Israel

[Lenin II]

Everyone’s been talking about Israel, and everyone seems to have strong opinions about it. I want to hear them! Personally, I’m very conflicted on the matter. Here are some random thoughts:
I’m no fan of Israel by any means. It’s an imperialist state, occupying land they have no claim to aside from some worthless holy text. Not to mention most conservative and sellout capitalists support Israel in the “war against terrorism,” which to most ignorant Americans means “killing as many Arabs as humanly possible.”
But America is an imperialist state too, justified by Manifest Destiny. If we say that Israel, despite the many years and generations hat have passed, is based on stolen land and must therefore move, then we should leave our own country and move back to England. It may be occupied land, but it is an incredibly tiny country. Is it really worth all this fighting?

What if the American government were to cease any and all support of Israel? I think they would be flattened and outnumbered greatly without our help, because after generations of fighting, Palestine does not want anything but the complete destruction of Israel. And who could blame them? So, maybe that is what we should do? After all, the “terrorists” hate America because we support the Jewish state. But then again, do we really want it to end so violently?

Perhaps the 1967 borders and sharing Jerusalem should be their goals. The whole, “who has committed more evil?” argument is moot at this point. Both sides are equally guilty. There is no perfect justice, what happened has happened. Maybe everyone should just chill the fuck out. OR maybe they should work for a two-state system, eventually leading to a socialist state.
I don’t know. What do you guys think?

[Guerrilla22]

My stance is not for the complete disolvement of Israel but rather for the creation of a Palestinian state, free of Israeli occupation, that would exist alongside Israel. A two state solution.

[Global_Justice]

I’m no fan of Israel by any means. It’s an imperialist state, occupying land they have no claim to aside from some worthless holy text.

and what is the arab claim to land? we're internartionalists, no one race has a claim to land over another.


Palestine does not want anything but the complete destruction of Israel.

says who? american news media? my understanding from what i've read, documentaries, news reports ive seen is that the majority of palastinians simply want peace. they dont want the destruction of israel or jews to be killed, they want to live in self-governed peace.


OR maybe they should work for a two-state system, eventually leading to a socialist state.
I don’t know. What do you guys think?

or maybe they should work for a single secular state run by the workers. the only reason to split the land into two nations is peoples prejudices towards each other, as internationalists we shouldn't support the breaking up of land into nation-states.

[Vargha Poralli]

I’m no fan of Israel by any means. It’s an imperialist state, occupying land they have no claim to aside from some worthless holy text.


and what is the arab claim to land? we're internartionalists, no one race has a claim to land over another

The dispersed Palestians lived on those land for generations before the occupation. They are not only Arabs and Muslims but also Maronites,Christians,Bedouins etc.Arab-Isralei confilct is entirely unrealted to Palestinians.



says who? american news media?

Definitely not PLO during the Arafat times but HAMAS has explicitly stated this in their own manifesto. They have just waterd down their rhetoric after winning this elections.


or maybe they should work for a single secular state run by the workers.

For that to happen either all Oil wells must dry up in the Gulf or USA's oil companies should be taken over by Workers. That is the only solution to the plight of the Palestinians. It is a problem that could not be solved by the Bourgeoisie as any soultion would be in conflict of their interests. It is in the Hands of Palestinian workers to find any solutions.

[Goatse]

Palestine does not want anything but the complete destruction of Israel.

The extremist religidiot Palestinians do. Viceversa for the extremist religidiot Israelis. If you asked the majority of those who have been the victims of the war, they'd just say they wanted peace.

[Okocim]

Originally posted by AndrewG+March 05, 2007 03:36 pm--> (AndrewG @ March 05, 2007 03:36 pm)I’m no fan of Israel by any means. It’s an imperialist state, occupying land they have no claim to aside from some worthless holy text. [/b]

you might wanna look into a bit of history there. ;)


Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 03:36 pm
What if the American government were to cease any and all support of Israel? I think they would be flattened and outnumbered greatly without our help, because after generations of fighting, Palestine does not want anything but the complete destruction of Israel. And who could blame them? So, maybe that is what we should do? After all, the “terrorists” hate America because we support the Jewish state. But then again, do we really want it to end so violently?

Israel has an incredibly powerful army now, even without US backing they could hold their own against the Arabs. When the whole "Israel wants to nuke Iran" thing came out, they proved their determination by stating they'd do it with or without US help. US help would just make it seem more "justified" and a bit easier for them.


Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 03:36 pm
R maybe they should work for a two-state system, eventually leading to a socialist state.
I don’t know. What do you guys think

Maybe all states should be working to a socialist state...


[email protected] 05, 2007 05:16 pm

Palestine does not want anything but the complete destruction of Israel.

says who? american news media? my understanding from what i've read, documentaries, news reports ive seen is that the majority of palastinians simply want peace. they dont want the destruction of israel or jews to be killed, they want to live in self-governed peace.

whilst that may be true of the Ahmadinejad "quote", it's not true of Hamas and Hizbollah's various statements.



I'm not a huge supporter of Israel, I recognise their right to exist even if they often exhibit racist policies (which, to be fair, Britain and US do as well - I'm not justifying it, i'm saying it's unreasonable to pick Israel out on this). A one state solution at this time is, imo, completely out of the question, it would put Jews into a minority and probably result in slaughter.

[RNK]

The main difference between the USA and Israel, in regards to "well if Israelis should leave, so should us Europeans", is that Europeans conquered and colonized America starting about 500 years ago... Israel has existed for some 60 years now. It'd be too late to start a gradual reduction of white influence and replace the structure of society with a Native-based alternative, but it's not too late to give Arabs back their authority.

Global Justice is right. That land doesn't "belong" to anyone, Israeli or Arab. However, the oppression Arabs face is embodied by the whole of Israeli society, from its youngest civilians who throw rocks at Arabs, to its highest government officials, who order entire neighbourhoods invaded, occupied and demolished.

[The Grey Blur]

What about those Israelis who oppose their government's oppression of the Palestinians?

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=133833

[Okocim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 07:05 pm
Global Justice is right. That land doesn't "belong" to anyone, Israeli or Arab. However, the oppression Arabs face is embodied by the whole of Israeli society, from its youngest civilians who throw rocks at Arabs, to its highest government officials, who order entire neighbourhoods invaded, occupied and demolished.
There are groups of Jewish Israelis who oppose Israel's treatment of the Palestinians and Israeli Arabs (for example, check out "machsom watch"). During the recent Israeli-Lebanese war there were protests by left wing groups in the streets (someone posted some great pictures on rev-left). There are pro-Palestinian/Arab parties running in Israeli elections (which many Arabs choose to boycott).

[LebaneseCommunistParty]

Israel has an incredibly powerful army now, even without US backing they could hold their own against the Arabs. When the whole "Israel wants to nuke Iran" thing came out, they proved their determination by stating they'd do it with or without US help. US help would just make it seem more "justified" and a bit easier for them.

And even with all this...Israel could still not defeat the LEBANESE RESISTANCE!

Israel idealistically SHOULD not exist as they are occupiers. I support a two state solution, but definitely not with current imperialist israeli gov't. If i could i would say i prefer israel not to exist, but we're not going to kill thousnads of innocent civilians lured by the zionist gov't, so we must go for the next best thing. But israel seems to show absolutely no interest in helping the palestianians. If you see statistics i have seen they are despicable. In places where palestianinans are 95% of the majority, 85% of clean water is given to the 5% of israelis. The remaining 15% of clean water are given to the palestinians. I'm sorry but israel's image does really seem evil. They could clean up their act a bit.

[Sankara1983]

An "independent" Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza would have striking similarities to the "independent" republics established by the apartheid regime or the "sovereign" tribal entities in the United States. Action towards a single secular state in the areas now covered by Israel and the PA is the only way forward for lasting peace and the only solution towards equality for Jews, Arabs, and Christians.

At best, the current suggestions proffered by the imperialist powers would lead to a situation like Bosnia, with a sectarian federation, a Western-dictated constitution and a plenipotentiary proconsul appointed by the "international community" empowered to dismiss elected officials he doesn't like.

[Wanted Man]

You can't really compare Israel to the US or UK. Because neither of those claim to be states that exclusively belong to one single group of people. The US was not founded as a place that is by definition controlled and led by the WASPs, whereas Israel is a distinct "Jewish state".

I am for a Palestinian state, but that does not mean that any Israeli Jews should be punished just for being Israeli Jews, that is insane. Ideally, it should be a socialist, secular state that gives the same rights to all ethnic and religious groups. The problem with the two state solution is that is just causes a greater divide between two "pure" nations, both of which woukd have people pushing for expansion of their state.

So I'm more for a binational solution, but without the bullshit "under the shadow of Islam" pushed by Hamas, or the "Jewish character" that Zionists would still want to have in such a state. Of course, at this point, the binational solution is not really workable due to obvious contradictions, and fundamental change of this is needed before such a solution can be implemented.

[Comrade_Scott]

I think we should first work towards a peacefull palestine/israel before we discuss a socialist state. what we should aim for is either a two state thing or a single secular state ruled by both isralies and palestinians.

Israel can hold its own against many of the arab nations as it has been shown... the question is can they do it forever because as history has shown us no army is invincable... lets aim for peace in the palestin occupied land, then aim for socialism

[Lenin II]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 08:42 pm
I think we should first work towards a peacefull palestine/israel before we discuss a socialist state. what we should aim for is either a two state thing or a single secular state ruled by both isralies and palestinians.

Israel can hold its own against many of the arab nations as it has been shown... the question is can they do it forever because as history has shown us no army is invincable... lets aim for peace in the palestin occupied land, then aim for socialism
I agree. This sounds like the best idea so far. Perhaps in that order--peace, then two-state solution, then secular socialist. How about it, guys? Do you support it?

[Leo]

I think that the state of Israel is a bourgeois state, just like every other state on this planet and I think it should be crushed by the proletariat, again just like every other bourgeois state on the planet.

[Guerrilla22]

An "independent" Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza would have striking similarities to the "independent" republics established by the apartheid regime or the "sovereign" tribal entities in the United States. Action towards a single secular state in the areas now covered by Israel and the PA is the only way forward for lasting peace and the only solution towards equality for Jews, Arabs, and Christians.

So the Palestinians should be incorporated into a state that oppresses them? As has been said before, this notion of a single state where everyone is living in harmony is pure fantasy. The best and most viable option for the Palestinian people is the creation of their own state, reckognized by the international community, free of Israeli occupation, where the Palestinians would have the right to self-determination.

[ComradeR]

Peace between the Israelis and Palestinians cannot exist as long as nationalist religious zealots are in power on both sides.

[Coggeh]

a united israeli and arab working class is the real solution ,theirs no real great thought to it....over throw the religious imperialist zealots of both sides .

[Rizzo]

Who ever says that Isreal is an occupying nation, living on stolen land, really needs to re-think that sentiment. It seems that almost every civization since civilizations began, has been built on the foundation of the conquered civilization before it. Religious fanatizism aside, how would the Isreali situation any different? I feel that war is never a good option, but I also feel that Isreal is just as entitled that that little peice of the world as the Palesteinians. I also feel that there is no real need for the intervention, or involvment of the U.S. or any other nation on either side. Isreal has shown in the past that it is capable of holding it's own without wasteing U.S. money, just as well as the Palesteinians. I am not a conservitive, nor a republican supporting the "global war on terrorism" but I feel that bashing the Isreali nation for living on stolen land, isn't necessary, especially when we ourselves(assumeing that the majority of this forum is in the U.S.) are living on land that we took from several previous civilizations.

[Coggeh]

Good point.But its not so much the fact the Israel took it over its the treatment of arabs and muslims that anger alot of people . Moveing them off their land , was that really nessasary ? trying to say to comrades that their living on stolen land themselves and should shut up before they critisize Israel is just a misguided arguement , if they didnt critisize it then who will ?.... if their were more Europeans around to critisize the Natives being slaugtered off their land then it might not have had happened .

Long story short society has developed and because of technology we can see this modern day genocide no matter what background we must come together to stop the fanatics on both sides.

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by Rizzo+March 06, 2007 08:18 pm--> (Rizzo @ March 06, 2007 08:18 pm) Who ever says that Isreal is an occupying nation, living on stolen land, really needs to re-think that sentiment. [/b]
Israel is an occupying nation whose people live on a Stolen land.There is nothing contrary about it.


Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 08:18 pm
It seems that almost every civization since civilizations began, has been built on the foundation of the conquered civilization before it.

But none had done it in a so much atrocious manner and still ill treat the people who had originally lived in those lands and justifies it because some Men in Europe had killed 6 million of their Nationality.


Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 08:18 pm
Religious fanatizism aside, how would the Isreali situation any different? I feel that war is never a good option, but I also feel that Isreal is just as entitled that that little peice of the world as the Palesteinians.

No one is saying all Israelis should be deported from Palestine. Even PLO when it is under Arafat fought for equal rights of Palestinians and Making Palestine a secular democracy. What did the Zionists did to him ? They even funded Hamas initially to divide Palestinians in a sectarian manner. They repeatedly violated the Oslo accords. So naturally after Arafat, Hamas's rhetoric had enabled them to gain power.

Even now Hamas itself had severely watered down its rhetoric but still Zionists and American Imperialists don't want to give rights to Palestinians. They have no interest in doing it. It is evident from their divide and rule policy.


Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 08:18 pm
I also feel that there is no real need for the intervention, or involvment of the U.S. or any other nation on either side. Isreal has shown in the past that it is capable of holding it's own without wasteing U.S. money, just as well as the Palesteinians.

This shows that you really know nothing about the Middle east affairs. Without the US support Israel could do nothing. Without Us there is no Israel.


Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 08:18 pm
I am not a conservitive, nor a republican supporting the "global war on terrorism"

But you are heavily influenced by their propaganda IMHO.


[email protected] 06, 2007 08:18 pm
but I feel that bashing the Isreali nation for living on stolen land, isn't necessary, especially when we ourselves(assumeing that the majority of this forum is in the U.S.) are living on land that we took from several previous civilizations.

That is totally irrelevant. Of course some kind of justice should be done to the Native Americans too but the descendants of Europeans need not be deported to do that justice.

[LebaneseCommunistParty]

so what you're saying is that noone stopped them 400 years ago even though they shoul dhave, so its ok that noone stops israel now.

They were living there and the isralies came and kciked them out! we should learn from our mistakes and progress as humans not let the same mistakes happen again!

[Okocim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 07:56 pm
And even with all this...Israel could still not defeat the LEBANESE RESISTANCE!

Israel idealistically SHOULD not exist as they are occupiers. I support a two state solution, but definitely not with current imperialist israeli gov't. If i could i would say i prefer israel not to exist, but we're not going to kill thousnads of innocent civilians lured by the zionist gov't, so we must go for the next best thing. But israel seems to show absolutely no interest in helping the palestianians. If you see statistics i have seen they are despicable. In places where palestianinans are 95% of the majority, 85% of clean water is given to the 5% of israelis. The remaining 15% of clean water are given to the palestinians. I'm sorry but israel's image does really seem evil. They could clean up their act a bit.
except for the fact you're simply wrong.

The Oslo 2 agreement defines the number of wells that Israel, the PA and other groups are required to dig. Israel did not decide this number it was made in negotiations between the two sides with American intervention in the process. Annex III, Article 40 of the Oslo 2 agreement specifies an increase of water for the Palestinians and gives details about what each side is to do to achieve this. 1/3 was to be done by Israel and 2/3s by the Palestinian Authority (PA). Israel did it's part after Oslo 2, however the PA did hardly anything. In some areas there was no changes made, in others PA didn't bother to connect pipes to the Israeli wells or else let old, broken pipes go unrepaired.

You say Palestinians have no water and yet in some areas of Bethlehem, Hebron and Ramallah they have private pools! whereas in areas where the PA controls the water, the Jewish communities regularly experience shortages or only receive undrinkable water.



then there are things like this during times of shortage (for both sides):
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Archive/Articles...%20-%2024-Aug-9 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Archive/Articles/1998/ISRAEL%20TO%20EASE%20WEST%20BANK%20WATER%20SHORTAG E%20-%2024-Aug-9)

"According to the office of the Coordinator of Government Activities, Israel is in fact supplying far more water than is stipulated in the interim agreement. For example, the Hebron area is getting more than 23,000 cubic meters a day, while the agreement calls for only 17,500 cubic meters.

The PA has not yet hooked up a new water pipeline in Bethlehem, which will have the capacity to absorb the full volume of water that Israel wants to supply, the Coordinator's office added. Nor has the PA hooked up three wells that were dug in the West Bank up to two years ago, one with Israeli funding and two others with money from the German government, the office said."

[Lenin II]

I think we should stop sending money to Israel. The proletariat tax dollar should not be forcefully spent on matters that are none of our fucking business. At this rate we’ll end up at war with Iran just because of Israel.
We need to stop sending them 5 BILLION a year. That’s billion, with a B. If their creator really protects them, Israel will be fine. They have more than enough money.

[Lenin II]

http://www.radioislam.org/islam/roligt/big/rislam72.gif

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 10:41 am
I think we should stop sending money to Israel. The proletariat tax dollar should not be forcefully spent on matters that are none of our fucking business. At this rate we’ll end up at war with Iran just because of Israel.
We need to stop sending them 5 BILLION a year. That’s billion, with a B. If their creator really protects them, Israel will be fine. They have more than enough money.
Judging by this post(alone) I think you should learn a lot about Materialism.


I think we should stop sending money to Israel.

Who is we here ?


The proletariat tax dollar should not be forcefully spent on matters that are none of our fucking business.

Then proletariat in America should realise that their government doesn't represent their Intrest.


At this rate we’ll end up at war with Iran just because of Israel.

Not just because of Israel but also because of the Amount of Oil wells Iran has.


We need to stop sending them 5 BILLION a year. That’s billion, with a B. If their creator really protects them, Israel will be fine. They have more than enough money.

US is funding Israel not because they are altruist. They have a plenty lot to lose without Israel.

[Okocim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 06:11 am
I think we should stop sending money to Israel. The proletariat tax dollar should not be forcefully spent on matters that are none of our fucking business. At this rate we’ll end up at war with Iran just because of Israel.
We need to stop sending them 5 BILLION a year. That’s billion, with a B. If their creator really protects them, Israel will be fine. They have more than enough money.
you posted this, that the US sends $5billion, then the very next post you put a picture saying the US sends Israel $3billion a year. I've got the figures here and it appears your first post was wrong:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...to_Israel1.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html)



Israel is still being threatened by its neighbours and needs to maintain a strong defence to ensure its own survival. Before you start accusing Israel of giving them cause to attack and of being the side which is opposed to peace, have a look at the Declaration of Establishment of the State of Israel:
"WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East."
source: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/...e%20of%20Israel (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/Declaration%20of%20Establishment%20of%20State%20of %20Israel)



Signed by Yasser Arafat as representative of the Palestinian Authority, the PA is supposed to be eliminating incitement of violence against Israel among Palestinians. Article XXII of the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank
and the Gaza Strip states that Israel and the PA:
"shall seek to foster mutual understanding and tolerance and shall accordingly abstain from incitement, including hostile propaganda, against each other and, without derogating from the principle of freedom of expression, shall take legal measures to prevent such incitement by any organizations, groups or individuals within their jurisdiction."
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/db942872b...52564e60048c213 (http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/db942872b9eae454852560f6005a76fb/d91c90a304f06ea4052564e60048c213)

Clearly the PA often violates this with things such as the disgusting portrayal of Israelis and Jews in school textbooks (see here (http://www.edume.org/reports/)), the hate campaign in the press, in places of worship, in paramilitary training of children (here (http://www.gamla.org.il/english/war/kids.htm)), in demonstrations where the Israeli flag or effigies are burnt and the praise of suicide bombers.

Israel needs to put a lot of resources into defence the US is helping Israel to do this, but not without receiving anything for their aid. It's in a key position for US military needs. It has been responsible for 600 improvements made to F16 fighter jet systems, worth billions of dollars to the US. A large amount of "aid" it receives is reinvested into the US. In 1970 Israel caused the withdrawal of the Syrian forces from Jordan which prevented the fall of the pro-US Hashemite regime, whilst the US was busy in Vietnam and Cambodia. Israeli intelligence is vital to the US both in the USA and in its operations in Iraq. Whilst I do not support the US invasion of Iraq, or its presence there, I can understand why Israel received money from the US and can see why they will continue to enjoy this because of the huge benefits they give to America. It's simply ridiculous for you to say "it's none of our fucking business" (although I live in the UK) because it clearly is. fairly right wing source, but provides decent details of exactly why it is the US's "fucking business" to provide aid to Israel (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3084569,00.html).

[Lenin II]

Originally posted by Okocim+March 08, 2007 05:19 pm--> (Okocim @ March 08, 2007 05:19 pm)
[email protected] 07, 2007 06:11 am
I think we should stop sending money to Israel. The proletariat tax dollar should not be forcefully spent on matters that are none of our fucking business. At this rate we’ll end up at war with Iran just because of Israel.
We need to stop sending them 5 BILLION a year. That’s billion, with a B. If their creator really protects them, Israel will be fine. They have more than enough money.
you posted this, that the US sends $5billion, then the very next post you put a picture saying the US sends Israel $3billion a year. I've got the figures here and it appears your first post was wrong:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...to_Israel1.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html)

Israel needs to put a lot of resources into defence the US is helping Israel to do this, but not without receiving anything for their aid. It's in a key position for US military needs. It has been responsible for 600 improvements made to F16 fighter jet systems, worth billions of dollars to the US. A large amount of "aid" it receives is reinvested into the US. In 1970 Israel caused the withdrawal of the Syrian forces from Jordan which prevented the fall of the pro-US Hashemite regime, whilst the US was busy in Vietnam and Cambodia. Israeli intelligence is vital to the US both in the USA and in its operations in Iraq. Whilst I do not support the US invasion of Iraq, or its presence there, I can understand why Israel received money from the US and can see why they will continue to enjoy this because of the huge benefits they give to America. It's simply ridiculous for you to say "it's none of our fucking business" (although I live in the UK) because it clearly is. fairly right wing source, but provides decent details of exactly why it is the US's "fucking business" to provide aid to Israel (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3084569,00.html).[/b]
You have a fair point concerning the benefits of aiding Israel, but allow me to explain the inconsistency.
The American media says that Israel receives $1.8 billion in military aid and $1.2 billion in economic aid. Both statements are true, but they never combine to give us the complete total of annual U.S. aid to Israel. However, even if they began to say that Israel receives $3 billion in annual U.S. foreign aid, that would only partially be true.
In fiscal 1997 alone, Israel received from a variety of other U.S. federal budgets at least $525.8 million above and beyond its $3 billion from the foreign aid budget, and another $2 billion in federal loan guarantees.

So the complete total of U.S. grants and loan guarantees to Israel for fiscal 1997 was $5,525,800,000. It’s not my fault the cartoonist is not aware of these figures. I was simply looking for a cartoon illustrating my point.

[RNK]

I view Israel as by and far the worse of the two. Palestinians may have a small, small minority of extremists who want to go blow up Israeli civilians, but that is nothing compared to the overwhelming state-sponsored oppression that Palestinians are faced with every day. They are humiliated individually and collectively, by the Israeli Army, by the Israeli Government, and by Israelis themselves. These Israeli zealots who illegally create settlements in Palestinian lands (usually by simply taking land owned by Palestinian workers -- who complain to the Israeli government but are completely ignored) abuse and attack Palestinians on a daily basis. All of us know about those "poor innocent" Israeli soldiers that Hamas and Hezbollah captured.. it was replayed over and over on our news, and caused a war that was so meticulous and sudden that you know damned well Israel had that entire thing planned and ready to go, just waiting for a reason... but what about the hundreds of Palestinian civilians who are kidnapped by Israeli settlers and held for ransom or killed? And the Palestinian civilians and government officials who are kidnapped at the Israeli government's leisure? What about Jenin? Why do Israelis lives in metropolitan utopias behind protective barbed wire and apartheid walls while Palestinians are forced into refugee camps with no electricity or water?

Anyone remember Lehi?

[Pilar]

No one should claim land on any basis, but use land as their needs dictate.

No one's holy sciptures are superior to anothers. (I laugh at them all!)

If Israel didn't exist, U.S. Foreign Policy would be 200% easier for them and the rest of the world.

Every U.S. diplomat speaks of how much influence the Israel lobby in Congress, and its harm, AFTER THEY LEAVE OFFICE.

I'm for a NO STATE SOLUTION.

[ComradeR]

Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2007 05:45 am
I view Israel as by and far the worse of the two. Palestinians may have a small, small minority of extremists who want to go blow up Israeli civilians, but that is nothing compared to the overwhelming state-sponsored oppression that Palestinians are faced with every day. They are humiliated individually and collectively, by the Israeli Army, by the Israeli Government, and by Israelis themselves. These Israeli zealots who illegally create settlements in Palestinian lands (usually by simply taking land owned by Palestinian workers -- who complain to the Israeli government but are completely ignored) abuse and attack Palestinians on a daily basis. All of us know about those "poor innocent" Israeli soldiers that Hamas and Hezbollah captured.. it was replayed over and over on our news, and caused a war that was so meticulous and sudden that you know damned well Israel had that entire thing planned and ready to go, just waiting for a reason... but what about the hundreds of Palestinian civilians who are kidnapped by Israeli settlers and held for ransom or killed? And the Palestinian civilians and government officials who are kidnapped at the Israeli government's leisure? What about Jenin? Why do Israelis lives in metropolitan utopias behind protective barbed wire and apartheid walls while Palestinians are forced into refugee camps with no electricity or water?

Anyone remember Lehi?
PM 'says Israel pre-planned war' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6431637.stm)
They had the war planned months in advance.

[Guerrilla22]

The amount of aid given to Israel each year varies. I'm not sure what the minimum has been, but the maximum was 6 billion. The President has to decide each year when creating the budget. It was like 2.4 in 2005, I'm not sure what it was set for this year.

[travisdandy2000]

Well, I'll probably just get in trouble again, but I'd like to point out that there is no such thing as an "Isreali" civillian, they are all legit targets for the resistance. The worst thing about dealing with the the left in the west these days is that there is still an argument going on about the Palestine/Zionist issue. It is very clear cut, it is no different then if you had been able to support the native americans against the european invaders back in the day. So what if the natives took some scalps or killed a women, they had every right. It makes me lose hope to see people arguing over such a clear cut issue, if you do not support Palestine in their struggle against zionist, white, european colinialism, then you are not a revolutionary. I don't care if they are Islamic nuts, anymore then I would have cared if the native americans wanted to do a ghost dance before fighting the yankee imperialist.

[Okocim]

Originally posted by travisdandy2000+March 10, 2007 09:09 am--> (travisdandy2000 @ March 10, 2007 09:09 am)Well, I'll probably just get in trouble again, but I'd like to point out that there is no such thing as an "Isreali" civillian, they are all legit targets for the resistance. [/b]

no, they're innocent civilians, not targets for religious extremists.

Many Israeli citizens do not even agree with everything the IDF does, as I pointed out to comrade Lebanese Communist Party (and have still received no answer from) earlier in the thread, there are Israeli groups dedicated to exposing any injustices.


[email protected] 10, 2007 09:09 am
The worst thing about dealing with the the left in the west these days is that there is still an argument going on about the Palestine/Zionist issue. It is very clear cut, it is no different then if you had been able to support the native americans against the european invaders back in the day. So what if the natives took some scalps or killed a women, they had every right. It makes me lose hope to see people arguing over such a clear cut issue, if you do not support Palestine in their struggle against zionist, white, european colinialism, then you are not a revolutionary. I don't care if they are Islamic nuts, anymore then I would have cared if the native americans wanted to do a ghost dance before fighting the yankee imperialist.

a lot of the problems of dealing with the "left" in the west (at least in the UK), is their opportunistic pandering to the muslims, to muslim values of anti-women's rights, of homophobia and of religiously-justified reactionaryism, in the hope that they'll get something back.

Maybe you should do a little reading into history? into the history of Jews in that area of the world? begore you start spouting such ridiculous nonsense as:
"If you do not support Palestine in their struggle against zionist, white, european colinialism, then you are not a revolutionary."

bollocks. I could just as easily point the finger at you and your support of an oppressive, homophobic, anti-women's rights, racist, reactionary religion marking you out as not being a revolutionary.

Just because I don't support some racist, nationalist bullshit about driving Jews into the sea, does not mean that I don't support Palestinian independence nor does it mean I'm stupid enough to simply believe all the lies being propagated by the British left atm regarding "Israeli oppression". Israel has offered to help the PA set up a separate state numerous times, they refuse, preferring anti-Semitic terrorist tactics instead of peace.

[Vargha Poralli]

Israel has offered to help the PA set up a separate state numerous times, they refuse, preferring anti-Semitic terrorist tactics instead of peace.

If you are refering to PLO you are balantly wrong. It was Israel who repeatedly violated Oslo Accord and repeatedly harrassed Yasser Arafat during his fianl years.

Even if you are reffering to Hamas you are partially true. Hamas has recently watered down their rhetoric after Israel and Imperialist blocked down the financial aid to PA.But instead of letting Hams to get an experience with administration with Palestine Authority they are sowing discord and encouraging sectarian fighting between Hamas and Fatah.

Hamas and Fatah too are really intrested in fighting between themselves rather than fighting for Palestinians.

60% of the guilt lies with Israeli Administration only rest with Palestinian groups.

[dso79]

a lot of the problems of dealing with the "left" in the west (at least in the UK), is their opportunistic pandering to the muslims, to muslim values of anti-women's rights, of homophobia and of religiously-justified reactionaryism, in the hope that they'll get something back.

I haven't really noticed a lot of support for the Islamic religion in the leftist movement here, let alone support for "muslim values of anti-women's rights, of homophobia and of religiously-justified reactionaryism". We do stand side by side with Muslims who are the victims of racism or imperialist aggression, though.


I could just as easily point the finger at you and your support of an oppressive, homophobic, anti-women's rights, racist, reactionary religion marking you out as not being a revolutionary.

He didn't say we should support Islam, he said we should support people who fight against oppression and imperialism, regardless of their ideology, and I agree with that.


nor does it mean I'm stupid enough to simply believe all the lies being propagated by the British left atm regarding "Israeli oppression".

You're starting to sound more and more like a zionist. Why the quotation marks? Are you denying that the Palestinians are oppressed?


Israel has offered to help the PA set up a separate state numerous times, they refuse, preferring anti-Semitic terrorist tactics instead of peace.

This is a blatant lie; the policies of every Israeli government to date have been aimed at preventing the establishment of a Palestinian state, mostly through the establishment of illegal settlements. If the Palestinians had any chance of achieving their goals through peaceful means, they would do so. Suicide bombings are a last resort.

Calling these attacks anti-semitic makes no sense; they don't attack Israelis because they're Jewish, they attack them because of the crimes they are committing. However, I do agree with you that not every Israeli citizen is a legitimate target.


Clearly the PA often violates this with things such as the disgusting portrayal of Israelis and Jews in school textbooks (see here), the hate campaign in the press, in places of worship, in paramilitary training of children (here), in demonstrations where the Israeli flag or effigies are burnt and the praise of suicide bombers.

It's ridiculous to criticize the Palestinians for a hate campaign or a flag burning while at the same time completely ignoring the crimes the occupation army commits against them on a daily basis.

PS: Those websites you linked to are absolutely disgusting. I browsed through one of them (Gamla) and found:

"Since the war started with the Palestinians (in Sept. 2000), we are doing our outmost to support the settlements."

I've seen enough; your true colours are showing.

[Okocim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 06:05 pm

Israel has offered to help the PA set up a separate state numerous times, they refuse, preferring anti-Semitic terrorist tactics instead of peace.

If you are refering to PLO you are balantly wrong. It was Israel who repeatedly violated Oslo Accord and repeatedly harrassed Yasser Arafat during his fianl years.

Even if you are reffering to Hamas you are partially true. Hamas has recently watered down their rhetoric after Israel and Imperialist blocked down the financial aid to PA.But instead of letting Hams to get an experience with administration with Palestine Authority they are sowing discord and encouraging sectarian fighting between Hamas and Fatah.

Hamas and Fatah too are really intrested in fighting between themselves rather than fighting for Palestinians.

60% of the guilt lies with Israeli Administration only rest with Palestinian groups.
just to answer you quickly:
Camp David, July 2000, Barak to Arafat - best offer Israel ever made - 90% of the West Bank, all of Gaza and some of Israel's own territory in the Negev. Arafat turned it down without a counter-offer and a couple of months after launched the Intifada - which has pretty much put a stop to any real negotiation since.



I'll answer comrade dso79 when I have time later.

[dso79]

Camp David, July 2000, Barak to Arafat - best offer Israel ever made - 90% of the West Bank, all of Gaza and some of Israel's own territory in the Negev. Arafat turned it down without a counter-offer and a couple of months after launched the Intifada - which has pretty much put a stop to any real negotiation since.

Barak's Generous Offers... (http://gush-shalom.org/generous/generous.html)

The Myth of the Generous Offer (http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113&printer_friendly=1)

[travisdandy2000]

Oh yes, sure! Dammn those arab crazies for turning down the generous offers of their Zionist overlords, how rude of them!

[Okocim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 11:34 pm

Camp David, July 2000, Barak to Arafat - best offer Israel ever made - 90% of the West Bank, all of Gaza and some of Israel's own territory in the Negev. Arafat turned it down without a counter-offer and a couple of months after launched the Intifada - which has pretty much put a stop to any real negotiation since.

Barak's Generous Offers... (http://gush-shalom.org/generous/generous.html)

The Myth of the Generous Offer (http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113&printer_friendly=1)
rubbish.


Rejectionism was not Arafat's only option, but he clearly preferred violence so just did that AGAIN. Regarding Israel's continuation of control over the Jordan valley etc, this would have been limited to the time it would have taken to establish adequate security. They can't just pull out 100% overnight, the result would have been absolutely disastrous for both sides. The article claims the Intifada "actually did not start for another two months" that in the meantime there was "relative calm", and "during this period of quiet, the two sides continued negotiating behind closed doors" it has been admitted that the Intifada had been planned for months:
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_alaqsa_start.php

Imad Falouji, the Palestinian Authority Communications Minister, said at a rally in Lebanon on March 3, 2001, that the violence had been planned in July, far in advance of Sharon's "provocation." He said:
"Whoever thinks that this [war] started as a result of Sharon's despicable visit to Al Aksa is in error. It was planned since Arafat's return from Camp David [where he] firmly stood up to Clinton and rejected the U.S. terms."

and:

Sakhr Habash, a member of the Fatah's Central Committee, gave an interview to the Palestinian Authority newspapger, including this comment on the outbreak:
"[The Intifada] did not break out in order to improve our bargaining ability in the negotiations, nor as a reaction to Sharon's provocative visit to Al-Haram Al-Sharif: this was only the spark. It was accumulated in the depths of our people and was bound to explode in the face of Barak's government because of the political problem that was put off for more than a year and a half -- the problem of independence."

yet the article claims it was pretty much spontaneous! so...more lies. I seem to find this problem pretty often when dealing with the anti-Israel left; you regurgitate all these "facts" of yours without bothering to do any research.

[Okocim]

Originally posted by travisdandy2000+March 11, 2007 01:09 am--> (travisdandy2000 @ March 11, 2007 01:09 am)Oh yes, sure! Dammn those arab crazies for turning down the generous offers of their Zionist overlords, how rude of them![/b]

:rolleyes: shall I take this as a "I actually don't know very much about this conflict, I only know I'm *meant* to be supporting the Palestinians" response?


Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 09:58 pm

a lot of the problems of dealing with the "left" in the west (at least in the UK), is their opportunistic pandering to the muslims, to muslim values of anti-women's rights, of homophobia and of religiously-justified reactionaryism, in the hope that they'll get something back.

I haven't really noticed a lot of support for the Islamic religion in the leftist movement here, let alone support for "muslim values of anti-women's rights, of homophobia and of religiously-justified reactionaryism". We do stand side by side with Muslims who are the victims of racism or imperialist aggression, though.

where have you been hiding then? I live in the UK and the left constantly jumps into bed with even the most reactionary ideas, just because they happen to have been espoused by (I'll not deny this) a certain oppressed section of the population.


Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 09:58 pm

I could just as easily point the finger at you and your support of an oppressive, homophobic, anti-women's rights, racist, reactionary religion marking you out as not being a revolutionary.

He didn't say we should support Islam, he said we should support people who fight against oppression and imperialism, regardless of their ideology, and I agree with that.

I'm aware of that, I was highlighting the stupidity of his statement, but I'm not going to start playing silly games of "I'm more revolutionary than you" crap.

and I agree, we should support people in their struggles against oppression. what we shouldn't do is run about spreading scurrilous lies without bothering to look at the truth. for example, let's return to the 2000 Intifada:
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_no...aqsa_course.php (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_alaqsa_course.php)
"On October 12, 2000 horrified TV viewers witnessed the lynching of two IDF reservists at the Ramallah police station by a Palestinian mob. Palistinian Authority operatives threatened and intimidated newscrews at the scene to try to suppress the filming and threatened reprisals against stations that broadcast the tape."

Just one example. we don't hear about this, all we hear about is the IDF bombing "civilian houses" (ie known bomb factories) and targeted assassinations of leading Palestinian figures in an effort to try and stop the attacks on its civilians.

As I showed earlier with my response to comrade Lebanese Communist Party regarding the water issue, there are a lot of absurd accusations flying about at the moment, which are simply untrue and all their aim to do is to blame the failure of the PA to look after its own people on, not even on the Israeli government, but usually on regular Israeli citizens.


Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 09:58 pm

nor does it mean I'm stupid enough to simply believe all the lies being propagated by the British left atm regarding "Israeli oppression".

You're starting to sound more and more like a zionist. Why the quotation marks? Are you denying that the Palestinians are oppressed?

I believe Palestinian oppression is being overstated to a massive degree.


Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 09:58 pm

Israel has offered to help the PA set up a separate state numerous times, they refuse, preferring anti-Semitic terrorist tactics instead of peace.

This is a blatant lie; the policies of every Israeli government to date have been aimed at preventing the establishment of a Palestinian state, mostly through the establishment of illegal settlements. If the Palestinians had any chance of achieving their goals through peaceful means, they would do so. Suicide bombings are a last resort.

Calling these attacks anti-semitic makes no sense; they don't attack Israelis because they're Jewish, they attack them because of the crimes they are committing. However, I do agree with you that not every Israeli citizen is a legitimate target.

which is why the textbooks attack Jews not Israelis? :rolleyes: which is why there is often cartoons of hook-nosed Jews in the Arab media? of comparisons to Hitler?

tell me, how is a picture of a hook-nosed Jew eating Palestinian children NOT anti-Semitic? Tell me, how the suicide bombers mainly targeting Jewish Israeli areas is NOT anti-Semitic? Palestinians live in a constant climate of hate being incited against Jews.


Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 09:58 pm

Clearly the PA often violates this with things such as the disgusting portrayal of Israelis and Jews in school textbooks (see here), the hate campaign in the press, in places of worship, in paramilitary training of children (here), in demonstrations where the Israeli flag or effigies are burnt and the praise of suicide bombers.

It's ridiculous to criticize the Palestinians for a hate campaign or a flag burning while at the same time completely ignoring the crimes the occupation army commits against them on a daily basis.

Point out to me where I've "ignored" any wrongdoing by the IDF? I accept that sometimes they do do the wrong thing, their intelligence sometimes does tell them that a civilian house is a bomb factory, mistakes do happen, that is regretful but unavoidable. And, occasionally, even wilful abuse of Palestinians may take place - I don't condone this, but nor do the citizens of Israel, as you, if you did any research into soldiers being taken to court, would see.


[email protected] 10, 2007 09:58 pm
PS: Those websites you linked to are absolutely disgusting. I browsed through one of them (Gamla) and found:

"Since the war started with the Palestinians (in Sept. 2000), we are doing our outmost to support the settlements."

I've seen enough; your true colours are showing.

I find it extremely doubtful that I'll agree with everything on any website, I do think the page I actually linked to on the Gamla website had relevant pictures, hence my linking to it.

[EwokUtopia]

Im a White Canadian, and it would not be fair for me to simply criticize Israel for doing to the Palestinians what White Canada did to the Indigenous people, so I'll Criticise both, just to be fair. Israel has much in common with Canada, the USA, Austrailia, New Zealand, White South Africa, Argentina, Chile, et cetera, the difference is what Canada et all did 200 years ago, Israel did 50 years ago, so Israeli Imperialism is a seeringly new memory. Indeed, the foundation of Canada and the US and all of these states was much worse than the foundation than Israel, it left millions dead, and entire continents turned into Imperialist states, and the persecution of the Native Peoples (I live on Anishinabe land, and I remember that as much as I can) continues to this very second. However, I am an ardenant supporter of Palestine because Palestine is a current historical issue with a huge amount of symbolism. The plight of the Palestinians is much more clear cut and cleanly defined, as well as symbolic, than any other persecuted group I can think of right now, plus the media of the West demonizes Arabs more than any other group, so solidarity with the Arabs, particularly Palestinians, Iraqi's and Lebanese becomes an issue of our day.

Even though my support for Palestine is probably one of my more vocal issues, it is important not to overemphasize this struggle as the only one, especially when the indigenous people of my country are struggling for their rights and land in Caledonia, only a few miles away. Indeed, all pro-Palestinian gatherings I have been to have not only been pro Palestinian, but pro-Indigenous as well, these issues, though seperated by a world of distance, are the same. In Canadian activist circles, it is extremely common to see the Palestinian Flag :
http://palestinian.peopleteams.org/clientImages/30963/palflag3.jpg
Alongside the flag of the Iroqouis Confederacy:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Flag_of_the_Iroquois_Confederacy.svg/360px-Flag_of_the_Iroquois_Confederacy.svg.png.

I stress to all supporters of Palestine to not loose focus on the struggles of the indigenous people whose land you are on. If you are living in Britain, recognize all the people your country has colonized (Palestine is included here of course) and fight against oppression of the indigenous worldwide. Palestine is a symbol for oppressed people everywhere.

A word on Israeli's, they have just as much right to live in Palestine as I have to live in Nogijiwanong (learning the origional name of where you live is probably a good Idea). That is to say, they are there, and they will remain there, and they must be equals with all others who live there (Samaritans, Armenians, Bedouins, Druze's, Romani, and of course, the Palestinians). but their government has commited too many crimes to continue on. In its place should be a secular multi-ethnic State to exist until such time as National States become a relic of the past.

There are many wonderful Israeli's who have commited themselves to Peace, Justice, and Equality. Never judge a person by the crimes of their nation, Israeli's are equal people with equal rights and responsibilities as everyone else. And I have never heard any Palestinian say anything less.

[Okocim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 03:09 am
Israel has much in common with Canada, the USA, Austrailia, New Zealand, White South Africa, Argentina, Chile, et cetera, the difference is what Canada et all did 200 years ago, Israel did 50 years ago, so Israeli Imperialism is a seeringly new memory.

much in common? what...there were white europeans in American and canada hundreds of years ago? :blink:



it's not quite the same, comrade. ;)

[travisdandy2000]

Ah, so its the Hatfileds and the McCoys to you, eh? The native Jewish population of Palestine that had lived in peace with the Arabs was driven out of the region right along with the Arab natives, when the European Zionist invasion came. You seem to think that Palestine should be grateful at being offered half of their land back by an occupying force. You claim to be very educated on the matter, but your the only supposed Marxist-Leninist I've ever seen who can take such a reactionary stance and not even flinch. By the way Arab peoples are semitic and I take offense at your overt anti-semitism towards the Arabs.

[travisdandy2000]

by Edna Yaghi
I am the product of your tyranny. You have dissected the leftovers of my country into bits and pieces of shantytowns, ghettoes and concentrations camps. You have cut off my water supply and left me thirsty while you the Israelis bathe in cooled pools not far from where I live. You have uprooted my trees and desecrated my fields making sure I have no way to sustain myself or those who depend on me. You have cut off medical supplies that treat the wounded and at your checkpoints, you detain and humiliate Palestinians and prevent those who are in dire need of medical assistance to pass through causing my people who are your victims to die at your impromptu borders.

You assassinate my freedom fighters while explaining to the world that you are merely defending your own squatters. You shoot to kill little children who in defiance and courage wield small stones in the name of liberty against you the fiercely armed enemy.

You torture the children and resistance fighters you incarcerate and try to bribe or coerce my people into collaborating against one another. You bulldoze homes and you prevent me from earning a living. You kill me by remote control from your US made Apache helicopters and your settlers who squat on what you have left me of my land throw firebombs into my dwellings and on my passageways, attack my children and womenfolk with guns and clubs and hate.

You occupy my land and on my bloodstained hills station your tanks and armored jeeps in order to shoot off one by one little children playing in the streets.

You take over the Orient House, my one symbol of freedom that was donated by a man worth all Israelis, while at the same time you starve the orphans just across the street.

You shoot out my water tanks and you kill off Palestinian servicemen even though at the time of your brutal massacres, these servicemen were patrolling their land or simply eating their last supper. You cut off my electricity so you can assassinate me more easily in the dank shadows of your dark treachery.

You are cowards and you are afraid of little Palestinian children with stones. You never kill them single handedly. You roam in groups like packs of wild dogs and you are just as vicious if not more so.

You leave me and my people without hope and when you have driven me into a corner and deprived me of all that is human, I react with anger and bitterness. I strap explosives onto my body and search for a place to detonate myself. Yes, I kill your civilians, but this is the price you have to pay for taking away my inalienable rights, the rights that all men are entitled to for your demoniacal oppression of my people.

It is really very simple. God created all men equal and no man better than any other. Yet, somehow you have made it your protocol that Jews are better than all others and that you have the right to come to my land committing rape and plunder yet expect me to thank you for doing so.

Just the other day, a young boy was eating lunch. One of your settlers who came from America threw a firebomb into this boy’s house. His two brothers were killed immediately. But the one boy survived horribly disfigured. His name is Amar Emeera. His scars have turned a once beautiful child into a grotesque being that does not even look human. What did this child do to go through life so horribly disfigured?

You shoot babies point blank while swaddled in their parent’s arms in Palestinian cars going to weddings. You slay Palestinian children going to and from school and you slaughter Palestinian children when they fight your armies with their bare hands. One such child, Mohammed Abu Arrar was shot down and killed when he protested your occupation of his land. Palestinian relatives of the boy kissed his body laid out in his coffin before he was taken away to be buried in the Gaza Strip.

You kill unarmed Palestinian fathers on their way to buy school supplies and books for their children. You have even run out of excuses for the atrocities you continue to perpetrate. You shell the homes of Palestinian families, instantly killing the occupants and then claim that the action was friendly fire from the Palestinians even though the homes were far removed from the scene of the battle and even though remnants of your American made shells are scattered about the demolished homes of the innocent.

You collectively punish 3 million Palestinians half of whom are children who reside on what is left of their own land though you know full well that their only desire is to free themselves from your barbaric cruelty.

You tell the world that you want peace yet at every corner, at every instance, you are as far from peace as the earth is from a different universe speeding in an opposite direction.

You speak peace with the forked tongues of your warmongers and then pretend shock when finally a Palestinian human bomb blows himself up.

You will only be free of the threat of human bombs when you seek a just and comprehensive peace and when you end your occupation of the indigenous inhabitants of Palestine.

[RNK]

Okocim, why are you here? You obviously care nothing about defending people who are abused, exploited and oppressed. Take off the M-L tag, you're nothing but a fucking phony.

Why isn't this asshole banned yet?

Why don't you go live in Israel, where the zionists there went so far as to offer an alliance with Nazi Germany in the 1940s in return for helping them defeat the British so they could take full control over the Mandate of Palestine. Go and live with the government that invited Jewish terrorists to join their military, and in 1980 created a special celebratory ribbon dedicated to former members of a group that killed hundreds of Palestinian civilians.


much in common? what...there were white europeans in American and canada hundreds of years ago?



it's not quite the same, comrade.

Actually, it's exactly the same. The only difference is the fact that the Jewish immigrants didn't bother to try and trick Palestinians into selling them their land in exchange for some fur coats and a couple of flintlock rifles. They simply conquered them with an extensive terror campaign.

[Vargha Poralli]

Arafat turned it down without a counter-offer and a couple of months after launched the Intifada - which has pretty much put a stop to any real negotiation since.

You are clearly ignorant about this issue. That Intifada which was called Al-Aqsa Intifada was launched after controversial visit by Ariel Sharon to the Temple Mount which was clearly a provocation on the Israeli part. Eventually Arafat was blamed for it when it is clear that nothing was under his control. But still he was kept under house arrest and many leaders of PLO were assassinated by Israel.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 02:17 am
much in common? what...there were white europeans in American and canada hundreds of years ago? :blink:



it's not quite the same, comrade. ;)
You got me there, there is a big difference between North American and Israeli Imperialist excuses.

Whereas we lied to ourselves by saying "These people are savages, we must vanquish and colonize their lands for their own good andenlighten them with our superior culture and spread the word of God"

The Zionists say "Our ancestors lived here 2000 years ago, it is currently inhabited by terrorists, our culture is superior, and the land was given to us by God."

Just because they have a different stupid reason for imperialism doesnt make them less criminal. Imperialism is Imperialism.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 04:41 am
the Jewish immigrants didn't bother to try and trick Palestinians into selling them their land in exchange for some fur coats and a couple of flintlock rifles.
Actually, this was more of a ridiculous culture gap. The concept of Land Ownership was not really understood by the Indiginous people, which is great because Land Ownership is the womb of servitude and class society. So, Logically you can not buy land from someone who doesnt claim to own it. The fact that the White Settlers claimed ownership over the land none of them believed they owned must have been incomparibly sorrowful for the Natives to bear.

[Okocim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 07:55 am

Arafat turned it down without a counter-offer and a couple of months after launched the Intifada - which has pretty much put a stop to any real negotiation since.

You are clearly ignorant about this issue. That Intifada which was called Al-Aqsa Intifada was launched after controversial visit by Ariel Sharon to the Temple Mount which was clearly a provocation on the Israeli part. Eventually Arafat was blamed for it when it is clear that nothing was under his control. But still he was kept under house arrest and many leaders of PLO were assassinated by Israel.
I dealt with the second intifada already in a previous post. Perhaps you missed it? I can't work out how to link to specific posts i'm afraid. it's the one starting with the single word "rubbish".

edit:
here, I'll repeat the particularly relevant bit:
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_alaqsa_start.php

Imad Falouji, the Palestinian Authority Communications Minister, said at a rally in Lebanon on March 3, 2001, that the violence had been planned in July, far in advance of Sharon's "provocation." He said:
"Whoever thinks that this [war] started as a result of Sharon's despicable visit to Al Aksa is in error. It was planned since Arafat's return from Camp David [where he] firmly stood up to Clinton and rejected the U.S. terms."

and:

Sakhr Habash, a member of the Fatah's Central Committee, gave an interview to the Palestinian Authority newspapger, including this comment on the outbreak:
"[The Intifada] did not break out in order to improve our bargaining ability in the negotiations, nor as a reaction to Sharon's provocative visit to Al-Haram Al-Sharif: this was only the spark. It was accumulated in the depths of our people and was bound to explode in the face of Barak's government because of the political problem that was put off for more than a year and a half -- the problem of independence."

[Okocim]

Originally posted by Ernest+March 11, 2007 05:41 am--> (Ernest @ March 11, 2007 05:41 am)Okocim, why are you here? You obviously care nothing about defending people who are abused, exploited and oppressed. Take off the M-L tag, you're nothing but a fucking phony.

Why isn't this asshole banned yet?

Why don't you go live in Israel, where the zionists there went so far as to offer an alliance with Nazi Germany in the 1940s in return for helping them defeat the British so they could take full control over the Mandate of Palestine. Go and live with the government that invited Jewish terrorists to join their military, and in 1980 created a special celebratory ribbon dedicated to former members of a group that killed hundreds of Palestinian civilians.[/b]

why aren't I banned?

probably because I've said nothing wrong, I've merely given you the truth which no one has yet managed to counter with actual solid fact, and will not be able to.

I've got the clearly-has-no-idea travisdandy2000 posting some sob story, which, ok, I'll give you is heart wrenching, but how much of it is true? I've got you accusing me of not being a Marxist-Leninist, without any justification whatsoever. I've got g.ram who seems to have missed my earlier post where I've already explained what his last post is picking up on.

but no facts. no figures. just the regurgitation of lies which the left, in britain in particular, seems to scream at every opportunity.

I know this is an unpopular stance on the left, but, tbh, I couldn't care. I've read all the "friends of al aqsa" pamphlets which are given out by pro-Palestine groups and I used to believe them. But then I actually did some of my own research and realised what lies, misinterpretations and hatred they preach.


[email protected] 11, 2007 05:41 am

much in common? what...there were white europeans in American and canada hundreds of years ago?

it's not quite the same, comrade.

Actually, it's exactly the same. The only difference is the fact that the Jewish immigrants didn't bother to try and trick Palestinians into selling them their land in exchange for some fur coats and a couple of flintlock rifles. They simply conquered them with an extensive terror campaign.

no, it's not. unless you're telling me that there were white europeans in America, Canada, Australia hundreds of years ago? are you really that ignorant of history? :rolleyes:

[EwokUtopia]

Actually, it's exactly the same. The only difference is the fact that the Jewish immigrants didn't bother to try and trick Palestinians into selling them their land in exchange for some fur coats and a couple of flintlock rifles. They simply conquered them with an extensive terror campaign.

no, it's not. unless you're telling me that there were white europeans in America, Canada, Australia hundreds of years ago? are you really that ignorant of history? :rolleyes:
That is such an ignorant and chauvanistic idea that just because their anscestors ruled the land thousands (not hundreds) of years ago they have the right to come onto it, say its theirs, kick 90% of the inhabitants who have lived there all their lives out, and create an ethno-religious oriented state. It really doesnt matter if some of their ancestors lived there millenia ago, they are not their ancestors. Would it be right if the Roma People, after being persecuted horribly in the Holocaust (Porajmos) decided to go into India and kick the people who are living there right now out because they lived there only one thousand years ago (Its been two thousand years since the Jewish people were forced from their land by the Romans)?

Howabout a different look, of all the Israelis living today, how many were alive when they were forced from their land in 136 CE? Not many, then why do they act like ownership of this land is such a recent and glorious memory? Pardon me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall the Ancient Hebrews as being regular Bronze Age fanatics who had a flair for Genocide, just ask a Canaanite, Amalekite, or Philistine.

If a Jewish State is to be set up, Palestine is the most Chauvanistic choice by far. Lets look at reasons why:
-There hasnt been a Jewish Majority population for thousands of years.
-There are hundreds of thousands of people who already live there (before the Naqba, there are now something like 17 Million Palestinians)
-The Jews who did live in Palestine for the past 2000 years were treated better there than in any other place (except of course when the Crusaders came to town)
-Rebuilding a Jewish state is against Judaism, so this is a Nationalistic Movement, not a Religious one, and it is based on an ethnocentric Jewish state, not a Religious Jewish State, which would be as bad, but is against Judaism, so it wont happen.
-The Arguement for an Atheistic Israel is absurd, "God doesnt exist, but he did promise us this land". The Nationalism and Militarism of Israel is justified by both shakey religious foundations, and a system of Neoconservative fear-mongering.
-The Zionists were "given" Palestine by the British, who had no right to be in possesion of it in the first place. Suppose the Russians conquer wherever you live and give that land to the Tutsi's, youd be pissed, wouldnt you? And no rhetoric of Genocide is going to change the fact that you just had your land stolen for a stupid reason.





Now, since you have the Marxist-Leninist thing going on (for now), Im going to assume that you are aware Israel is actually the second Jewish State created in the 20th Century. The first one, which still exists as a part of the Russian Federation, was the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, created by Lenin as an option for Jews who want a state to build one out of. When Zionism was gaining momentum, the JAO was showed to be a Socialist alternative to the extremely reactionary petty nationalistic state of Israel in Palestine. Unfortunately with WWII and Stalins many fuckups, the JAO never took off. One reason why it didnt take, yet one reason why it was a better choice than Palestine, is because it was too far from Europe. It is a state the size of Belgium on the Amur River in the Russian Far East, just on the border with Manchuria. The land is something like Eastern Canada, which is a good place to be. The reason it was remote is because they wanted an empty spot of land so they didnt have to kick people out to make a Jewish Homeland, which would have been very cold-hearted, and Stupid (People dont forget where their from in 50 years, and when they are robbed of everything, they stand up for themselves).

Another better option would be East Prussia. After it was Conquered in 1945, it was divided up between Poland and Russia (The Kaliningrad Oblast), and all the Germans were Expelled. This is a great oppurtunity to create a Jewish State because you have recently emptied land in Northern Europe and they people who were forced out of it were members of a guilty nation which nearly destroyed the Jews. It would have been an Ideal place to set up a Jewish State.


But no, you had to go with Palestine. The Palestinians did NOTHING to the Jews, and they lived there. It was incredibly wrong to force them out, and if you had a mind for social justice, Id think you would be able to see this.

I have one Question for you, Okocim, and that is, Are you religious in any way?

I find that the arguement for Israeli Hegemony quickly falls to shit when you realize that a God who does not exist can not support you. But, if I am wrong, please tell me in non-theistic justifications, of all places, why Palestine?

[dso79]

it has been admitted that the Intifada had been planned for months

I don’t consider that source (palestinefacts) very reliable, since it is yet another right-wing zionist website. It doesn’t really matter, though, whether it was planned or spontaneous. What matters is that the intifada was the result of zionist oppression. At that time it had become clear that the zionists weren’t interested in a fair peace deal, and since the provocations and the crimes against the Palestinians continued, they concluded that armed resistance was their only option. I can’t blame them for that.


Just one example. we don't hear about this, all we hear about is the IDF bombing "civilian houses" (ie known bomb factories) and targeted assassinations of leading Palestinian figures in an effort to try and stop the attacks on its civilians.

I actually still remember that incident, so apparently we do hear about this. It is a known fact that Israeli deaths are far more likely to be reported in the Western media than Palestinian deaths:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/net-report.html

Besides, I don’t see what’s so bad about offing a few occupation soldiers.


which is why the textbooks attack Jews not Israelis? which is why there is often cartoons of hook-nosed Jews in the Arab media? of comparisons to Hitler?

I’m not denying that there’s a lot of anti-semitism in that region, but as I pointed out in another thread, that's also a consequence of the occupation; most Palestinians don’t know any Jews other than the ones who terrorize them (the settlers and the soldiers), so I can’t really blame them for not liking Jews. Arab anti-semitism will likely disappear when there is a fair peace deal.


Point out to me where I've "ignored" any wrongdoing by the IDF?

You’re grossly underestimating the crimes of the Israelis and you refuse to accept that the Palestinians‘ behaviour (hate campaigns, violence, flag burnings etc) is a direct consequence of those crimes. (Btw, why would a communist have a problem with burning an Israeli flag?)


I don't condone this, but nor do the citizens of Israel, as you, if you did any research into soldiers being taken to court, would see.

As far as I know only a small percentage of complaints about abuse (or other crimes) are investigated, and even when they are the perpetrators usually go free or receive only a mild sentence.


I find it extremely doubtful that I'll agree with everything on any website, I do think the page I actually linked to on the Gamla website had relevant pictures, hence my linking to it.

I find it shocking that a self-proclaimed leftist would post links to right-wing extremist websites. If you need those to back up your arguments then there is something seriously wrong with those arguments.

[travisdandy2000]

Okocim, you are acussed of not being a Marxist-Leninist, because both Marx and Lenin would staunchly condemn the position you have taken on this issue. Have you even read anything by these individuals? Perhaps you are too busy gathering info from far-right web pages to be bothered with it. Hell, maybe you and the "Isreali" communist party are the only true Marxist in the world, and everyone else is wrong.

[Okocim]

Originally posted by dso79+March 11, 2007 09:12 pm--> (dso79 @ March 11, 2007 09:12 pm)
it has been admitted that the Intifada had been planned for months

I don’t consider that source (palestinefacts) very reliable, since it is yet another right-wing zionist website. It doesn’t really matter, though, whether it was planned or spontaneous. What matters is that the intifada was the result of zionist oppression. At that time it had become clear that the zionists weren’t interested in a fair peace deal, and since the provocations and the crimes against the Palestinians continued, they concluded that armed resistance was their only option. I can’t blame them for that.[/b]

whether I show you on a pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian website is irrelevant, unless you can prove to me it's a lie?

nice attempt to detract from the argument though. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 09:12 pm

Just one example. we don't hear about this, all we hear about is the IDF bombing "civilian houses" (ie known bomb factories) and targeted assassinations of leading Palestinian figures in an effort to try and stop the attacks on its civilians.

I actually still remember that incident, so apparently we do hear about this. It is a known fact that Israeli deaths are far more likely to be reported in the Western media than Palestinian deaths:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/net-report.html

Besides, I don’t see what’s so bad about offing a few occupation soldiers.

I don't watch American news so I can't comment on what they show.

It matters because military service is compulsory in Israel. I've already pointed out that many Israelis do not even agree with all the actions of their government or the IDF. What's likely is those killed were probably just Israeli lads doing compulsory military service, even had they joined the military out of choice, I'm sure you're aware of the kind of class basis armies the world over tend to attract? this is why it matters.


Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 09:12 pm

which is why the textbooks attack Jews not Israelis? which is why there is often cartoons of hook-nosed Jews in the Arab media? of comparisons to Hitler?

I’m not denying that there’s a lot of anti-semitism in that region, but as I pointed out in another thread, that's also a consequence of the occupation; most Palestinians don’t know any Jews other than the ones who terrorize them (the settlers and the soldiers), so I can’t really blame them for not liking Jews. Arab anti-semitism will likely disappear when there is a fair peace deal.

It's in direct contradiction to the terms of the Oslo II agreement. No wonder they go off with things like the second intifada if children are brought up in conditions of such hate. it won't solve anything, it just promotes hatred and more suicide bombings. there won't be a fair peace deal whilst Arab anti-semitism is rife because they simply won't agree to anything less than driving the Jews into the sea or whatever other nonsense.


Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 09:12 pm

Point out to me where I've "ignored" any wrongdoing by the IDF?

You’re grossly underestimating the crimes of the Israelis and you refuse to accept that the Palestinians‘ behaviour (hate campaigns, violence, flag burnings etc) is a direct consequence of those crimes. (Btw, why would a communist have a problem with burning an Israeli flag?)

so why don't you answer me with facts rather than ignoring most of my posts or just posting blatant lies promoted as facts?

I have a problem with them burning that particular flag because it depicts the Magen David, burning it is grossly offensive to Jews the world over. I would similarly disagree with anyone burning, for example, a copy of the koran I see no good coming from it, you're just literally inflaming tensions and causing gross offence.


Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 09:12 pm

I don't condone this, but nor do the citizens of Israel, as you, if you did any research into soldiers being taken to court, would see.

As far as I know only a small percentage of complaints about abuse (or other crimes) are investigated, and even when they are the perpetrators usually go free or receive only a mild sentence.

evidence? or just wild assertions repeated verbatim off some lying propaganda leaflet?


Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 09:12 pm

I find it extremely doubtful that I'll agree with everything on any website, I do think the page I actually linked to on the Gamla website had relevant pictures, hence my linking to it.

I find it shocking that a self-proclaimed leftist would post links to right-wing extremist websites. If you need those to back up your arguments then there is something seriously wrong with those arguments.

it was photographs ffs. If it bothers you that much I can find you a left wing site with the exact same thing shown on it. (course, it'll probably have to be in German or something given the disgraceful state of the left in this country).






Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 08:06 pm
That is such an ignorant and chauvanistic idea that just because their anscestors ruled the land thousands (not hundreds) of years ago they have the right to come onto it, say its theirs, kick 90% of the inhabitants who have lived there all their lives out, and create an ethno-religious oriented state. It really doesnt matter if some of their ancestors lived there millenia ago, they are not their ancestors. Would it be right if the Roma People, after being persecuted horribly in the Holocaust (Porajmos) decided to go into India and kick the people who are living there right now out because they lived there only one thousand years ago (Its been two thousand years since the Jewish people were forced from their land by the Romans)?

Howabout a different look, of all the Israelis living today, how many were alive when they were forced from their land in 136 CE? Not many, then why do they act like ownership of this land is such a recent and glorious memory? Pardon me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall the Ancient Hebrews as being regular Bronze Age fanatics who had a flair for Genocide, just ask a Canaanite, Amalekite, or Philistine.

If a Jewish State is to be set up, Palestine is the most Chauvanistic choice by far. Lets look at reasons why:
-There hasnt been a Jewish Majority population for thousands of years.
-There are hundreds of thousands of people who already live there (before the Naqba, there are now something like 17 Million Palestinians)
-The Jews who did live in Palestine for the past 2000 years were treated better there than in any other place (except of course when the Crusaders came to town)
-Rebuilding a Jewish state is against Judaism, so this is a Nationalistic Movement, not a Religious one, and it is based on an ethnocentric Jewish state, not a Religious Jewish State, which would be as bad, but is against Judaism, so it wont happen.
-The Arguement for an Atheistic Israel is absurd, "God doesnt exist, but he did promise us this land". The Nationalism and Militarism of Israel is justified by both shakey religious foundations, and a system of Neoconservative fear-mongering.
-The Zionists were "given" Palestine by the British, who had no right to be in possesion of it in the first place. Suppose the Russians conquer wherever you live and give that land to the Tutsi's, youd be pissed, wouldnt you? And no rhetoric of Genocide is going to change the fact that you just had your land stolen for a stupid reason.



Now, since you have the Marxist-Leninist thing going on (for now), Im going to assume that you are aware Israel is actually the second Jewish State created in the 20th Century. The first one, which still exists as a part of the Russian Federation, was the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, created by Lenin as an option for Jews who want a state to build one out of. When Zionism was gaining momentum, the JAO was showed to be a Socialist alternative to the extremely reactionary petty nationalistic state of Israel in Palestine. Unfortunately with WWII and Stalins many fuckups, the JAO never took off. One reason why it didnt take, yet one reason why it was a better choice than Palestine, is because it was too far from Europe. It is a state the size of Belgium on the Amur River in the Russian Far East, just on the border with Manchuria. The land is something like Eastern Canada, which is a good place to be. The reason it was remote is because they wanted an empty spot of land so they didnt have to kick people out to make a Jewish Homeland, which would have been very cold-hearted, and Stupid (People dont forget where their from in 50 years, and when they are robbed of everything, they stand up for themselves).

Another better option would be East Prussia. After it was Conquered in 1945, it was divided up between Poland and Russia (The Kaliningrad Oblast), and all the Germans were Expelled. This is a great oppurtunity to create a Jewish State because you have recently emptied land in Northern Europe and they people who were forced out of it were members of a guilty nation which nearly destroyed the Jews. It would have been an Ideal place to set up a Jewish State.


But no, you had to go with Palestine. The Palestinians did NOTHING to the Jews, and they lived there. It was incredibly wrong to force them out, and if you had a mind for social justice, Id think you would be able to see this.

I find that the arguement for Israeli Hegemony quickly falls to shit when you realize that a God who does not exist can not support you. But, if I am wrong, please tell me in non-theistic justifications, of all places, why Palestine?




I have one Question for you, Okocim, and that is, Are you religious in any way?

what has my religion got to do with anything? it holds no bearing over my views on this.




If that's your only question shall I ignore the rest of your posts as most of you have done with mine?

love how the pro-Palestine side always seems to make out like the Jews simply left "Palestine" for a couple of thousand years then went back kicking people out of their homes without a care in the world :rolleyes:

after the destruction of the second temple in 70CE, Jews continued to live there. There were large communities in Jerusalem and Tiberias by AD1000. By AD1200 there were also large communities in Jaffa, Gaza, Rafah and Casarea. By the early C19 around 10,000 Jews lived in the area, it was from this time that they went about building up a nation. The Hebrews entered the land of Israel roughly 1300BCE.

what does amaze me is that you're all arguing against Jewish nationalism but pro-"Palestinian" nationalism. There were Jews there, they expanded naturally, cultivated the land, built on it, just as they'd been doing for almost 3000 years. The British mandate merely gave them backing to do what they was already doing.


[email protected] 11, 2007 10:18 pm
Okocim, you are acussed of not being a Marxist-Leninist, because both Marx and Lenin would staunchly condemn the position you have taken on this issue. Have you even read anything by these individuals? Perhaps you are too busy gathering info from far-right web pages to be bothered with it. Hell, maybe you and the "Isreali" communist party are the only true Marxist in the world, and everyone else is wrong.

nah, I just liked their names actually. :rolleyes: pillock.
btw:
http://i7.tinypic.com/24gqh6t.jpg
http://media.de.indymedia.org/images/2005/08/125786.jpg
http://media.de.indymedia.org/images/2005/08/125785.jpg
http://i8.tinypic.com/24gri9g.jpg
http://i8.tinypic.com/24grkh1.jpg


:hammer:

[travisdandy2000]

Oh, I see the Jewish population lived in Isreal the whole time, it's just crazy propoganda that the majority of "Isrealis" are of European stock. It's just crazy nazis and religious nuts, that maintain that the people of Palestine are much more semitic then the white european invaders who happen to practice a semitic faith. Thats awesome, cause my ancsetors happened to live in the Ukraine, I think I'll go over and get my house and land back, from the bastards that stole it from me, since really I've been living there the whole time.

[travisdandy2000]

Debunking 6 common Israeli myths
A special factsheet for The Electronic Intifada by Ali Abunimah and Hussein Ibish, addressing the 6 most common Israeli myths recycled during Israel's supposed "War on Terror".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. No moral equivalence
"There is no moral equivalence between suicide bombings on the one hand, and Israel's killing of Palestinians on the other because while suicide bombings deliberately target civilians, Israeli forces do not.
Suicide bombing is a reprehensible and unacceptable tactic. These attacks should stop immediately. What needs to be added, and what is almost always missing in American media commentary is a similar condemnation of Israel's deliberate targeting of Palestinian civilians.

Since the Palestinian uprising started in late September 2000, more than 1,500 Palestinians, and 400 Israelis have been killed (as of April 12, 2002), the vast majority on both sides being unarmed civilians. Most of the deadly violence against innocent civilians, therefore, has been committed by Israeli forces and has been directed at Palestinians.

Israel and its supporters claim that while Palestinian suicide bombers deliberately target Israeli civilians, Israel tries to avoid harming Palestinian civilians and that those who have died are "collateral damage." Hence, they argue, there is no moral equivalence between the killing of civilians by Israel and Palestinians. This defies both common sense and all the available evidence.

On the one hand, Israel wants us to believe that 400 of its own civilians were deliberately targeted, while more than three times as many dead Palestinians all somehow just got in the way of what Israel claims is its humane and disciplined army. It is, in essence, an argument that 1,500 people all died by accident.

Every human rights group that has examined Israel's practices has documented systematic and deliberate use of violence targeted at unarmed Palestinian civilians by Israeli forces. Physicians for Human Rights USA which investigated the high number of Palestinian deaths and injuries in the first months of the Intifada, concluded that:

"the pattern of injuries seen in many victims did not reflect IDF [Israel Defense Forces] use of firearms in life-threatening situations but rather indicated targeting solely for the purpose of wounding or killing."

[Source: PHR USA, 22 November 2000]



This finding was based on "the totality of the evidence" the investigators collected about:

"the high number of gunshots to the head; the volume of serious, disabling thigh injuries; the inappropriate firing of rubber bullets and rubber-coated steel bullets at close range; and the high proportion of Palestinian injuries and deaths."



The findings of Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch confirm this pattern. Israeli human rights group B'Tselem has documented and condemned the targeted use of violence against Palestinian civilians and has found evidence of systematic torture of thousands of Palestinian detainees, including children.

What has been confirmed by human rights groups has also been observed directly by journalists.

In October 2001, Harper's magazine published the "Gaza Diary" of journalist Chris Hedges. Hedges' entry for June 17, 2001 provides even more shocking evidence of the wanton and deliberate killing of Palestinian children by Israeli soldiers at Gaza's Khan Yunis refugee camp.

Hedges writes:

"I sit in the shade of a palm-roofed hut on the edge of the dunes, momentarily defeated by the heat, the grit, the jostling crowds, the stench of the open sewers and rotting garbage. A friend of Azmi's brings me, on a tray, a cold glass of tart, red carcade juice."

"Barefoot boys, clutching kites made out of scraps of paper and ragged soccer balls, squat a few feet away under scrub trees. Men in flowing white or gray galabias -- homespun robes -- smoke cigarettes in the shade of slim eaves. Two emaciated donkeys, their ribs protruding, are tethered to wooden carts with rubber wheels."

"It is still. The camp waits, as if holding its breath. And then, out of the dry furnace air, a disembodied voice crackles over a loudspeaker."

""Come on, dogs," the voice booms in Arabic. "Where are all the dogs of Khan Younis? Come! Come!""

"I stand up. I walk outside the hut. The invective continues to spew: "Son of a *****!" "Son of a whore!" "Your mother's ****!""

"The boys dart in small packs up the sloping dunes to the electric fence that separates the camp from the Jewish settlement. They lob rocks toward two armored jeeps parked on top of the dune and mounted with loudspeakers. Three ambulances line the road below the dunes in anticipation of what is to come."

"A percussion grenade explodes. The boys, most no more than ten or eleven years old, scatter, running clumsily across the heavy sand. They descend out of sight behind a sandbank in front of me. There are no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shoot with silencers. The bullets from the M-16 rifles tumble end over end through the children's slight bodies. Later, in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos."

"Yesterday at this spot the Israelis shot eight young men, six of whom were under the age of eighteen. One was twelve. This afternoon they kill an eleven-year-old boy, Ali Murad, and seriously wound four more, three of whom are under eighteen. Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered -- death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo -- but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport."

There can be no doubt that Israeli troops have been targeting innocent Palestinian civilians for death from the beginning of the uprising. This understanding was also reflected in UN Security Council Resolution 1322, passed on October 7, 2000, which

"Condemns acts of violence, especially the excessive use of force against Palestinians, resulting in injury and loss of human life."

In making the moral superiority claim, Israel's apologists are either shamelessly denying the irrefutable evidence cited above and are simply lying, or they are asserting that some forms of murder are morally superior to other forms of murder.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. Self-defense
"Israel's invasion of Palestinian cities and refugee camps is self-defense against suicide bombings. No country can tolerate its citizens being blown up in streets and cafes and Israel has to act."
The Israeli claim that its attacks on the Palestinians constitute "self defense" ignores the fact that its posture in East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza Strip is, by definition, not defensive. Since 1967, Israel has maintained tens of thousands of heavily armed troops outside its borders for the purposes of stealing land from the Palestinians and forcing them to live as non-citizens under a foreign military dictatorship.

Seized Palestinian land has been used to build Jewish-only settlements linked by a network of Jewish-only roads, in flagrant violation of UN Security Council Resolutions and the Fourth Geneva Convention. This colonization is, and can only be, carried out by the violent suppression of any and all Palestinian resistance to the occupation.

Throughout the years of the "peace process" during the 1990s, Israel continued to construct settlements, doubling the number of settlers in the West Bank from about 100,000 to 200,000 according to the Israeli group "Peace Now." At least 34 new settlements have been built since Sharon took office.

The settlement colonization policy is, and can only be carried out by the violent suppression of any and all Palestinian resistance to the occupation. Throughout the years of the "peace process" Israel continued to construct settlements, doubling the number of settlers according to the Israeli group "Peace Now."

The entire international community has recognized that Israel's military occupation must end, and that its continuation, along with the settlement policy, and the massive repression they entail is a guarantee of continued bloodshed. Israel's brutal actions in the occupied territories are designed to consolidate and entrench the occupation and expand Israeli colonization, and are therefore, by definition, not defensive in nature.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. Arafat's silence
"Arafat refuses to condemn suicide bombings in Arabic, i.e. for his domestic Palestinian audience."
Even before Yasir Arafat's statement on 13 April 2002 condemning terrorism Arafat had repeatedly condemned suicide bombings both in Arabic and in English. Here are just two examples obtained from BBC monitoring.

1. On Palestinian TV, on 28 March 2002, at 20:08 GMT, Arafat stated in Arabic:

"On this occasion, I would like once again to reiterate our condemnation of yesterday's operation in Netanya, in which a number of innocent Israeli civilians were killed and wounded. This operation constitutes a deviation from our policy and a violation of our national and human values. I affirm our commitment to working toward an immediate cease-fire, as we informed General Zinni. We highly value his efforts. We informed him that we are ready for the immediate implementation of the Tenet's work plan without conditions, and without prejudicing any of its articles. Also, we have informed him of our readiness to implement the Mitchell Report recommendations in cooperation with the four-way US-Russian-European-UN committee headed by Gen. Zinni."



2. On December 16, 2001, in a speech on the occasion of Id al-Fitr in Ramallah (Gaza Palestine Satellite Channel Television, in Arabic, on 16 December 2001 at 16:00 GMT) Arafat stated in Arabic:

"Today, I emphasize once again the complete and immediate halt to all armed operations. Once again, I call for a complete halt to all operations, especially suicidal operations, which we have always condemned. We will punish all those who carry out and mastermind such operations. This also applies to the firing of mortar shells, which have no objective but to provide an excuse for the Israeli attacks on us, our people, our children, and our women. Any violation of this decision will be considered an attempt to harm the higher national interests of our people and of our Arab nation."




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4. Arafat's inaction
"Arafat has not done enough to stop terrorism."
The basic assumption behind the Israeli claim that Arafat "must do more" to stop attacks on Israel is that the primary role of the Palestinian Authority is not to work for the security and well-being of the Palestinian people, but rather to guarantee the security and safety of Israeli occupation forces, settlers and civilians, even while Israel rules millions of disenfranchised Palestinians, and continues to seize their land by force.

Even if such an arrangement were politically tenable, the realities of the past ten years made it impossible. The Palestinian Authority is not a sovereign state, but a quasi-authority which at the height of its power was only given control over 17.2% of the Israeli occupied West Bank (so called "Area A" under the Oslo and subsequent accords). Even Israel with all its military and economic might could not guarantee its own safety when it controlled every inch of the West Bank.

Over the past 18 months, Israel has systematically attacked all the facilities of the Palestinian Authority, including police stations, prisons and intelligence headquarters, and killed and assassinated many Palestinian security officers. Hence while crippling and killing the Palestinian security forces, Israel makes the ludicrous demand that these same forces go out and work on Israel's behalf.

Israel has further undermined its own claim that Arafat is "in control" of all the violence, by continuing to demand that he act while he is a prisoner of the Israelis in two rooms of his Ramallah headquarters, with no outside contact, no electricity and barely enough food and water.

The suicide bombings which have followed the brutal Israeli re-invasions of almost every major West Bank town since late March 2002 prove conclusively that there is no level of violence or ruthlessness that either Israel or the Palestinian Authority can employ that will eliminate those determined to answer the suffering of millions of Palestinian civilians under decades of Israeli military occupation by inflicting suffering on Israeli civilians.

The only way to end suicide bombings and other kinds of Palestinian violence is to end the extreme violence of the Israeli military occupation which produces and fuels both Palestinian resistance against the occupation forces and violent attacks against Israeli civilians. Absent a political process explicitly designed to end the occupation, there is little reason to believe that such attacks can or will end.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

5. Israel's generosity
"Arafat spurned Barak's generous offer at Camp David and broke off negotiations with Israel."
One of the most powerful myths propagated in the US media today is that at the Camp David summit in July 2000, then Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak made an amazingly generous offer to the Palestinians that Yasir Arafat wantonly spurned, broke off negotiations and then launched a violent uprising against Israel. No element of this, the most cherished of media myths is true. In fact, Barak's offer was anything but generous. It was Israel that broke off the negotiations, and the committee headed by former US Senator George Mitchell found no evidence to back the Israeli claim that the Palestinian Authority had planned or launched the Intifada.

This myth was given life in large part by President Clinton who immediately after the Camp David summit broke his promise to Arafat that no side would be blamed for failure, and went on Israeli television declaring that while Barak made bold compromises for peace, Arafat has missed yet another opportunity. Let's go through the evidence bit by bit.

Barak's "generous" offer
What Barak offered at Camp David was a formula for continued Israeli military occupation under the name of a "state."

The proposal would have meant:

no territorial contiguity for the Palestinian state,
no control of its external borders,
limited control of its own water resources, and
no full Israeli withdrawal from occupied territory as required by international law.


In addition, the Barak plan would have :


included continued Israeli military control over large segments of the West Bank, including almost all of the Jordan Valley;
codified the right of Israeli forces to be deployed in the Palestinian state at short notice;
meant the continued presence of fortified Israeli settlements and Jewish-only roads in the heart of the Palestinian state; and
required nearly 4 million Palestinian refugees to relinquish their fundamental human rights in exchange for compensation to be paid not by Israel but by the "international community."


At best, Palestinians could expect a kind of super-autonomy within a "Greater Israel", rather than independence, and the devolution of some municipal functions in the parts of Jerusalem inhabited by Palestinians, under continued overall Israeli control.

See maps showing what the Israeli proposals would have looked like in reality at http://electronicIntifada.net/coveragetrends/generous.html.

John Mearsheimer, professor in the department of political science at the University of Chicago, recognized the limitations of what Palestinians were being asked to accept as a final settlement, concluding that

"it is hard to imagine the Palestinians accepting such a state. Certainly no other nation in the world has such curtailed sovereignty."

[Source: "The Impossible Partition," New York Times, January 11, 2001]



The reality was far from the wild claims routinely made on the editorial pages of American papers that Barak had offered the Palestinians, 95, 97 or even 100% of the occupied West Bank. Barak himself wrote in a New York Times Op-ed on 24 May 2001 that his vision was for

"a gradual process of establishing secure, defensible borders, demarcated so as to encompass more than 80 percent of the Jewish settlers in several settlement blocs over about 15 percent of Judea and Samaria, and to ensure a wide security zone in the Jordan Valley."

[Source: "Building a Wall Against Terror," New York Times, 24 May 2001].



In other words, if Barak intended to keep 15 percent of "Judea and Samaria" (the West Bank), he could not have offered the Palestinians more than 85 percent.

No one can seriously talk about Israel being willing to end its settlement policy if 80 percent of its settlers would have remained in place.

Robert Malley who was Clinton's special assistant for Arab-Israeli affairs, participated in the Camp David negotiations. In an important article entitled "Fictions About the Failure At Camp David " published in the New York Times on July 8, 2001, Malley added his own, insider's challenge to the Camp David myth. Not only did he agree that Barak's offer was far from ideal, but made the additional point that Arafat had made far more concessions than anyone gave him credit for. Malley wrote:

"Many have come to believe that the Palestinians' rejection of the Camp David ideas exposed an underlying rejection of Israel's right to exist. But consider the facts: The Palestinians were arguing for the creation of a Palestinian state based on the June 4, 1967, borders, living alongside Israel. They accepted the notion of Israeli annexation of West Bank territory to accommodate settlement blocs. They accepted the principle of Israeli sovereignty over the Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem -- neighborhoods that were not part of Israel before the Six Day War in 1967. And, while they insisted on recognition of the refugees' right of return, they agreed that it should be implemented in a manner that protected Israel's demographic and security interests by limiting the number of returnees. No other Arab party that has negotiated with Israel -- not Anwar el-Sadat's Egypt, not King Hussein's Jordan, let alone Hafez al-Assad's Syria -- ever came close to even considering such compromises."



Malley rightly concluded that, "If peace is to be achieved, the parties cannot afford to tolerate the growing acceptance of these myths as reality."

The negotiations continued
While it is true that the July 2000 Camp David summit ended without agreement, the negotiations did not end. They restarted and continued until Barak broke them off in January 2001. Since then Israel has refused to enter political negotiations with the Palestinians.

On 19 December 2000, six months after Camp David, Israeli and Palestinian negotiators returned to Washington and continued with negotiations. These negotiations were based on a set of proposals by President Clinton which went beyond Barak's offer of July 2000, but still fell short of minimum Palestinian expecations. Nevertheless, the Palestinians went on with the talks.

By some accounts these were proving fruitful. The Los Angeles Times reported on 22 December 2000, that:

"Amid signs that the two sides appear to be edging toward some sort of compromise on the emotional issue of Jerusalem, Israeli and Palestinian negotiators worked through the start of the Jewish Hanukkah holiday Thursday expressing a rare shared optimism."

[Source: Los Angeles Times, December 22, 2000. "Hopeful mood fuels talks on Mideast peace; Negotiations: Israelis, Palestinians work through Jewish holiday as signs surface of a compromise."]



In January 2001, the talks moved to Taba, Egypt, where they reportedly continued to make progress. They broke off at the end of January, and were due to resume but Barak canceled a planned meeting with Arafat. Shortly thereafter, Barak lost the election to Ariel Sharon, and the talks have never resumed.

The New York Times reported on January 28, 2001:

"Senior Israeli and Palestinian officials concluded nearly a week of stop-and-start negotiations in Taba, Egypt, tonight by saying jointly that they have "never been closer to reaching" a final peace accord but lacked sufficient time to conclude one before the Israeli elections on Feb. 6..... At a joint news conference in Taba, Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami of Israel called the two-way talks, from which the Americans were conspicuously absent, "the most fruitful, constructive, profound negotiations in this phase of the peace process." He said the two sides hoped to pick up where they left off after the elections -- although his boss, Mr. Barak, is expected to lose."

Source: New York Times, January 28, 2001, "Mideast Talks End With Gain But No Accord."



So how is it then that all these commentators and Israeli officials continue to deny that talks which the Israeli foreign minister at the time called "the most fruitful, constructive, profound negotiations," never took place? How is it that so many continue to claim that it was the Palestinians who walked away from the bargaining table when it was Israel that stopped the talks and refuses to resume them?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6. Arafat's Intifada
"Arafat started the Intifada after he failed to get what he wanted at Camp David."
Although the Camp David summit ended almost three months before the beginning of the Intifada, and negotiations continued between the Israelis and Palestinians even as violence raged, many pro-Israeli commentators maintain that Arafat launched the Intifada as a direct response to the Camp David proposals, just because he prefers war to peace! This is belied by all the evidence.

The Intifada was a reaction to years of worsening conditions in the occupied territories during the period of the so-called peace process, when Israel doubled the number of settlers on occupied Palestinian land, and tightened its noose around the Palestinian population. But the spark was Ariel Sharon's visit to the Haram Al-Sharif with 1,000 armed men on 28 September 2000, a deliberate desecration of a holy site whose purpose was to send a message that Israel would always control the Palestinians by brute force.

The Palestinian protests that broke out in reaction to Sharon's incursion included stone-throwing but absolutely no firearms. The Israeli response, however, was lethal.

The New York Times reported on 30 September 2000 that:

"Four Palestinians were killed at Haram al Sharif, known to Jews as Temple Mount, in a second day of rioting that began when Ariel Sharon, the rightist opposition leader, visited the Muslim compound on Thursday to assert Jewish claims to the site. Wearing full riot gear, Israeli police officers today stormed the Muslim area, where they rarely set foot, to disperse Palestinian youths who emerged from Friday prayer services to stone first a police post at the Moghrabi Gate and then Jewish worshipers at the Western Wall."

"Dr. Khaled Qurei, director of the Makhased [sic: Maqassad] Hospital on the Mount of Olives, said the hospital had treated more than 150 men, women and youths, many of whom were wounded by rubber bullets and some by live ammunition. The Israeli police denied that live bullets had been used."

Source: "Battle at Jerusalem Holy Site Leaves 4 Dead and 200 Hurt," New York Times, 30 September 2000.



The report did not contain even an allegation by the Israelis that any Palestinian had used firearms. But Israel's killing of unarmed protestors sparked wider protests throughout the occupied territories. Within weeks, dozens of Palestinians, almost all unarmed civilians, both inside Israel and in the occupied territories had been killed.

Despite the clear chronological order of the events, Israel and its supporters in the US media continue to maintain that Arafat and the Palestinian Authority launched the Intifada.

The high-profile investigative committee headed by former US Senator George Mitchell stated in its final report that:

"The [Government of Israel] asserts that the immediate catalyst for the violence was the breakdown of the Camp David negotiations on July 25, 2000 and the "widespread appreciation in the international community of Palestinian responsibility for the impasse." In this view, Palestinian violence was planned by the PA leadership, and was aimed at "provoking and incurring Palestinian casualties as a means of regaining the diplomatic initiative."



The report continued:

"In their submissions, the parties traded allegations about the motivation and degree of control exercised by the other. However, we were provided with no persuasive evidence that the Sharon visit was anything other than an internal political act; neither were we provided with persuasive evidence that the PA planned the uprising."

"Accordingly, we have no basis on which to conclude that there was a deliberate plan by the PA to initiate a campaign of violence at the first opportunity; or to conclude that there was a deliberate plan by the GOI to respond with lethal force."



Finally, the Mitchell committee agreed that:

"The Sharon visit did not cause the "Al-Aqsa Intifada." But it was poorly timed and the provocative effect should have been foreseen; indeed it was foreseen by those who urged that the visit be prohibited. More significant were the events that followed: the decision of the Israeli police on September 29 to use lethal means against the Palestinian demonstrators; and the subsequent failure, as noted above, of either party to exercise restraint."

[Source: SHARM EL-SHEIKH FACT-FINDING COMMITTEE FINAL REPORT, April 30, 2001]



Despite the report's effort to lay blame on both sides, and thus appear even-handed, it is clear that on the one-hand Israeli violence fuelled and led to the spread of the uprising, and that there is no reason to accept Israel's claims that the Palestinian Authority planned or started the uprising.

Ali Abunimah & Hussein Ibish

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 10:18 pm

I have one Question for you, Okocim, and that is, Are you religious in any way?

what has my religion got to do with anything? it holds no bearing over my views on this.

I hope you are kidding, because I cant believe someone could be so ignorant to the nature of this conflict to say "What does my religion have anything to do with it?". The nature of Zionism in Palestine is that God gave that land to the Jews and only to the Jews, and that belief is what sustains the view that Palestine should be a Jewish state. This view is used to justify the occupation and illegal settlement of Palestinian lands by both Jewish and Christian Zionists. The vast majority of Zionists are religious, because Zionism (though opposed to many basic tennants of Judaism) remains a very religious stance. The fact that you said "What does my religion have anything to do with it" implies that you are a religious person. The fact that you are a zionist, or at least a sympathizer to zionism hints that you are either Jewish or Christian. I, unlike many here, will not hold the fact that you are religious against you, but when you use Religion to fuel such imperialistic, chauvanistic and essentially crypto-racist beliefs is a huge problem, and that is where my tolerance for religion ends.

I can not believe that your religion, if in fact you have one, holds no bearing over this view. It is like a pro-life Christian saying that his religion has no bearing over his anti-choice beliefs.


love how the pro-Palestine side always seems to make out like the Jews simply left "Palestine" for a couple of thousand years then went back kicking people out of their homes without a care in the world rolleyes.gif

after the destruction of the second temple in 70CE, Jews continued to live there. There were large communities in Jerusalem and Tiberias by AD1000. By AD1200 there were also large communities in Jaffa, Gaza, Rafah and Casarea. By the early C19 around 10,000 Jews lived in the area, it was from this time that they went about building up a nation. The Hebrews entered the land of Israel roughly 1300BCE.

You oversimplify at best what I said. I never said the Jews all up and left. They were forced out for the most part by Roman Imperialists, but many stayed. I said, if you read carefully, that it has been 2000 years since there was a Jewish majority in Palestine. If you want to talk about the Jewish experiance in Palestine over the last two millenia, why not mention the period of time when the Catholic Spaniards kicked all the Jews and Muslims out of Spain, and many Jews sought refuge in Muslim-controlled Palestine, where they recieved an unequalled amount of tolerance for that silly, overly religious age? Or howabout the fact that all Palestinians have quite a substancial amount of Jewish blood, as the Palestinians are decended from a mix of pretty well all people who have lived in that land over the centuries? They are not simply decended from Arabians because they speak Arabic. We speak English, are we all Anglo-Saxons?


what does amaze me is that you're all arguing against Jewish nationalism but pro-"Palestinian" nationalism. There were Jews there, they expanded naturally, cultivated the land, built on it, just as they'd been doing for almost 3000 years. The British mandate merely gave them backing to do what they was already doing.

Your quite good at putting words into my mouth, arent you? Who said we were supporting Palestinian Nationalism. We are supporting the Palestinian people, who are under oppression. Should that oppression magically be reversed and a Palestinian state which is comprised only of Palestinians immerge which oppresses the Israeli's, I will support the Israeli's. But that is not going to happen. What we want is a secular, multi-ethnic state where all ethnicities and religious groups are granted equal citizenship, to be followed with a world state where all humans are equal, this is the eventual endgoal. You sound like a typical zionist, that is to say you make it out as if the end of the Jewish state means that Jews will be killed in the streets, or at least expelled from Palestine. I have met many Palestinians, and not a single one has ever said anything close to this.
What Palestinians want, in my experiances with them, is to live with the Israeli's, not under them. a Jew should have as much right to live in Ramallah as an Arab has to live in Jaffa. A Jew should have as much right to call that state Yisrael as an Arab calls if Filasteen, the last thing we need is a war over the name of the place. Neither have any right to lord over anyone else, and neither have a right to shape that land into an exclusive ethnic state.
Currently the Palestinians are forced out of their land and into the Ghetto's that are the refugee camps. Gaza is essentially a very large prison. The Palestinians are the worlds largest refugee group, while the Israeli's are living in a Neoconservative Aparthied Consumer state. Both these facts must change.
It is a great hope that in centuries to come, Palestinians and Israeli's will intermarry until they become indistinguishable, as it was intermarriage between ethnicities that gave birth to the Palestinians in the first place. But this will never happen while one oppresses the other. This will never happen while the Jewish State of Israel exists in Palestine. A Jewish state is as bad as an Afrikaner state, a White Austrailia, or any other ethnocentric colonial state that exists (of which I am a product). Do not mistake this for saying the Jews have no right to live there, they have every right, and I have every right to live in Canada. Both my people and the Israeli's need to own up to their oppressive roots, and give economic and social freedom to the people we are oppressing.

[EwokUtopia]

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/8/8a/300px-Latuff_che.gif

http://www.ism-london.org.uk/gallery/forgiveness_1.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMVb68SINCk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOdBu4--22Y

[travisdandy2000]

Well, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's propbably a duck. Okocim walks, talks and looks like a reactionary. He is probably a provacature from some Zionist or far-right web grouping, or at best a liberal, he is certainly no revolutionary. There is no need to take him seriously, if I wanted to get all worked up over obvious bullshit I'd watch Fox news.

[EwokUtopia]

I do think, however, that the admins should excercise tolerance with Okocim, should he come to their attention. At worst, he should be restricted, because this debate is far too important to just cut off dialogue with the other side. I think that this thread has radicalized his beliefs, I mean, on his first post he said he wasnt extremely pro-Israel, and now he sounds like Johnny I.D.F. Settlermann.

[Okocim]

travis, is that your best? you can't offer me facts, you offer me sob stories which may or may not be true. I don't care for your sob stories, I deal in facts, I don't think that's unreasonable.

I don't want regurgitated lies.
I don't want videos of cartoons.
I want facts which you clearly cannot offer.

you just give me some bullshit about being a right wing provocateur.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 01:52 am
I don't want videos of cartoons.

Ever cross your little head that maybe, just maybe, I didnt post those for you, but for whoever may be interested?

I mean, it was in a seperate post than anything that addresses your little beliefs.

[Okocim]

Originally posted by EwokUtopia+March 12, 2007 03:03 am--> (EwokUtopia @ March 12, 2007 03:03 am)
[email protected] 12, 2007 01:52 am
I don't want videos of cartoons.

Ever cross your little head that maybe, just maybe, I didnt post those for you, but for whoever may be interested?

I mean, it was in a separate post than anything that addresses your little beliefs. [/b]
ok that's fine. I actually quite liked the song, i just didn't like that they may be directed at me. sorry.

I'm just answering your other post atm. I personally don't think I should be banned just because I happen to disagree with the lies being disseminated in the current political climate.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 01:52 am
I want facts
-In Hebron, 85% of the water is given to about 400 settlers,while 15%must be divided among Hebron's 120,000 Palestinians

-Israel has for decades routinely sent assassins in to other countries to kill its political enemies

-Israel blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship in international waters, killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors, America never did anything that approaches retaliation (very out of character, wouldnt you agree?)

-Palestinian license plates in Israel are color coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews.

-yearly US aid to Israel exceeds the aid the US grants to the whole African continent

-Israel is the only Nation in the Middle East with Nuclear Weapons.

-Israel is the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections from its sites.

-The American mainstream media is censored by many Israeli groups to keep good PR up, AIPAC first and foremost.

-90% of Palestinians were forced from their land after the 1948 war.

-Many Apartments in Israel do not lease to Arabs.

Dont forget this little joy of facts and numbers (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1738508,00.html)

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 02:08 am
I'm just answering your other post atm. I personally don't think I should be banned just because I happen to disagree with the lies being disseminated in the current political climate.
Well heres what your doing. You are comming on a very left wing site while claiming to be very left wing yourself, and trashing the rights of the indigenous people of Palestine in favour for a nation that not only happens to be one of the worlds most right wing, but is based on colonialism, ethnocentricity, mass expulsions, occupation, jingoism, and aparthied. Can you see how that raises a problem?

If your Jewish or Israeli or whatever, none of us have any problem with that whatsoever, but the fact that you are supporting an oppressive regime wont lead you very far no matter what your background is.

Lets look at it this way, suppose I come on to this forum going on and on about how Canada is the greatest nation on Earth, how we were right to enlighten the savages who lived here before, and how we need a strong government with a strong army in order to defend ourselves from terrorists who want to kill us all, I wouldnt last very long here, would I?

If someone came on here defending White South Africa in the exact same rhetorical fashion as you are defending Israel, they wouldnt last longer either.

Just because the Israeli's are Jews does not give them the right to be as oppressive or xenophobic as they are, not in a million years, and yet you will not let us forget that the Israeli's are Jews for one post. It doesnt matter if their Jews or Norwegians, or Japanese, or Morrocans, the point is they came to Palestine, forcibly took over with help from the British Empire, said the land was given to them by God, said the Arabs are savage in comparison, have been occupying what they didnt outright steal for the last 40 years (anniversary this year), threaten their neighbours, et cetera et cetera.

The fact that they are Jewish is as irrelivent as the fact that Europeans have light skin. If Europeans were green in colour, their oppression would be every bit as brutal. If the Israeli's were any other ethnicity, they would still be as brutal, and we would oppose them just as much.


And when I say "the Israeli's" and "them" I am not reffering to all Israeli's any more than someone who says "The Germans tried to conquer the world" is reffering to all Germans. In fact, I think that anti-zionist Jews, especially Israeli's, are one of the most essential assets to peace, freedom, and equality in Palestine. Israel will not, can not, and, especially considering its a nuclear state, should not be taken down from without. Change must occur from within, a united Palestinian/Israeli front against the Aparthied State is what must be formed.

Sadly, I am in Canada, and if I want to get active, my best bet is to catch the next bus to Caledonia. (http://auto_sol.tao.ca/node/view/2012)

[Okocim]

Originally posted by EwokUtopia+March 12, 2007 01:43 am--> (EwokUtopia @ March 12, 2007 01:43 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 10:18 pm

I have one Question for you, Okocim, and that is, Are you religious in any way?

what has my religion got to do with anything? it holds no bearing over my views on this.

I hope you are kidding, because I cant believe someone could be so ignorant to the nature of this conflict to say "What does my religion have anything to do with it?". The nature of Zionism in Palestine is that God gave that land to the Jews and only to the Jews, and that belief is what sustains the view that Palestine should be a Jewish state. This view is used to justify the occupation and illegal settlement of Palestinian lands by both Jewish and Christian Zionists. The vast majority of Zionists are religious, because Zionism (though opposed to many basic tennants of Judaism) remains a very religious stance. The fact that you said "What does my religion have anything to do with it" implies that you are a religious person. The fact that you are a zionist, or at least a sympathizer to zionism hints that you are either Jewish or Christian. I, unlike many here, will not hold the fact that you are religious against you, but when you use Religion to fuel such imperialistic, chauvanistic and essentially crypto-racist beliefs is a huge problem, and that is where my tolerance for religion ends.

I can not believe that your religion, if in fact you have one, holds no bearing over this view. It is like a pro-life Christian saying that his religion has no bearing over his anti-choice beliefs. [/b]

I'm personally an atheist. However if you read my replies you'd have seen that I used to be pro-Palestine before I bothered to do a little research into the matter. My background has absolutely no influence on my stance towards Israel.

anyway, the religious reason is not the only reason for the establishment of Israel there. there are many atheists as well as Jews and Christians who support it, as I've already told you there is a history there, not just that it was promised by God.


Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 01:43 am

love how the pro-Palestine side always seems to make out like the Jews simply left "Palestine" for a couple of thousand years then went back kicking people out of their homes without a care in the world rolleyes.gif

after the destruction of the second temple in 70CE, Jews continued to live there. There were large communities in Jerusalem and Tiberias by AD1000. By AD1200 there were also large communities in Jaffa, Gaza, Rafah and Casarea. By the early C19 around 10,000 Jews lived in the area, it was from this time that they went about building up a nation. The Hebrews entered the land of Israel roughly 1300BCE.

You oversimplify at best what I said. I never said the Jews all up and left. They were forced out for the most part by Roman Imperialists, but many stayed. I said, if you read carefully, that it has been 2000 years since there was a Jewish majority in Palestine. If you want to talk about the Jewish experiance in Palestine over the last two millenia, why not mention the period of time when the Catholic Spaniards kicked all the Jews and Muslims out of Spain, and many Jews sought refuge in Muslim-controlled Palestine, where they recieved an unequalled amount of tolerance for that silly, overly religious age? Or howabout the fact that all Palestinians have quite a substancial amount of Jewish blood, as the Palestinians are decended from a mix of pretty well all people who have lived in that land over the centuries? They are not simply decended from Arabians because they speak Arabic. We speak English, are we all Anglo-Saxons?

sorry, i've lost what the actual point was here? I've not said that Palestinians are all simply descended from Arabians?


Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 01:43 am

what does amaze me is that you're all arguing against Jewish nationalism but pro-"Palestinian" nationalism. There were Jews there, they expanded naturally, cultivated the land, built on it, just as they'd been doing for almost 3000 years. The British mandate merely gave them backing to do what they was already doing.

Your quite good at putting words into my mouth, arent you? Who said we were supporting Palestinian Nationalism. We are supporting the Palestinian people, who are under oppression. Should that oppression magically be reversed and a Palestinian state which is comprised only of Palestinians immerge which oppresses the Israeli's, I will support the Israeli's. But that is not going to happen. What we want is a secular, multi-ethnic state where all ethnicities and religious groups are granted equal citizenship, to be followed with a world state where all humans are equal, this is the eventual endgoal. You sound like a typical zionist, that is to say you make it out as if the end of the Jewish state means that Jews will be killed in the streets, or at least expelled from Palestine. I have met many Palestinians, and not a single one has ever said anything close to this.

no, I'm afraid you are wrong. A state where Jews were in the minority would indeed lead to total chaos. Look at the kind of hate being put out at the moment, and i'm not just talking about in PA controlled areas but across the vast majority of the Arab world.

Also I don't see what good creating another misogynistic, homophobic state in that area would do tbh.


[email protected] 12, 2007 01:43 am
What Palestinians want, in my experiances with them, is to live with the Israeli's, not under them. a Jew should have as much right to live in Ramallah as an Arab has to live in Jaffa. A Jew should have as much right to call that state Yisrael as an Arab calls if Filasteen, the last thing we need is a war over the name of the place. Neither have any right to lord over anyone else, and neither have a right to shape that land into an exclusive ethnic state.
Currently the Palestinians are forced out of their land and into the Ghetto's that are the refugee camps. Gaza is essentially a very large prison. The Palestinians are the worlds largest refugee group, while the Israeli's are living in a Neoconservative Aparthied Consumer state. Both these facts must change.
It is a great hope that in centuries to come, Palestinians and Israeli's will intermarry until they become indistinguishable, as it was intermarriage between ethnicities that gave birth to the Palestinians in the first place. But this will never happen while one oppresses the other. This will never happen while the Jewish State of Israel exists in Palestine. A Jewish state is as bad as an Afrikaner state, a White Austrailia, or any other ethnocentric colonial state that exists (of which I am a product). Do not mistake this for saying the Jews have no right to live there, they have every right, and I have every right to live in Canada. Both my people and the Israeli's need to own up to their oppressive roots, and give economic and social freedom to the people we are oppressing.

Arab Israelis have the exact same rights as Jewish Israelis.

The Palestinians have been offered peace deals, they refuse to take them, evidently preferring to resort to violence and hatred again.

Even if you do support an [absurd] one-state solution, as I assume most of you do, then you cannot simply abolish all borders and jump right to it. Palestinians have to make some concessions to their ridiculous demands, they have to accept some responsibility, they have to start sticking to their side of Oslo 2, the PA needs to get its act together and stop its own people dying of thirst because it can't be bothered to connect Israeli-built wells (see earlier post).


but for now i'm off to bed, I can see you've posted something else which i can't answer right now. but i can see you haven't sourced them so please do. I can tell you quickly though, your first point is bullshit:

according to Oslo 2 Israel was to have additional wells constructed in Hebron, this was done and 2 large wells were built. However, the PA was obliged to put down the piping to deliver the water, this has not been done. If the wells were functioning they would provide enough water for 70,000 people.

doesn't look good for the rest of your points....;)

[EwokUtopia]

Ill make this brief because I too need to go for a smoke then read then sleep.


sorry, i've lost what the actual point was here? I've not said that Palestinians are all simply descended from Arabians?

That was me going off on a bit of a tangent. Youll find that when I respond to posts, I tend to go on a rant and put my 2 cents out for whoever is reading. The point is that I was acknowledging your statements that there have been Jews in Palestine for the past 2000 years, and furthering it by saying many of them married into the consumate ethnicity that is the Palestinians today. I was also preemtivly debunking a common Zionist myth that Im sure you are intelligent enough not to espouse that goes "Palestinians are just Arabs, there is no such thing as a Palestinian Culture"


no, I'm afraid you are wrong. A state where Jews were in the minority would indeed lead to total chaos. Look at the kind of hate being put out at the moment, and i'm not just talking about in PA controlled areas but across the vast majority of the Arab world.

I do believe that Afrikaners used the same rhetoric 30 years ago. Come to think of it, most racists use the same rhetoric saying that "if the immigrants make the whites a minority there will be chaos and white blood will run through the streets". This isnt a particularly new arguement, but I will address it. Yes, there is some demonizing of Jews by Palestinians, but is there not also demonizing of Americans by Iraqi's & Vietnamese? Was there not Demonization of Germans by Poles, Russians, and Jews? Was there not Demonizing of Turks by pretty much everone else in the late Ottoman Empire? Is there not a level of Demonizing of Whites by....well, pretty much everyone we have fucked over in the last 500 years? The demonization of Jews by the Arab world is far more akin to all of these examples than it is to Hitler and all that. I do not believe that if we didnt have a white-controlled America the blacks would run amok and kill all white people, thats absurd, and yet look at the demonization of whites that you find in some parts of black America. Indeed, we must ask ourselves, is this demonization not, at least partially justifyable? If the Israeli's lose power, you will not see every Jew rounded up and killed.



Arab Israelis have the exact same rights as Jewish Israelis.

And Black,Hispanic, and Arab citizens of the US have the same rights de jure as white Americans. Whoopdeedo! This must mean that theres no Racism in the US and were all Equal!!!


The Palestinians have been offered peace deals, they refuse to take them, evidently preferring to resort to violence and hatred again.

Thats because the Peace Deals sucked and still left the Palestinians in a completely disadvantageous position. You want to stop the violence and hatred, try ending the occupation and taking down the settlements and see if there are still as many attacks and hostilities. Howabout a peace deal where Israel makes some serious concessions, as in the past 50 years Israel was the only one making any gains.


according to Oslo 2 Israel was to have additional wells constructed in Hebron, this was done and 2 large wells were built. However, the PA was obliged to put down the piping to deliver the water, this has not been done. If the wells were functioning they would provide enough water for 70,000 people.

This does not address the inequal distribution of water. You can not deny that the Settlements have luxuries that the Palestinians (especially refugees) do not. Money is one, and building pipes without it can be a tricky ordeal.


Even if you do support an [absurd] one-state solution, as I assume most of you do, then you cannot simply abolish all borders and jump right to it. Palestinians have to make some concessions to their ridiculous demands, they have to accept some responsibility, they have to start sticking to their side of Oslo 2, the PA needs to get its act together and stop its own people dying of thirst because it can't be bothered to connect Israeli-built wells (see earlier post).

Who said we want to do this overnight? Such a scenario would take decades to unfold, if it were to start tonight. Both sides need to work with eachother to make this happen, both sides need to deal with barriers in their midst, but Israeli's are the ones who must take steps against the occupation, the wall, and eventually allow Palestinians to start returning (Id say this can begin in 10 years in the best case scenario). Then they both need to start making reforms within their governments, a temperary 2 state solution may be needed, and eventually after 50 years or so, perhaps such a state can be formed. It will not happen without effort on both sides, but especially the will to reform from the Israeli's. I do not believe that outside violence will have anything but negative impacts on the situation, but a few riots from Israeli Activists in sync with another Intifada would deffinately help. Its a slow process, and a quick fix is absurd.

Now, if you have reservations about the Palestinians, nobody is forcing you to become an outspoken advocate for them, and there are plenty other issues in the world to become active in, but why do you support Israel? As a leftist, I am curious as to how you came to be an outspoken supporter of one of the worlds most reactionary states? You would think that a leftist who has reservations on Palestine would say something more like "Both sides are fucked up in different reasons, and I support neither, lets focus more on [insert social justice issue of your choice here] instead." It doesnt really seem to add up, pardon my saying so.

Also, you seem to be using the best of Israel against the worst of Palestine, and associating parties like Hamas with the Palestinian people, accusing them of mysogony, anti-semitism, and whatever else have you. At least I recognized the good in the Israeli people as well as condemning the bad.

[EwokUtopia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OBZUgJGO0E I know you said you dont want videos, but give this one a shot.

By the way, do you happen to speak Hebrew? You said you liked the Generations video, and I was wondering if you know what it is saying?

[dso79]

whether I show you on a pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian website is irrelevant, unless you can prove to me it's a lie?

I can't say for sure that what you posted is a lie but the fact that this claim can only be found on right-wing extremist websites makes it highly suspicious.

I find it rather strange that you, as a ‘leftist’, discard every bit of information from leftist sources (even Israeli leftist organizations) as ‘a blatant lie’, but at the same time you blindly believe everything that the right-wingers say.


evidence? or just wild assertions repeated verbatim off some lying propaganda leaflet?

You were the one who claimed that soldiers who commit crimes always receive appropriate punishment, so you are the one who should have provided evidence. A lot of information on this phenomenon can be found on the internet, though, but you’re probably just gonna discard it as ‘leftist propaganda’, so that makes this discussion kinda pointless.

Oh well, here are some reports from Human Rights Watch and B’tselem, an Israeli human rights group:

http://www.jmcc.org/new/06/aug/btselem.htm
http://www.btselem.org/English/Publication...ard_Routine.asp (http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/200105_Standard_Routine.asp)
http://www.ramallahonline.com/modules.php?...rticle&sid=2243 (http://www.ramallahonline.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2243)

[Seven Stars]

A two state solution, is an imperialist one.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by Irish_[email protected] 12, 2007 08:59 pm
A two state solution, is an imperialist one.
That hits the nail on the head a chara.

The only acceptable solution is one secular democratic Palestinian state in which Jews and Arabs can unite to push for the interests of the proletariat. The imperialists will only delay a resolution to the conflict, that's why they're supporting one side over the other to begin with.

[The Grey Blur]

The only acceptable solution is one secular democratic Palestinian state in which Jews and Arabs can unite to push for the interests of the proletariat.
What would be different in such a state that would make it easier to unite the Israeli and Palestinian working-classes?

I think we should push for a Socialist Palestine but with perhaps a democratic bourgeois single state seen as a step towards that...what do you think?


The imperialists will only delay a resolution to the conflict, that's why they're supporting one side over the other to begin with.
I agree. We can't rely on capitalism to solve the problems it's highest form has created.

[RedKnight]

I don't know all of the facts about the situation in Israel/Palestine. It is so very hard to get good un-biased objective information about it. But here is an article written by a muslim writer, challenging the notion that Israel has apartheid. www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21194124-7583,00.html (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21194124-7583,00.html) I just put that up for all of your consideration. I do not agree or disagree with it.

[Okocim]

Ok, ewokutopia and dso79: can you guys wait until like monday for a reply? I don't have time until then to do so (super busy) - just telling you this so you don't think I've run away or anything. ;)

I do want to continue this so please no one delete the thread.

[Angry Young Man]

The Israeli-Palestinian hatred seems to be held up by rabid religious fervour on both sides. Granted Israel doesn't have a right to statehood. No countries do. We must all rid ourselves of religious tyranny that puts us at the whims of its leaders. I have no doubt that if you take away religion, the barriers between Palestinian and Israeli would vanish. Humanity is far beyond the philistine assumption that you can characterise people by their race, so minus their respective religions, neither side would discriminate the other on the basis of skin-colour. Religion also gives the rabbis their reason to claim the land. A parallel would be like the British monarchy claiming the right to rule Britain because s/he was "chosen by God to rule".
Like Propagandhi sang, And You thought nation-states were a bad idea.

[israeli1986]

As an Israeli citizen, something which I am very proud of, I was wondering what your position on its existance, given that it is a liberal, socialist democracy. Are you pro- or anti-Israel? The far right is against Israel, they truly despise us, and they think that we shouldnt live in Israel, or in the West for that matter... Anyhow, an answer to this question would be much appreciated.

!!!עם ישראל חי

[manic expression]

I have nothing against Israelis, and I recognize and respect the efforts of many Israelis for peace and equality, but the overarching policy that Israel has undertaken for decades is simply unworthy of any respect IMO.

(semi rant below)

The Zionist settlers did nothing but throw the region into perpetual conflict, they effectively stole land and evicted the residents. Since 1947 (and arguably before that), Israel has been oppressing and destroying entire populations. Israel has relied upon tactics of theft and brutality (sometimes culminating in wholesale slaughter, as evidenced in Sabra and Shatila). The treatment of other peoples by Israel is inexplicable.

The sad thing is that the US has done far worse (100 million natives before Europeans, 3 million today).

Again, I am very aware that many Israelis are strongly commited to achieving a better world and I appreciate that immensely, but I cannot ignore what the country has done for so long. I hope my response wasn't unreasonable.

[Circle A]

גדר ההפרדה,
or the seperation fence, makes it very hard for this "liberal, socialist democracy" to actually seem like one.

Not a big fan of States of any sort really.

[israeli1986]

Originally posted by manic [email protected] 22, 2007 04:09 am
I have nothing against Israelis, but the policy that Israel has undertaken for decades is simply unworthy of any respect IMO.

The Zionist settlers did nothing but throw the region into perpetual conflict, they effectively stole land and evicted the residents. Since 1947 (and arguably before that), Israel has been oppressing and destroying entire populations. Israel has relied upon tactics of theft and brutality (sometimes culminating in wholesale slaughter, as evidenced in Sabra and Shatila). The treatment of other peoples by Israel is inexplicable and putrid.

The sad thing is that the US has done far worse (100 million natives before Europeans, 3 million today).
The problems we have are that we don't want to pack our things and leave, and it has been so long now that we can't even do that. The Arabs would kill everyone here if they invaded us, and since they refuse to accept our rights to both live and to exist, we have no choice but to keep our military so large and use it the way we do to ensure our security.

[israeli1986]

Originally posted by Circle [email protected] 22, 2007 04:14 am
גדר ההפרדה,
or the seperation fence, makes is very hard for this "liberal, socialist democracy" to actually seem like one

Not a big fan of States of any sort really.
You need to look at our social programmes, for example public healthcare, free education, help to immigrants, etc. This is the region's only free democracy, our 1 million Muslim citizens can vote, including the women, something most Muslim women can't do in their countries. Building this fence has actually stopped terrorism.

You can see more information about it at the official goverment page.
http://securityfence.mfa.gov.il/mfm/web/ma...issionID=45187& (http://securityfence.mfa.gov.il/mfm/web/main/missionhome.asp?MissionID=45187&)

[manic expression]

Originally posted by israeli1986+March 22, 2007 04:14 am--> (israeli1986 @ March 22, 2007 04:14 am)
manic [email protected] 22, 2007 04:09 am
I have nothing against Israelis, but the policy that Israel has undertaken for decades is simply unworthy of any respect IMO.

The Zionist settlers did nothing but throw the region into perpetual conflict, they effectively stole land and evicted the residents. Since 1947 (and arguably before that), Israel has been oppressing and destroying entire populations. Israel has relied upon tactics of theft and brutality (sometimes culminating in wholesale slaughter, as evidenced in Sabra and Shatila). The treatment of other peoples by Israel is inexplicable and putrid.

The sad thing is that the US has done far worse (100 million natives before Europeans, 3 million today).
The problems we have are that we don't want to pack our things and leave, and it has been so long now that we can't even do that. The Arabs would kill everyone here if they invaded us, and since they refuse to accept our rights to both live and to exist, we have no choice but to keep our military so large and use it the way we do to ensure our security. [/b]
Look, no one with a grasp of the situation is going to demand that Israelis just hop on the next plane and leave, but the fact is that your solution makes the problem worse. The reason Arabs hate Israel is because your military bulldozes houses, shells beaches, occupies huge areas, places settlers on land that doesn't belong to them, closes Palestinian borders, reduces entire countries to rubble on multiple occassions, openly insults religions just to antagonize (as in Ariel Sharon going to the Dome before the Intifada), blatantly murders innocent people and worse. The opposition you face is a RESULT of ISRAEL'S policies, policies which are beyond unjustified. The root cause needs to change, and that cause is the treatment which Israel inflicts upon others.

Yes, Israelis are not going to leave (nor should they), but there are real issues that need to be addressed, and until Israel steps up and makes amends for what it has done (things even Israelis can recognize), little will change.

My suspicion is that with such a high Palestinian birthrate and more and more Palestinian immigration into Israel, Israelis are going to begin to face a South African scenario. That is only my suspicion however, and we will see what happens.

[israeli1986]

Originally posted by manic [email protected] 22, 2007 04:24 am
[QUOTE=israeli1986,March 22, 2007 04:14 am] [QUOTE=manic expression,March 22, 2007 04:09 am]
My suspicion is that with such a high Palestinian birthrate and more and more Palestinian immigration into Israel, Israelis are going to begin to face a South African scenario. That is only my suspicion however, and we will see what happens.
That can't happen because the government banned Palestinian immigration. It is basically impossible to immigrate here without marrying someone or being Jewish. And it is also illegal for Israelis to marry Palestinians.

[manic expression]

Originally posted by israeli1986+March 22, 2007 04:21 am--> (israeli1986 @ March 22, 2007 04:21 am)
Circle [email protected] 22, 2007 04:14 am
גדר ההפרדה,
or the seperation fence, makes is very hard for this "liberal, socialist democracy" to actually seem like one

Not a big fan of States of any sort really.
You need to look at our social programmes, for example public healthcare, free education, help to immigrants, etc. This is the region's only free democracy, our 1 million Muslim citizens can vote, including the women, something most Muslim women can't do in their countries. Building this fence has actually stopped terrorism.

You can see more information about it at the official goverment page.
http://securityfence.mfa.gov.il/mfm/web/ma...issionID=45187& (http://securityfence.mfa.gov.il/mfm/web/main/missionhome.asp?MissionID=45187&) [/b]
Yeah, great, you have nice hospitals; too bad the Palestinians Israel shelled and shot and bombed and detained and deprived don't get to go to them.

And how do you "help" immigrants? By shooting them when they try to cross? Give me a break.

I should've anticipated that talking point. The wall is built on Palestinian land, being yet another example of Zionism at its ugliest.

Thanks for the official government page, we were all wondering what the Israeli government has to say about the Israeli government. :rolleyes:

[israeli1986]

Originally posted by manic expression+March 22, 2007 04:28 am--> (manic expression @ March 22, 2007 04:28 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 04:21 am

Circle [email protected] 22, 2007 04:14 am
גדר ההפרדה,
or the seperation fence, makes is very hard for this "liberal, socialist democracy" to actually seem like one

Not a big fan of States of any sort really.
You need to look at our social programmes, for example public healthcare, free education, help to immigrants, etc. This is the region's only free democracy, our 1 million Muslim citizens can vote, including the women, something most Muslim women can't do in their countries. Building this fence has actually stopped terrorism.

You can see more information about it at the official goverment page.
http://securityfence.mfa.gov.il/mfm/web/ma...issionID=45187& (http://securityfence.mfa.gov.il/mfm/web/main/missionhome.asp?MissionID=45187&)
Yeah, great, you have nice hospitals; too bad the Palestinians Israel shelled and shot and bombed and detained and deprived don't get to go to them.

And how do you "help" immigrants? By shooting them when they try to cross? Give me a break.

I should've anticipated that talking point. The wall is built on Palestinian land, being yet another example of Zionism at its ugliest.

Thanks for the official government page, we were all wondering what the Israeli government has to say about the Israeli government. :rolleyes: [/b]
Well what do you want to see, hebrew newspapers? haha

Actually Israel receives a large number of immigrants from Europe, the USA, Russia, South America, etc. and they are given financial aid, free Hebrew language education, help on finding a Job, free education, and a one year delay before they must enter the army, and also their required service is reduced by one year.

[manic expression]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 04:28 am

[QUOTE=israeli1986,March 22, 2007 04:14 am] [QUOTE=manic expression,March 22, 2007 04:09 am]
My suspicion is that with such a high Palestinian birthrate and more and more Palestinian immigration into Israel, Israelis are going to begin to face a South African scenario. That is only my suspicion however, and we will see what happens.
That can't happen because the government banned Palestinian immigration. It is basically impossible to immigrate here without marrying someone or being Jewish. And it is also illegal for Israelis to marry Palestinians.
It's illegal for Israelis to marry Palestinians? What kind of logic is behind that law (I would claim that it's racist, but I'll let you explain first and then make a judgment)?

It's great that you outlawed immigration, we did it with Mexico and it's worked wonders (heavy sarcasm). Do you think Palestinians care about Israeli law when they're in need of work? If the threat of being shot doesn't stop them, you can bet your last New Israeli Sheqel that Israeli law won't. Illegality is inconsequential.

[manic expression]

Originally posted by israeli1986+March 22, 2007 04:31 am--> (israeli1986 @ March 22, 2007 04:31 am)
Originally posted by manic [email protected] 22, 2007 04:28 am

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 04:21 am

Circle [email protected] 22, 2007 04:14 am
גדר ההפרדה,
or the seperation fence, makes is very hard for this "liberal, socialist democracy" to actually seem like one

Not a big fan of States of any sort really.
You need to look at our social programmes, for example public healthcare, free education, help to immigrants, etc. This is the region's only free democracy, our 1 million Muslim citizens can vote, including the women, something most Muslim women can't do in their countries. Building this fence has actually stopped terrorism.

You can see more information about it at the official goverment page.
http://securityfence.mfa.gov.il/mfm/web/ma...issionID=45187& (http://securityfence.mfa.gov.il/mfm/web/main/missionhome.asp?MissionID=45187&)
Yeah, great, you have nice hospitals; too bad the Palestinians Israel shelled and shot and bombed and detained and deprived don't get to go to them.

And how do you "help" immigrants? By shooting them when they try to cross? Give me a break.

I should've anticipated that talking point. The wall is built on Palestinian land, being yet another example of Zionism at its ugliest.

Thanks for the official government page, we were all wondering what the Israeli government has to say about the Israeli government. :rolleyes:
Well what do you want to see, hebrew newspapers? haha

Actually Israel receives a large number of immigrants from Europe, the USA, Russia, South America, etc. and they are given financial aid, free Hebrew language education, help on finding a Job, free education, and a one year delay before they must enter the army, and also their required service is reduced by one year. [/b]
At least you could link us to Haaretz, which has some degree of objectivity. Seriously, linking to a government site for opinions on that very government? Please tell me that you do see the inherent problem with that.

I'm well aware of Zionist immigration to Israel. However, it's convenient that Israel helps those immigrants while shooting others. The difference is something we all can figure out.

[israeli1986]

Originally posted by manic [email protected] 22, 2007 04:33 am
[QUOTE=israeli1986,March 22, 2007 04:28 am] [QUOTE=manic expression,March 22, 2007 04:24 am]
It's illegal for Israelis to marry Palestinians? What kind of logic is behind that law (I would claim that it's racist, but I'll let you explain first and then make a judgment)?

It's great that you outlawed immigration, we did it with Mexico and it's worked wonders (heavy sarcasm). Do you think Palestinians care about Israeli law when they're in need of work? If the threat of being shot doesn't stop them, you can bet your last New Israeli Sheqel that Israeli law won't. Illegality is inconsequential.
Well I think that law was put in to try and stop immigration of non-jews, we were already frauded by at least 200 000 Russians out of the 1 million who came here since the 1980s. Palestinians can get work permits to let them work in Israel this is how a very large percentage of them make their livings. The fence actually is stopping terrorism, and if America built a fence then there would be almost no illegal immigrants from Mexico. Most of Israel's illegal immigrants come from Africa and pretend that they were on religious pilgrimages. We also have some from Thailand and Vietnam, and I really dont know how they got here.

[manic expression]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 04:37 am

[QUOTE=israeli1986,March 22, 2007 04:28 am] [QUOTE=manic expression,March 22, 2007 04:24 am]
It's illegal for Israelis to marry Palestinians? What kind of logic is behind that law (I would claim that it's racist, but I'll let you explain first and then make a judgment)?

It's great that you outlawed immigration, we did it with Mexico and it's worked wonders (heavy sarcasm). Do you think Palestinians care about Israeli law when they're in need of work? If the threat of being shot doesn't stop them, you can bet your last New Israeli Sheqel that Israeli law won't. Illegality is inconsequential.
Well I think that law was put in to try and stop immigration of non-jews, we were already frauded by at least 200 000 Russians out of the 1 million who came here since the 1980s. Palestinians can get work permits to let them work in Israel this is how a very large percentage of them make their livings. The fence actually is stopping terrorism, and if America built a fence then there would be almost no illegal immigrants from Mexico. Most of Israel's illegal immigrants come from Africa and pretend that they were on religious pilgrimages. We also have some from Thailand and Vietnam, and I really dont know how they got here.
It's interesting to see how intent Israel is on preserving its "purity". If you disagree with such a characterization, then please explain how restricting non-Jewish immigration is NOT a fundamentally discriminatory policy.

Anyway, I'm quite sure that Palestinian immigrants do indeed get in, especially since there is no wall on Gaza.

[israeli1986]

Originally posted by manic [email protected] 22, 2007 04:40 am

It's interesting to see how intent Israel is on preserving its "purity". If you disagree with such a characterization, then please explain how restricting non-Jewish immigration is NOT a fundamentally discriminatory policy.

Anyway, I'm quite sure that Palestinian immigrants do indeed get in, especially since there is no wall on Gaza.
Actually there is a wall on Gaza, and they built it in 1994 :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Gaza_Strip_barrier

[manic expression]

Originally posted by israeli1986+March 22, 2007 04:42 am--> (israeli1986 @ March 22, 2007 04:42 am)
manic [email protected] 22, 2007 04:40 am

It's interesting to see how intent Israel is on preserving its "purity". If you disagree with such a characterization, then please explain how restricting non-Jewish immigration is NOT a fundamentally discriminatory policy.

Anyway, I'm quite sure that Palestinian immigrants do indeed get in, especially since there is no wall on Gaza.
Actually there is a wall on Gaza, and they built it in 1994 :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Gaza_Strip_barrier [/b]
Yes I know there is a barrier, but it isn't nearly as imposing as the other (apartheid) wall. One thing is clear: Palestinians are still getting across.

[israeli1986]

Originally posted by manic [email protected] 22, 2007 04:43 am

Yes I know there is a barrier, but it isn't nearly as imposing as the other (apartheid) wall. One thing is clear: Palestinians are still getting across.
Most of the West Bank barrier is a fence and not a wall, do you have any idea how much that concrete would cost? And Palestinians are getting across both borders, where do you think the people of Ramallah work... Jerusalem

[manic expression]

Originally posted by israeli1986+March 22, 2007 04:47 am--> (israeli1986 @ March 22, 2007 04:47 am)
manic [email protected] 22, 2007 04:43 am

Yes I know there is a barrier, but it isn't nearly as imposing as the other (apartheid) wall. One thing is clear: Palestinians are still getting across.
Most of the West Bank barrier is a fence and not a wall, do you have any idea how much that concrete would cost? And Palestinians are getting across both borders, where do you think the people of Ramallah work... Jerusalem [/b]
So people are getting across. That was what I was saying.

[Circle A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 04:28 am

It is basically impossible to immigrate here without marrying someone or being Jewish. And it is also illegal for Israelis to marry Palestinians.
Illegal for Israelis to marry Palestinians? :o That is fucked up.

Who else isn't allowed to marry?
Gays?
Israelis and any non Israelis? Or just Paelestinians muslim or Christian?

Doesn't sound democratic or liberal, sorry.

[israeli1986]

Originally posted by Circle [email protected] 22, 2007 05:00 am
Illegal for Israelis to marry Palestinians? :o That is fucked up.

Who else isn't allowed to marry?
Gays?
Israelis and any non Israelis? Or just Paelestinians muslim or Christian?

Doesn't sound democratic or liberal, sorry.
Well the only legal marriages in Israel are religiously preformed, so a bastard child has to leave Israel to marry, same with anyone who wants to marry a Christian, etc. Foreign marriages are legally accepted, this includes gays. Although, because of the religious rules for marriage, gays can't marry in Israel.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by israeli1986+March 22, 2007 03:03 pm--> (israeli1986 @ March 22, 2007 03:03 pm)
Circle [email protected] 22, 2007 05:00 am
Illegal for Israelis to marry Palestinians? :o That is fucked up.

Who else isn't allowed to marry?
Gays?
Israelis and any non Israelis? Or just Paelestinians muslim or Christian?

Doesn't sound democratic or liberal, sorry.
Well the only legal marriages in Israel are religiously preformed, so a bastard child has to leave Israel to marry, same with anyone who wants to marry a Christian, etc. Foreign marriages are legally accepted, this includes gays. Although, because of the religious rules for marriage, gays can't marry in Israel. [/b]
So as far as marriage goes it&#39;s a theocracy? <_<

[israeli1986]

Originally posted by black [email protected] 22, 2007 05:09 am
So as far as marriage goes it&#39;s a theocracy? <_<
Unfortunately, and this is all because of Shas and United Torah Judaism parties they are the hassidic political parties and they hold around 20% of the seats in the Knesset.

[Circle A]

Originally posted by israeli1986+March 22, 2007 05:03 am--> (israeli1986 &#064; March 22, 2007 05:03 am)
Circle [email protected] 22, 2007 05:00 am
Illegal for Israelis to marry Palestinians? :o That is fucked up.

Who else isn&#39;t allowed to marry?
Gays?
Israelis and any non Israelis? Or just Paelestinians muslim or Christian?

Doesn&#39;t sound democratic or liberal, sorry.
Well the only legal marriages in Israel are religiously preformed, so a bastard child has to leave Israel to marry, same with anyone who wants to marry a Christian, etc. Foreign marriages are legally accepted, this includes gays. Although, because of the religious rules for marriage, gays can&#39;t marry in Israel.[/b]
So, if you were to go abroad to marry a palestinian, then return to Israel ....
would you be punished due to the illegality?
Or do you mean is it illegal just in the sense that the rabbis won&#39;t perform the ceremony?
:wacko:
Im a bit lost, so thanks for the impending reply.

P.s. what do you mean by bastard child?

[israeli1986]

Originally posted by Circle [email protected] 22, 2007 05:13 am

So, if you were to go abroad to marry a palestinian, then return to Israel ....
would you be punished due to the illegality?
Or do you mean is it illegal just in the sense that the rabbis won&#39;t perform the ceremony?
:wacko:
Im a bit lost, so thanks for the impending reply.

P.s. what do you mean by bastard child?
I think she would be banned immigration, but no Palestinian man would allow his daughter to marry an Jew, in Israel women have the right to choose. I think this law is to prevent Arab Israelis from marrying Palestinians.

A bastard child, or mamzer (ממזר), is someone who is born to two unmarried jewish parents. The child of a Jewish woman and a non-jewish man is not considered a mamzer, but instead a Jew. this is because of rabbinical law that a mamzer cannot marry.

Heres what I think of the hassidic people, I almost voted shinui....
http://www.youtube.com./watch?v=a8C1iU-xAog

[MarxistFuture]

It is a terrorist state, it is racist in nature ( the Government said it is their right to be racist recently ) and should be opposed by anyone on the political left in my opinion.

[Raúl Duke]

( the Government said it is their right to be racist recently )

I don&#39;t want to sound pro-anything; but that article had a sarcastic note critiquing the government and it was written for a pro-palestinian website. The article is stating that the government belives its their right to be rascist yet the government of isreal has never proclaim this "right" to the international community or to any news. The article was more of a political analysis.


&#33;&#33;&#33;עם ישראל חי

What does this mean?

[RNK]

I&#39;ve talked to many Israelis, as well as Palestinians, and I have to say this...

I have no respect for the Israeli state. Although that isn&#39;t saying much on its own.. I have contempt for the Israeli state. I believe that what happened in Palestine is one of the most tragic incidents of the 20th century, and ranks right up there with the holocaust of the Native Americans during European colonization, and the holocaust of European Jews during the 30s and 40s. There are so very many instances of horror and abuse, I don&#39;t think I could ever write them all even if I wanted to... sufficed to say, Israel began its existence in the aftermath of a very deadly jewish fundamentalist "terror" campaign which saw a slew of non-Jews bombed, beaten and assassinated to make way for a Jewish state. What&#39;s worse, the Jewish &#39;terrorists&#39; which were responsible for the majority of the bloodshed were given full pardons by the new Israeli government and their organizations were assimilated into the Israeli Defense Forces. Not only that but throughout its history since, Israel has praised these "terrorists" as national heroes, even going so far as to declare a Lehi Medal. Ontop of that, former leaders of these &#39;terrorists&#39; movements, who were themselves directly responsible for murdering innocent Arabs and Britons, were made Presidents&#33;

This fact, ontop of the systematic illegal aquisition of Arab land, the illegal construction of settlements and the frequent occupations, military incursions and deadly attacks, that began in 1948 and to this day have not ended, have had an incredibly detrimental impact on Palestinian society. Palestinians live in a 3rd world country, whatever your proclamations and praises of the current Israeli system are.

Also, like I said I&#39;ve talked with many Israelis including one who was in the IDF for some time... and I have to say they were almost all incredibly scary people... inparticular, one Israeli I talked to tried to convince me that Palestinians do not exist. There are only Arabs; the idea of a Palestinian state is a pipedream, a fantasy. All of that land belongs to the Jewish people, bar none...

Also let&#39;s not forget the programs of Arab re-allocation initiated by Israel in 1948... one that saw millions of Arabs forced from their homes, some at gunpoint, others simply by their homes beind destroyed. Most fled from intimidation. This was the point of the program, to put it in their words, to "uproot and drive away" the Arabs in order to claim the land for Jewish settlers...

To that end I stand by my conviction that Israel ranks with Nazi Germany, Pol Pot&#39;s Cambodia, Franco&#39;s Spain and Mussolini&#39;s Italy as the most oppressive, most abusive countries ever to exist in modern history. Any amount of "social freedom" available in Israel is excluded from Arabs who live in aboslute filth and shit and although I don&#39;t live there, I can say with all honesty that if I did, I would not be proud of it for one second.

[Okocim]

hello Nomen Nescio

comrades, this poster appears to be a fascist troll from stormfront:

Posted: Today at 04:52 am:


Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 04:52 am
As an Israeli citizen, something which I am very proud of, I was wondering what your position on its existance, given that it is a liberal, socialist democracy. Are you pro- or anti-Israel? The far right is against Israel, they truly despise us, and they think that we shouldnt live in Israel, or in the West for that matter... Anyhow, an answer to this question would be much appreciated.

&#33;&#33;&#33;עם ישראל חי

and on scumfront:
http://www.storm front.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4026379&postcount=245

Posted: Today, 05:24 AM


Well, I just chummed &#39;em with a little bait ... let&#39;s see if they swallow it ...

NN


I could be wrong, in which case I apologise, but it is quite a coincidence. Especially when I read the content of your posts here which seem to have an underlying motive of inciting hatred against Israel.

[Okocim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 10:32 am

&#33;&#33;&#33;עם ישראל חי

What does this mean?
something like "the people of Israel will live" :unsure:

[Tower of Bebel]

There was once a thread in which someone from the board posted a whole list of things about Israel. Like licence plates that distinguish jews from not jews or something. Correct me if this was not on the list, or if it&#39;s just wrong.

[Cheung Mo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 03:52 am
As an Israeli citizen, something which I am very proud of, I was wondering what your position on its existance, given that it is a liberal, socialist democracy. Are you pro- or anti-Israel? The far right is against Israel, they truly despise us, and they think that we shouldnt live in Israel, or in the West for that matter... Anyhow, an answer to this question would be much appreciated.

&#33;&#33;&#33;עם ישראל חי
Greece, Assyria, and Rome (as opposed to Arab Muslims) kicked your ancestors&#39; asses and began the Disapora long before the world took serious notice of their puny tribe. Get over it. Don&#39;t take it out on the people who have nothing to do with it. You&#39;re no better or worse than any other nation or civilisation, your fucking deity and his deranged creators were among the world&#39;s first fascists, and your moral code and the antecedents that influenced it represent the great lie on which many modern societies are still built. (The ruling class in many parts of Europe (first under Emperor Constantine the Great) decided that their take on some reactionary missionary&#39;s interpretation of a fringe Jewish preacher was the best means of controlling the people they ruled and the people elsewhere in the world that they would later colonialise.)

I am certain that my ancestors committed genocide and justified it with some sort of airy-fairy bullshit. And if we are to believe the Abrahamic Scriptures, so too did yours. Being the chosen people of a non-existent deity and then committing atrocities in that deity&#39;s name doesn&#39;t make your ancestors special; it makes them proto-Nazis. Chosen people is the same damn concept as master race or white power, and you damn well know it. The only differences between Hitler and Joshua are that there were fewer people for Joshua (and his successors, Judges and Kings alike) to butcher due to lower global population in whogivesaflyingfuck BCE relative to the 1930s and that the means of liquidating large numbers of human beings were nowhere near as efficient due to antiquity&#39;s technological deficit relative to modernity.

Why do you need to plan your life around prophecy and hocus-pocus? Why is anyone living today willing to kill someone and insist that other nations fight on their behalf over, let along even give a damn about which of a mythological figure&#39;s sons was to be the father of a demented sky-deity&#39;s chosen people?

I&#39;ve read my Bible, and all I have to say is leave the mystical to escapist fiction and stop using it to control our fucking lives.

[CodeAires]

I am Pro-Isreal and always will be. I know that Hebrews/Isralis/Jews have struggled to exist practically since the beginning of time and I support their right to have a free state. However, I do not like groups of Jews in Israel who feel that they must push around Palestenians and keep them from having land as well. It&#39;s really a hard situation. There are too many people and not enough land.

I think in reality that the best solution would be to move the Palestenians to the Sinai Peninsula (seeing as how Egypt never seems to know what to do with it), and all would be settled. Sadly, it&#39;s not that easy...

Hang in there. You have my support ;)

[Cheung Mo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 05:21 pm
I am Pro-Isreal and always will be. I know that Hebrews/Isralis/Jews have struggled to exist practically since the beginning of time and I support their right to have a free state. However, I do not like groups of Jews in Israel who feel that they must push around Palestenians and keep them from having land as well. It&#39;s really a hard situation. There are too many people and not enough land.

I think in reality that the best solution would be to move the Palestenians to the Sinai Peninsula (seeing as how Egypt never seems to know what to do with it), and all would be settled. Sadly, it&#39;s not that easy...

Hang in there. You have my support ;)
Their "struggle" included the genocide of many people&#39;s living in and around Palestine thousands of years ago. We ought not to punish modern Jews for the crime of the Ancient Hebrews (It would be not only inhumane and unjust, but also a logical contradiction. For punishing descendants like that would only makes sense within the framework of the Abrahamic Sky Fairy&#39;s "words", which we as freethinkers should be able to wholeheartedly accept as bullshit. Furthermore, as all of our ancestors are party to some degree of geoncide and ethnic cleansing, we&#39;d all be spending our lives seeking revenge for the crimes of antiquity rather than spending that time bettering material conditions for ourselves, our loved ones, and our world.), but there is no more of a logical reason to create Israel and allow settlers to expel the people already living there than their is to grant the same privilege to one of the many other groups that were severely repressed in Tsarist Russia and the other despotic regimes of Christendom.

[CodeAires]

Well, being Catholic myelf, I can say that Isreal has been beat up on many times, and I would not lightly say that Abraham&#39;s teachings are BS. Where&#39;s that aspect of an open mind?

As stated before, no race or people is without sin, but I do feel for Israelis who have suffered repeatedly and just want a place to go.

[Cheung Mo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 05:44 pm
Well, being Catholic myelf, I can say that Isreal has been beat up on many times, and I would not lightly say that Abraham&#39;s teachings are BS. Where&#39;s that aspect of an open mind?

As stated before, no race or people is without sin, but I do feel for Israelis who have suffered repeatedly and just want a place to go.
Are you even familiar with Genesis? Abraham wasn&#39;t a teacher or a philosopher: He was just some guy chosen by Yhwh to be the ancestor of the Chosen People. It is believed that Ishmael (his first son, whom he conceived with his servant Hagar due to the infertility of his wife Sarah) is the father of the Arabs and that Isaac (his second son, whom he conceived after Yhwh miraculously made Sarah fertile...I have a hard time typing this without bursting out into laughter, to be honest with you...It&#39;s as nuts as those people earlier in Genesis who lived to be in excess of 600 years old.) is the father of the Hebrews.

Moses was the prophet who laid out the laws that formed the basis of Hebrew civilisation. I won&#39;t waste my time discrediting Moses: Robert Ingersoll and countless others do a much better job of that that I ever could.

[The Grey Blur]

I am Pro-Isreal and always will be.
Despite the racism of the state of Israel towards Arabs, it&#39;s relentless oppression of Palestinians (relentless cultural and political repression, giant walls hemming them in, mass murder such as Sabra and Shatila) and it&#39;s political actions such as invading Lebanon which resulted in 1000s of death?

Israel is an oppressor state - maybe it didn&#39;t start off like that, but that&#39;s how it is now and we deal with the present. I support those left groups in Israel which seek to unite with the oppressed Palestinians in seeking a solution there but the rest can go to hell.

[Question everything]

I&#39;ve got nothing against Israelis, or the Jewish religion but the State of Israel is probably worse than the U.S., look at what they are doing to Palestine, it is disgusting.

[israeli1986]

Originally posted by Okocim+March 22, 2007 01:49 pm--> (Okocim @ March 22, 2007 01:49 pm) hello Nomen Nescio

comrades, this poster appears to be a fascist troll from stormfront:

Posted: Today at 04:52 am:


[email protected] 22, 2007 04:52 am
As an Israeli citizen, something which I am very proud of, I was wondering what your position on its existance, given that it is a liberal, socialist democracy. Are you pro- or anti-Israel? The far right is against Israel, they truly despise us, and they think that we shouldnt live in Israel, or in the West for that matter... Anyhow, an answer to this question would be much appreciated.

&#33;&#33;&#33;עם ישראל חי

and on scumfront:
http://www.storm front.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4026379&postcount=245

Posted: Today, 05:24 AM


Well, I just chummed &#39;em with a little bait ... let&#39;s see if they swallow it ...

NN


I could be wrong, in which case I apologise, but it is quite a coincidence. Especially when I read the content of your posts here which seem to have an underlying motive of inciting hatred against Israel. [/b]
I will admit that I have posted there, but only to argue with them since their position is something that I cannot possibly agree with. You did however quote the wrong person, and if you check for anything I&#39;ve posted there, you will see that I am anti-nazi, anti-fascism. I posted on their site under the name cohen1986, and you will see my arguments against them, that have been ignored by them.

Actually, I&#39;m actually quite surprised by the fact that both sides of the political spectrum hate Israel, I would have thought that communists would be much less hateful of my country.

[israeli1986]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 01:54 pm
There was once a thread in which someone from the board posted a whole list of things about Israel. Like licence plates that distinguish jews from not jews or something. Correct me if this was not on the list, or if it&#39;s just wrong.
Originally the identity cards identifed Jews as an ethnicity, this has been changed to Israeli, because the Orthodox Rabbis refuse to consider Reform Jews as being Jewish.

[manic expression]

Originally posted by israeli1986+March 22, 2007 09:06 pm--> (israeli1986 @ March 22, 2007 09:06 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 01:49 pm
hello Nomen Nescio

comrades, this poster appears to be a fascist troll from stormfront:

Posted: Today at 04:52 am:


[email protected] 22, 2007 04:52 am
As an Israeli citizen, something which I am very proud of, I was wondering what your position on its existance, given that it is a liberal, socialist democracy. Are you pro- or anti-Israel? The far right is against Israel, they truly despise us, and they think that we shouldnt live in Israel, or in the West for that matter... Anyhow, an answer to this question would be much appreciated.

&#33;&#33;&#33;עם ישראל חי

and on scumfront:
http://www.storm front.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4026379&postcount=245

Posted: Today, 05:24 AM


Well, I just chummed &#39;em with a little bait ... let&#39;s see if they swallow it ...

NN


I could be wrong, in which case I apologise, but it is quite a coincidence. Especially when I read the content of your posts here which seem to have an underlying motive of inciting hatred against Israel.
I will admit that I have posted there, but only to argue with them since their position is something that I cannot possibly agree with. You did however quote the wrong person, and if you check for anything I&#39;ve posted there, you will see that I am anti-nazi, anti-fascism. I posted on their site under the name cohen1986, and you will see my arguments against them, that have been ignored by them.

Actually, I&#39;m actually quite surprised by the fact that both sides of the political spectrum hate Israel, I would have thought that communists would be much less hateful of my country. [/b]
The right wing hates Israel simply because it is Jewish and nothing more.

The left wing hates (if you want to call it "hate") Israel because of its policies and actions.

There is a big, big, big difference there and you would do well to understand that.

[Pirate Utopian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 10:06 pm
Actually, I&#39;m actually quite surprised by the fact that both sides of the political spectrum hate Israel, I would have thought that communists would be much less hateful of my country.
yeah what&#39;s wrong with those communists dont like racist capitalist theocracies who kicked a shitload of people just because they thought they were choosen by god&#33;

seriously no offense towards jews or israelians but fuck israel

[RNK]

Yes. Please don&#39;t do what most israelis do, and confuse our hatred for the actions of the state of Israel with any sort of racism or anti-semetism against the Jewish people.

[israeli1986]

Originally posted by manic expression+March 22, 2007 09:16 pm--> (manic expression @ March 22, 2007 09:16 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 09:06 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 01:49 pm
hello Nomen Nescio

comrades, this poster appears to be a fascist troll from stormfront:

Posted: Today at 04:52 am:


[email protected] 22, 2007 04:52 am
As an Israeli citizen, something which I am very proud of, I was wondering what your position on its existance, given that it is a liberal, socialist democracy. Are you pro- or anti-Israel? The far right is against Israel, they truly despise us, and they think that we shouldnt live in Israel, or in the West for that matter... Anyhow, an answer to this question would be much appreciated.

&#33;&#33;&#33;עם ישראל חי

and on scumfront:
http://www.storm front.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4026379&postcount=245

Posted: Today, 05:24 AM


Well, I just chummed &#39;em with a little bait ... let&#39;s see if they swallow it ...

NN


I could be wrong, in which case I apologise, but it is quite a coincidence. Especially when I read the content of your posts here which seem to have an underlying motive of inciting hatred against Israel.
I will admit that I have posted there, but only to argue with them since their position is something that I cannot possibly agree with. You did however quote the wrong person, and if you check for anything I&#39;ve posted there, you will see that I am anti-nazi, anti-fascism. I posted on their site under the name cohen1986, and you will see my arguments against them, that have been ignored by them.

Actually, I&#39;m actually quite surprised by the fact that both sides of the political spectrum hate Israel, I would have thought that communists would be much less hateful of my country.
The right wing hates Israel simply because it is Jewish and nothing more.

The left wing hates (if you want to call it "hate") Israel because of its policies and actions.

There is a big, big, big difference there and you would do well to understand that. [/b]
You may be telling the truth, but communism has never been friendly to the Jewish community. Also, an incredible percentage of Western populations are anti-semetic, so I really should have expected this anyway, some people will hate us because of our ethnicity, and traits associated with it, and others because of our government policies.

[manic expression]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 09:21 pm
You may be telling the truth, but communism has never been friendly to the Jewish community. Also, an incredible percentage of Western populations are anti-semetic, so I really should have expected this anyway, some people will hate us because of our ethnicity, and traits associated with it, and others because of our government policies.
That&#39;s simply untrue. The Bolsheviks made huge strides in fighting anti-semitism in Russia (in fact, a professor at Jerusalem University stated that the Bolsheviks&#39; attempts to combat anti-semitism were the first significant efforts of its type in European history).

When it comes to Judaism the religion, many communists treat EVERY religion in the same manner, so Judaism is FAR from being singled out.

And spare me your epic persecution complex. People who hate Israel&#39;s policies of ethnic cleansing and oppression are NOT automatically anti-semitic, and it is both ignorant and ludicrous to assert as much. It&#39;s not your ethnicity or your religion, it&#39;s the fact that you are stealing people&#39;s land and killing innocents.

Oh, and in case no one told you, Jews have been EXTREMELY active in the communist movement.

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 12:21 pm
I am Pro-Isreal and always will be. I know that Hebrews/Isralis/Jews have struggled to exist practically since the beginning of time and I support their right to have a free state. However, I do not like groups of Jews in Israel who feel that they must push around Palestenians and keep them from having land as well. It&#39;s really a hard situation. There are too many people and not enough land.

I think in reality that the best solution would be to move the Palestenians to the Sinai Peninsula (seeing as how Egypt never seems to know what to do with it), and all would be settled. Sadly, it&#39;s not that easy...

Hang in there. You have my support ;)
So, you propose just taking all the Palestinians and replanting them against their will? What the fuck kind of leftist are you?

That same question goes to israeli1986, how can you consider yourself a leftist when you support barrier walls to keep out "illegal" immigrants. Also, don&#39;t you think it&#39;s a little, I don&#39;t know, undemocratic to force citizens to serve in the armed forces?


and others because of our government policies.
You&#39;re damn fuckin&#39; right we hate your government policies and for very good reasons.

Do you honestly think that by fencing in an entire population that you will actually pacify them?

Also, a question for you on Israel&#39;s governmental actions: do you support the bombing of the Gaza Strip&#39;s only power plant by the IDF while they were searching for Shalit?

I could, and probably will, say a lot more, but I don&#39;t have too much time right now.

[grove street]

Originally posted by israeli1986+March 22, 2007 04:21 am--> (israeli1986 @ March 22, 2007 04:21 am)
Circle [email protected] 22, 2007 04:14 am
גדר ההפרדה,
or the seperation fence, makes is very hard for this "liberal, socialist democracy" to actually seem like one

Not a big fan of States of any sort really.
You need to look at our social programmes, for example public healthcare, free education, help to immigrants, etc. This is the region&#39;s only free democracy, our 1 million Muslim citizens can vote, including the women, something most Muslim women can&#39;t do in their countries. Building this fence has actually stopped terrorism.

You can see more information about it at the official goverment page.
http://securityfence.mfa.gov.il/mfm/web/ma...issionID=45187& (http://securityfence.mfa.gov.il/mfm/web/main/missionhome.asp?MissionID=45187&) [/b]
In most Middle Eastern countries there is no voting full stop. This has nothing to do with the western propaganda that all Middle Eastern countries beside Israel are ruled by crazy Mullahs who go around beating women, but because most Middle Eastern countries are secular dictatorships like the Baath (socialist) party in Syria and the Baath party in Iraq before the US invasion.

The only Islamic theocracies in the Middle East are Saudi Arabia where no one gets to vote because it is a U.S puppet royal dictatorship and Iran where both men and women get to vote for their president.

Lebanon is a secualr democracy, so that ruins your rant that Israel is the only secular democracy in the Middle East.

[Lenin II]

OK, I know this is a generic statement but it bears repeating now. I HATE how you cannot criticize Israel without being called anti-Semitic. It seems like it wouldn’t be that way but bring it up with some friends sometime. As soon as you say you disagree with Israel’s policies and the constant US backing of Israel’s terror campaigns, someone will bring up anti-Semitism. And yet supporters of the Iraq war can drone on for hours about how the Islamic governments are “threats to world peace” and not get called anti-Islamic, when most of them actually are at heart.

[ExpansiveThought]

It&#39;s definately sad that any palestine supporter is labeled an anti-semite.
What disgusts me the most about the entire situation is the recognition israel has recieved from the international community since its outset, and what SICKENS ME is the US backing they perpetually recieve. They are supplied with state of the art weaponry to perpetrate their crimes of oppression.

[RNK]

It&#39;s not that Israel has unanimous international support. Throughout it&#39;s very brutal history the United Nations (as defunct as that institution is) attempted to issue dozens and dozens of sanctions and condemnations and mandates against Israel for pretty much all of its crimes -- from illegally occupying land, to marching its military in victory parades through cities they&#39;d captured. For the most part, it has been the United States, and occasionally Canada, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, that have &#39;bailed them out&#39; and shot down these attempts to resolve international pressure against them.

[Reuben]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 10:20 pm
It&#39;s definately sad that any palestine supporter is labeled an anti-semite.
What disgusts me the most about the entire situation is the recognition israel has recieved from the international community since its outset, and what SICKENS ME is the US backing they perpetually recieve. They are supplied with state of the art weaponry to perpetrate their crimes of oppression.
It is quite conspicous the amount of US backing Israel recieves in light of the hushedly discussed JEWISH 911 CONSPIRACY<--google that. I think it&#39;s all part of a larger conspiracy so complex it will be too late to reverse by the time it is fully discovered.
And for fuck&#39;s sake im not an anti semite.
the bit about you not being an anti semite made me laugh so hard. We do not tolerate jewish conspiracy theorists on revleft

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 08:20 am
It is quite conspicous the amount of US backing Israel recieves in light of the hushedly discussed JEWISH 911 CONSPIRACY<--google that. I think it&#39;s all part of a larger conspiracy so complex it will be too late to reverse by the time it is fully discovered.
And for fuck&#39;s sake im not an anti semite.
So it&#39;s just a coincidence that when you google &#39;Jewish 9/11 Conspiracy&#39; a whole bunch of anti-semitic far-right conspiracy sites come up?

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 06:20 pm
in light of the hushedly discussed JEWISH 911 CONSPIRACY<--google that. I think it&#39;s all part of a larger conspiracy so complex it will be too late to reverse by the time it is fully discovered.

You said that, but all I heard was, "sieg heil, sieg heil&#33;"


And for fuck&#39;s sake im not an anti semite.

IN that case niether was Hitler, ;) .

[ExpansiveThought]

K coincidence maybe, but theres way too many coincidences sorrounding the whole thing.
Maybe my statement about a larger conspiracy came off as rascist but im not singling out the jewish people by any measure. Theres certain members of their society who are clearly up to no good for example the members of their fucking israeli government who perpetrate these same human rights violations you so fervently oppose. Just like there is in any culture ethnicity or any kind of fictional social division of that nature. I am not trying to fucking scapegoat them. Jews are definately not the worlds problem, global capitalism is. That being said maybe i should i have researched it more.

In any case, i would very pleased if you would point me to a thread that debunks this &#39;conspiracy&#39; theory. I suppose these polemics are an anti-semites wet dream and as such are often harnessed for the purpose of racialist propaganda, however i dont think that we should let this put an end to an unbiased consideration of facts in the interest of political correctness, if tehre was indeed some kind of conspiracy this would be exactly the reaction that the state would desire from the populace at its proposition. And so, I would like for you too enlighten me with some resources where this polemic is debunked.

[Cryotank Screams]

9/11 conspiracies are blatantly idiotic, the planes hit the building, it collapsed, the people who did it, where islamic-fascists, associated with various reactionary groups, that being said, it is the American government who has used this act, for their own obscene benefits, via propaganda, exaggerations, exploitation, and other tactics, to justify their own atrocities, and economic cravings in the name of “justice,” and “payback.”

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

And no, I don&#39;t support Israel.

[The Grey Blur]

What is an "Islamic-fascist"?

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by Permanent [email protected] 24, 2007 03:37 pm
What is an "Islamic-fascist"?
An islamic fundamentalist reactionary, that&#39;s politics are relative in a very broad sense to fascism, via it&#39;s oppression, and reactionary and counter-revolutionary views, philosophy, and politics and the like.

Not really an ideology per se, just a name.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 12:03 pm
In any case, i would very pleased if you would point me to a thread that debunks this &#39;conspiracy&#39; theory.
Here ya go. (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/israel.htm)

For further reading. (http://forums.randi.org/local_links.php?catid=18)


i dont think that we should let this put an end to an unbiased consideration of facts

Good. Please start considering facts, then.

[The Grey Blur]

An islamic fundamentalist reactionary, that&#39;s politics are relative in a very broad sense to fascism, via it&#39;s oppression, and reactionary and counter-revolutionary views, philosophy, and politics and the like.

Not really an ideology per se, just a name.
All capitalist nations are reactionary and oppressive by structure; fascism is a select term given to those movements which coopt and destroy revolutionary worker&#39;s movements in their ascent to power, and retain it with repression and indoctrination of the working-class.

The philosophy and politics behind fascism and extremist Islam are entirely, entirely different, comparing the two cheapens our understanding of both.

[Reuben]

permanent revolution is right. The tconcept of Fascism needs to be used as a proper tool of analysis tool of analysis, not simply a pejorative term for any extreme form of reaction

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by Permanent [email protected] 26, 2007 11:20 am
All capitalist nations are reactionary and oppressive by structure; fascism is a select term given to those movements which coopt and destroy revolutionary worker&#39;s movements in their ascent to power, and retain it with repression and indoctrination of the working-class.


o_O

I know.


The philosophy and politics behind fascism and extremist Islam are entirely, entirely different, comparing the two cheapens our understanding of both.

Again I know, it&#39;s just a slang name, like nazi scum, or something, it wasn&#39;t a set ideological term, which is what I said earlier, it&#39;s a name, nothing more.