What kind of guy was Karl Marx?

[R_P_A_S]

Was he an asshole? did he make stupid jokes?
a quiet person? loud? did he smell? lol

any of you here read anything that could describe this man?

[Demogorgon]

I don't know. I never met him

[RaptorJesus]

According to Wikiquote, here are some answers to questions posed by his daughters:

Your favourite virtue ... Simplicity
Your favourite virtue in man ... Strength
Your favourite virtue in woman ... Weakness
Your chief characteristic ... Singleness of purpose
Your idea of happiness ... To fight
Your idea of misery ... Submission
The vice you excuse most ... Gullibility
The vice you detest most ... Servility
Your aversion ... Martin Tupper
Favourite occupation ... Book-worming
Favourite poet ... Shakespeare, Aeschylus, Goethe
Favourite prose-writer ... Diderot
Favourite hero ... Spartacus, Kepler
Favourite heroine ... Gretchen [Heroine of Goethe's Faust]
Favourite flower ... Daphne
Favourite colour ... Red
Favourite name ... Laura, Jenny
Favourite dish ... Fish
Favourite maxim ... Nihil humani a me alienum puto [Nothing human is alien to me]
Favourite motto ... De omnibus dubitandum [Everything must be doubted].

[Fodman]

Favourite colour ... Red
Lol - makes sense!

[Vanguard1917]

We might find out soon on the big screen - apparently there are plans to make Marx the movie (link (http://news.independent.co.uk/people/pandora/article2308393.ece)).

[Leo]

When he was an excellent story teller when he was a child; he made his older sisters eat pies of mud in exchange for telling them stories...

He loved drinking, even as an old man he got drunk often and there is a legend about him climbing the Big Ben in England...

He was obsessed with chess, but he wasn't really good at it. He lost to Wilhelm Liebnecht so many times that his wife banned him playing chess...

Pages of Das Kapital were flying in his house along with his children's toys...

The biography of him by Francis Wheen is focusing on Karl Marx, the person. I would suggest it to anyone interested.

[R_P_A_S]

can you imagine hitting the pub with marx? lol :D

[Tower of Bebel]

so we can say that if he would have lived today he would definately have visited the stoner thread.

[Fodman]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 08:29 am
We might find out soon on the big screen - apparently there are plans to make Marx the movie (link (http://news.independent.co.uk/people/pandora/article2308393.ece)).
Johnny Depp as a possibility to play Marx, with Scorsese producing! - I have got to see it, sounds fabulous!

[Sir Aunty Christ]

Marx was a swell guy. He bought me my first drink from the off licence when I was 7 years old.

[Lenin II]

He strikes me as a guy who was very intellectual, but could seriously party if he wanted to. He could probably see through people pretty easily, as he did with the capitalist system. He was probably easy-going, but could see right through you with the precision of a scalpel. I’d love to have a beer with him though I’m not sure if he drank.

[CodeAires]

Your favourite virtue in woman ... Weakness


Isn't that kind of against his own teachings?

[rouchambeau]

can you imagine hitting the pub with marx? lol

I remember reading a book about Karl Marx that included a story of him when he was in a pub. Marx apparently liked to get drunk and yell at people. I believe that one time, I'm not exactly sure why, he kept screaming "I WILL ANIHILATE YOU" over and over at some random guy.

I'll look up the details later.

[Janus]

Isn't that kind of against his own teachings?
It's probably best to consult what he actually wrote on gender and feminism rather than depend on a children's survey.

[bezdomni]

I’d love to have a beer with him though I’m not sure if he drank.


He drank quite a bit, as others have mentioned in this thread.

Marx pawned off his last pair of pants to buy a case of cigars while he was really poor and dependent on Engels.

[Your Humble Narrator]

I've heard he was quite articulate, which comes with his intellect. Also I've heard he was often looked-upon as upper-class himself. ;)

I do not, however, know him personally, so don't take my word for it.

[RebelDog]

There is a curious bit in Wheen's biography of Marx where Wheen describes an incident where Marx was in a cab going through London when he saw that a group of people had assembled around a heated argument between a couple of people in the street. Marx got out of the cab and pushed through the crowd and proceeded to try and break up the argument and calm things down. Instead of calming things down, Marx with his huge beard and german accent, found himself ganged up on by the people who had the original dispute, and he had to run like hell to get away from them. This apparently was typical Marx, blundering in everywhere with the best of intentions.

Wheen makes a fantastic job of portraying the real human side of Marx. Marx's wife and kids loved him to death and he loved them to death. Wheen left me thinking Karl Marx would have been a person I would have loved to have been able to call a friend. When Marx won Radio 4's greatest philosopher vote, by a landslide, the right-wing UK Daily Mail, done a 2 page spread with the banner 'Marx the monster'. Marx was a sensitive, caring, human-being and I would wipe my big fat arse with the Daily Mail.

[Hit The North]

and I would wipe my big fat arse with the Daily Mail.

I wouldn't even do that.

[RebelDog]

Originally posted by Citizen [email protected] 28, 2007 12:18 am

and I would wipe my big fat arse with the Daily Mail.

I wouldn't even do that.
Neither would I. I meant to say "I wouldn't wipe my big, fat, sweaty arse with a rabid, right-wing, reactionary, scumbag, bourgeois rag, such as the Daily Mail. :P

[which doctor]

I heard he liked to party and drink a lot in his youth.

[Demogorgon]

Has to be said, Marx sounds like the sort of man with whom I would hae got on like a house on fire. His personality seems quite similair to mine.

[CodeAires]

He is the kind of dude I'd like to sit down and have a good talk with. I don't know if I'd hit the bar with him, though :lol:

[R_P_A_S]

lately I been hearing that Marx, and incliding Engels were racist. or made several racist remarks.. any info on this? how can the fucking guy who called on all working man to unite be a racist?

[UndergroundConnexion]

uhm , i believe the people saying he is racist are reffering to a letter he once wrote to insult somebody or something in that kind... remember the context was 19th century, so ye certain terms employed were more familliar, but as can be read in the Manifesto he was against hatred of "foreigners"

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 02:57 pm
uhm , i believe the people saying he is racist are reffering to a letter he once wrote to insult somebody or something in that kind... remember the context was 19th century, so ye certain terms employed were more familliar, but as can be read in the Manifesto he was against hatred of "foreigners"
and what word did he used to insult someone. and who? wee need to get to the bottom of this. because its no just capitalist. some left wing people claim this too

[Karl Marx's Camel]

:lol:

What a wonderful, original fellow.

Anywho, I read some time ago that Marx actually participated in a dual, resulting in a minor injury.

[ComradeRed]

The "vibe" I get from Marx (and perhaps I am wrong) is that he was a very nice man if you were his friend.

He was a man with a stimulating intellect that read everything he possibly could get his hands on and took extensive notes on what he read(!).

I get this sense that he's kind of like a bear when he's angry...at least, when he "lashes out" against his rivals in his writing. He did participate in a dual, if I recall correctly, during college and his father essentially said "Well, you're going to the university of Berlin".

From one of his biographies, I get the image of Marx being a bitter and sardonic (at least sarcastic) fellow as a student, calling other kids "philistines" :lol:

From some of his letters, he's a very nice man. He escorted Otto von Bismarck's daughter to her proper train when she was lost in London once. She asked who Marx was (apparently he was the only one who spoke German, and Bismarck's niece only knew German), and when he informed her that he was Marx, she was taken aback. Marx quipped something along the lines that she was "flabberghast" that this "red knight" would come to her rescue.

He was a prolific cigar smoker; he also enjoyed German beer, and if I recall correctly, he smoked a pipe.

From my impression, he was a good man.

But that's all well and good. The point now however is to critically think about his work.

Some things he was powerfully right about, like his economics. Other things he was powerfully wrong about, like his view on dialectics.

Regardless of how he lived, we should be more concerned with what he thought.

It doesn't matter how many cigars he smoked a day, or how many times he pissed in the chamber pot per week. What does matter is his work.

[Vanguard1917]

It doesn't matter how many cigars he smoked a day, or how many times he pissed in the chamber pot per week. What does matter is his work.

Agreed. His theoretical work and his political activism is what is most important for us. It's best to leave curiosities concerning 'Marx the man' to the liberals.

[RedStarOverChina]

Since everyone here likes it so much, I'll order Francis Wheen's biography on Marx.


God help you all if it sucks. :)

[Leo]

Agreed. His theoretical work and his political activism is what is most important for us. It's best to leave curiosities concerning 'Marx the man' to the liberals.

Learning about "Marx the man" is important to all who worship "Marx the god" if you know what I mean ;)

[RebelDog]

Since everyone here likes it so much, I'll order Francis Wheen's biography on Marx.

Its a fantastic book. You'll love it.


Learning about "Marx the man" is important to all who worship "Marx the god" if you know what I mean

Marx as a person interests myself and many others. I like to know what drove the man who wrote capital and the CM. I am in awe of his intellect and insight but I do not 'worship him'. Its also good to know about Marx the man because our enemies so often attack him personally because they fail to stop his ideas. Marx had a very interesting life that I find exciting to read about. Far from being godlike, I have found Marx to be very human.

[Leo]

Far from being godlike, I have found Marx to be very human.

Exactly. "Nihil humani a me alienum puto"

[Vanguard1917]

Nothing human is alien to me either. Well said, Mr Marx.


Marx as a person interests myself and many others.

It interests me too. But his theories and his activism interest me more. My point is that our emphasis should always be on the political - not on the personal.


Its also good to know about Marx the man because our enemies so often attack him personally because they fail to stop his ideas.

Let them. They can either criticise him politically or not enter into a political debate. Because we're not really interested in defending Marx on a personal level.

[Leo]

Well said, Mr Marx.

Actually the first who said it was Terentius Afer in his play, Heauton Timoroumenos .

[Vanguard1917]

Great stuff. Apparently, the full quote is: 'Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto', which is 'I am human, nothing that is human is alien to me.'

Well said, Mr Afer.

[( R )evolution]

It interests me too. But his theories and his activism interest me more. My point is that our emphasis should always be on the political - not on the personal.

I understand this but personally, I find it very interesting to find out what type of man Marx was. After reading the countless books he has written I think it would be very interesting to just see how he lived his life. Studying someone life should always put aside to there contribution to theory, economics etc. but I think it is perfectly fine to take a break and read some info on the personal Marx

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

If you want a laugh, and be inspired by Marx, check these out:

http://www.users.skynet.be/bk372187/karl-marx.mp3

http://mp3.lpi.org.uk/resistancemp3/karl-marx-2nd-part.mp3

More stuff here:

http://mp3.lpi.org.uk/resistancemp/fulllist.htm

[Angry Young Man]

I decided to take this little catechism for kicks and get away from English coursework!


Your favourite virtue ... Improvisation, bloody-mindedness
Your favourite virtue in man ... Endowment, keen intellect, nice bum, good chest
Your favourite virtue in woman ... keen intellect
Your chief characteristic ... Idleness (lol)
Your idea of happiness ... Getting out of Somerset or being a musician and everyone having enough cheese to never suffer cheese withdrawals ever again
Your idea of misery ... A Tory Government or bosses that are complete dicks!
The vice you excuse most ... Cigarettes (boy will the anarchists have a go at me. All both of them!)
The vice you detest most ... miserliness, reading the Daily Mail
Your aversion ... Reality, tories
Favourite occupation ... Writing bad plays about gay schoolboys
Favourite poet ... Sylvia Plath or Pablo Neruda
Favourite prose-writer ... George Orwell
Favourite hero ... BATMAN!!!!
Favourite heroine ... Lara Croft (TR series) or Mercedes (Pan's Labyrinth)
Favourite flower ... Red Lilies or white roses
Favourite colour ... Red
Favourite name ... Carol for Girls, Leo or Lucas for boys, Rosa for guitars!
Favourite dish ... Chicken fajitas or a stew in a large yorkshire pudding
Favourite maxim ... "When I hear right-wing I think of Hitler, Satan and civil war. When I hear right-wing I think of Ronald Reagan clones as mayor in every city in the US" (Kurt Cobain's rant on the politically hilarious)
Favourite motto ... "The first sign of potential brain damage is submitting to capitalism; The second is thinking it works" (me on capitalism)

[Angry Young Man]

They interviewed his band in Kerrang a year ago. Here's the thingy-watsit.



So, Red Zeppelin (sorry Dr RP), you're on tour with Rage Against the Machine. How's things between the two camps?

KARL MARX (vocals): Oh yea great buncha lads! It was great when we got the phonecall off Zach (de la Rocha, RATM vocalist) telling us that he loved our second album, the German Ideology. It was like: "O my fucking science!"
VLAD LENIN (guitar): Yea they really know their stuff. Since then, We've become ardent Rochist-Morellists. You know, like the socialist theory of de la Rocha with the implementation style of Morello.
LEON TROTSKY (bass): Yea but it's gone downhill since Cornell took over. All that Soundgardism isn't good for the people. It even copies the styles of bourgeios bands!



Someone else continue. I can't be arsed.

But yea. Born in 1818, educated at Bonn and Berlin, where he got in a brawl with another student for the favours of a fair maiden. His favourite musician was Robert Johnson, his favourite actor was Clark Gable, his fave food and drink were Chicken & mushroom pie and cream soda, his favourite TV programme was Lost and his favourite film was Cinderella.

Who can do a more random one, eh?

[Political_Chucky]

Originally posted by R_P_A_S+March 28, 2007 07:08 am--> (R_P_A_S @ March 28, 2007 07:08 am)
[email protected] 28, 2007 02:57 pm
uhm , i believe the people saying he is racist are reffering to a letter he once wrote to insult somebody or something in that kind... remember the context was 19th century, so ye certain terms employed were more familliar, but as can be read in the Manifesto he was against hatred of "foreigners"
and what word did he used to insult someone. and who? wee need to get to the bottom of this. because its no just capitalist. some left wing people claim this too [/b]
I was also wondering this because as mentioned in the thread (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=64861) I made today about the introduction of the Manifesto I bought recently, the author(Francis B. Randall) mentions,


"He wrote a fair amount about the Jews of Europe, always regading judaism as a stupid superstition, and the jews as a community caught in the vise of capitalism from which only the revolution could free them. He adopted from his christian neighbors the habit of calling ideas and people he did not like "dirty-Jewish" whether they were jewish or not, and when he really hated someone(for instance, Fedinand Lassalle, a man of Jewish origin who became the greatest German socialist and trade union leader in the 1860's), Marx would call him a "dirty jew of Negro blood."

This man obviously has no place to write an introduction for the Manifesto and does not leave any citations for references.

[Sonnie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 10:25 pm


Your favourite virtue in man ... Strength
Your favourite virtue in woman ... Weakness

Sexism?

[Sir Aunty Christ]

Originally posted by Sonnie+April 04, 2007 02:03 am--> (Sonnie @ April 04, 2007 02:03 am)
[email protected] 25, 2007 10:25 pm


Your favourite virtue in man ... Strength
Your favourite virtue in woman ... Weakness

Sexism? [/b]
Undoubtedly.

However, two things need to be taken into consideration:

1. He could have been putting on a show for his young daughter

and

2. It was the 19th century and these views were the norm. Whereas today, sexist are (rightly) vilified.

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by Sir Aunty Christ+April 04, 2007 09:12 pm--> (Sir Aunty Christ @ April 04, 2007 09:12 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 02:03 am

[email protected] 25, 2007 10:25 pm


Your favourite virtue in man ... Strength
Your favourite virtue in woman ... Weakness

Sexism?
Undoubtedly.

However, two things need to be taken into consideration:

1. He could have been putting on a show for his young daughter

and

2. It was the 19th century and these views were the norm. Whereas today, sexist are (rightly) vilified. [/b]
Another thing it is true in those days.

Before labeling me as a sexist, understand the situatiuon. Majority of women were just slaves for their Husabands and Childrens until WW1. That is a fact .Only in 1920's did they got the right to vote in USSR and only after WW2 did the women in western world attain what they are today.

In the developing countries and underdeveloping countries the conditions of women are still worse. And their weakness(not physical but social) is the reason for them.

[Janus]

That comment doesn't seem to match up with his writings on women and their struggles. It's best to reach your conclusions on Marx's views based on those writings rather than some children's survey.

[R_P_A_S]

ok so he did make regular insults at jewish and blacks?? WTF?????? ugh!

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

RPAS, on that, check this out:

http://www.marxists.de/religion/draper/marxjewq.htm

By the way, 2 of your warning points should be removed, since they are over 6 months old.

[Janus]

ok so he did make regular insults at jewish and blacks??
I don't think he ever made any insults towards Jews as he was from Jewish background. However, he did make some remarks towards Ferdinand Lassalle that would be considered racist by today's standards.

[Janus]

By the way, 2 of your warning points should be removed, since they are over 6 months old.
No, that is only for warning points given for minor infractions such as spamming or flaming.


Originally posted by Guidelines
Warning points which have been given for racist, homophobic, sexist, antisemitic, or other reactionary comments can be reviewed after 6 months by the CC. Warning points for reactionary comments are not removed automatically and general members must contact an admin who will put the issue before the CC.

[gilhyle]

THere is a big problem with trying to judge Marx's use of 'jewish' by modern standards, traumatised as we are (rightly) by the Holocaust.

Marx is often accused of racism and the main evidence adjuced is his opposition to his daughter's marriage to the (as it used to be called) 'mulatto' Paul Lafargue (He gave in).

As to sexism, he undoubtedly never went beyond his time - unfaithful to his wife, protective of his daughters in a very old fashioned way.

I dont think Marx was nearly as 'nice' as people might like to think. He had within him a burning desire to use words to change people and change the world, to do violence with words, to rent and tear and rebuild the minds of those around him. He had a fear of the ordinary and and a troubling sense of his own difference from others. All of which came out in a sense of bitterness and sarcasm wearing on all those who knew him.

But he was passionate and his passion saved him from his supercilliousness. Just as his deep affection saved him from his rationalising coldness.

He judged you before he knew you and he held his judgements for years. So it wasnt about whether you liked him - did he like you ?

He was ruthless and treated those close to him with a terrifying disregard for their suffering. He valued his own authenticity above all human relations. He could watch the tears fall down your face and feel nothing. He could promise you faithfully to do such and such and.....just fail to fulfill his promise.

You dont get a man like Marx without rough edges : dont kid yourself.

Now, you wanna go back in time to meet a nice guy......try Engels. There was a nice guy, witty, up for it, always laughing, articulate, considerate, a true lover, a loyal friend, a fascinating converstationalist.....always happy to share his best wine from his adored cellar and follow it up with his best port ....all the time explaining to you where to get the best beer in Germany - unless of course you wanted to gossip about who was sleeping with who or discuss what was the best way forward for the world socialist movement : all part of the great gift of life for old Engels.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Janus, thanks for putting me right!!!

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Gil, in many ways I think you are right about Marx, but anti-semite he was not, as that linked article by Hal Draper shows (not that you'd disagree).

And the charge that he was a racist is equally flimsy.

But he was abrasive, and fell out with practically everyone he met (a bit like me, then :D ).

But you are far too kind the Engels; although not as abrasive as Marx, and certainly possessed of superior inter-personal skills, he nevetheslss had his dark side.

This comes out in his correspondence.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 07:31 pm

ok so he did make regular insults at jewish and blacks??
I don't think he ever made any insults towards Jews as he was from Jewish background. However, he did make some remarks towards Ferdinand Lassalle that would be considered racist by today's standards.
explain this... just as it was "ok" for slave masters to call blacks "n*ggers" since it wasn't racist then? or what? :rolleyes:

[Question everything]

But he was abrasive, and fell out with practically everyone he met (a bit like me, then ).

You haven't fallen out with me yet, you're the person who explain communism to me so it was more than a passing interest. :blush: :P


explain this... just as it was "ok" for slave masters to call blacks "n*ggers" since it wasn't racist then? or what?

The fact that they were slaves is racist. Them calling the slaves "n*ggers" is not so, or at least not from my understanding (which is somewhat minimal), if I'm not mistaken it is simply a 300 year old equivalent to the term "black" in todays society the fact that racists used it (because most people were racist) got it branded as an awful word. Marx was probably using it simply as what it was back then a term for so-called "blacks". (Please don't destroy me for this post this is only to the best of my knowlegde)

[Janus]

explain this... just as it was "ok" for slave masters to call blacks "n*ggers" since it wasn't racist then? or what?
No, that's not what I'm asserting and also that's a bad analogy. The term "nigger" was a commonly used term back then (and wasn't considered offensive) however it has now become a racist term due to its associations.

You don't know the complete story behind Marx's remarks.

Marx made remarks about Ferdinand Lassalle's physical features and claimed that he had some "negroid" stock. You're right, it definitely was racist but then you also have to examine the historical circumstances back then.

We also had a discussion on this a while back if you wanna check it out:
Marx and Lassalle (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=56161&hl=Marx%20racist&st=25)

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

QE:


You haven't fallen out with me yet, you're the person who explain communism to me so it was more than a passing interest.

I was, of course, merely joshing!

[gilhyle]

Marx's comments on Lassalle were illustrative of Marx's sense of personal bitterness against a rival of whom he strongly disapproved. Marx lived in a society where judgements based on national type, class type, gender type etc. were endemic

We have our own endemic forms of judgement - often the inverse of those.

Marx fell into the charaacteristic forms of judgement of his time, just as we do ours.

Historians come across these kinds of judgements all the time and they generally ignore them. This is because to do otherwise will lead you into an incorrect, a-historical assessent. Anthropologists will generally try to proof their methodologies against falling into similar errors, which are a serious issue for them.

When we come across the rare figure from history who continues to be of current relevance, hi/her opponenets will happily fall into this form of a-historical judgement to condemn them (Thats not to suggest that the whole issue isnt problematic - it is difficult to delineate where such trans-temporal judgements are relevant, although they sometimes are).

I posted here recently

http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=64236&st=25&hl=

my view that racism is primarily a political stance rather than a psychological state It is one of the characteristic (and characteristically false) forms of judgement of our society to try to reduce the political to the personal.

BTW Rosa, having read much of Engels correspondence (Im curretly occasionally leafing through the letters in MECW Vol 50), I'm not that conscious of a 'dark side'. Firm, clear-minded, combative, yes ...bit of a gossip, yes........but hardly a 'dark side'. However, nothing significant depends on it At some level, we all have a 'dark side, I guess ;)