explained must happen, Gorbachev & Co decided it was because the Soviet economy was failing to make proper use of market mechanisms. Stalin’s 'theory' carried such weight that it was not even questioned, (in spite of much 'anti-Stalin' posturing after his death), because it fitted so well into so many other non-Marxist anti-revolutionary delusions the bureaucracy had lived by.
It suited admirably the established wishful thinking that maybe ultimate all-out conflict between the socialist camp and the 'good' Western imperialists (now dominant - USA, Britain, France) could be avoided. With the socialist camp still constantly growing, and going from success to success, then the cooperative coexistence illusion of the wartime Soviet alliance, - (forced on the West by Stalin cleverly splitting the rearming imperialist warmongers ranged against the USSR in 1939, halting the Western-approved German invasion plan against the USSR by signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop non-aggression pact), --- was envisaged as extending to a near permanent understanding by the West that it would never be a good idea for capitalism to get involved in a war with the USSR again.
But this not-incorrect sentiment that (JVS) "the struggle of the capitalist countries for markets and their desire to crush their competitors proved in practice to be stronger than the contradictions between the capitalist camp and the socialist camp", (referring to how WWII started out as an inter-imperialist war in spite of the West’s hopes that it would just be anti-Soviet Armageddon), - only found expression in hopelessly anti-revolutionary notions.
Extending the idea that inter-imperialist conflicts in practice could overtake the even more fundamental contradictions in the long run between capitalism and socialism, Stalin goes on:
"WWII began not as a war with the USSR but as a war between capitalist countries. Why? Firstly, because war with the USSR, as a socialist land, is more dangerous to capitalism than war between capitalist countries; for whereas war between capitalist countries puts in question only the supremacy of certain capitalist countries over others, war with the USSR must certainly put in question the existence of capitalism itself."
While this superficially makes sense, and conveys Stalin's clearly-understood and determined revolutionary anti-imperialist purpose in letting the Red Army hold the ring for a series of anti-capitalist power seizures throughout East Europe after the expulsion of the German imperialist invaders, - it also reveals that Stalin had stopped thinking about the revolutionary end to imperialist crisis as being the way forward for the planet In the long run, the exact opposite is the outcome, refuting Stalin, as actual world history had already crucially done.
Far from putting in question "only the supremacy of certain capitalist countries over others", war between capitalist countries in 1917 was precisely what first "put in question the existence of capitalism itself" by causing the Bolshevik Revolution. On the other hand, it was precisely Stalin's deluded wish to continue the WWII alliances with the 'good' imperialists, on into the United Nations, which guaranteed that the "war with the USSR" aspect of WWII most certainly did no "put in question the existence of capitalism itself".
Just the opposite. Moscow's delusion that workers states now had a permanent safe stake in the world, accepted by the 'good' imperialists, helped breed an attitude around much of the Third International (as was) that the last thing that was needed was any 'revolutionary adventurism', meaning 'premature' bids for working-class power, which would tend to 'unnecessarily rock the boat of what was seen as a 'good enough' phase of 'stable international peaceful coexistence' which it was imagined would somehow lead to imperialism eventually giving up completely on any general dreams of maintaining active, instant, universal counter-revolutionary responses to block the path forever to any further socialist advances in the world. In this deluded atmosphere, future socialist advances were seen as almost falling into the lap of the international working class in time, practically automatically.
Stalin casual neglecting to mention the utterly crucial importance to mankind for the working class to be ready to take revolutionary power out of the hands of the bourgeoisie upon the failure of yet another capitalist war-disaster, both reflected and cemented this totally anti-Marxist mentality already established.
Stalin gives this deliberately non-revolutionary perspective further authority in commending the objectives of the heavily internationally CP-backed peace movement. Although not denying that to eliminate wars inevitability altogether, imperialism would have to be ‘abolished’ (but avoiding stating specifically how), - Stalin plainly advocates the following:
"The object of the present-day peace movement is to rouse the masses of the people to fight for the preservation of peace and for the prevention of another world war. Consequently, the aim of this movement is not to overthrow capitalism and establish socialism, - it confines itself to the democratic aim of preserving peace. In this respect, the present day peace movement differs from the movement of the time of the First World War for the conversion of the imperialist war into civil war, since the latter movement went further and pursued socialist aims".
As Marx or Lenin might have commented, it is impossible to prevent the capitalist system from going to war. It is not impossible to overthrow the capitalist system. So, surely it would be easier to overthrow capitalism rather than trying to prevent it going to war.
But once again, behind this Stalinist anti-revolutionary Revisionism lurks the assumption that the imperialist countries are steadily collapsing economically anyway, and that sooner or later, they will just fall into the hands of the working class like ripe plums. All that is needed from the international workers movement is to guard against letting the imperialists get away with starting another war.
And this was the essence of the "less difficult" task facing the international communist movement that the Bolsheviks had to face in 1917, as Stalin explained it to the 19th Congress of the CPSU in 1952, again implying that bourgeois imperialist decline and decay would make winning power off them relatively easier. The following passage in 'Economic problems' finally spells out the warped 'theory' behind this anti-revolutionary retreat from Marxist science, which doomed the world movement to an impossible perspective, and condemned it to inevitable ultimate total confusion:-
"The result [of East European socialist-camp cooperation] is a fast pace of industrial development in these countries. It may be confidently said that with this pace of industrial development, it will soon come to pass that these countries will not only be in no need of imports from capitalist countries, but will themselves feel the necessity of finding an outside market for their surplus product;
"But it follows from this that the sphere of exploitation of the world's resources by the major capitalist countries (USA, Britain, France) will not expand but contract; that their opportunities for sale in the world markets will deteriorate, and that their industries will be operating more and more below capacity. That in fact is what is meant by the deepening of the general crisis of the world capitalist system in connection with the disintegration of the world market.
"This is felt by the capitalists themselves for it would be difficult for them not to feel the loss of such markets as the USSR and China. They are trying to offset these difficulties with the ‘Marshall Plan’, the war in Korea, frantic rearmament, and industrial militarisation. But that is very much like a drowning man clutching at a straw.
"This state of affairs has confronted the economists with two questions: "a) Can it be affirmed that the thesis expounded by Stalin [talking about himself in the third person] before the Second World War regarding the relative stability of markets in the period of the general crisis of capitalism is still valid?
"b) Can it be affirmed that the thesis expounded by Lenin in the spring of 1916, namely that in spite of the decay of capitalism,
"on the whole, capitalism is growing far more rapidly than before", - is still valid? "I think that it cannot. In view of the new conditions to which the Second World War has given rise, both these theses must be regarded as having lost their validity".


16. This was the gospel in 1952. Despite the start of the open debunking of Stalin in 1956, and the beginnings of China's doubts about how well Moscow understood the world, the November 1960 statement of the 81 communist parties, including China, continued promoting the universal perspective "to achieve the socialist revolution by peaceful means" on the basis that "the pillars of the capitalist system have become so decayed that the ruling imperialist bourgeoisie in many countries can no longer resist, on its own, the forces of democracy and progress which are gaining in scope and strength ....,The decay of capitalism is particularly marked in the USA, the chief imperialist country ....Never has the conflict between the productive forces and relations of production in the capitalist countries been so acute ...." etc.
In the increasingly bitter exchanges of correspondence between Moscow and Beijing in 1963, the perspective that peaceful coexistence was really all that was required for the socialist struggle to prevail against capitalism was still being peddled:
"Availing themselves of the conditions of peaceful coexistence, the socialist countries are scoring more and more new victories in the economic competition with capitalism. Our adversaries realise that it is difficult for them to count on winning the competition against us. They are unable to keep up with the rapid economic advance of the socialist countries; they are powerless in the face of the appeal that the example of the socialist countries makes to the peoples under the yoke of capitalism .... The Soviet Union has already outpaced the leading capitalist countries of Europe in economic development and has come to take second place in the world. The time is not so distant when it will take first place in the world", etc, etc.
By the measurement of superficial consumer products, this was neither necessary, nor possible at the present stage of the anti-imperialist world struggle. Just surviving, being strong enough for self-defence, and developing powerful social-welfare economies, and living conditions, would have been plenty of achievement enough to see the growing anti-imperialist camp through to success in the long run, (but by revolution, of course, as and when imperialist world market collapse finally set in, in accordance with Marxist economic laws of overproduction crisis.)
But by the late 1980s, the Gorbachevites were still working to the uncorrected Stalinist Revisionist assumptions that capitalism should have been well dead and buried by superior socialist competition by now.
When it did not happen but imperialist exploitation-productivity and innovations continued to soar ahead (on a limited affluent-world basis), the Revisionist bureaucracy mentality went the whole hog and challenged the workings of socialism, not the mistakes the Stalin era revisionism had made in completely corrupting the Marxist scientific understanding of the boom-bust crisis nature of the imperialist economy.
One Gorbachevite, Boris Bolotin at the Institute of World Economics at the USSR Academy of Sciences even turned (in a 1988 Moscow News article) to the difficulties that Stalin's 1952 Economic Problems work was now causing them, - - but in order not to challenge its phoney perspective on imperialism's growth prospects, but to challenge its prescriptions for further development of the Soviet economy! He wrote:
"Stalin's refusal to accept the market in conditions of socialism, and his opinion that the market and a planned economy were incompatible firmly shaped economic thinking not only among a considerable number of our economic managers but also among our scholars....we must not keep quiet about ‘Economic Problems of Socialism’ in the USSR but should analyse and criticise it."
But it was not any tinkering management adjustments to the continuing survival of commodity-money relations for dealing with the ongoing contradictions between collective-farm property and state-farm property which were any kind of serious problem, merely routine evolution of economic organisational forms which had gone on non-stop from 1917 onward. It was the Stalinist-Revisionist worldview of how the imperialist economic crisis outside of the USSR would evolve that was completely disarming and undermining the Soviet workers state.
But to this disastrous aspect of the 1952 'Economic Problems' work, Bolotin makes no reference at all.

17. Western anti-Marxist attempts to ascribe the USSR's spectacular self-destruction to fundamental incurable flaws in how a workers state must inevitably function, have failed quite sensationally.
One of the most exhaustive economics studies was by Ellman (Amsterdam University) and Kontorovich (Haverford College, USA) (1992, Routledge). This investigated every economic statistic and report available (Soviet and western sources) from 1953 onwards, claiming to be able to trace and explain scores of various movements, up and down, in every conceivable indicator, inflation, wages, investment for production goods, investment for consumer goods, GDP growth, military expenditure, shop queueing times, etc, etc.
Much painful unevenness of development is gleefully recorded in this anti-communist book, but it concludes fairly that the USSR was still growing in general economic strength, in line with its development since 1917 more or less, coming up to the Gorbachev political onslaught on how things were running, in 1988-1990, after which a dramatic decline and disintegration set in (the economy of the ex-USSR has collapsed in the subsequent 10 years to less than half its former strength, an economic decline of a major power unknown in the whole of recorded history).
Every plausible and implausible 'explanation' for the sudden deterioration Gorbachev had on his hands is examined: poor planning tying up too much capital investment unproductively; slowdown in supply of new labour from the countryside; increased bureaucratic corruption; natural resources exhaustion; ageing population; environmental destruction; relaxation in social-political discipline; loss of wage incentives; decay of ideological motivation; absolute vastness-of-scale problems for continued central planning and control; loss of intellectual and moral authority for the system; neglect of infrastructure; increased military expenditure; growth rate tending to get smaller each year since 1958; etc, etc, etc.
None of these are dismissed from having played a part in the accumulated problems Gorbachev thought he had to deal with. But they are all rejected, collectively or separately, as remotely offering any explanation of the disintegration.
Repeatedly, and in detail, Ellman and Kontorovich return again and again to the following broad conclusion:
"The Soviet system has been brought down to a considerable extent by the acts of its top executive, starting in 1986 .... On the one hand, the decision (the 'initial revolution from above') was related to objective difficulties confronting the society. On the other hand, the decisions taken reflected very much the ruler’s perception of the situation. Judging by Gorbachev's speeches, it seems to have developed as a trial-and-error response to his perception of the situation he inherited (i.e. failure to compete successfully on the economic front with the capitalist world, widespread drunkenness and corruption, low economic growth, and an official economic doctrine which could not rationalise the policies the leadership wished to pursue).
"The economic collapse has been in part an unintended by-product of the political changes Gorbachev has introduced. These political changes (the withdrawal of the Communist Party from a direct role in the economy; the transfer of substantial powers to the Soviets; de-totalitarianisation; an expansion of the independence of enterprise) - were expected to release the human factor in economic development and thus lead to rapid economic growth. In fact they removed the motive force (pressure from above) which had propelled the Soviet economy in previous decades, without replacing it by an adequate substitute. Hence, as the political reforms became more radical, the economy went into a tail-spin.”
Dumbly tied to Stalin's infantile anti-Marxist perspectives about the historic international class war against the imperialist bourgeoisie being won by the still relatively-backward Soviet workers state getting a greater range of potentially profitable consumer goods onto the market than capitalist world-market exploitation could, - - what this bourgeois economic jargon is describing is Gorbachev's Revisionist destruction of the dictatorship of the proletariat, replacing it with the 'democracy' (bourgeois democracy) of market forces.
These anti-communist Western academics make further admissions:
"The recovery of the Soviet economy from its 1979-82 decline showed that the traditional economic system was viable .... The success of the Andropov and early-Gorbachev policies pointed to a possible strategy of development based on utilizing the strengths of the existing system. Such a strategy would have been based on the comprehensive and consistent enforcement of discipline, but not limited to it. It would also have sought to improve the organisation, planning and management of the command system on its own terms, rather than trying to graft market-inspired elements on to the command structure, as so many reforms have done. For a time it looked as if Gorbachev would adopt precisely this strategy. Some innovations of a command type (such as the 'Novopolotsk systems' of tight control over labour) were introduced on a small scale. Command methods were deployed to accelerate technological change. The 12th 5year plan (1986-90) embodied the recommendations of the advocates of increased investment. What would have happened if this strategy had actually been adhered to?
"Increased pressure on managers alone significantly improved performance in the railroad sector, with its worn-out capital stock and extremely high level of capacity utilization. It would have brought even larger gains in other sectors, where the capital stock was in better shape and capacity reserves higher. If tighter discipline had been supported by streamlining and rationalizing the command system, and by the injection of new investment, the recovery of 1983-86 might have been prolonged into the 1990s. The traditional model of socialist planning was by no means doomed to extinction in the late 1980s. Its eventual ruin was the result of conscious choice on the part of the political leadership."
After detailing how some of Gorbachev's attempted command strategy policies in fact proved counter-productive due to their clumsy, crude implementation (anti-alcohol campaign, accelerated machine-building investment, restrictions on the black economy, etc), this bourgeois economic science contentedly concludes:
"The command strategy, however, was not adhered to. After the 27th party congress in 1986, Gorbachev started the policies that undermined discipline. One reason for abandoning the command strategy was dissatisfaction with its results. In 1983-86 the net material product grew, according to official statistics, at an annual average rate of 2.8 per cent. This was too low for a lagging country which was trying to catch up. Soviet aspirations were expressed in Gorbachev's speeches of 1985 as catching up with the world's leading powers in terms of high technology, and as being within the targets of the 12th 5-year plan, which envisaged acceleration of growth. Apparently, Soviet politicians perceived (correctly in our view) that the traditional economic system, however strengthened, was not up to this task ....
"Whether or not the economic situation in the USSR in the early 1980s was a 'crisis' depended not only on the economic performance of the USSR considered in isolation but on the economic performance of the USSR relative to that of the USA. The 1980s was a decade in which Soviet economic policy came under the influence of the international demonstration effect of the worldwide successes of capitalism. In North America, western Europe and East Asia, high and rising living standards and rapid technical progress (both the introduction of new products and the rapid resource-saving in production) were very visible and had a great influence on Soviet policy formation ....the OECD countries had achieved much higher living standards than the USSR. Furthermore, judging by the rhetoric of Reagan and Thatcher, the market economies were full of self-confidence in the superiority of their system. The USSR had long been engaged in the 'competition between the two systems', and it was important for the legitimation of Soviet power to score successes in this competition. The complete failure of the USSR to catch up with the advanced countries in living standards undermined the legitimacy of the regime. This was particularly marked among the elite who travelled abroad and/or were able to obtain imported consumer goods."

18. In reality, of course, it was no shame at all for the Soviet workers state, struggling in a reasonably honest and altruistic manner alongside Cuba, Korea, China, Vietnam, East Europe, and much of the Third World to try to contain world imperialist domination, - to have not yet remotely caught up with top bourgeois living standards at the apex of the longest and vastest international capitalist trade boom in history, - - especially when the USSR was once again at that precise moment (as Ellman and Kontorovich admit) having to allocate more precious resources to military needs than ever because of the threatened US Star Wars programme.
But Stalin's anti-revolutionary Revisionist complacency, with its utterly naive perspectives on imperialist development, not seeing the boom but equally now ignorantly unaware that the most massive bust and slump in history must also subsequently follow, - still totally ruled the Moscow bureaucracy. And in the sick, sad aim of wishing to 'catch up' with what the imperialist system of vicious Third World exploitation could achieve in terms of shallow profiteering consumerism and trade-war market manipulation and domination, this degenerate Revisionism then took the knife to the workers state itself, and to all connection with the science and aims of Marxism-Leninism.
In the terms of this bourgeois economists account:
"The leadership itself removed (from the building it was trying to rebuild) crucial load-bearing 'bricks' on which the stability of the structure rested. As a result, the whole structure came crashing down. The three key 'bricks' which Gorbachev removed, or weakened, were: the central bureaucratic apparatus; the official ideology; and the active role of the party in the economy." For example, the Western professors mention the 28th party congress in June 1990:
"Among other things, the congress criticized the endless administrative reorganizations affecting agriculture: 'In recent years, the agro-industrial complex has been continuously reorganized. This has destroyed the links and inter-relationships between the different parts of the agro-industrial complex, led to the loss of many highly qualified specialists, and weakened technological, productive and state discipline. This was the view of most of the agricultural delegates. At the section on agrarian policy of the congress, practically all the speakers proposed re-establishing the Ministry of Agriculture. The resolution of the congress on agricultural policy specifically called for the restoration of the Ministries of Agriculture and Agricultural Machinery (abolished by Gorbachev in 1985), and the re-establishment of a supply and service system specifically for agriculture. These demands were not conceded, partly because that would have been an admission that Gorbachev's earlier reorganizations had been harmful, and partly because they came from people, opposed to Gorbachev's partial decollectivization policy ."
Scores more examples are given of specific disastrous economic effects of the perestroika revolution where the 'liberalization' delusion just led to a 'chaotic breakdown' in management discipline. Summarising it all as an effective destruction of the USSR’s state ideology, this anti-communist observation continues:
"By removing the party from its role in the economy, Gorbachev removed an essential feature of the smooth running of the traditional model. In the traditional model, the party committees at all levels played an essential role. They cut through the maze of conflicting bureaucratic bodies and enforced the priorities of the centre. Once they withdrew from the economy however, factories, cities, regions, and republics were free to do what they thought best, regardless of the documents emanating from the centre. Furthermore, the process of de-totalitarianisation, by transferring much power to the Soviets and permitting the emergence of independent social organizations, led to destabilizing economic consequences, varying from the introduction of customs posts round republics, and depriving non-residents of certain cities of the possibility of shopping there, - to the closing of ecologically harmful factories. It also led to the coming to power of anti-communists in parts of the country (Moscow, Leningrad, RSFSR, Baltic republics, Georgia). These anti-communists were prepared to go ahead with reforms regardless of their short-run negative effects .... one of the striking effects of the disintegration of Marxism-Leninism was that it was partially replaced by religion and nationalism. In a multi-national and multi-religious state .the disintegration of Marxism-Leninism and the revival of religion and nationalism automatically led to a weakening of the USSR as a unitary state. Replacing an ideology which was uniform throughout the country by ones which divided it on ethnic lines was a recipe for conflicts... and had serious economic costs."
Numerous examples are appended.

19. So finally, a Stalinist counter-revolution really did take place and destroyed the workers state, building socialism. But not until 1990-91,on average, 60 years after the first generations of fake-'lefts' started putting their boot into the Soviet Union for a variety of bogus 'reasons'.
These same petty bourgeois still argue: 'So it collapsed eventually anyway. So what?'
Utterly irrelevant are all the smart-arse comments about 'Call that socialism? Life in a capitalist prison would be preferable?. Such philistine Western ignorance will count for as little in the long run as any other mentality originating in the colonial-racist complacency of monopoly-imperialist affluence.
It is the survival of the West's world-exploitation for so long that is the real historical anomaly, not the outstanding achievements of the world's first workers state, lasting 70 years despite starting in the most difficult and backward country imaginable, and despite being three times dismembered or devastated by war since October 1917; threatened or sabotaged by further imperialist intervention continuously; economically blockaded, subverted, and blackmailed throughout; and vilified, provoked, lied about, and distorted by non-stop hostile propaganda and hatred between states, nothing the like of which had ever been seen in all history.
And that anti-communist Cold War poison atmosphere is still polluting the world as dominantly today as ever it was e.g. Zimbabwe has just been given the full treatment for refusing to toe the West's monopoly capital-subservient line. Yugoslavia, Iraq, China, Korea, etc, got it before. The IRA and Sinn Fein got it in Britain. Revolutionaries in Colombia, Palestine, and Mexico are being lined up for it next. Or possibly China again, or Vietnam, - wherever panicking imperialism sees the next threat looming to Western prestige as 'the best way to run the world, politically or economically'.
Any kind of revolt (against Western domination) seen as 'successful', whatever it is, is regarded as a deadly threat because of how it might give billions of others in the Third World the idea of revolution against Western control as well.
It is on these basic class-war questions that Soviet communism is not dead at all. For 700 years, the bourgeoisie has dominated the world and every sphere of human achievement with its 'capitalist democracy' way of doing things. But it could never stop ending up as monopoly-imperialist domination-exploitation of the rest of mankind through war-conquest and the market.
The Soviet workers state was the first successful resistance to that domination, making miraculous achievements without a bourgeois capitalist class in sight, let alone in total control (as is the condition of the 'free world'). No wonder it was, and is still, so hated by every scrap of ruling-class and petty-bourgeois propaganda.

20. But if it failed in the end, why does it matter? Why would any part of the world want to re-tread the Soviet Union ’s route?
The vast majority of impoverished Third World mankind still would. And they are going to want to emulate Soviet workers-state achievements even more urgently, before much longer, because of the fundamental reality of world development which every wretched renegade from the dictatorship of the proletariat has always ignored (Revisionist, Trotskyists, or Reformist), - the basic Marxist science that no boom period in imperialist world trade can last forever.
A crisis of 'surplus' capital must cause a Crash sooner or later. All-out trade war and shooting war will inevitably follow. Relatively speaking, the world will be back to 1917 once again.
Billions of ordinary people around the globe, suffering capitalist war horrors as well as capitalist slump horrors once more, after stifling endlessly under capitalist exploitation anyway, will not put up with it. Communist revolution will yet again be the only future for mankind.

21, 'Left' electoralism, without a genuine revolutionary content, will soon have the Trots, etc, as hated as the rest of bourgeois political opportunism in Parliament. Only renewed parties of Leninist revolutionary theory will capture long-term working-class allegiance now, and he able to turn it into successful revolutionary struggle. There is no way forward for mankind but via the whole works of Leninist science.
Tactical compromises can be endlessly flexible over broad-front possibilities for mass party-building activities, but such has been the corruption of workers-movement thinking by 80 years of Cold War anti-communism and by recent decades of reformist single issue political correctness pursuing extreme individualist philosophies (feminism, black nationalism, homosexualism, etc) that any restriction on Marxist-Leninist polemics can only lead back again to total chaos fairly soon.
'Left' electoralism may briefly be turned to (out of working-class habit in this country). But while it may temporarily encourage Trot opportunism, it will not be able to prevent electoralism itself from being held in ever-increasing contempt by the working class.
Regional parliamentary nationalism will prove just as sterile. The working class in Britain has far more culture in common than the average proletarian does with the average bourgeois in any part of the land, England, Scotland, or Wales, - and on far more crucial questions in view of the coming crisis of capitalism.
When international imperialist counter-revolution is on the rampage everywhere, the working class of Britain will stand far better chance of defending any revolutionary gains made if united rather than if atomised into a separate England, Scotland, and Wales. Blair's devolution concessions are strictly a boom-time gimmick to gain electoral popularity, saddling the working class with yet another layer of bloated bureaucracy to support, and wrapping yet more confusing parliamentary cover-ups around the still continuing basic capitalist system, which will remain as dominated by uncontrollable monopoly-imperialist interests as ever, and which will carry on the class-divided exploitation of the unpropertied and non-business owning proletariat the same as before. Come the slump, and the contempt for this petty bourgeois nationalist plaything will know no bounds.
The defeat of British colonial-imperialism by the heroic Irish national-liberation struggle truly reflects the world crisis of the monopoly-capitalist system facing insuperable odds from the Third World billions in revolt. Even when outnumbered, the dispossessed (as in Occupied Palestine and the Occupied Zone of Ireland) can learn how to fight with far more determination and skill and political superiority to bring colonial annexationism to its knees.
Every significant setback for world imperialism, large or small, will serve to inspire the revolt everywhere else. Marx’s inescapable law of capital over-production-crisis also implies that the vaster and longer the boom that artificial credit creation has constructed (in effect through huge dollar hand-outs to every anti-communist crook and chancer on earth since 1945), - the more devastating will be the wipe-out of 'surplus' capital once the rate of profit collapses and confidence shatters everywhere.
The world is in for the most catastrophic crash and slump in history. All-out war for economic survival is inevitable. Suddenly, the mass involvement in the slow steady but reliable progress of the Soviet economy, however muddled and bureaucratic, will seem like paradise.
And how are workers states supposed to be able to function anyway? Like the disorganised chaos of the average trade union or 'left' party in Britain? The only model in history of any sort of workers state is the Soviet one, followed by a couple of dozen allies and imitators. How is the underclass in Britain expected to learn statecraft for building towards an egalitarian society in the future? With difficulty, and by massive hard work and discipline, under a mass-party-led proletarian dictatorship, exactly as the Leninists did it.
The only reason for refusing to rebuild a Leninist movement in open polemical struggle is because petty-bourgeois complacency, philistinism, and cynicism still does not believe that capitalism is about to collapse, or sees nothing wrong with its total cultural degeneracy anyway.
But only three years ago, the SWP said Blairism had a future worth voting for. Look at its sick collapsing mess now, dithering whether to crawl into the German imperialist camp, or deeper into the American laager, - eventual humiliation and war in either direction. By its incurable nature, capitalism is on a course of increasing frustration, alienation, and divisiveness. Only Marxist-Leninist science offers a sane constructive way forward for human community. Build the EPSR.

22. Cynicism has most difficulty getting its brain round how easily derisible unsophisticated Soviet bureaucracy made itself, in its sick cult-of-the-individual days; in its farcical self-liquidation which no one fought hard to prevent; in its clumsy pollution; in some of its crude simplistic brutalities for political control or to exert social/cultural pressure. How could part of the future frequently look so embarrassingly naive and barbaric, and end up falling flat on its face anyway?
The first point is to forget all comparison with life in the West. Compare Soviet workers-state achievements with the hell-hole of Tsarist Russia or even with the hellhole since 1990 in spite of massive Western aid and investment flooding in to try to make capitalism look good.
The only comparison for Soviet achievements would be with some other vast backward semi-Asiatic hell hole like Tsarist Russia, but none exist. A better comparison on whether workers state should be seen as part of the world's past or crucial to its future would have been seen in likening China's progress to India's from similar starting points and with similar problems, which China won hands down, but then partly confused the picture by borrowing some capitalist methods of development for its own use.
A clear sight of Cuba's outstanding superiority to anywhere else in Latin America in eradicating illiteracy, ill-health, grinding slum-poverty, and much else of traditional backwardness of the region, has been deliberately clouded by US imperialist might bending every sinew to subvert, undermine, blockade, poison, terrorise, vilify, etc to keep everything on edge and prevent clear thinking about Cuba's remarkable achievements.
By accident or design ,Vietnam’s progress has been obscured by the surrounding 'miracle' economies of the South East Asian 'tigers'. But the first collapse later, and Indonesia is up in flames of revolt. When the world crash comes, how will the comparison seem then? And what crucially matters is how it is seen locally, not from Islington.
China's potential for revolutionary workers-state regional leadership is far from over yet. As was always going to be the case, the fate of the world imperialist trade-war crisis will be decisive in what future the Third World chooses for itself, - throughout Latin America, Africa, Asia, and the Middle East. And once revolutionary workers-states become the dominant pattern on earth, then the Western imperialist 'free market' racket of exploiting the whole planet for its own benefit really will find its days numbered. A much healthier, more rational world is in view. Build Marxism-Leninism.

farenheit 911
30th March 2007, 20:31
I think Stalin had good idea's, but he just used the wrong way of handling with them. He hadn't the 'voice' to talk to the people like Lenin did.
He had something like the Nazi's. I know it sounds cruel, but in some way's i certainly don't agree with him. There are some cases wich Stalin was accused of, they found actualy.

sexyguy
30th March 2007, 20:41
Stalin was a brilliant Bolshevik leader, but he was wrong about capitalism declining when in fact it was on the point of its greatest (inflationary) boom in all history.

gilhyle
30th March 2007, 21:50
Yes I think Stalin was brilliant, but not a brilliant bolshevik, rather he was brilliant like Cesare Borgia.....and as the Americans tried to do to Vietnam during the war there, Stalin was willing to do to the revolution: destroy it, to preserve it.

Forward Union
30th March 2007, 22:16
I think stalin was a total anti-working class shit that finished of Lenin's' work of crushing the proletarian power structure (soviets) giving industrial decision making power to foreign capitalist advisors, and military control to ex Tsarists.

Fortunately for Stalin, most of the communist movement had been massacred (and legislated against) by Trotsky's Red army (the Kronstadt Sailors, the Black Banner, and The makhnovists) But he still found it in his heart to ally with Hitler and wreck the antifascist war in spain, by provoking his forces to agitate against the POUM and the CNT.

as communists we want power for the working class, not some popus fuck with a red star on his silk shirt.

Fuck stalin.

sexyguy
30th March 2007, 22:32
Anachism: Lost it philosophically, politically, militarily and now, well, just lost it.

Karl Marx's Camel
30th March 2007, 22:33
Originally posted by Love [email protected] 30, 2007 09:16 pm
I think stalin was a total anti-working class shit that finished of Lenin's' work of crushing the proletarian power structure (soviets) giving industrial decision making power to foreign capitalist advisors, and military control to ex Tsarists.

Fortunately for Stalin, most of the communist movement had been massacred (and legislated against) by Trotsky's Red army (the Kronstadt Sailors, the Black Banner, and The makhnovists) But he still found it in his heart to ally with Hitler and wreck the antifascist war in spain, by provoking his forces to agitate against the POUM and the CNT.

as communists we want power for the working class, not some popus fuck with a red star on his silk shirt.

Fuck stalin.
I agree.

Not only that but the USSR practically robbed the Republic of its vast gold reserves.

PRC-UTE
30th March 2007, 22:38
Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 08:50 pm
Yes I think Stalin was brilliant, but not a brilliant bolshevik, rather he was brilliant like Cesare Borgia.....and as the Americans tried to do to Vietnam during the war there, Stalin was willing to do to the revolution: destroy it, to preserve it.
I've had the same thought, that one of Stalin's signature activities was destroying the revolution to save it... scorched earth socialism!

sexyguy
30th March 2007, 22:39
Is anyone going to talk about Stalin getting the economics wrong?

Rawthentic
30th March 2007, 23:33
I think stalin was a total anti-working class shit that finished of Lenin's' work of crushing the proletarian power structure (soviets) giving industrial decision making power to foreign capitalist advisors, and military control to ex Tsarists.
LU, all that I ask is that you analyze the material conditions in Russia at the time, as the focus of how and why the working class' power was stripped. I also think that Stalin is a shit who should have been murdered.

And it's not due to one man LU. Lenin very well understood how the Bolshevik Party blurred the line between party and state, but it was an almost inevitable process due to such acute problems in Russian society at the time.

Intelligitimate
31st March 2007, 02:20
The comments following the OP are stupid as hell.

The idea that Stalin destroyed the Soviet Union by writing a paper in which he advocated the idea that socialism would beat capitalism economically is ludicrous. First of all, only with hindsight are you even able to say he is wrong, because the USSR was vastly outperforming the entire capitalist world economically. The USSR's economy literally doubled in size while the entire capitalist world was going through the worst depression ever seen at the time. Nor does this imply Stalin was "anti-revolutionary" in that he only advocated the peaceful overthrow of capitalism, which is not what Stalin says at all, and certainly not what history shows of his views.

That said, I am inclined to accept that any sort of ideas about collaborating with the 'liberal bourgeoisie' were a mistake, but not "anti-revolutionary". No one says Stalin didn't make mistakes, but your tone is unjustified.

Okocim
31st March 2007, 02:33
Originally posted by [email protected] 31, 2007 02:20 am
The comments following the OP are stupid as hell.

The idea that Stalin destroyed the Soviet Union by writing a paper in which he advocated the idea that socialism would beat capitalism economically is ludicrous. First of all, only with hindsight are you even able to say he is wrong, because the USSR was vastly outperforming the entire capitalist world economically. The USSR's economy literally doubled in size while the entire capitalist world was going through the worst depression ever seen at the time. Nor does this imply Stalin was "anti-revolutionary" in that he only advocated the peaceful overthrow of capitalism, which is not what Stalin says at all, and certainly not what history shows of his views.

That said, I am inclined to accept that any sort of ideas about collaborating with the 'liberal bourgeoisie' were a mistake, but not "anti-revolutionary". No one says Stalin didn't make mistakes, but your tone is unjustified.
The USSR's system was absolutely appalling.

The relation between factories was absurd, the production of certain products was absurd, one crisis could cause massive massive problems (armenian earthquake), it was slow, outdated, inefficient, factories regularly had to be helped out by the government. It was a mess, it was not "vastly outperforming" the west. it produced poor quality products, a high rate of products which were of insufficient quality to be sold, it didn't stand a chance.

Intelligitimate
31st March 2007, 02:40
Originally posted by Okocim+March 31, 2007 01:33 am--> (Okocim @ March 31, 2007 01:33 am)
[email protected] 31, 2007 02:20 am
The comments following the OP are stupid as hell.

The idea that Stalin destroyed the Soviet Union by writing a paper in which he advocated the idea that socialism would beat capitalism economically is ludicrous. First of all, only with hindsight are you even able to say he is wrong, because the USSR was vastly outperforming the entire capitalist world economically. The USSR's economy literally doubled in size while the entire capitalist world was going through the worst depression ever seen at the time. Nor does this imply Stalin was "anti-revolutionary" in that he only advocated the peaceful overthrow of capitalism, which is not what Stalin says at all, and certainly not what history shows of his views.

That said, I am inclined to accept that any sort of ideas about collaborating with the 'liberal bourgeoisie' were a mistake, but not "anti-revolutionary". No one says Stalin didn't make mistakes, but your tone is unjustified.
The USSR's system was absolutely appalling.

The relation between factories was absurd, the production of certain products was absurd, one crisis could cause massive massive problems (armenian earthquake), it was slow, outdated, inefficient, factories regularly had to be helped out by the government. It was a mess, it was not "vastly outperforming" the west. it produced poor quality products, a high rate of products which were of insufficient quality to be sold, it didn't stand a chance. [/b]
What I said can be looked up qutie easily. I suggest Davies' Soviet Economic Developement: From Lenin to Khrushchev to back up what I said about the Soviet economy doubling in size (by Western estimates) from the period 1928-1940, while the entire capitalist world was going through the Great Depression. The US only recovered to its 1928 level by 1940, in contrast.

What you said, on the other hand, appears to have been pulled straight from you ass, and nowhere else.

black magick hustla
31st March 2007, 03:31
The USSR was developing at a speed never seen in human history when the western world was in depression.

however, whether this was socialism, and whether this was true workers' control is another question, and depends on your conception of what workers' control IS. Stalinist ussr developed welfare systems, working class fitness centers, made surveys to know about the status of workers....

however, that wasn't worker's control at all.

sexyguy
31st March 2007, 05:03
The comments following the OP are stupid as hell.

The idea that Stalin destroyed the Soviet Union by writing a paper in which he advocated the idea that socialism would beat capitalism economically is ludicrous. First of all, only with hindsight are you even able to say he is wrong, because the USSR was vastly outperforming the entire capitalist world economically. The USSR's economy literally doubled in size while the entire capitalist world was going through the worst depression ever seen at the time. Nor does this imply Stalin was "anti-revolutionary" in that he only advocated the peaceful overthrow of capitalism, which is not what Stalin says at all, and certainly not what history shows of his views.


First of all, only with hindsight are you even able to say he is wrong, ...” So tell us, what else other than “hindsight” are we supposed to use when examining this ‘history’?


The USSR's economy literally doubled in size while the entire capitalist world was going through the worst depression ever seen at the time.”

Again, the very idea that socialist development was in ‘competition’ with capitalism is what is wrong in all this. It is exactly this daft idea that keeps ‘left’ anticommunism fuelled-up, endlessly making comparisons between two entirely different ‘life forms’ and in fact making exactly the same mistake that Stalin made. It is this un-Marxist ‘comparison’ that is at the root of the problem.

Stalin quoting Lenin, quite blatantly revises Lenin's Marxist warning. "Can it be affirmed that the thesis expounded by Lenin in the spring of 1916, namely “that in spite of the decay of capitalism, "on the whole, capitalism is growing far more rapidly than before",- is still valid? "I think that it cannot. In view of the new conditions to which the Second World War has given rise, both these theses must be regarded as having lost their validity". J.V.Stalin HE WAS WRONG, wasn‘t he?! Capitalism did expand exactly in the way Lenin said it would (without hindsight) and not decline as Stalin said it would. (see OP for fuller explanation.)

Axel1917
31st March 2007, 05:05
Originally posted by Okocim+March 31, 2007 01:33 am--> (Okocim @ March 31, 2007 01:33 am)
[email protected] 31, 2007 02:20 am
The comments following the OP are stupid as hell.

The idea that Stalin destroyed the Soviet Union by writing a paper in which he advocated the idea that socialism would beat capitalism economically is ludicrous. First of all, only with hindsight are you even able to say he is wrong, because the USSR was vastly outperforming the entire capitalist world economically. The USSR's economy literally doubled in size while the entire capitalist world was going through the worst depression ever seen at the time. Nor does this imply Stalin was "anti-revolutionary" in that he only advocated the peaceful overthrow of capitalism, which is not what Stalin says at all, and certainly not what history shows of his views.

That said, I am inclined to accept that any sort of ideas about collaborating with the 'liberal bourgeoisie' were a mistake, but not "anti-revolutionary". No one says Stalin didn't make mistakes, but your tone is unjustified.
The USSR's system was absolutely appalling.

The relation between factories was absurd, the production of certain products was absurd, one crisis could cause massive massive problems (armenian earthquake), it was slow, outdated, inefficient, factories regularly had to be helped out by the government. It was a mess, it was not "vastly outperforming" the west. it produced poor quality products, a high rate of products which were of insufficient quality to be sold, it didn't stand a chance. [/b]
And Russian capitalism has done better than this?

The USSR did prove the superiority of a planned economy (if bureaucrats with inefficentcy, lack of correlation with workers, etc. managed to make Russia so powerful, then workers' democracy could do much better.).

The whole thing about a lot of people not recognizing the postwar boom, even when it was happening, is simply apalling. Virtually all of the Fourth International got this wrong, and not correcting this mistake, they continued to stumble from one mistake to the next. These mistakes still exist in all kinds of so-called Trotskyist organizations that have literally no real links with the working class.

sexyguy
31st March 2007, 05:51
The whole thing about a lot of people not recognizing the postwar boom, even when it was happening, is simply apalling. Virtually all of the Fourth International got this wrong, and not correcting this mistake, they continued to stumble from one mistake to the next. These mistakes still exist in all kinds of so-called Trotskyist organizations that have literally no real links with the working class. We have to start with the ‘world’ as it is changing, not start from an ‘ideal' of how we would like it to be and as Lenin said in 1916: "on the whole, capitalism is growing far more rapidly than before",-LENIN WAS 100% CORRECT, STALIN AND TROTSKY WERE 100%WRONG!
Anti-communism has been dining out on these mistakes which have to be faced up-to.

Intelligitimate
31st March 2007, 14:16
So tell us, what else other than “hindsight” are we supposed to use when examining this ‘history’?

When judging something someone said about the future, you should take into account what they knew and experienced. The tone of your essay makes it sound as if Stalin did something incredibly terrible by predicting socialism would simply outperform capitalism. You also seem to fall into the standard anti-communist idea that Stalin personally controlled everything that went on in the USSR (even in death), as if it was because of this essay that Khrushchev and the rest of the party after Stalin supported Detente with the West, which is absurd.


Again, the very idea that socialist development was in ‘competition’ with capitalism is what is wrong in all this. It is exactly this daft idea that keeps ‘left’ anticommunism fuelled-up, endlessly making comparisons between two entirely different ‘life forms’ and in fact making exactly the same mistake that Stalin made. It is this un-Marxist ‘comparison’ that is at the root of the problem.

I don't see anything un-Marxist about it. The socialist economies consistently outperformed the vast majority of capitalist countries, which are thirdworld shitholes. They were only outperformed in trivial ways (like non-essential consumer goods) by the advanced imperialist welfare capitalist countries. Making this observation is not un-Marxist.


Stalin quoting Lenin, quite blatantly revises Lenin's Marxist warning. "Can it be affirmed that the thesis expounded by Lenin in the spring of 1916, namely “that in spite of the decay of capitalism, "on the whole, capitalism is growing far more rapidly than before",- is still valid? "I think that it cannot. In view of the new conditions to which the Second World War has given rise, both these theses must be regarded as having lost their validity". J.V.Stalin HE WAS WRONG, wasn‘t he?! Capitalism did expand exactly in the way Lenin said it would (without hindsight) and not decline as Stalin said it would. (see OP for fuller explanation.)

So? No one, not even Marx himself, should have everything they say taken as the complete truth. Marx also predicted the complete breakdown of capitalism due to the rising organic composition of capital. Eventually this contradiction would destroy capitalism itself, and this idea was certainly not unknown to Stalin. It is quite easy to imagine a scenario where Stalin's prediction would come true due to a very high organic composition of capital competing with a socialist economy that had no such contradiction.

I think in a lot of ways your essay is correct, but the anti-Stalinism hurts your essay.

sexyguy
31st March 2007, 19:14
Intelligitimate,


“When judging something someone said about the future, you should take into account what they knew and experienced. The tone of your essay makes it sound as if Stalin did something incredibly terrible by predicting socialism would simply outperform capitalism.”The whole point of using Stalin’s quote, "Can it be affirmed that the thesis expounded by Lenin in the spring of 1916, namely that in spite of the decay of capitalism, "on the whole, capitalism is growing far more rapidly than before",- is still valid? - I think that it cannot. In view of the new conditions to which the Second World War has given rise, both these theses must be regarded as having lost their validity". J.V.Stalin, is to demonstrate that Lenin warned the party and the international working class IN ADVANCE that “... capitalism is growing far more rapidly than before” and Stalin did make an “incredibly terrible” blunder in WRONGLY “predicting socialism would simply outperform capitalism.” as you say.


“You also seem to fall into the standard anti-communist idea that Stalin personally controlled everything that went on in the USSR (even in death), as if it was because of this essay that Khrushchev and the rest of the party after Stalin supported Detente with the West, which is absurd.”
This is not about Stalin’s personality, however, in 1952 after repulsing and smashing German imperialism’s onslaught, Stalin’s authority in the world communist movement and the international working class as a whole was enormous. ( “Jo For King” was a slogan in Britain) And yes, it was because of this erroneous thinking in the party leadership “that Khrushchev and the rest of the party after Stalin supported Detente with the West,” which is not “absurd” because it wasn’t JUST Khrushchev was it? This “ Detente” as you describe it was the dominant thinking in the party formerly and decisively lead and influenced by Stalin (and others if you like) as ’Economic Problems of Socialism’ (under the authorship of Stalin) clearly demonstrates.

“I don't see anything un-Marxist about it. The socialist economies consistently outperformed the vast majority of capitalist countries, which are thirdworld shitholes. They were only outperformed in trivial ways (like non-essential consumer goods) by the advanced imperialist welfare capitalist countries. Making this observation is not un-Marxist“.
Yes, ”The socialist economies consistently outperformed the vast majority of capitalist countries,” and they did it under siege conditions that would make all anti-soviet detractors break into a cold sweat just thinking about it and communists should credit Stalin for his role in what amounts to the closest thing to an ‘economic miracle’ in all human history. It is un-Marxist to make a ‘comparison’ with capitalism (among other things) that misled the Moscow bureaucracy into foolish and needless boasts that Soviet consumer products would soon outperform, in terms of quality and productivity, the slickest and most cost-effective output of Western imperialism (which had the whole world to exploit at often slave-labour rates and under direct colonial tyranny)-- -- a pointless and ridiculous claim when socialism's target was pointing in the entirely opposite direction of trying to equalize living standards and investment levels right across the socialist camp from Cuba to North Korea and Vietnam. There was no way that factory shirts e.g. from Uzbekistan with its universal free health service, secondary and higher education, widespread cultural facilities, etc, could ever be turned out with so much labour-content so cheaply as shirts churned out from Bangkok factories by child-labour literally sold into bondage by an illiterate peasantry and some times literally chained to the looms and sewing machines for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week.
But this daftest way possible of trying to 'compare' the building of socialism with the cut-throat competitiveness of the monopoly-imperialist free market was pursued relentlessly by the Revisionist Moscow bureaucracy to the point where Gorbachev eventually concluded that free-market capitalism was the better way to run society altogether, and set about deliberately dismantling the dictatorship of the proletariat.

So? No one, not even Marx himself, should have everything they say taken as the complete truth. Marx also predicted the complete breakdown of capitalism due to the rising organic composition of capital. Eventually this contradiction would destroy capitalism itself, and this idea was certainly not unknown to Stalin.” Exactly comrade! It is precisely because this Marxist understanding was “not unknown to Stalin.” that he should have known better.
And no advantage as the ‘super exploitation’ of the world’s masses still under colonial imperialist domination either!



“I think in a lot of ways your essay is correct, but the anti-Stalinism hurts your essay.”

No communist revolutionary under-estimates the respect and affection that Stalin is held in by millions around the world, and with good reason. BUT it was during his leadership that the flawed revisionist economic understanding and ‘peace’ diplomacy was communicated around the international communist parties with lasting and disastrous reformist consequences including the ‘Parliamentary Road to Socialism’ of the old CPGB (British communist party) which was sanctioned by the Soviet leadership!

gilhyle
3rd April 2007, 13:10
It wasnt necessarily wrong to want to outperform capitalism, the issue lay in what that meant for the Stalinist clique. They relied on it as their key strategy and they were willing to sacrifice too much to achieve it.

What characterised Stalin in economic policy (and here Mao emulated him, only more intensely) was the belief that physical violence was a sustainable element of economic policy. He built his 'dictatorship' on this - specifically on the continued use of forced expropriations to feed the cities in 1929, 1930, 1931 (if I remember my dates correctly) The reason why the party had to be purged was because it was a transmission belt from from society into the echelons of power feeding back the consequences of the violence imposed by Stalin's clique on the society. Forced collectivisation and the use of slave labour for major industrial projects were excessive interventions on which economic growth came to rely, but which were incompatable with the existence of a substantial ruling party.

It is ironic that it was Trotsky who had evinced an initial sympathy for the continuation of war communism, but it was Stalin who actually retained the key features of it.

The Author
3rd April 2007, 15:56
Originally posted by [email protected] April 3, 2007, 08:10 am
It wasnt necessarily wrong to want to outperform capitalism, the issue lay in what that meant for the Stalinist clique. They relied on it as their key strategy and they were willing to sacrifice too much to achieve it.

I think, in referring to the situation after World War II, people seem to forget that the U.S.S.R. had to rebuild its entire economy, which for the most part was destroyed during the Nazi invasion. Meanwhile, the productive forces of the U.S. were essentially untouched and clearly, U.S. imperialism had this advantage along with the exploitation of several of the former European colonies. The U.S.S.R. did not (until the Khrushchevite period) exploit other countries for resources and had to rebuild their economy on their own. Some will claim that the U.S.S.R. stole machinery from Eastern Europe and China, but then they forget that they also gave same said countries heavy machinery in return. The point of the economic policy of the U.S.S.R. and the nascent socialist camp was to have an integrated economy that was completely independent of the markets, that did not depend on Western markets. Avoiding dependence on Western markets was essential. The revisionists, however, did the complete opposite. The Soviets no longer helped other socialist and people's democratic countries build heavy industry and advance the construction of socialism; now they only gave light industry and created the conditions for the other socialist and people's democratic countries to become dependent on them, thus creating contradictions and problems.


What characterised Stalin in economic policy (and here Mao emulated him, only more intensely) was the belief that physical violence was a sustainable element of economic policy. He built his 'dictatorship' on this - specifically on the continued use of forced expropriations to feed the cities in 1929, 1930, 1931 (if I remember my dates correctly) The reason why the party had to be purged was because it was a transmission belt from from society into the echelons of power feeding back the consequences of the violence imposed by Stalin's clique on the society. Forced collectivisation and the use of slave labour for major industrial projects were excessive interventions on which economic growth came to rely, but which were incompatable with the existence of a substantial ruling party.

It is ironic that it was Trotsky who had evinced an initial sympathy for the continuation of war communism, but it was Stalin who actually retained the key features of it.

"Were we not late in repealing the surplus-appropriation system? Did it not require such developments as Kronstadt and Tambov to make us understand that it was no longer possible to retain the conditions of War Communism? Did not Ilyich himself admit that on this front we had sustained a more serious defeat than any we had suffered at the Denikin or Kolchak fronts?" -- J.V. Stalin, Works

"For, either one thing or the other: either we criticise ourselves and allow non-Party people to criticise our work—in which case we can hope that our work in the countryside will make progress; or we do not permit such criticism—in which case we shall be criticised by events like the revolts in Kronstadt, in Tambov and in Georgia. I think that criticism of the first kind is preferable to criticism of the second kind. That is why we must not fear criticism, whether from Party people or, especially, from non-Party people." -- J.V. Stalin, Works

"Bear in mind that under the new conditions, under NEP, another Tambov, or another Kronstadt, is by no means precluded. The Transcaucasian, the Georgian revolt was a grave warning. Such revolts are possible in future if we do not
learn to expose and eliminate our evils, if we go on making it appear outwardly that all is well.

That is why I think that what we must speak of here is not the shortcomings or exaggerations of individual writers who expose the defects in our work, but their
merits in doing so." -- J.V. Stalin, Works

"The issue is as follows: either we, the entire Party, allow the non-Party peasants and workers to criticise us, or we shall be criticised by means of revolts. The revolt in Georgia was criticism. The revolt in Tambov was also criticism. The revolt in Kronstadt—was not that criticism? One thing or the other: either we abandon this official optimism and official approach to the matter, do not fear criticism and allow ourselves to be criticised by the non-Party workers and peasants, who, after all, are the ones to feel the effects of our mistakes, or we do not do this, and discontent will accumulate and grow, and we shall have criticism in the form of revolts." -- J.V. Stalin, Works

"The successes of our collective-farm policy are due, among other things, to the fact that it rests on the voluntary character of the collective-farm movement and on taking into account the diversity of conditions in the various regions of the U.S.S.R. Collective farms must not be established by force. That would be foolish and reactionary. The collective-farm movement must rest on the active support of the main mass of the peasantry. Examples of the formation of collective farms in the developed areas must not be mechanically transplanted to under-developed areas. That would be foolish and reactionary. Such a "policy" would discredit the collectivization idea at one stroke." -- J.V. Stalin, Dizzy With Success

A.J.
3rd April 2007, 18:19
Originally posted by [email protected] 31, 2007 06:14 pm
No communist revolutionary under-estimates the respect and affection that Stalin is held in by millions around the world, and with good reason. BUT it was during his leadership that the flawed revisionist economic understanding and ‘peace’ diplomacy was communicated around the international communist parties with lasting and disastrous reformist consequences including the ‘Parliamentary Road to Socialism’ of the old CPGB (British communist party) which was sanctioned by the Soviet leadership!
J.V. Stalin actually criticised in Pravda the reformist 'British Road to Socialism' programme as being "too tame" following it's original publication in 1951.

sexyguy
3rd April 2007, 18:26
J.V. Stalin actually criticised in Pravda the reformist 'British Road to Socialism' programme as being "too tame" following it's original publication in 1951.

Thanks. Please tell us more about this. Any sources?

gilhyle
4th April 2007, 00:42
Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 02:56 pm
"The successes of our collective-farm policy are due, among other things, to the fact that it rests on the voluntary character of the collective-farm movement and on taking into account the diversity of conditions in the various regions of the U.S.S.R. Collective farms must not be established by force. That would be foolish and reactionary. The collective-farm movement must rest on the active support of the main mass of the peasantry. Examples of the formation of collective farms in the developed areas must not be mechanically transplanted to under-developed areas. That would be foolish and reactionary. Such a "policy" would discredit the collectivization idea at one stroke." -- J.V. Stalin, Dizzy With Success
Your quotes from Stalin are all very interesting, but who can take seriously this description of collectivization ? Stalin said one thing and did another - cant entirely blame him for that; there are circumstances when it is legitimate. But the importance of violence in his economic policy remains and the corrosive effect of that on the party remains.

the transition phase after a seizure of the state is a delicate balance between the institutionalisation of the revolution and the nurturing of the revolutionary elan which originally drove the revolution. Stalin moved to eliminate that revolutionary elan as a threat to the stability of the regime and to his ability to use the state to enforce his economic policies. He despised (with some merit) the weakness of the bulk of the bolshevik party, but in throwing them away in the mid thirties he made the USSR irreformabie and made his its doom inevitable. He relied too much on building the insitutions of the State, because he relied too much on violence.

sexyguy
4th April 2007, 19:03
gilhyle,


the transition phase after a seizure of the state is a delicate balance between the institutionalisation of the revolution and the nurturing of the revolutionary elan which originally drove the revolution. Stalin moved to eliminate that revolutionary elan as a threat to the stability of the regime and to his ability to use the state to enforce his economic policies. He despised (with some merit) the weakness of the bulk of the bolshevik party, but in throwing them away in the mid thirties he made the USSR irreformabie and made his its doom inevitable. He relied too much on building the insitutions of the State, because he relied too much on violence.

As I understand it, the whole point of a ‘state’, all states, is to be violent when the need arises. As you probably understand, if there were no contending, hostile class interests there would be no need for a state. Your argument seems to be pointing towards not building “institutions of State” after the working class seizes power and the question of what is or is not “too much” or to little violence, as with everything else, is ultimately determined by the ‘revolutionary understanding’ of the balance of class forces locally and internationally. I don’t know what “elan” (style, flamboyance or elegance in my dictionary) has to do with anything.

I for one would welcome more on this. The more all round clarity we can get, the better.

gilhyle
5th April 2007, 21:11
IF I can be so glib for a moment - I have no objection in principle to violence by the revolutionary state. The problem arises with the manner in which the revolutionary party deteriorated in the process. Rogovin's book on 1937: Stalin's year of terror is very good on how that terror was the inevitable consequence of wider policy commitments that led on to what happened in 37 - not any personal paranoia on Stalin's part. The 1937 terror was a necessary consequence of the unfolding of policies which dated back to the late 1920s. And it is that which must be engaged with to understand Stalin.

Stalin (and Mao patently followed him in this) came to see himself as the leader of a covert faction within the party, one which diluted and then conspired against the bulk of the party which he saw as a threat.

How did he get to this position ? I wont rehearse the history. But I see Lenin's adoption of the NEP and the decisive rejection of war communism as the key moment in the process. It was necessary to build a civil society with an orderly economy if the USSR was to survive as a base for international revolution without tearing itself apart. That required a certain constraint on the part of the State, not merely to protect the kulaks and small business men that were objectively necessary, but also to protect the party itself - as event proved.

The erratic Revolutionary Party was indeed the greatest threat to the Revolutionary State, but it was only by sustaining the State as a state ruled by a revolutionary party - with all the dangerous internal debates and incoherences of policy that that inevitabily led to - that the ulterior project of the USSR as a base for international revolution could continue for the medium term.

Here is the paradox: the party established the State, became the greatest threat to the State and most needed the protection of the State.

When I talk about 'elan' what I refer to was the spirit that was lost by the long process from the extention of the ban on factions beyond 1922 to the Lenin Levy and on to the enforced recantations, the early expulsions of the Trotskyists and ending with the 1937 purges after which there simply were no revolutionaries in the party, except those like Molotov who survived within Stalins covert faction.

Thus I conclude that this process of building a soviet society within a capitalist world is more nuanced than it at first appears. The building of a planned economy is less important than it at first might seem - as long as the monopoly on foreign trade and the levers of credit are controlled the planned economy and the growth of the economy are less important than the protection of the revolutionary party from the consequences of its own power. That can only be achieved by the rigorous protection of inner-party democracy.

Granted the USSR position where there was virtually no ruling working class to back up the party was an extreme example - amazingly almost repeated in China, though I think the CHinese working class might have been a bit stronger. To protect the revolutionary party with little or no class culture to sustain it would have been extremely difficult. But there were was.

For example, there was a huge artistic and scientific renaissance in the USSR in the 1920s, fired by the revolution, which was squashed in the early 30s and this did untold damage to the layers of politicised cadre.

sexyguy
5th April 2007, 22:30
Thus I conclude that this process of building a soviet society within a capitalist world is more nuanced than it at first appears.
I am absolutely certain that I might agree with this and much else in your refreshingly interesting piece. Wage labour beckons but I’ll get back asp, tomorrow.

sexyguy
6th April 2007, 21:39
That required a certain constraint on the part of the State, not merely to protect the kulaks and small business men that were objectively necessary, but also to protect the party itself - as event proved.
As I understand Lenin’s appeals at the time, he was arguing that the wealthy peasants in alliance with the capitalist “salesmen” were the main threat (to party and state) if they did not get payment etc, which is what you seem to be saying above.
Then you say:


The erratic Revolutionary Party was indeed the greatest threat to the Revolutionary State, ...
Have I misunderstood or is this at odds with the first bit?


Here is the paradox: the party established the State, became the greatest threat to the State and most needed the protection of the State. ...I think I get all this, but some clarification would help. This is important stuff.


Thus I conclude that this process of building a soviet society within a capitalist world is more nuance d than it at first appears ...
You can say that again, some of the ’lefts’ might start taking notice.

gilhyle
7th April 2007, 12:08
As background, we have to remember the ideological weakness of the party. The basis for Lenin's politics - the democratic dictatorship of the proletariat and the peasantry - was algebraic and unclear (this is a huge topic for another day). The manner in which the party developed its ideology after the revolution was, domestically, focused on a very small group of people, with very significant gaps in position even among them. The most influential work, Bukharin & Preobrazhenskys ABC of Communism, although an impressively comprehensive effort, was riddled with unanswered questions and that reflected the weakness in the culture of the party before the revolution: Bukharin's weakness as a theoretician, and his influence notwithstandng that for his glib ideas were indicators of a party with a low internal cultural level.

THe development of the ideology of the international party in the first international congresses was impressive, particularly the second and third congresses, but this was a laborious, long term way to develop thinking which only seeped slowly into the domestic party and which was cut off by the domestic party before it got too far.

The party lost many of its best comrades during the civil war.

Against that background, I think if you look at the way the party was developing in the 1920s it was coming under a range of pressures that were significantly changing its nature; sequentially:

- a significant number of anarchists and mensheviks joined the party;
- a small but influential layer of foreign socialists of various hues joined the party;
- victory in the civil war meant that it became a target for every careerist;
- membership began to connote significant material priviledge;
- critically, it began to be representative of the whole of the society, particularly the peasantry.
- the Cheka began to target party members of supervision (Dzherzhensky rightly seeing what was happening)

Now look at the nature of the party around 1925/26:

1. Its constitutional position was unclear (indeed the constiutional theory of the bolsheviks was unclear : they rejected the separation of powers doctrine, but what they put in its place was a voluntarist concept of there being no hiding place for reaction and an unimplemented (maybe unimplementable) concept of soviet democracy) and the unclear role of the party mirrored the unclear position of the Trade Unions (despite the Lenin/Trotsky controversy)

2. Its urban working class base was a mass of immigrants still steeped in the culture of their villages

3. Its rural base was radically divided between the different social types of peasants all vying for influence and legitimacy in the party.

4. its Marxist tradition was increasingly taken up only by an ultraleft rump who were increasingly lightheaded about the responsibilities of power and supported Trotsky only out of sentiment;

Thus the party had become, almost - I exaggerate slightly - a tabula rasa on which the emerging dominant social forces could hope to write their ticket (if they could defeat their rivals), in which internal democracy had become problematic because the party had ceased to be capable of responsible revolutionary leadership.

Until Stalin slaughtered the party, it remained like this. Indecisive, mirroring rather than managing the problems in the society, increasingly non-marxist, divided into a hard core old cadre who had the education to speak the weird language of internal decision making and a mass of members who simply watched untill some issue of local relevance emerged.

There were some optimistic straws in the wind in the late 1920s suggesting there could be a settling down to a new constitutional regime in which politics as a stable process of informed debate, dissent and decision making could emerge. THe quality of the press (I think) improved a bit. The soviets operated a bit better. An interesting new generation of Trotskyists seems to have been emerging (people who had grown up in the revolution), very different from the older figures - some comments suggest they were far less ultra left , more interested in using Trotsky as a figurehead for orderly politics (I'm speculating here without enough evidence)

Now what is going on here ? THe best analogies are to Cromwell's regime in England in the 1650s or to 1792-94 in France or maybe Algeria just after independence. If we take the Cromwell case, what is notable was that the English parliament was too indecisive, too conflicted an entity to rule. It was impossible for Cromwell to pass power to parliament because there was insufficient unity of interests or purpose. He could not create a civil politics and thus he had to rule by dictatorship - his death led inevitably to the reestablishment of absolutist monarchy, not as ruler but as mediator, between the contending factions of the English ruling classes.

When we draw on the analogy the first thing we notice is that things were not that bad in the USSR. Violent revolution makes the transition to civil politics intrinsically challenging, but the very existence of a party makes it easier....mediates the process.

The second thing we notice is that the problem and the solutions are similar : revert to the strong man. The Russian party rightly saw this coming and in the 1922-26 period there was widespread discussion of the dangers of 'bonapartism' in the USSR. But their solution to this was collective leadership - a solution that hardly suggests a detailed reading of the facts of the French Revolution, considering how Napoleon emerged !

What is interesting then, if we want to continue to use history, is what examples there are of transitions for violent revolution to effective civil politics without the imposition of a strong man. There are few - Ireland comes to mind.

The point of asking this question is that the PURPOSE of building a socialist society in a backward capitalist society within the capitalist world is as a base for international revolution. To do that, we need a socialist society which sustains a domestic revolutionary party which can be the host of a vibrant international party. For that to happen the domestic party must operate within its society as a healthy mass party with a high political culture. For that to happen it must operate within a civil politics, notwithstanding the on-going requirement to struggle against counter-revolution and to build domestic prosperity. Tall orders.

It is notable that the communist movement today not only does not but arguably cannot yet discuss these issues sensibly and yet without discussion of them no revolutionary socialist strategy for the 21st century can be built and revolutionary politics are merely the consolatory atheistical prayers of lifestyle dissidents.

sexyguy
7th April 2007, 22:19
“It is notable that the communist movement today not only does not but arguably cannot yet discuss these issues sensibly and yet without discussion of them no revolutionary socialist strategy for the 21st century can be built and revolutionary politics are merely the consolatory atheistical prayers of lifestyle dissidents.”
What can I say?! Here, Here!

I don’t know how accurate etc your research is, though it sounds plausible to me, (I’m being cautious) but that is not the most important thing at the moment, your conclusion is. And now the questions start.

I’m going to go and have a good think/talk about this for a couple of days.

Cheers

sexyguy
10th April 2007, 22:05
“It is notable that the communist movement today not only does not but arguably cannot yet discuss these issues sensibly... Surprisingly (for me) there are in fact quite a lot of threads on this site having a go at “these issues” from different angles. My own attempt in this thread is just one of them and was started because like you, I and who knows how many others, are becoming acutely conscious of this failing. This is not a new phenomena and the solutions tried in Britain (mostly alliances) have only muddied the waters even more.

This paragraph hangs intriguingly on the word “sensibly“. This itself means different things depending on which ’communist’/’socialist’ polemical tradition or fashion is being deployed. This applies as much to analysis of ‘current’ events as it does to ’history’.

Could it just be that there is never going to be agreement about what is “sensible” in this context and the discussion will continue without ‘apparent’ resolution until ‘current’ world events lend more support to one tendency rather than the others?

grove street
21st April 2007, 08:35
It's important to remember that when Stalin wrote this he was probably reflecting on his own countries success under his leadership (When Lenin wrote about Capitalism still growing, the USSR was still far from an economic superpower) and the fact that more and more countries were jumping on the Communist bandwagon and following the USSR's 5 year plan model. Stalin probably expected that the new found communist countries would themselves become economic super powers and out-perform western Capitalism and because of this more third world countries who are the source of cheap labour and resources for the Capitalist west, would have revolutions, follow Stalin's economic model and become economic superpowers. Eventually with the loss of cheap labour and resources and the strength of Communist lead countries, Western Capitalism would be strangled to death and western countries would have no other choice but become Communist.

Sadly comrade Stalin had no idea of the revisionism that would plague the USSR and many other Communist lead countries after his death.

A.J.
21st April 2007, 12:51
Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 05:26 pm

J.V. Stalin actually criticised in Pravda the reformist 'British Road to Socialism' programme as being "too tame" following it's original publication in 1951.

Thanks. Please tell us more about this. Any sources?
http://www.oneparty.co.uk/html/jgecprob.html

The phrase Stalin actually used was "too timid"(same meaning)

Rawthentic
21st April 2007, 16:56
Sadly comrade Stalin had no idea of the revisionism that would plague the USSR and many other Communist lead countries after his death.
"Comrade Stalin"?

Damn, there are less communists on this board than I thought.

grove street
22nd April 2007, 10:25
Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 03:56 pm

Sadly comrade Stalin had no idea of the revisionism that would plague the USSR and many other Communist lead countries after his death.
"Comrade Stalin"?

Damn, there are less communists on this board than I thought.
What gives you the right to say who's a Communist or not?

Spike
22nd April 2007, 11:18
But he still found it in his heart to ally with Hitler and wreck the antifascist war in spain, by provoking his forces to agitate against the POUM and the CNT.
Are you fucking joking? The Spanish Republic was able to hold out as long as it did because of the heroism of the Spanish wing of the Comintern and the International Brigade. If anything it were the anarchists who allied with Hitler in trying to destabilize the anti-fascist front. The Comintern wanted to postpone the revolution in order to defeat the fascist counterrevolution whereas the idiot anarchists tried to forge revolution in the midst of a civil war.

it produced poor quality products
My Polish sewing machine which is of excellent quality is older than I am. There are reports of U.S. soldiers opting for an AK-47 because it is far superior.

Rawthentic
22nd April 2007, 17:12
What gives you the right to say who's a Communist or not?
When you say "Comrade" Stalin, you are supporting a maniac who murdered workers who were against his tyranny, as well as communists who wanted to work towards the real thing.

grove street
23rd April 2007, 11:05
Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 04:12 pm

What gives you the right to say who's a Communist or not?
When you say "Comrade" Stalin, you are supporting a maniac who murdered workers who were against his tyranny, as well as communists who wanted to work towards the real thing.
Stalin is not responsible for the deaths caused by collectivism, these deaths were caused by poor weather, Kulak sabotage and party officials lying to Stalin about agriculutral out-put. I'll admit that Stalin did oppress those that opposed him, the Orthodox Church, Bourgeise, Kulaks, Nazis, Fascists, Trotskyists ect. The fact still remains that Stalin was able to turn the USSR which was almost 200 years behind the rest of western Europe into an economic superpower within the space of ten years and this alone saved the USSR and Europe from falling into the hands of the Nazis.

Trotsky may of been an intelligent man, but he wasn't as practical as Stalin and most historians beleive that if Trotsky did become leader instead of Stalin the USSR would most likely not of industrialised fast enough and would of fell to the Nazis.

sexyguy
25th April 2007, 21:30
QUOTE (A.J. @ April 21, 2007 11:51 am)
QUOTE (sexyguy @ April 03, 2007 05:26 pm)
QUOTE
J.V. Stalin actually criticised in Pravda the reformist 'British Road to Socialism' programme as being "too tame" following it's original publication in 1951.



Thanks. Please tell us more about this. Any sources?


http://www.oneparty.co.uk/html/jgecprob.html

The phrase Stalin actually used was "too timid"(same meaning)




“Both supporters and detractors of the British Road to Socialism in the fifties maintained that it had been approved. It was published in full in Pravda, but there is evidence that Stalin criticised it. He is quoted as calling it "too timid", that it was not critical enough of the British Labour Party which he described as the left wing of the Conservative Party.”


Thanks again for this, but what evidence is there and where is Stalin quoted.
I'm not nit-picking here, but as you know, this is important to the descusion .


This realy is verry important to our grsp of the world now.