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A.J.
24th March 2007, 17:06
A number of Socialists have latterly launched a regular crusade against what they call the principle of authority. It suffices to tell them that this or that act is authoritarian for it to be condemned. This summary mode of procedure is being abused to such an extent that it has become necessary to look into the matter somewhat more closely.

Authority, in the sense in which the word is used here, means: the imposition of the will of another upon ours; on the other hand, authority presupposes subordination. Now, since these two words sound bad, and the relationship which they represent is disagreeable to the subordinated party, the question is to ascertain whether there is any way of dispensing with it, whether — given the conditions of present-day society — we could not create another social system, in which this authority would be given no scope any longer, and would consequently have to disappear.

On examining the economic, industrial and agricultural conditions which form the basis of present-day bourgeois society, we find that they tend more and more to replace isolated action by combined action of individuals. Modern industry, with its big factories and mills, where hundreds of workers supervise complicated machines driven by steam, has superseded the small workshops of the separate producers; the carriages and wagons of the highways have become substituted by railway trains, just as the small schooners and sailing feluccas have been by steam-boats. Even agriculture falls increasingly under the dominion of the machine and of steam, which slowly but relentlessly put in the place of the small proprietors big capitalists, who with the aid of hired workers cultivate vast stretches of land.

Everywhere combined action, the complication of processes dependent upon each other, displaces independent action by individuals. But whoever mentions combined action speaks of organisation; now, is it possible to have organisation without authority?

Supposing a social revolution dethroned the capitalists, who now exercise their authority over the production and circulation of wealth. Supposing, to adopt entirely the point of view of the anti-authoritarians, that the land and the instruments of labour had become the collective property of the workers who use them. Will authority have disappeared, or will it only have changed its form? Let us see.

Let us take by way if example a cotton spinning mill. The cotton must pass through at least six successive operations before it is reduced to the state of thread, and these operations take place for the most part in different rooms. Furthermore, keeping the machines going requires an engineer to look after the steam engine, mechanics to make the current repairs, and many other labourers whose business it is to transfer the products from one room to another, and so forth. All these workers, men, women and children, are obliged to begin and finish their work at the hours fixed by the authority of the steam, which cares nothing for individual autonomy. The workers must, therefore, first come to an understanding on the hours of work; and these hours, once they are fixed, must be observed by all, without any exception. Thereafter particular questions arise in each room and at every moment concerning the mode of production, distribution of material, etc., which must be settled by decision of a delegate placed at the head of each branch of labour or, if possible, by a majority vote, the will of the single individual will always have to subordinate itself, which means that questions are settled in an authoritarian way. The automatic machinery of the big factory is much more despotic than the small capitalists who employ workers ever have been. At least with regard to the hours of work one may write upon the portals of these factories: Lasciate ogni autonomia, voi che entrate! [Leave, ye that enter in, all autonomy behind!]

If man, by dint of his knowledge and inventive genius, has subdued the forces of nature, the latter avenge themselves upon him by subjecting him, in so far as he employs them, to a veritable despotism independent of all social organisation. Wanting to abolish authority in large-scale industry is tantamount to wanting to abolish industry itself, to destroy the power loom in order to return to the spinning wheel.

Let us take another example — the railway. Here too the co-operation of an infinite number of individuals is absolutely necessary, and this co-operation must be practised during precisely fixed hours so that no accidents may happen. Here, too, the first condition of the job is a dominant will that settles all subordinate questions, whether this will is represented by a single delegate or a committee charged with the execution of the resolutions of the majority of persona interested. In either case there is a very pronounced authority. Moreover, what would happen to the first train dispatched if the authority of the railway employees over the Hon. passengers were abolished?

But the necessity of authority, and of imperious authority at that, will nowhere be found more evident than on board a ship on the high seas. There, in time of danger, the lives of all depend on the instantaneous and absolute obedience of all to the will of one.

When I submitted arguments like these to the most rabid anti-authoritarians, the only answer they were able to give me was the following: Yes, that's true, but there it is not the case of authority which we confer on our delegates, but of a commission entrusted! These gentlemen think that when they have changed the names of things they have changed the things themselves. This is how these profound thinkers mock at the whole world.

We have thus seen that, on the one hand, a certain authority, no matter how delegated, and, on the other hand, a certain subordination, are things which, independently of all social organisation, are imposed upon us together with the material conditions under which we produce and make products circulate.

We have seen, besides, that the material conditions of production and circulation inevitably develop with large-scale industry and large-scale agriculture, and increasingly tend to enlarge the scope of this authority. Hence it is absurd to speak of the principle of authority as being absolutely evil, and of the principle of autonomy as being absolutely good. Authority and autonomy are relative things whose spheres vary with the various phases of the development of society. If the autonomists confined themselves to saying that the social organisation of the future would restrict authority solely to the limits within which the conditions of production render it inevitable, we could understand each other; but they are blind to all facts that make the thing necessary and they passionately fight the world.

Why do the anti-authoritarians not confine themselves to crying out against political authority, the state? All Socialists are agreed that the political state, and with it political authority, will disappear as a result of the coming social revolution, that is, that public functions will lose their political character and will be transformed into the simple administrative functions of watching over the true interests of society. But the anti-authoritarians demand that the political state be abolished at one stroke, even before the social conditions that gave birth to it have been destroyed. They demand that the first act of the social revolution shall be the abolition of authority. Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon — authoritarian means, if such there be at all; and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionists. Would the Paris Commune have lasted a single day if it had not made use of this authority of the armed people against the bourgeois? Should we not, on the contrary, reproach it for not having used it freely enough?

Therefore, either one of two things: either the anti-authoritarians don't know what they're talking about, in which case they are creating nothing but confusion; or they do know, and in that case they are betraying the movement of the proletariat. In either case they serve the reaction.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works...0/authority.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm)

blake 3:17
24th March 2007, 18:09
I agree with Engels "On Authority" -- unfortunately I think it has been used to justify antidemocratic measures for their own sake rather than for defense purposes.

There's been intersting thinking on the question of authority and socialism in the wake of the failures and limits of the 20th century's revolutions.

Take a look at the Fourth International's 1985 document The Dictatorship of the proletariat and socialist democracy. (http://www.internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article921) I think it provides some useful foundations and proposals for justice and democratic rights in socialist society.

ComradeOm
24th March 2007, 18:27
I've always been fond of this article and specifically the line: "revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is", which is usually paraphrased as "revolution is the most authoritarian act imaginable." Its something I roll out any time someone goes into hysterics about "anti-authoritarianism".

Certainly the use of the phrase "authoritarian" by many on the Left today is one of the most amazingly stupid critiques regularly doled out. It smacks of pure idealism and nothing less. The more things change...

Lamanov
25th March 2007, 01:01
Yes, I've read this text months ago.

It seems to me that both Engels and "anti-authoritarians" he was debating see no difference between separate-imposed authority and voluntary submission to collective decision making.

Isn't it surprising how Engels [almost?] approves workplace coercion? Isn't it surprising how he sees that organization cannot exist without authority (and other way arround)?*

So, to sum it up, this is one confusing and contradictory text, indeed, just like the people of that time lacking real experience in actual struggle of the working class.

But we know better today... or do we?

* I can say for sure that Marx never shared Engels' confusions.

RedLenin
25th March 2007, 01:14
Isn't it surprising how Engels [almost?] approves workplace coercion?
Engels is simply saying that, even in a socialist workplace, some submission to authority will exist. Such submission can be simply the submission of the minority to the will of the majority, ie democracy. Workplace democracy still involves authority in this respect.


Isn't it surprising how he sees that organization cannot exist without authority (and other way arround)?*
And he is right. Even the most democratic of structures involve the submission of the minority to the will of the majority. You cannot get rid of all authority, at least as it is being defined by Engels.


this is one confusing and contradictory text
No, Engels is very clear. He is attacking the stupid anarchist slogan of abolishing "authority". Engels was actually a very "libertarian" writer, writing over and over again about the necessity of proletarian democracy and self-management, even going so far as to use the word "commune" as opposed to "state".


* I can say for sure that Marx never shared Engels' confusions."
Really? I am quite sure that Marx and Engels fought together against anarchist ideology and it's absurd position on authority. Marx frequently spoke out against Bakunin's ideas, the main one being the demand for the immediate end of the state and all authority. Engels is putting forth the same opinion as Marx on this question.

Lamanov
25th March 2007, 02:54
Some submission to authority? Right. "Very clear" position.

First of all, authority means one way communication which rests on coercion. "Workplace democracy" eliminates authority within the workplace collective because its decisions and actions are two way, and it necessarily rests on dialogue.

Besides, nowhere it is said that by "proletarian democracy" a minority group is supposed to accept and execute tasks voted out by others. Possibility and necessity for "freely joined labor" rest on the fact that "freely associated labor" is born out of natural/social need and created through direct communication between the producers. Re-introduction of coercion for execution of self-imposed decisions only prolongs the need for further labor division.

Organization surely can exist without authority. Authority cannot exist without hierarchy. Self-organization ("self-management") removes hierarchy through collective decision making and two way communication and thus eliminates the structure on which authority rests.

We had councils experience to see it. Engels and 19th ct. anarchists didn't.

RedLenin
25th March 2007, 03:14
because its decisions and actions are two way, and it necessarily rests on dialogue.
Authority is the submission of some people to the will of others. Even in a "two-way" relationship based on dialogue you do not eliminate authority. If a workplace assembly is going to decide on how the production quota is going to be met, there will be a majority of the workplace that votes in favor of a given plan. Likewise, there will be a minority who votes against it. Regardless, this minority will be forced to submit to the decisions of others, the majority. This is what Engels was refering to, the fact that democracy involves authority, though in a different form.


nowhere it is said that by "proletarian democracy" a minority group is supposed to accept and execute tasks voted out by others.
What? Are you serious? So are you not in favor of democracy, in the sense of free discussion, voting, and carrying out the decision of the majority? If we democratically plan the economy in a way in which all workplaces can elect a delegate to represent them in the planning process, and consumers councils for the same purpose, and we vote on an economic plan to implement, you would not support the conformity of the loosing minority to the economic plan? Do you think that workplaces who voted against the plan should not have to "accept and execute tasks voted on by others"? Conformity of the minority to the decision of the majority is the essence of democracy, so I don't know what you would propose we do with the economy or social organization. Please correct me if I have misunderstood your above statement.

ComradeOm
25th March 2007, 14:00
Originally posted by DJ-[email protected] 25, 2007 12:01 am
Isn't it surprising how Engels [almost?] approves workplace coercion? Isn't it surprising how he sees that organization cannot exist without authority (and other way arround)?*
This is exactly what I'm talking about. You see the word "authority" and you simply freak out. Try reading the piece again and take the specific example given.


The workers must, therefore, first come to an understanding on the hours of work; and these hours, once they are fixed, must be observed by all, without any exception.What is Engels saying here? Does he mention managers or elections or whatever specifics you need? No. The authority that he speaks of is derided from the workers themselves. The times are fixed by the mill workers and all agree to obey them. In this way the authority of the capitalists, and industry, is replaced by that of the workers.

That's the key. When people like yourself hear the word "authority" they start babbling on about "coercion" and "Leninists" and "authoritarianism" and its all bullshit. Why is it that the idea of workers acting as a group and imposing their own authority is so alien to you?

Lamanov
25th March 2007, 18:10
Originally posted by RedLenin+--> (RedLenin)Do you think that workplaces who voted against the plan should not have to "accept and execute tasks voted on by others"?[/b]

Yes.

By the way, those "production quotas" (if such would even exist in such a manner) are voted out after a consensus, a dialogue. Thus, it is no necessity that anyone has to "obey" something they did not agree upon. When, on the other hand, you "obey" what you yourself had called for or voted for, it is firstly voluntary, and secondly no submission to any "authority".


Originally posted by RedLenin+--> (RedLenin)Conformity of the minority to the decision of the majority is the essence of democracy, so I don't know what you would propose we do with the economy or social organization. Please correct me if I have misunderstood your above statement.[/b]

Direct democracy finds its essence in direct acting, without representation. Insted of making a blueprint, why don't you leave it up to the workers?

Let's take an example: council of workplace delegates decides by a majority vote to produce so much use values. One section cannot comply simply because it has no time and power. They are supposed to "obey"? Of course not. If such use values are needed in such quantity, changes in production must be allowed, and that type of organization breaks up the labor division (and encourages free labor flow and free joining) -- which is one of the objectives towards the emancipation of labor -- while central planning and accorded compliance and coercion only encourage it.

Why don't you leave aside what you imagined and take into consideration what is important?


[email protected]
This is exactly what I'm talking about. You see the word "authority" and you simply freak out.

"Freak out", huh? :rolleyes:


ComradeOm
What is Engels saying here? Does he mention managers or elections or whatever specifics you need? No. The authority that he speaks of is derided from the workers themselves. The times are fixed by the mill workers and all agree to obey them. In this way the authority of the capitalists, and industry, is replaced by that of the workers.

That's the key. When people like yourself hear the word "authority" they start babbling on about "coercion" and "Leninists" and "authoritarianism" and its all bullshit. Why is it that the idea of workers acting as a group and imposing their own authority is so alien to you?

The first paragraph contradicts the second one: indeed, Engels speaks of consensus, a work group collective decision making. But he is wrong in calling it 'authority'. The "bullshit" about the Leninists however, is no bullshit at all, because, precisely contradicting your statement, Lenin himself (and his followers) imposed planning, managers, authority of the agents of capital and state, coercion, the Taylor sistem, militarization of labor against workplace decision making, factory committees, "authority derided from the workers themselves", "workers acting as a group and imposing their authority", and all "alien to me" [sic!].

Engels did create a confusing statement. Lenin picked up on it. You're just trying to reconcile confused with abused, and use the "anti-authoritarians are full of shit" argument.

Labor Shall Rule
25th March 2007, 19:14
Originally posted by DJ-[email protected] 25, 2007 12:01 am
Yes, I've read this text months ago.

It seems to me that both Engels and "anti-authoritarians" he was debating see no difference between separate-imposed authority and voluntary submission to collective decision making.

Isn't it surprising how Engels [almost?] approves workplace coercion? Isn't it surprising how he sees that organization cannot exist without authority (and other way arround)?*

So, to sum it up, this is one confusing and contradictory text, indeed, just like the people of that time lacking real experience in actual struggle of the working class.

But we know better today... or do we?

* I can say for sure that Marx never shared Engels' confusions.
Engels is critiquing a problem of language. The crux, the essence of our dispute with the anarchists are these infantile language games. Bakunin, and other prominent anarchists, have admitted that they do not submit to "all authority", but rather, all "hierarchal authority". However, there is no such thing as an authority that is non-hierarchical. The existence of authority presupposes a hierarchy, if words continue to have meaning.

Engels does argue for cooperation, but that is merely a portion of a large argument he is making. In every example he uses, there are examples of a necessary submission to authority. He writes that "the will of the single individual will always have to subordinate itself, which means that questions are settled in an authoritarian way." Subordination means hierarchy - at the very least, between those who are in the majority and the dissenters in the minority! Whenever you give up your individual will, your autonomy, to participate in a group effort, "joint activity", you are submitting yourself to an authority, to a will that is not your own, that has been vested by the people involved with the power to make and/or carry out decisions. These decision-making bodies would also include these workers' clubs or committees that DJ-TC has written about.

chimx
25th March 2007, 22:58
I agree with ComradeOm that words like "authority" have taken on an unconvincingly dubious form thanks to over a century of anarchist dogma, but what DJ-TC is hinting at, is that there is an obvious distinction that has to be made between necessary and unnnecessary coercion.

Obviously any job requires some degree of lost autonomy. Be it due to the tools and materials you are working with (e.g.: steam), or the manner of divisioned labor. But just because anarchists acknowledge the necessity of lost "autonomy" to natural forces, doesn't imply acquiescing to the loss of autonomy at the hands of party or beauracracy.

It should be up to the individuals and workers to decide what is and isn't acceptable authority in their work places and lives. Personally, I would like to think of anarchism as a recurring staccato on these sorts of power relationships, so that we can challenge them when they prove to be unnecessarily detrimental to individual autonomy, but accept them when they are necessary for proper societal functioning.

blake 3:17
26th March 2007, 00:47
QUOTE (RedLenin)
Do you think that workplaces who voted against the plan should not have to "accept and execute tasks voted on by others"?



Yes.

By the way, those "production quotas" (if such would even exist in such a manner) are voted out after a consensus, a dialogue. Thus, it is no necessity that anyone has to "obey" something they did not agree upon. When, on the other hand, you "obey" what you yourself had called for or voted for, it is firstly voluntary, and secondly no submission to any "authority".


QUOTE (RedLenin)
Conformity of the minority to the decision of the majority is the essence of democracy, so I don't know what you would propose we do with the economy or social organization. Please correct me if I have misunderstood your above statement.



Direct democracy finds its essence in direct acting, without representation. Insted of making a blueprint, why don't you leave it up to the workers?


What if a group of workers wants to produce pollutants or weapons that others want banned? What about a group of racist teachers refusing to teach Arabs? Or nurses that wouldn't treat gay men or lesbians?

ComradeOm
26th March 2007, 14:26
Originally posted by DJ-TC+March 25, 2007 05:10 pm--> (DJ-TC @ March 25, 2007 05:10 pm)(Valid)

The first paragraph contradicts the second one: indeed, Engels speaks of consensus, a work group collective decision making. But he is wrong in calling it 'authority'.

(Ranting)

The "bullshit" about the Leninists however, is no bullshit at all, because, precisely contradicting your statement, Lenin himself (and his followers) imposed planning, managers, authority of the agents of capital and state, coercion, the Taylor sistem, militarization of labor against workplace decision making, factory committees, "authority derided from the workers themselves", "workers acting as a group and imposing their authority", and all "alien to me" [sic!].

Engels did create a confusing statement. Lenin picked up on it. You're just trying to reconcile confused with abused, and use the "anti-authoritarians are full of shit" argument.[/b]
You're still not getting it. There is no such thing as "good" authority or "bad" authority - just authority. The only differences begin to emerge when you examine the source of this authority and who is being subordinated.

Where is the contradiction? Where are the complications? Engels simply points out that in post-revolution society authority will not disappear. It will merely take a different form as the workers impose their own will on the workplace and other classes. This is basic stuff.

This is not a difficult concept and certainly one that does not require you launching onto tangents about "Leninists." Incidentally your post above is a perfect example of this babbling and "freaking out" encountered when the language of anarchists is criticised. I've had to split it up to separate the comments relating to the article and the rant.

Now if you have a point besides how "wrong" Engels is to criticise the slavish devotion that the anarchist movement has to "anti-authoritarianism" or to dredge up irrelevant criticisms of "Leninism" then by all means let's hear it.


chimx
I agree with ComradeOm that words like "authority" have taken on an unconvincingly dubious form thanks to over a century of anarchist dogma, but what DJ-TC is hinting at, is that there is an obvious distinction that has to be made between necessary and unnnecessary coercion.Why? Obviously authority that derives from the workers themselves is preferable but that does not change the nature of authority itself. Note that this article isn't talking about specific councils or soviets or other specific measures. Its tackling authority in a very abstract manner.

chimx
26th March 2007, 15:57
Obviously authority that derives from the workers themselves is preferable but that does not change the nature of authority itself.

Instead of looking at it in terms of "good" or "bad" authority, not not necessary or unnecessary? Yes, authority as an abstraction is going to exist forever to some degree, is anybody really challenging that? We're talking about people who use this to justify unnecessarily destroying worker control.

Lamanov
26th March 2007, 23:37
Originally posted by blake 3:17+--> (blake 3:17)What if a group of workers wants to produce pollutants or weapons that others want banned? What about a group of racist teachers refusing to teach Arabs? Or nurses that wouldn't treat gay men or lesbians?[/b]

Who says that majority would vote to ban certain weapons, to remove discrimination against Arabs, gays, etc.? If you put this in its proper context, you might see how things change with bypassing authoritative measures. No one says that there will not be a set of voted out rules that protect general security. Weapons still belong to workplace collectives that form millitias.

We're talking about something else: we're talking about day to day decisions that might or might not, should or should not involve coercion.


Originally posted by [email protected]
Why? Obviously authority that derives from the workers themselves is preferable but that does not change the nature of authority itself. Note that this article isn't talking about specific councils or soviets or other specific measures. Its tackling authority in a very abstract manner.

That's its main defect. Why would we deal with abstract elements torn out of specific context?

Workers acting against the boss, expropriation and insurrection against bourgeois state and workplace, are authoritative actions. They involve violence. It's class war. Class against class is an authoritative relation. That's clear as day.

But workers making collective decisions and rules and obeying those decisions and rules -- is that authority? Over who? Over itslef? 'Collective' over 'individual'? Where's violence and coercion? If yes, that word loses its meaning, in general, since every act either mental or social turns out to be 'authoritative'.


ComradeOm
Where is the contradiction? Where are the complications? Engels simply points out that in post-revolution society authority will not disappear. It will merely take a different form as the workers impose their own will on the workplace and other classes. This is basic stuff.

I don't think that only form changes. Content changes in its essence, with essential change in relations.

Is acceptance of directly created decisions and rules submission to authority?

blake 3:17
30th March 2007, 03:20
Who says that majority would vote to ban certain weapons, to remove discrimination against Arabs, gays, etc.? If you put this in its proper context, you might see how things change with bypassing authoritative measures.

Good call.

RedArmyFaction
24th June 2007, 15:32
good essay. very informative