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Grava
23rd March 2007, 23:23
I was talking to a friend, when she mentioned how over spring break she wanted to finish Atlas Shrugged. That led to a small debate about communism and Objectivism, but since we had to go to class we decided to finish it up after we got back. Now even though her idea’s of socialism come from Ayn Rand and 1984 I can defend myself. The problem is that I don’t know much about Ayn Rand’s Objectivism. So what’s it about?

rouchambeau
23rd March 2007, 23:39
I find it hilarious that your friend is learning about "socialism" from a couple of novels.

redcannon
24th March 2007, 01:18
I can't believe we haven't burned every word that Ayn Rand ever wrote. You should cite the New Lanark colony in Great Britain. It was a socialist community that thrived. I wouldn't wiki it, wikipedia's article is a bit biased.

Demogorgon
24th March 2007, 01:38
Atlus Shrugged is one of the worst books ever written. Getting an objective view of socialism from it is like trying to get an objective view of judaism from Mein Kampf.

Trying to argue with objectivists though is an interesting experience because their favourite tactic is to redefine the meanings of words. Watch out for words such as "freedom", "rational", "coercion", "values" and "rights" because they will mean something very different coming from an objectivist than from anyone else.

Basically the philosophy says capitalism is a great moral system and anyone who disagrees is by definition evil. The only thing you can do with objectivists is wait until they grow out of it, which they thankfully, usually do.

Demogorgon
24th March 2007, 01:40
Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 12:18 am
I can't believe we haven't burned every word that Ayn Rand ever wrote. You should cite the New Lanark colony in Great Britain. It was a socialist community that thrived. I wouldn't wiki it, wikipedia's article is a bit biased.
Don't bother, I have brought up New Lanark myself with them on several ccaions They just say that Robert Owen was an evil man who hated freedom and everyone in the place was degenerate.

Something to bear in mind is that objectivists believe it is wrong to base your conclusions on empirical evidence (I kid you not), they believe everything has to come through an internal thought process. So they wont care about any pracitcal application.

Raúl Duke
24th March 2007, 03:14
Something to bear in mind is that objectivists believe it is wrong to base your conclusions on empirical evidence (I kid you not), they believe everything has to come through an internal thought process. So they wont care about any pracitcal application.

If this is the case, they're delusional....ande debating with delusional people is near to impossible.

I mean, in your mind you can make capitalism whatever you want; hell, you can even define slavery as a utopia in your mind....in other words....you can delude yourself with naive ideas like that capitalism is the "greatest good" (I suppose thats the power of imagination :lol: )

If they don't connect their ideas to reality, than any rational person whould consider them delusional.

Demogorgon
24th March 2007, 03:17
Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 02:14 am

Something to bear in mind is that objectivists believe it is wrong to base your conclusions on empirical evidence (I kid you not), they believe everything has to come through an internal thought process. So they wont care about any pracitcal application.

If this is the case, they're delusional....ande debating with delusional people is near to impossible.

I mean, in your mind you can make capitalism whatever you want; hell, you can even define slavery as a utopia in your mind....in other words....you can delude yourself with naive ideas like that capitalism is the "greatest good" (I suppose thats the power of imagination :lol: )

If they don't connect their ideas to reality, than any rational person whould consider them delusional.
you have the measure of them exactly. They define capitalism as something quite different from what it really is.

Incidentally they don't say it is for the greatest good. That kind of thinking once again falls under their definition of evil. They ave a very strict moral code based on "rights". And they say capitalism is the only way to guarantee rights. Property of course being the right of primary interest to them.

вор в законе
24th March 2007, 04:02
Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 12:38 am
Watch out for words such as "freedom", "rational", "coercion", "values" and "rights" because they will mean something very different coming from an objectivist than from anyone else.
And ''reason''.

The objectivists claim that everyone should make their choices according to ''reason''. By ''reason'' they mean the pursue of self-fulfillment or happiness instead of sacrificing their well being for others.

Thus according to Ayn Rand, a mother protecting or raising her child, at the cost of her happiness, makes absolutely no sense.

They are very easily won in an argument, just tell her/him that ''happiness'' can not be achieved merely by being egocentric because humans are by nature social beings, they can not live without others, otherwise we wouldn't have societies.

Demogorgon
24th March 2007, 04:38
Originally posted by Red Brigade+March 24, 2007 03:02 am--> (Red Brigade @ March 24, 2007 03:02 am)
[email protected] 24, 2007 12:38 am
Watch out for words such as "freedom", "rational", "coercion", "values" and "rights" because they will mean something very different coming from an objectivist than from anyone else.
And ''reason''.

The objectivists claim that everyone should make their choices according to ''reason''. By ''reason'' they mean the pursue of self-fulfillment or happiness instead of sacrificing their well being for others.

Thus according to Ayn Rand, a mother protecting or raising her child, at the cost of her happiness, makes absolutely no sense.

They are very easily won in an argument, just tell her/him that ''happiness'' can not be achieved merely by being egocentric because humans are by nature social beings, they can not live without others, otherwise we wouldn't have societies. [/b]
Oh yes, knew I was forgetting one. The case you cite of children is interesting. It has often been noted that in Ayn Rand's books, despite the fact that they span a time frame of decades, nobody has any children, and indeed neither Rand nor most of her followers had children. I am not saying that they were somehow obliged to, but it does show their attitude there. Similarly a lot of them (though not all) dissaprove of pets, because people tend to be nice to their pets and the pets don't give anything material back. A very unhealthy attitude if you ask me.

And yes, I wish I could remember which philosopher brought it up, but a major criticism of egoism is that if somebody only seeks their own happiness they will never succeed because they have nothing to be happy about. Still again, while that sounds like "case closed" to me, don't expect an objectivist to accept it.

YSR
24th March 2007, 07:39
Read Kropotkin's Mutual Aid. Extrapolate. End of story.

chimx
24th March 2007, 18:05
Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 12:38 am
Atlus Shrugged is one of the worst books ever written.
I disagree. Atlas Shrugged is a classic and extremely well written. It also has one of the best titles in the history of fiction in my opinion.

Do you also discount Dostoevsky because of his love of Christian mysticism? Kundera for his hatred of Communism?

Demogorgon
25th March 2007, 01:09
Originally posted by chimx+March 24, 2007 05:05 pm--> (chimx @ March 24, 2007 05:05 pm)
[email protected] 24, 2007 12:38 am
Atlus Shrugged is one of the worst books ever written.
I disagree. Atlas Shrugged is a classic and extremely well written. It also has one of the best titles in the history of fiction in my opinion.

Do you also discount Dostoevsky because of his love of Christian mysticism? Kundera for his hatred of Communism? [/b]
Oh come on it is trashy paperback fiction, full of ridiculous melodrama and preposterous plot lines. The only notable thing about it is it sold well.

Luís Henrique
25th March 2007, 16:53
Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 05:05 pm
Do you also discount Dostoevsky because of his love of Christian mysticism? Kundera for his hatred of Communism?
Don't ever mention Dostoevsky and Kundera in the same sentence; it is a sin against the muses.

And, as much as I loathe Kundera's pre-school teacher didacticism, also never use him as an excuse for Zinovieva. Bad taste has also grades.

Luís Henrique

Raúl Duke
25th March 2007, 17:00
They ave a very strict moral code based on "rights". And they say capitalism is the only way to guarantee rights. Property of course being the right of primary interest to them.

:rolleyes: yeah..capitalism gives you lots of rights.....BUT only if you're a capitalist/rich!

workers have more "rights" than peasants, but the issue is that capitalist has more "rights" than the worker, just like the feudal lords had more "rights" than the peasant.

The main issue here is inequality of "rights", something inherent in all class societies (or, vice versa, a property of class societies.)

To claim that capitalism maximizes the most "rights" is stupid...unless you're a capitalist.

If the objectivists are looking for a society that maximizes all "rights" for everyone, they would have to abolish class system.

Demogorgon
25th March 2007, 17:43
Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 04:00 pm

They ave a very strict moral code based on "rights". And they say capitalism is the only way to guarantee rights. Property of course being the right of primary interest to them.

:rolleyes: yeah..capitalism gives you lots of rights.....BUT only if you're a capitalist/rich!

workers have more "rights" than peasants, but the issue is that capitalist has more "rights" than the worker, just like the feudal lords had more "rights" than the peasant.

The main issue here is inequality of "rights", something inherent in all class societies (or, vice versa, a property of class societies.)

To claim that capitalism maximizes the most "rights" is stupid...unless you're a capitalist.

If the objectivists are looking for a society that maximizes all "rights" for everyone, they would have to abolish class system.
Of course, but do you think they care about that? Another thing about them is that they tend to think if someone is rich obviously they are a deserving person and similarly a poor person is an undeserving person.

chimx
25th March 2007, 18:08
Don't ever mention Dostoevsky and Kundera in the same sentence; it is a sin against the muses.

:)

Oddly enough I enjoy books like Life is Elsewhere far more than The Brothers Karamazov. Alyosha was such a fuckin' tool...

Jesus Christ!
25th March 2007, 18:11
Objectivists cannot escape their class and subsequently think in their class interest. As was brought up they discuss freedom based on their own experiences of freedom. This experience is obviously much different than the working class's experience of freedom. This is also why the don't take from empirical evidence and would rather take from their inner notions. Their inner notions tell them that what they know as their freedom is freedom and is derived from the capitalist system. This allows them to ignore any empirical evidence of the destruction capitalism causes.

BurnTheOliveTree
25th March 2007, 18:56
Simply point out the desperately irritating heroes of her books. To be honest, if she buys Rand's ultra-individualist shit and defends it, you may be in for a frustrating debate.

-Alex

FOREVER LEFT
25th March 2007, 19:08
Every leftist should read Ayn Rand because you need to know your enemy--- that is how they think and what they believe! I hate her though. She's such a selfish whore.