How would the Amish be described?

[Omega]

What do people here think fo the Amish way of doing things? They have a very strong community and I know of no other example of one so close and helpful to each other.

However they own private property, live in a capitalistic economy and live by a very strict set of rules.

I do not think it can be said that materialism or egotism can be attributed to them as faults.

[RedCeltic]

The Amish, like the Shakers, and Hunterites are Christian communalists. I think alot of it comes from the idea that John The Baptist came from such a community. It is the community in which wrote the dead sea scrolls.

[Idola Mentis]

I guess you can't fault a community for making its own rules, as long as it's self-sustained and the members are free to leave whenever they want. Of course, the bonds of family, property, religious indoctrination and ignorance stretches the definition of "freedom" to leave to the limit.

[MrDoom]

I do not think it can be said that materialism or egotism can be attributed to them as faults.
No, but feudal reactionary idealism can.

[ichneumon]

they are a very successful, sustainable but primitivist subculture. they in no way try to recruit or expand, which i admire, and they have shown great persistence against consumer capitalism. one of the prime examples of why communism shouldn't reject religion - it *works*.

still, i have no desire to live amishly, nor is it a model for the rest of the world.

[Omega]

Originally posted by patton+March 23, 2007 03:10 pm--> (patton @ March 23, 2007 03:10 pm)
[email protected] 23, 2007 08:40 am
What do people here think fo the Amish way of doing things? They have a very strong community and I know of no other example of one so close and helpful to each other.

However they own private property, live in a capitalistic economy and live by a very strict set of rules.

I do not think it can be said that materialism or egotism can be attributed to them as faults.
They are a bunch of primitivism loons.[/b]
Please elaborate.

[Omega]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 03:51 pm
they are a very successful, sustainable but primitivist subculture. they in no way try to recruit or expand, which i admire, and they have shown great persistence against consumer capitalism. one of the prime examples of why communism shouldn't reject religion - it *works*.

still, i have no desire to live amishly, nor is it a model for the rest of the world.
You say that they are sucessful but theirs is not a model for the rest of the world.

What elements of their society would you endorse and what ones would you modify or reject?

[Omega]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 02:40 pm

I do not think it can be said that materialism or egotism can be attributed to them as faults.
No, but feudal reactionary idealism can.
Can you expound on this please?

[Idola Mentis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 06:21 pm
They are stuck in the 1800's.
By saying they're stuck, do you mean to imply they're unable to leave the 1800's? Not saying I disagree, but why would you say they are, and where do you think they should be going if they found themselves able to leave?

[Omega]

Originally posted by patton+March 23, 2007 05:21 pm--> (patton @ March 23, 2007 05:21 pm) They are a bunch of primitivism loons.[/b]

Originally posted by [email protected]
Please elaborate.

patton
They are stuck in the 1800's.
I do not thnk they are really "stuck" in the 1800´s but rather choose to stay there. Given the conditions that exist in the modern societies, perhaps that is not such an unwise decision. What makes them, as you say, "Loonies" though?

[Omega]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 05:54 pm

They are under pressure by everyone in there communites to conform or go to hell. They remind me of a cult.
That more or less describes every religion.

The expirence I had with meeting them was many years ago and I saw two different doctrines in their community... the old order "Conservatives" and the New Order "Progressives."

The Old Order is the staunch "Not in the Bible, do not do it."

The New Order have electricity and tractors and such but still hang on to the value system.

[ichneumon]

They are under pressure by everyone in there communites to conform or go to hell. They remind me of a cult.

they are free to leave whenever they want. in fact, they have an 85% return rate of people who leave then come back. why not? it's a pleasant life.


You say that they are sucessful but theirs is not a model for the rest of the world.

What elements of their society would you endorse and what ones would you modify or reject?

their society is fine as a subunit in a larger global society. it's fine if people can leave or join as they wish. in fact, that's probably why it works. but not everyone wants that. some people have the drive to change and grow. furthermore, they do use bit of modern medicine and technology that they probably couldn't sustain without the outside world.

i wouldn't change anything about them. they are happy and they don't bother anyone. i just don't want to live there. frankly, i think our world needs such communes and lots of them for people who aren't well adjusted to information age society.

[Idola Mentis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 06:54 pm
They are under pressure by everyone in there communites to conform or go to hell. They remind me of a cult.
Agreed. From what I've read of them, I find them sorta creepy and cult-like too. But isn't everyone under similar pressure? Since you're not sitting naked in a tree starving to death, I assume you're part of some sort of community. What pressure makes you stay in it, and at what point would that pressure stop being community, fellow feeling, and become coercion?

[Omega]

Originally posted by patton+March 23, 2007 06:16 pm--> (patton @ March 23, 2007 06:16 pm)
Originally posted by Omega+March 23, 2007 05:55 pm--> (Omega @ March 23, 2007 05:55 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 05:21 pm
They are a bunch of primitivism loons.

[email protected]
Please elaborate.

patton
They are stuck in the 1800's.
I do not thnk they are really "stuck" in the 1800´s but rather choose to stay there. Given the conditions that exist in the modern societies, perhaps that is not such an unwise decision. What makes them, as you say, "Loonies" though? [/b]
The fact that they choose to stay 200 years in the past makes me call them loons. Explain why you think it not an unwise decision?[/b]
They do not have to deal with alot of the problems that exist in modern societies.

Their crime rate can just about be said to be non-existent. I heard about one murder that happened about 4 years ago. If I remember the news reports correctly they were at quite at a loss about how to deal with it because that never happened before.

The community has the best stability record I can think of in America…they have been around for over 300 years.

I never heard of them having money or unemployment problems.

And the members have a community to back them up should they get into difficult times.

One can say that they do not have the benefit of the conveniences that the modern world offers. But how much is the security that they enjoy worth?

In another post I have written one of the members here spoke about the importance of the community in the communist system. Everything more or less revolved around the community.
The community controlled the property and the means of production.
The community made decisions about the use of the surplus.
Etc…

Well, here you kind of have that but the property is not owned by the community but rather by the individual.

But, they have collectively decided that this is the way that they will live.

If the property were owned by the community, would this be an example of a communist society?

[freakazoid]

The fact that they choose to stay 200 years in the past makes me call them loons. Explain why you think it not an unwise decision?

What is wrong with liking a different era? Are you saying that because you like computers that everyone else must conform with your beliefs or fear being called a, "loon" Why does everyone have to completely embrace technology?

[More Fire for the People]

They were primitivsts before primitivism was cool.

[Political_Chucky]

Fuck the Amish. You guys are focusing on the wrong parts to why the Amish are so "loon" as you are calling them. They believe in their Ordnung, or set of rules, which include "separation from the world, hard work, a woman's submission to her husband, clothing, refusal to buy life insurance, and many more." This information comes from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnung) (I have some about them but don't really feel like searching for those pages). If they believe that part of the bible, then they must believe the other ridiculous parts of it. I mean really, I don't really care whether or not a person believes in the Bible or in god because to me, if its not hurting anyone one, why should I judge. But in a society like this where it contains you in a community full of propaganda(very close to propaganda fed to us on T.V. for example) and actually oppresses your lifestyle in a way where its impossible to do anything if you’re a women, then this religion is nothing but bullshit.(not saying that others aren't)

They also believe in a separation of the world, very contradictive to Communistic ideals. I don't care whether or not a person is allowed to leave their community, if a person does, they are greatly hindered in getting out in the real world. Even the point that they don't educate their children past the eighth grade is something to be shocked at. Why would "god" want you to have children who could not do more then read and write? This religion is ALMOST as crazy as scientology.

[Lenin II]

Things I admire in the Amish: They are harmless. They keep to themselves. They have a strong communal bind that is an inspiration to us all.

Things I think are stupid: God, the clothes, the rejection of technology, oppression of women, indoctrination of children, religion, the ridiculous facial hair, hard labor all day, whipping children, and pretty much everything else.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

As a very general criticism, how about their rejection of technology leading to a stagnant medical system? They can't be very efficient in combatting disease, or wounds. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that they deal with them very badly. Like an equivalent of cauterisation, or something similar.

-Alex

[freakazoid]

Well when god tells you to live in stone-age your a loon.

Did He tell them that?


As a very general criticism, how about their rejection of technology leading to a stagnant medical system? They can't be very efficient in combatting disease, or wounds. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that they deal with them very badly. Like an equivalent of cauterisation, or something similar.

Not relying on tech doesn't make you more susceptible to diseases. In fact because of tech we have harder to combat diseases. For reasons like people not taking there medicine as long as they should and it changes a little and becomes immune to it. Also you can get most of your medicine from plants, which is what a lot of medicine comes from.


I guess they dont think you need to know more than the basics of reading and writing when your gonna milk cows for the rest of your life.

Actually that is the basic reason.

[Omega]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 06:10 pm
As a very general criticism, how about their rejection of technology leading to a stagnant medical system? They can't be very efficient in combatting disease, or wounds. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that they deal with them very badly. Like an equivalent of cauterisation, or something similar.

-Alex
If I remember correctly, I was told that if one of them gets injured or is in need of medical attention from disease they send them to the hospital and then the congragation makes sure the medical bill is paid.

Also, new order Amish do not reject all technology. I went to visit them when a fellow I know needed to borrow my pick-up truck to take a couple of diesel motors down to them that he sold them. I visited a big...er...barn... it was so big it could not be called a barn anymore...made out of cinder blocks and they had some pretty snappy farming and earth moving equipment there.

[MrDoom]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 09:29 pm
Also, new order Amish do not reject all technology. I went to visit them when a fellow I know needed to borrow my pick-up truck to take a couple of diesel motors down to them that he sold them. I visited a big...er...barn... it was so big it could not be called a barn anymore...made out of cinder blocks and they had some pretty snappy farming and earth moving equipment there.
Of course, no one can stop the wheel of historical progress. Not even man's will.

[ZX3]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 01:10 pm
As a very general criticism, how about their rejection of technology leading to a stagnant medical system? They can't be very efficient in combatting disease, or wounds. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that they deal with them very badly. Like an equivalent of cauterisation, or something similar.

-Alex
The Amish have no objection to modern medicine.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by ZX3+March 26, 2007 05:15 pm--> (ZX3 @ March 26, 2007 05:15 pm)
[email protected] 25, 2007 01:10 pm
As a very general criticism, how about their rejection of technology leading to a stagnant medical system? They can't be very efficient in combatting disease, or wounds. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that they deal with them very badly. Like an equivalent of cauterisation, or something similar.

-Alex
The Amish have no objection to modern medicine. [/b]
What a bunch of idiots, do they not take into account that it only exists thanks to the technologies they do reject and it will only advance through the use of technology they may find distasteful or ungodly or whatever.

[freakazoid]

Why reject technology if god or there cult leader doesn't say to? And dont give me any of that nonsense about them wanting to live that way.


Why is that nonsense? Why does everyone have to live with tech? Why are people not allowed to live a simple life?

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 07:00 pm
Why is that nonsense?
Because it doesn't make any sense.


Why does everyone have to live with tech? Why are people not allowed to live a simple life?
It's not about have to or not being allowed. It's fin that they do it but they are being incredibly STUPID.

[ZX3]

Originally posted by Jazzratt+March 26, 2007 01:50 pm--> (Jazzratt @ March 26, 2007 01:50 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 05:15 pm

[email protected] 25, 2007 01:10 pm
As a very general criticism, how about their rejection of technology leading to a stagnant medical system? They can't be very efficient in combatting disease, or wounds. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that they deal with them very badly. Like an equivalent of cauterisation, or something similar.

-Alex
The Amish have no objection to modern medicine.
What a bunch of idiots, do they not take into account that it only exists thanks to the technologies they do reject and it will only advance through the use of technology they may find distasteful or ungodly or whatever. [/b]
The Amish:

1. They can use telephones, travel in cars, trains or planes.
2. They power their homes with propane, use running water, dishwashers, lamps and the like.
3. They are not uniform, as there are a three branches. The Old order Amish are what people generally think of when they think of the Amish.
4. They are paccifists, and so are exempt from a draft.
5. They are about the last of the successful family farmers in the USA.
6. They do not allow pictures to be hung in their homes (will visistors can take pictures of them and ususally for a price. they are capitalist bastards :D
7. they vote, pay taxes as anyone else.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

Not relying on tech doesn't make you more susceptible to diseases. In fact because of tech we have harder to combat diseases. For reasons like people not taking there medicine as long as they should and it changes a little and becomes immune to it. Also you can get most of your medicine from plants, which is what a lot of medicine comes from.

I'm afraid it does. If an amish cuts himself and refuses to use antiseptics, he will get infected, and probably have to amputate/die. There aren't sufficient quantities of naturally occurring antiseptic to save them, simple as that.

Or surgery. Utterly impossible without technology.

Diptheria, STD's, etc, can't be cured by plants, they require anti-toxins, chemical cures.


ZX3 - What technology do the amish reject, then?

-Alex

[ZX3]

Originally posted by patton+March 26, 2007 06:07 pm--> (patton @ March 26, 2007 06:07 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 08:38 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 01:50 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 05:15 pm

[email protected] 25, 2007 01:10 pm
As a very general criticism, how about their rejection of technology leading to a stagnant medical system? They can't be very efficient in combatting disease, or wounds. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that they deal with them very badly. Like an equivalent of cauterisation, or something similar.

-Alex
The Amish have no objection to modern medicine.
What a bunch of idiots, do they not take into account that it only exists thanks to the technologies they do reject and it will only advance through the use of technology they may find distasteful or ungodly or whatever.
The Amish:

1. They can use telephones, travel in cars, trains or planes.
2. They power their homes with propane, use running water, dishwashers, lamps and the like.
3. They are not uniform, as there are a three branches. The Old order Amish are what people generally think of when they think of the Amish.
4. They are paccifists, and so are exempt from a draft.
5. They are about the last of the successful family farmers in the USA.
6. They do not allow pictures to be hung in their homes (will visistors can take pictures of them and ususally for a price. they are capitalist bastards :D
7. they vote, pay taxes as anyone else.
I have never seen them drive car, i have only seen in there horse bugy thing. [/b]
They don't drive cars or tractors, but they can ride in them.

They don't have telephones in their homes, but can use payphones.

[ZX3]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 05:57 pm

Not relying on tech doesn't make you more susceptible to diseases. In fact because of tech we have harder to combat diseases. For reasons like people not taking there medicine as long as they should and it changes a little and becomes immune to it. Also you can get most of your medicine from plants, which is what a lot of medicine comes from.

I'm afraid it does. If an amish cuts himself and refuses to use antiseptics, he will get infected, and probably have to amputate/die. There aren't sufficient quantities of naturally occurring antiseptic to save them, simple as that.

Or surgery. Utterly impossible without technology.

Diptheria, STD's, etc, can't be cured by plants, they require anti-toxins, chemical cures.


ZX3 - What technology do the amish reject, then?

-Alex
The Amish reject gas powered engines, electricity ect.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

The Amish reject gas powered engines, electricity ect.

If they reject electricity, how do their lamps work? Can you get a propane powered lamp? :wacko: Back to physics class for me I suppose.

In any case, that means they have almost no sophisticated medical equipment. No heart monitor, for example. They must be wasting lives unnecessarily by rejecting technology. And if they are doing this, they are wing nut luddites. If they run to the hospital, they are pseudo-wing-nut-luddite-hypocrites.

-Alex

[ZX3]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 06:19 pm

The Amish reject gas powered engines, electricity ect.

If they reject electricity, how do their lamps work? Can you get a propane powered lamp? :wacko: Back to physics class for me I suppose.

In any case, that means they have almost no sophisticated medical equipment. No heart monitor, for example. They must be wasting lives unnecessarily by rejecting technology. And if they are doing this, they are wing nut luddites. If they run to the hospital, they are pseudo-wing-nut-luddite-hypocrites.

-Alex
They don't live on communes, or inside walled settlements. They are out and about in the community. They go to the places non-Amish might go. You might see them in supermarkets or hardware stores. Non-Amish might live next door to the Amish, and their houses are not particularly noticable (unless one is actively looking for powerlines). You might even go to an Amish restaurant. They live mostly all in the country, in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, New York, Maryland. I read once when they were moving up to northern Maine ( a lot of empty farmland up there, but i don't know its final disposition). But there are Amish living in cities (such as New York City). They don't have churches, but instead rotate their services amongst members homes.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

I'm sure they live independently of the mainstream.


Both out of concern for the effect of a parent's absence on family life, and in order to minimize contact with "English," the Amish prefer to work at home. However, increased prices for farmland and decreasing revenues for low-tech farming have forced many Amish to work away from the farm, particularly in construction and factory-labor, and, in those areas where there is a significant tourist trade, to engage in shopwork and crafts for profit. The Amish are ambivalent about both the consequences of this contact and the commoditization of their culture. The decorative arts play little role in authentic Amish life (though the prized Amish quilts are a genuine cultural inheritance, unlike hex signs), and are in fact regarded with suspicion, as a field where egotism and a display of vanity can easily develop.

They seem to stay on the farm.

Anywho, I'm not quite sure what the relevance of their separateness is, I must say.

But I'm going to bed. Bloody RevLeft. I got in an hour ago, fully intending to hit the hay immediately. :unsure:

-Alex

[freakazoid]

From the wiki, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish#Health_issues
The Amish, especially those of the Old Order, are probably most known for their avoidance of certain modern technologies. The avoidance of items such as automobiles and electricity is largely misunderstood. The Amish do not view technology as evil. Individuals may petition for acceptance of a particular technology in the local community. In some communities, the church leaders meet annually to review such proposals. In others, it is done whenever necessary. Because the Amish, like some Mennonite groups, and unlike the Catholic or Anglican Churches, do not have a hierarchical governing structure, differing communities often have different ideas as to which technological items are acceptable.
Telephone booth set up by an "English" farmer for emergency use by local Amish families.
Telephone booth set up by an "English" farmer for emergency use by local Amish families.

Electricity, for instance, is viewed as a connection to, and reliance on, "the World", the "English", or "Yankees" (the outside world), which is against their doctrine of separation. The use of electricity also could lead to the use of worldly household appliances such as televisions, which would complicate the Amish tradition of a simple life, and introduce individualist competition for worldly goods that would be destructive of community. In certain Amish groups, however, electricity can be used in very specific situations: for example, if electricity can be produced without access to outside power lines. Twelve-volt batteries, with their limited applications, are acceptable to these groups. Electric generators can be used for welding, recharging batteries, and powering milk stirrers. In certain situations, outdoor electrical appliances may be used: lawn mowers (riding and hand-pushed) and string trimmers, for example. Some Amish families have non-electric versions of vital appliances, such as kerosene-powered refrigerators.

Amish communities often adopt compromise solutions involving technology which may seem strange to outsiders. For example, many communities will allow gas-powered farm equipment such as tillers or mowers, but only if they are pushed by a human or pulled by a horse. The reasoning is that Amish farmers will not be tempted to purchase more land to outcompete other farmers in their community if they still have to move the equipment manually. Many Amish communities also accept the use of chemical pesticides and GM crops, forgoing more common Amish organic farming techniques.

The Ordnung is viewed as a guide to community standards, rather than doctrine that defines sin. For example, the four Old Order Amish communities of Allen County, Indiana, are more conservative than most; they use open buggies, even during the winter, and they wear black leather shoes even in the hot summer. The restrictions are not meant to incur suffering. In the 1970s, for example, a farmer near Milan Center, Indiana, was ordered by his bishop to buy a conventional tractor. He had severe progressive arthritis and, with no sons to harness the horses for him, the tractor was seen as a need, rather than a vanity. The rest of the community continued farming with horses.

The Amish will hire drivers and vans, for example, for visiting family, monthly grocery shopping, commuting to the workplace off the farm, though this too is subject to local regulation and variation. The practice increases the geographic reach of the Amish, and decreases isolation: a horse can travel only about 25 miles and then must rest for a considerable period, restricting the Amish to a radius of 12.5 miles from home. Moreover, a horse and buggy can only sustain 10 MPH over an extended distance and so is impractical for emergencies.[7] Regular bus service between Amish communities has been established in some areas. Hiring a taxi is forbidden on Sundays (as is any transfer of money).

The telephone is another technology whose avoidance is often misunderstood. The Amish dislike the telephone because it interferes with their separation from the world; it brings the outside world into the home; it is an intrusion into the privacy and sanctity of the family and interferes with social community by eliminating face-to-face communication. However, some Amish, such as many of those in Lancaster County, use the telephone primarily for out-going calls, but with the added restriction that the telephone not be inside the home, but rather in a phone "booth" or shanty (actually just a small out-building) placed far enough from the house as to make its use inconvenient. Commonly these private phone shanties are shared by more than one family, fostering a sense of community. This allows the Amish to control their communication and not have telephone calls invade their homes, but also conduct business as needed. In the past, the use of public pay phones in town for such calls was more common; today with dwindling availability of pay phones because of increased cellphone use by the non-Amish population, Amish communities are seeing an increase in the private phone shanties. [8] Many Amish, particularly those who run businesses, utilize voice mail service.[9] The Amish will also use trusted "English" neighbors as contact points for passing on family emergency messages. Some New Order Amish will use cellphones and pagers, but most Old Order Amish will not.



I have never seen them drive car, i have only seen in there horse bugy thing.

The only reason you knew that they were Amish was because they were in a "horse buggy thing".




If they reject electricity, how do their lamps work? Can you get a propane powered lamp?

Umm... Have you ever heard of fire?

[BurnTheOliveTree]

Apologies - I just thought lamp in the traditional sense of the word, i.e. Electric.

-Alex

[Pilar]

Most human problams could be solved by one of the great tenants of such societies: Moderation in all things.

Even capitalism would be a lot "easier" to live under were capitalists moderate in the fulfillment of their desires. Most human problems come from an excess of greed for something.

Moderation and kindness (treating those as you would wish to be treated) would eliminate 99% of all of our problems.

But the Amish's views on the world are too strict for me personally. And I'm not a big one on religion.

[RGacky3]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 05:02 pm
Moderation and kindness (treating those as you would wish to be treated) would eliminate 99% of all of our problems.
I second that, and a system that encourages Moderation and Kindness (definately not Capitalism)