Atheist Albania

[grove street]

According to bougerise history on Alabania under the leadership of Enver Hoxha, it became the first full scale Atheist state in history where all religion was brutally oppressed and banned.

I'm having difficulty beleiving this, because modern Albania is mostly a Muslim country. If religion was banned under Enver Hoxha then how can you explain the fact that the majority of Albanians are practising Muslims?

Wouldn't years of so called brutal oppression of religion would result in a mostly atheist country today?

If Enver Hoxha was as brutal against followers of religion as bougerise propaganda would have us beleive, then how would you explain the fact that till this day he is considered a hero by the majority of his people who are mostly Muslims, even amongst the so called Muslim extermists, who fought in Kosovo, Bosnia ect for their Albanian brothers and sisters, he is considered a hero?

[JKP]

As far as I'm concerned, Albania was a theocracy with its personality cult and no right to abortion.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 11:27 am
As far as I'm concerned, Albania was a theocracy with its personality cult and no right to abortion.
Clearly you have no comprehension as to the meaning of the term "theocracy". Now shoo

@grove street: Soviet Russia, prior to 1941, was practically an atheist state. Even in following decades it had low levels of religious participation. I believe that the majority, or a significant minority, of Russians today are openly atheist.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

According to bougerise history on Alabania under the leadership of Enver Hoxha, it became the first full scale Atheist state in history where all religion was brutally oppressed and banned.

You need to read between the lines of the bourgeois historians here.

It's true that Albanian became largely secular. The claim that it became an atheist nation is based partly on Albanian government propaganda, and partly on bourgeois distortions of the same.


I'm having difficulty beleiving this, because modern Albania is mostly a Muslim country.

See, please try to get over the nonsensical media portrayal of Muslim societies. It's not like Muslim societies are composed of raving lunatics and fanatics!

Muslim countries can have secular leadership, and they can be secular societies just as well as any other society.


If religion was banned under Enver Hoxha then how can you explain the fact that the majority of Albanians are practising Muslims?

Actually, as far as I know, religious practice in Albania is not very popular even today.

I was once reading a reactionary book about "Muslim communities worldwide". It launched a stream of the usual bourgeois propaganda against the evil communist regime in Albania which banned religion and demolished mosques and god knows what else. :rolleyes:

Interestingly, the book lamented the fact that Albanian people are still so secularized that the Muslims don't seem too religious. For the author of that book, it was a bad thing to forget Allah and Islamic teachings. :P


Wouldn't years of so called brutal oppression of religion would result in a mostly atheist country today?

It could. And "brutal oppression" of religion is merely a reactionary term for secularization.

Haven't you seen fundamentalist Muslims or fundamentalist Christians raving about the "oppression of religion" just because schools don't teach scriptures?


If Enver Hoxha was as brutal against followers of religion as bougerise propaganda would have us beleive, then how would you explain the fact that till this day he is considered a hero by the majority of his people who are mostly Muslims, even amongst the so called Muslim extermists, who fought in Kosovo, Bosnia ect for their Albanian brothers and sisters, he is considered a hero?

Now you have reached the core of the matter. :)

Comrade Hoxha remains a hero to the Albanian workers and peasants, because they're not as stupid as the bourgeois media is.

The workers and peasants of Albania realize that the socialist regime worked for their class interests, as opposed to the bourgeois-democratic regime today.

[CodeAires]

I know that most Albanians are Muslim, so I wouldn't say it's so for now. Maybe during the bloc years, but not now.

[Whitten]

Access to religious texts including the bible and qu'ran were highly controled during the Hoxha years.

[CodeAires]

^ Thanks. Wasn't sure on that.

[Janus]

Just because religion is repressed doesn't mean that it has necessarily been destroyed. The PRC, under Mao, was considered atheist as well but religion is making a comeback now that the government is loosening control.

[JKP]

the·oc·ra·cy /θiˈɒkrəsi/ Pronunciation Key - [thee-ok-ruh-see]
1.a form of government in which God or a deity is recognized as the supreme civil ruler

That deity being Hoxha


Clearly you have no comprehension as to the meaning of the term "theocracy". Now shoo.

[Prairie Fire]

When Hoxha said that Albania was athiest, they meant the state was athiest. I'm sure people can still practice in their homes.

In addition to Albanias large muslim population, intenrnational Hoxhaists were also not necesarily athiest. I was talking to an old Hoxhaist yesterday, and he is a Iranian Muslim.

JKP:

As far as I'm concerned, Albania was a theocracy with its personality cult and no right to abortion.

Do you ever get tired of being useless? You find any thread about vanguard party figures, and you invade it with the usual bullshit about "persynality cults" and whatever.

Look, read Marx, Engles, Lenin, Stalin, as well as Mao and Hoxha. I've read some Kropotkin, so I know what I'm talking about when I talk about anarcho syndicalism.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

Ravenblade, you didn't HAVE to respond to that "argument" at all, did you? :D

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 07:28 pm

the·oc·ra·cy /?i??kr?si/ Pronunciation Key - [thee-ok-ruh-see]
1.a form of government in which God or a deity is recognized as the supreme civil ruler

That deity being Hoxha


Clearly you have no comprehension as to the meaning of the term "theocracy". Now shoo.
That's upsurd. Hoxha followed the scientific theory of marxism-leninism. Theocracies follow a religion, and relgions are not scientific. They rely on great leaps of faith and fairy tales why Marxism relies on dialectical materialism. To compare Socialism to relgion is upsurd and to compare Hoxha to a god is also upsurd. Never has a socialist leader been promoted as "god" or a
"deity" that is "worshipped" at a church, and has prayers. If you can't tell the difference between "god" and a leader than I shouldn't bother. Certain proletarian leaders are promoted more than others, but this doesn't make them "god". To propose such is upsurd!

[Demogorgon]

Part of Hoxha's propoganda was that the state had become atheistic. Religion was still legal though, if highly discouraged. A practicing member of the church certainlycouldn't join the party for example

[Prairie Fire]

I was reading a book entitled " Talk of the devil", by Riccardo Orizio. The book is all about interviews with fallen despots (or those accused of being despots), or interviews with their kin.

Along with the usual suspects ( Idi Amin, Jean Bedel Bokassa, Baby doc Duvalier...),
There is a criticism of Enver Hoxha.

Of course, Hoxha was dead for over a decade when this book was researched, hence the idea of interviewing him was problematic. Hence, the author decided to interview his widow Nexhimije, who was imprisoned at the time.

Most of his analysis of Albania under the PPSH was laughable, including his remarks on the infamous, scandalous bunkers :D . Still, his interview with Nexhimije Hoxha, a persyn who knew Enver better than most, and an integral part of the PPSH since the time of the resistance, is quite useful.

Anyways, on the atheism in Albania ,Nexhimije said: "But Enver had no wish to destroy churches and mosques. It was our Chinese allies, who were the only ones helping us financially and militarily,and the younger members of the party who forced that on him. Enver and I only wanted Muslims,Orthodox Christians and Catholics to live peaceably side by side. And we were right. We wanted everyone to feel they were just Albanians. And see what is happening now in the Balkans as the result of religious and ethnic conflicts. History will prove us right. *

On a more curiosity note, the author takes the bizzare point of view that Enver was
Nexhimije's puppet, hopelessly whipped. :lol: That's dumb, but funny.

*Translated from Italian.

[JKP]

Originally posted by LeftyHenry+March 23, 2007 04:38 pm--> (LeftyHenry @ March 23, 2007 04:38 pm)
[email protected] 23, 2007 07:28 pm

the·oc·ra·cy /?i??kr?si/ Pronunciation Key - [thee-ok-ruh-see]
1.a form of government in which God or a deity is recognized as the supreme civil ruler

That deity being Hoxha


Clearly you have no comprehension as to the meaning of the term "theocracy". Now shoo.
That's upsurd. Hoxha followed the scientific theory of marxism-leninism. Theocracies follow a religion, and relgions are not scientific. They rely on great leaps of faith and fairy tales why Marxism relies on dialectical materialism. To compare Socialism to relgion is upsurd and to compare Hoxha to a god is also upsurd. Never has a socialist leader been promoted as "god" or a
"deity" that is "worshipped" at a church, and has prayers. If you can't tell the difference between "god" and a leader than I shouldn't bother. Certain proletarian leaders are promoted more than others, but this doesn't make them "god". To propose such is upsurd! [/b]
Personality cults promote their deity as a god with "enlightened wisdom".
This is a completely metaphysical concept that is no different from religion since those are only based on the "traditional" cults of Jesus, Mohamed and Buddha.

Watch this video for evidence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dC2aDHtEqk


Along with the numerous statues built of him, Hoxha's propaganda referred to him as "the sole force" of the revolution.

If you want to make the claim that Marxism-Leninism is scientific, that's fine but when personality cults are involved, it becomes totally metaphysical.



Never has a socialist leader been promoted as "god" or a
"deity" that is "worshipped" at a church, and has prayers.

One of the things of being scientifically objective is that we don't just say things based on how want the world to look like, but rather what it objectively is. Thus, you don't make claims with no empirical evidence backing it and in your case, the evidence is against you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dC2aDHtEqk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9MpfzshLOQ

[Ezekiel]

You can't make a state an atheist state by declaring atheism and repressing religion. A country will only be atheist when people give up religion on their own. Trying to make it happen sooner will fuck it up worse.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 07:28 pm

the·oc·ra·cy /θiˈɒkrəsi/ Pronunciation Key - [thee-ok-ruh-see]
1.a form of government in which God or a deity is recognized as the supreme civil ruler

That deity being Hoxha
Clearly you were unable to look up "deity" while you were at it?

A theocracy is a very specific form of government. But hey, no doubt you also feel that Hoxha was a monarch who ruled over a democratic fascist state. Perhaps he was also a heredity king or had an interest in anarcho-totalitarianism?

See what happens when we disregard what words actually mean?

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by JKP+March 24, 2007 05:54 am--> (JKP @ March 24, 2007 05:54 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 04:38 pm

[email protected] 23, 2007 07:28 pm

the·oc·ra·cy /?i??kr?si/ Pronunciation Key - [thee-ok-ruh-see]
1.a form of government in which God or a deity is recognized as the supreme civil ruler

That deity being Hoxha


Clearly you have no comprehension as to the meaning of the term "theocracy". Now shoo.
That's upsurd. Hoxha followed the scientific theory of marxism-leninism. Theocracies follow a religion, and relgions are not scientific. They rely on great leaps of faith and fairy tales why Marxism relies on dialectical materialism. To compare Socialism to relgion is upsurd and to compare Hoxha to a god is also upsurd. Never has a socialist leader been promoted as "god" or a
"deity" that is "worshipped" at a church, and has prayers. If you can't tell the difference between "god" and a leader than I shouldn't bother. Certain proletarian leaders are promoted more than others, but this doesn't make them "god". To propose such is upsurd!
Personality cults promote their deity as a god with "enlightened wisdom".
This is a completely metaphysical concept that is no different from religion since those are only based on the "traditional" cults of Jesus, Mohamed and Buddha.

Watch this video for evidence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dC2aDHtEqk


Along with the numerous statues built of him, Hoxha's propaganda referred to him as "the sole force" of the revolution.

If you want to make the claim that Marxism-Leninism is scientific, that's fine but when personality cults are involved, it becomes totally metaphysical.



Never has a socialist leader been promoted as "god" or a
"deity" that is "worshipped" at a church, and has prayers.

One of the things of being scientifically objective is that we don't just say things based on how want the world to look like, but rather what it objectively is. Thus, you don't make claims with no empirical evidence backing it and in your case, the evidence is against you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dC2aDHtEqk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9MpfzshLOQ [/b]
well that is an extreme example. Also, North Korea is not Marxist-Leninist. It is Juche. It is because of the things like that why most Marxist-Leninists and Marxist-Leninist-Maoists no longer think that the DPRK is socialist. Look, that is an extreme example and is not the same as promoting your leaders work and ideas. All statues are are tributes to leaders. They are placed there my party officials in tribute.

by no means were or are any of these leaders promoted as gods. Yes, there are some countries that promote devotion to their leader but that doesn't come close to "theocracy". To claim that is silly.

[JKP]

well that is an extreme example. Also, North Korea is not Marxist-Leninist. It is Juche. It is because of the things like that why most Marxist-Leninists and Marxist-Leninist-Maoists no longer think that the DPRK is socialist. Look, that is an extreme example and is not the same as promoting your leaders work and ideas. All statues are are tributes to leaders. They are placed there my party officials in tribute.

by no means were or are any of these leaders promoted as gods. Yes, there are some countries that promote devotion to their leader but that doesn't come close to "theocracy". To claim that is silly.


But it's an example nonetheless. Stalin and Mao are only a few notches lower on the cult-o-meter than Kim Sung, but their institutionalized sponsorship of pseudoscience such Lysenkoism, "enlightened leadership" and their respective personality cults place them in the same boat.

As for statues, they may be considered a tribute if the people themselves decide to build one. However, all these statues of Stalin, Mao, and Hoxha were constructed on the orders of their respective leaders. It's absolutely repulsive if you think about it; they themselves decided that were so "great" and "enlightened" that they needed a statue built of them. Worse-they were projecting their egos at the expense of the working class. In Albania for instance, Hoxha decided it was more important to divert resources into self glorification rather than improving the dismal living standards of the population. If the workers really ruled in that state, he would have been shot for that. In fact, Hoxha's wife was arrested for misappropriation of resources after the regime collapsed.


And with that in mind, I find it telling that you apologize for these despots when the deitization of "great leaders" in a supposedly "socialist" country is completely irreconcilable with socialism.

Finally, How would you argue that Juche is not a form of Lenism?

[Prairie Fire]

JKP:

How would you argue that Juche is not a form of Lenism?

Well, while I do not completely reject Juche, it is not necesarily a form of Leninism, as Juche upholds that the military, rather than the proletariat, is the class guiding their revolution. Also, Juche relies heavilly on nationalist sentiments, and overall the Juche idea is very specific to Korea, as there is little about the ideology which can be adapted to the situation of other countries.


In Albania for instance, Hoxha decided it was more important to divert resources into self glorification rather than improving the dismal living standards of the population.

I see :rolleyes: . Presumably, you must be Albanian; more specifically, you must have been a member of the politburo of the PPSH. How else could you possibly have any idea what the decision making process behind the statues was...Unless of course you're a psychic. :D

Where do you get your infomation? How do you have any idea what was going on in Albania, that prompted the building of Statues of Enver? How do you have any idea that the society suffered from the building of said statues? I mean, building statues... that's public works, and therefore job creation. Have you been to Albania? Do you know any Albanians?

I am convinced that many great men who have been idolized throughout history have been the victims of worship, rather than the initiators of it.
Here is a reference text,which I have continually posted, but doubt anyone has taken the time to read it:

http://www.mltranslations.org/Britain/StalinBB.htm

Now, that is just the example with Stalin. Nexhimije Hoxha has also denied that Enver participated, nor encouraged, any self-glorification.


In fact, Hoxha's wife was arrested for misappropriation of resources after the regime collapsed.

:D She was accused of everything, but in the end the charges that led to her incarceration were ridiculous, including Misapropriation of the sum of $300.
Hoxha's son, Ilir was also arrested, and he was not involved in politics. ( Read "My father, Enver Hoxha" by Ilir Hoxha for the account. You can find it online for free.).
Many other key members of the PPSH were put in front of similar kangaroo court
trials, and imprisoned. Ludicrous showtrials, not legitimate in the least.

Berisha's government is a government that arrests people during the night and fires on un-armed protesters; You actually beleive that these trials were fair in the least? :rolleyes:

Your entire argument circles back to the fact that you hate Stalin, Mao, Hoxha, Kim il Sung, etc. Myself, I don't believe I've ever posted on a thread about Trotsky,Bakunin, Kropotkin, etc. I mean, I have no foundness for these persynalities, but that doesn't mean I start shit with on these threads if there is no reason.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Leaders should be promoted but not worshipped. Leaders will emerge because they have experience, knowledge, and organizational skills. The point that RavenBlade makes is valid. Most of these "persynality cults" including the statues, the videos you posted, parades etc... were not the work of the leaders, they were and are the work of those Deng Xioping type characters who change the subject from ideology to personality. This is common in revolutions. The masses are devoted to the leaders who helped organize and carryout a revolution which gave them the land they live on, the education and healthcare they rely on, the national determination that freed them and etc... Deng Xioping for example, was able to win approval trying to associate his line with Mao's. the same goes for Hoxha and Stalin and perhaps even Kim Jong Il and Kim Il Sung. Stalin for example spoke repeatedly against it. For example during a toast in Finland after someone toasted to him he then stood up and said let that be the last toast to me, let us toast to the people or something like that.

[The Author]

Brilliant, a topic about atheism in socialist Albania gets reduced to another rant about "personality cults." And one wonders why I have a quoted phrase from the aforementioned individual about "personality cults" in my signature.

I agree with grove street's and Spirit of Spartacus's comments on the secularization of society in Albania. You can say the same for the Central Asian Soviet Republics of the U.S.S.R., and the Xinjiang Autonomous Region and Tibet in the P.R.C., which in pre-revolutionary times were either experiencing full-scale feudalism or theocracy at its worst. In revolutionary times, illiteracy was abolished, women had equal opportunities, property was socialized, religion was made a private affair, and secularization was very popular. This notion that religious freedom was suppressed is an invention of the bourgeoisie, much like their claims about how supposedly national self-determination was ignored in the socialist republics. Conditions in society were much better than they are now, ever since the revisionist rot seized the reins of power and robbed the working class and peasantry of their political control.

[grove street]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 04:50 am
Brilliant, a topic about atheism in socialist Albania gets reduced to another rant about "personality cults." And one wonders why I have a quoted phrase from the aforementioned individual about "personality cults" in my signature.

I agree with grove street's and Spirit of Spartacus's comments on the secularization of society in Albania. You can say the same for the Central Asian Soviet Republics of the U.S.S.R., and the Xinjiang Autonomous Region and Tibet in the P.R.C., which in pre-revolutionary times were either experiencing full-scale feudalism or theocracy at its worst. In revolutionary times, illiteracy was abolished, women had equal opportunities, property was socialized, religion was made a private affair, and secularization was very popular. This notion that religious freedom was suppressed is an invention of the bourgeoisie, much like their claims about how supposedly national self-determination was ignored in the socialist republics. Conditions in society were much better than they are now, ever since the revisionist rot seized the reins of power and robbed the working class and peasantry of their political control.
Good point. Many people in Central Asia still classify themselves as Musilms even though they love to drink vodka and only vist moseque during Ramadan. I beleive this is because Islam is more then just a religion, it's also a culture.

It was the Muslim people in both Albania and Central Asia who choose Enver Hoxha and Stalin as their leader. Most especially the women.

Stalin himself while having an interview with a socialist pastor from America, said he had nothing against followers of religion and that the Soviet Union would of been impossilbe without the participation of those who belonged to Russia's oppressed religions in Czarist Russia (Jews, Protstants and Muslims).

[Spirit of Spartacus]

Well, another thing you need to keep in mind is class.

Class divisions mean that in almost any Muslim-majority country, the bourgeoisie and petit-bourgeoisie has large numbers of totally secular people, who call themselves Muslims but love alcohol, act in a more or less sexually-liberated manner and basically remember Islam only in the month of Ramadan.

Of course there are some self-righteous religious pricks among the privileged classes, but they're bastards anyway.

Most of my friends were either bourgeois or petit-bourgeois, and most of them are almost as secular as any of the people who post here. Sure, they like to affirm their religious faith and identity, they like to call on God when they're having problems, they like to fast and maybe pray every Friday, but that's about it. Some others pray a few times a day. Very few of them pray five times a day.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Brilliant, a topic about atheism in socialist Albania gets reduced to another rant about "personality cults." And one wonders why I have a quoted phrase from the aforementioned individual about "personality cults" in my signature.

haven't you heard? People on this forum can't read sigs unless you but it in bright funky colors