pre-Nazi and Nazi Germany and the Red Front

[SocialistGenius]

Hello,

I have heard some anecdotal reports from comrades stating that if the Red Front had received more support from other sources, most notably if the capitalists hadn't chosen to support fascism in order to maintain their privilege and had instead supported the Red Front's efforts to oust Nazis in the 1930s, that the fascists might have been stopped there. I'm curious what everyone knows about this, and if anyone has links to some facts regarding the issue.

I also was reading about a man named Ernst Thalmann, who apparently lead the KPD (German Communist Party) during the 1920s and 1930s and was put to death by Hitler in 1944. Two things from his Wikipedia article stand out:



During that time [1925-1933] Thälmann and the KPD fought the SPD as their main political enemy, acting according to the Comintern policy which declared Social Democrats and Socialists "social fascist". This policy remained in force until 1935, when the Comintern officially switched to endorsing a "popular front" of socialists, liberals and even conservatives against the Nazi threat. By that time, of course, Hitler had come to power and the KPD had largely been destroyed.


and this:



In his time as head of the KPD, Thälmann closely aligned the German Communists with the hegemony of the Soviet Communist Party in Moscow. Supporters of a more autonomous course were expelled. Clara Zetkin, together with Rosa Luxemburg one of the leading German women communists, described Thälmann as "uninformed and not educated in theory", and as caught in "uncritical self-deception and self-infatuation", which "borders on megalomania". The strategy of the KPD during the Weimar Republic, of treating the SPD as its main political enemy, sharply weakened anti-Nazi forces and thereby contributed to the Nazis' rise to power.


The second part is simply anecdotal references to some of his ideas and his personality.

The first quote, though, is intruiging. The first thing that came to my mind was "so you mean to tell me that while the NAZIS were coming to power these guys [Thalmann, the KPD, and Comintern] were fighting the Social Democrats and Socialists?!?!" The differences between Communists and Nazis juxtaposed with the differences between Communists and Social Democrats/Socialists are well... astronomically huge in comparison. I thought to myself, "save that shit for when there aren't any fascist mass-murderers coming to power!"

Everything I've heard says that the Nazis were a known threat in the latter part of the 1920s.. Thalmann and his party were following the Soviet line which at that time must not have involved fighting the Nazis in Germany. I can only think that if the Red Front hadn't delayed organizing itself until 1935, that the Nazis could have been stopped even without the support of the bourgeois and capitalists. Am I dreaming here?

Also, was the controlling nature of Comintern and the Soviets towards other world Communist Parties such that those who broke with their line would face replacement and/or death? Sounds farfetched, but I can find no other reason why so many CPs throughout the world at that time would have been so subservient towards the Comintern.

Anyway, I'm hoping my illustrious comrades at Revleft can offer some insight here.

[Vargha Poralli]

I have heard some anecdotal reports from comrades stating that if the Red Front had received more support from other sources, most notably if the capitalists hadn't chosen to support fascism in order to maintain their privilege and had instead supported the Red Front's efforts to oust Nazis in the 1930s, that the fascists might have been stopped there. I'm curious what everyone knows about this, and if anyone has links to some facts regarding the issue

Redfront cannot have received any type of support from the capitalists. It will be against the class intrest of Capitalists to support red front. That is why the majority supported the Nazis.


The first quote, though, is intruiging. The first thing that came to my mind was "so you mean to tell me that while the NAZIS were coming to power these guys [Thalmann, the KPD, and Comintern] were fighting the Social Democrats and Socialists?!?!" The differences between Communists and Nazis juxtaposed with the differences between Communists and Social Democrats/Socialists are well... astronomically huge in comparison. I thought to myself, "save that shit for when there aren't any fascist mass-murderers coming to power!"

Unfortunately KPD,Stalin and the Comintern took an ultra left stance during this time which indirectly helped the Nazis.Another part of the blame lies in SPD too. Instead of working together with KPD they trusted Liberals more and supported them who in turn trusted Naziz more than KPD and SPD.

This Chronology of events from Marxixts Internet Archive gives us a clear picture. (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1930-ger/index.htm)



Everything I've heard says that the Nazis were a known threat in the latter part of the 1920s.. Thalmann and his party were following the Soviet line which at that time must not have involved fighting the Nazis in Germany. I can only think that if the Red Front hadn't delayed organizing itself until 1935, that the Nazis could have been stopped even without the support of the bourgeois and capitalists. Am I dreaming here?

We cannot predict what would have happened instead of what had happened in real history. But Nazis never grew in strength after 1927. So if the KPD and SPD had worked together Nazi would have never gained have gained the power like they did in 1933 without firing a shot.The link I gave above explains this fact in detail.



Also, was the controlling nature of Comintern and the Soviets towards other world Communist Parties such that those who broke with their line would face replacement and/or death? Sounds farfetched, but I can find no other reason why so many CPs throughout the world at that time would have been so subservient towards the Comintern.

Because of Stalin's Socialism in one country line. Communists all over the world dedicated themselves in defending the worlds first and only workers state so they obeyed Comintern and Stalin without questioning much. It is the degeneration of the USSR that screwed workers every where. Of course anyone who deviated from the official line were purged.

This subject have discussed here before

Link (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=32686)

[Reuben]

The support of the mainstream right was certainly crucial to Hitler's rise to power. Indeed the first enabling laws were passed by Bruning, while oter figures of the right acquiesced in the de-normalisation and de- constitutionalistion o the office of the chancellor and hence hitler's power.

The thing to understand about the Social democrats and the communists in this period of the german history is that their relationship was crucially conditioned by the fratricide of the attempted german revolution when the SDP had supported the Weimar govenrment in repressing the revolution.

[ComradeOm]

Short answer: No. The window of opportunity for the German Revolution was 1918-1919. By the '30s the German Left was too marginalised to possibly stage a revolution or gain mass support.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

g. ram you are completly wrong and have no understanding of socialism in one country. The reason why the KPD didn't want to align with the SPD and other elements was because of what the SPD had a history of doing to the KPD. The SPD had attacked, killed, and arrested mayday communists! Allying with the SPD at that point would be the same as if I decided to join Wal-Mart in a fight against the Republican party (yes stupid analogy but it should work). Both are completly reactionary and anti-worker. By the 30s however, it became apparent that anything and everything must be thrown in to stop hitler. That's what they did, but it was too late. Point is, you can hardly blame the KPD, they didn't what anyone would do, even if it was a terrible mistake.

On the otherhand though,

when the Communist Party of China forced the KMT to fight with them to kick out the Japanese imperialists, it was a double edged sword. The KMT did significantly less to defeat the fascists than the CPC despite the fact that they held state power and an army. On some occasions, the KMT attacked the CPC. Something similiar could've definatly have happened to the KPD in Germany.

In the end, I think that there were a shitload of mistakes, however it wasn't irrational, especially without hindsight and that both courses would've had drastic consequences

[Vargha Poralli]

g. ram you are completly wrong and have no understanding of socialism in one country.

My knowledge of it is based on facts not on some official Stalinist/Maoist propaganda machine.


The reason why the KPD didn't want to align with the SPD and other elements was because of what the SPD had a history of doing to the KPD. The SPD had attacked, killed, and arrested mayday communists! Allying with the SPD at that point would be the same as if I decided to join Wal-Mart in a fight against the Republican party (yes stupid analogy but it should work). Both are completly reactionary and anti-worker. By the 30s however, it became apparent that anything and everything must be thrown in to stop hitler. That's what they did, but it was too late. Point is, you can hardly blame the KPD, they didn't what anyone would do, even if it was a terrible mistake.

In short KPD took an ultra left stance. The reasons behind its actions is not because SPD hated them but because of Stalin's stance. The blame equally lies with SPD too.They supported Hidenburg who in turn invited Hitler to the post of Chancellor. The rest is unfortunately History.

Your Chinese example is totally ridiculous and has nothing to do with the topic. SPD was not like KMT. The later is a Bourgeoisie Chinese Nationalists while the former is Social Democratic party. And Stalin had no problem working with KMT during Chiangs earlier leadership despite the objections from Chinese cadres(including Mao).

[The Author]

There's actually an interesting piece of information concerning Stalin's position on what to do on upcoming elections concerning pullout from the League of Nations on November 12, 1933, after the Nazis seized power in Germany, and that in practice, Stalin disagreed with the stance taken by the Comintern on boycotting the elections. It comes from the September 2001 issue of RevolutionaryDemocracy, and can be found on this web page here (http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv7n2/electquest.htm). I quote the relevant sections here:


No. 1

Letter from the Political Secretariat of ECCI to Stalin
on the Tactics of the Communist Party of Germany

25 October, 1933
Moscow
Top Secret

In Germany, where the campaign is going on for the elections which are scheduled for 12th November for the Reichstag and the Referendum which is to be held after the exit from the League of Nations and the Disarmament Conference, the situation is such that the chances of affecting the elections in any significant manner do not exist. [There will be a list of national-socialists for the Reichstag and a voting slip for the referendum bearing an option ‘yes’ (signifying approval of the government’s policy) and ‘no’ (against this policy)]. No other option of expressing an opinion of dissatisfaction with the fascist regime exists for a voter participating in the elections. A call given by the Communist Party, for instance, to inscribe ‘Down with Fascism’, ‘Long Live the Communist Party of Germany’, and so on would attract only an insignificant number of voters.

The Cominternists propose to:

(1) Appeal to the voters to boycott the elections.

(2) At the places where the fascists will force voters to participate in the elections, appeal to the voters to cross out the list bearing the names of the national-socialists and the referendum voting slip.

(3) The Communist Party of Germany must conduct its electoral campaign under slogans such as (a) Against the Treaty of Versailles. In the battle against bankers, factory owners, landlords and their defenders – the national socialists; the working class of Germany along with the revolutionary workers of France, England and the whole world will liberate Germany from the yoke of the Treaty of Versailles. (b) Against fascism and war. © Against hunger and terror. (d) Down with the fascist dictatorship. Long live the Worker-Peasant Soviet Republic.

The local leadership of the Communist Party of Germany agrees with the proposals of the Cominternists but the Foreign Bureau of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Germany proposes participating in the elections, crossing out the national-socialist list and voting for the option ‘no’ in the referendum. The foreign leadership of the Social Democratic Party of Germany is also proposing participation in the elections and using the same method of voting as that suggested by the Foreign Bureau of the CC of the CPG.

We concur with the opinion of the Cominternists. It is an urgent question – please communicate your opinion.

RGASPI F. 508. Op. 1. D. 128. L. 27-28.


No. 2

Reply of Stalin to the Letter of the Political Secretariat
of ECCI dated 25th October, 1933.

26 October, 1933
Moscow
Top Secret

The Cominternists are not correct. The boycott proposed by them is not an active boycott in the Bolshevik spirit. It is a simple abstention from elections: simply absenteeism. The Bolsheviks have never observed such a boycott. They observe only active boycott accompanied by revolutionary activities, their aim is to undermine or even to foil the elections. But this, the solely acceptable boycott, is now not possible in Germany. Therefore the Cominternists are wrong and the Foreign Bureau of the Central Committee of the CPG is correct. You must participate in the elections, cross out the fascist list and vote for the option ‘no’ in the referendum. On such a basis you must form an anti-fascist front with the social-democratic workers and lead them so that such an initiative can be undertaken on a communist platform and under their leadership. Any other politics will serve only the interests of the fascists and social-democrats.

Signed: Stalin