Did france Let Revolution Slip Away?

[Pilar]

With all of the slum and finance problems, combined with an over 32% membership in a forrm of socialism/communism, and with massive anger at the ruling class in France, did the Paris, Marseille and Lyon movements drop the ball on what could have been a successful revolt?

I'm an American, and only been to France twice, and never for political reasons. I guess my question is directed to Euros on the ground there, or those who really know what's going on.

Any views? Did theyblow it? Is the game still afoot and mounting, or are we talkin another 15 - 20 years?

[Enragé]

no they didnt blow it because class consciousness wasnt and isnt by far on the appropriate level. France isnt radicalised enough.

These were hickups, which COULD progress to something greater if the far left hook on to it, but if they dont they will remain just that; hickups.

We probably are talking 15-20 years, and thats extremely optimistic to say the least.
If i see a communist inclined revolution in the next 15-20 in the first world, that would pretty much make my life ^^
but I'll settle for in my lifetime.

[Pilar]

If France is not on the edge of achieving revolution in te next few years, I can't imagine another country that would be.

Very sad.

[Enragé]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 07:02 pm
If France is not on the edge of achieving revolution in te next few years, I can't imagine another country that would be.

Very sad.
well, if you're talking first world countries, you might be right.

Look into greece as well though, i think they might be closer.

and yes its sad, but thats the way it is
we can crawl into a corner and be all emo, but that will just ensure things stay sad ;)

[which doctor]

I wouldn't be very surprised if France suddenly broke into revolution next month. Revolutionary situations often pop up when you least expect it. There is little you can do to accurately predict and plan for a revolutionary struggle. Autonomous insurrections do not play by your typical "class consciousness" rules.

[Ander]

I've always thought France is one of the most revolutionary places around, probably the most in Europe. If there is hope for socialism in the West, it lies solely on France, in my opinion.

From what I know they have some serious race issues there; you might remember some serious disturbances (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_riots) there two years ago. Pretty intense stuff.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

We probably are talking 15-20 years,

What is happening in "15-20 years"?

I have the feeling people have said this since Marx and Engels. "Just wait 50 years", "20 years", "15" etc.

[Enragé]

I wouldn't be very surprised if France suddenly broke into revolution next month. Revolutionary situations often pop up when you least expect it. There is little you can do to accurately predict and plan for a revolutionary struggle. Autonomous insurrections do not play by your typical "class consciousness" rules.

No, but as i see it (and i might be wrong, i even hope i am) there is no sense of urgency to have a revolution, no underlying mass organisation, no constructive alternative put forward by anything but fringe groups (though i suspect they are gaining influence).

You can say all you want it doesnt play by my "typical "class consciousness" rules", but if people do not have a basic, minimal grasp of what is wrong in the current situation, who is to blame, and with what it is to be replaced, then you're not going to have a revolution, let alone a succesful one.. you might have disturbances, riots, strikes, but as long as that lacks, that "class consciousness" or whatever you want to call it, nothing constructive will come out of it.

As i said, i hope im wrong, and i certainly hope our comrades in france are paving the way for something to happen, but on the short term i do not see it happening.


I've always thought France is one of the most revolutionary places around, probably the most in Europe. If there is hope for socialism in the West, it lies solely on France, in my opinion.

From what I know they have some serious race issues there; you might remember some serious disturbances there two years ago. Pretty intense stuff.


yes, and race issues are extremely detrimental to any hope for a radical leftist alternative (being socialism or communism/anarchism straight away).

For a revolution to occur, the working class must first have united to a good degree. That process in which the working class unites and sees where its enemy lies is still to be completed, and in many, many first world countries it hasnt even begun yet.
To see such race issues in france, which apparently is seen as the vanguard (excuse the leninist terminology) of the first world revolution by many, shows how far off we probably are.


What is happening in "15-20 years"?

I have the feeling people have said this since Marx and Engels. "Just wait 50 years", "20 years", "15" etc.


i used the phrase "15-20 years" because thats what the guy/gal who started topic asked, "or is it still 15-20 years away" or something along those lines.

Im not saying anything will happen in 15-20 years, certainly not if we just wait it out and then watch for the revolution to happen.

Our job is to pave the way, increase class consciousness (or whatever you want to call it), steadily increasing the mass of people who stand side by side with us and reach out to marginalised segments of society.
And basicly, i think its going to be a long haul.

[вор в законе]

If you want a Revolution you need to have a clear-cut program of what and how shall be the new society. What's the point of having a Revolution if the movement doesn't even know what it wants?

[the-red-under-the-bed]

you cant put a timeline on revolution. And revolutions by their very nature are unpredicatable and spontaneous. Lenin himslef didnt see the russian revolution and was predicting he wouldnt see it in his lifetime upuntil 1916 or so. i dont know enough about france to comment specifically, but i know enough about revolutions that they can happen at any time, and often you dont know theyve begun until after the fact. In venezeula for example, the riots in 1989 are in some respects the roots of the revolution, and hugo chavez wasnt a household name until 1992 during the uprising then. We look back now and see these as potentially major points in venezeulas revolution, but at the time they seem as almost one off and unrelated events. Who knows, we might look back in 10 years and say the riots in france in 2006 was the beggining of the great revoltuoin of the western world.

[BreadBros]

Does everyone really think France is the European country with the most revolutionary capacity? From what I've seen it has two things going for it. One is that it has the most productive and independent leftist intellectuals around. Which is useful but doesn't necessarily translate into revolution. Two, its one of the few countries where Trotskyists candidates can get ~10% of the electoral vote. It seems to me like a lot of the legacy/image of 1968 hangs on to France but I have to wonder if its really still there at all. Italy also went through a "Hot Autumn" in 69/70 where there was a massive amount of labor strife and mobilization. But now most of that is gone and Italy is fairly conservative at the moment. Whats the situation in other European countries from those that are in the know? Germany? Spain? etc??

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Did the French Left lose a golden opportunity for a revolution?

Yes, they most certainly did. The potential was there, the masses were to a large extent ready, but there was no revolutionary organization to unite them.

However, rather than seeing this as a reason for despair, I see this as a reason for hope: It shows that the revolutionary potential of the working class is still alive and well, even in the first world.

We must stop thinking of European countries as independent units, though. The revolution may start in one country, but it will have to engulf the entire European Union if it is to succeed. I would really like to see a Union of European Socialist Republics in my lifetime...

[Enragé]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 03:59 am
Does everyone really think France is the European country with the most revolutionary capacity? From what I've seen it has two things going for it. One is that it has the most productive and independent leftist intellectuals around. Which is useful but doesn't necessarily translate into revolution. Two, its one of the few countries where Trotskyists candidates can get ~10% of the electoral vote. It seems to me like a lot of the legacy/image of 1968 hangs on to France but I have to wonder if its really still there at all. Italy also went through a "Hot Autumn" in 69/70 where there was a massive amount of labor strife and mobilization. But now most of that is gone and Italy is fairly conservative at the moment. Whats the situation in other European countries from those that are in the know? Germany? Spain? etc??
germany is ok but nothing special
spain has the CNT (both a radical one and a less radical one, both with good membership)

greece is the one we should be looking at

[gilhyle]

There is something bizarre about the Trotskyist vote in France. It goes back to 68, certainly (and further back)...but it is now a very sedate comfortable voting bloc often voting out of pure sentiment ('plague on both your houses'). its great that it exists, but it is, I think, a product of comfort, safety, luxury among petit bourgeois layers rather than any radicalised, hard core WC.

As to the riots - this is the slums outside Paris and Marseilles etc. Yes there is a race issue here, yes allowing concentrated discontent to build up in major cities is a strategic error by the state but maybe not such a big error as it once was - you cant march 14 miles outside the city anymore and seize the State.....so there may be the spark, but there is very little combustible material around.

[Enragé]

i think the problem generally in the first world is that, even though there is much, much discontent people dont see what needs to be done, what can be done.
Radical leftism first and foremost, has to force its way back into mainstream thought and discussion.

[Angry Young Man]

My revolutionary spidey sense tingles that:
a) Anti-capitalist revolt will start in the undeveloped world (as is happening in Venezuela)
b) The global ruling class (i.e. N. Amer and W. Europe) will send in their collective might to crush these insurrections.
c) Eventually, people from the West will become up-in-arms about this, gaining a huge amount of support for the left.
d) Next, the soldiers will become sick of a war that they had no business in in the first place, and mutiny.
e) Soviets will form in wealthy nations, and eventually overturn the bourgeoisie, country by country, so, like has been said, there will be a union of Socialist Republics in W Europe, probably with a triumvirate of Britain, France and Germany, which support the poorer nations such as Greece, Spain and Portugal and moreover, the new republics in the third world.
f) The last country to go will be the US. Once the reds have control of that, then the revolution can go entirely global.

For a while, until the forces of production rise in the third world, it will be largely dependent on the aforementioned triumvirate. I heard that Marx said that a revolution could start in Russia as long as it continued in the developed West (hence Lenin's and more particularly Trotsky's eagerness for revolution in Germany). This is why the USSR went so horribly wrong, I think.

Am I the only person who thinks it'd be well cool to see an empty Buckingham Palace draped with red flags, and the city of London was covered in Red Banners?
Also, would we pull down Nelson's statue and who would we replace it with?
Let's preserve TAT after he dies and bury him in an open Mausoleum in Sheffield!

I just realised I have completely ruined a post!

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Death blows to imperialism, via imperialist-oppressed countries breaking free of the imperialist choke hold, will bring about revolution in the imperialist countries.

See this for more. (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/fpm/page.php?175#13)

[Enragé]

or a backlash leading to the whole western working class coming at odds with the working class of the imperialist-oppressed countries

it all depends on the influence of the western leftist groups

[gilhyle]

Romantic Revolutionary,you really do have a dream, lucky you - hold on to it. :D

[Comeback Kid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 03:46 pm
With all of the slum and finance problems, combined with an over 32% membership in a forrm of socialism/communism, and with massive anger at the ruling class in France, did the Paris, Marseille and Lyon movements drop the ball on what could have been a successful revolt?

I'm an American, and only been to France twice, and never for political reasons. I guess my question is directed to Euros on the ground there, or those who really know what's going on.

Any views? Did theyblow it? Is the game still afoot and mounting, or are we talkin another 15 - 20 years?

over 32% membership in a forrm of socialism/communism,

If we want a truely egaliterian society their needs to be more then 32%, thats not even a democracy, which is 51% . something like 90% should do it.


I'm an American, and only been to France twice, and never for political reasons.

Then show some fuckin solidarity and let them do what the see fit to do.


talkin another 15 - 20 years

try 50

[Enragé]

no need to be an asshole about it comeback kid
he's only asking a question

and 32% still beats the shit out of any other country (though i hope he's not counting the Parti Socialiste with that :P )