Since Politics is a science, dont you expect advances?

[Supermodel]

This is just a general comment on the "debates" we have on the C-v-S board.

Don't you think that any political manifesto can, should, and will inevitably change with the times?

And that such changes are inevitable and cannot be resisted?

Right now I beleive the world is closer to moderation in the fields of communism and capitalism, yet the true gaping whole in world society is the philosohical difference between Eastern religions, Aetheism, and Judeo-Christianity.

The biggest differences here are views of the value of life, life after death, and the equality of all men and of women with men.


In short: is the battle between left and right over, yet the battle of east versus west only beginning?

[James]

Good post supermodel. Me and a friend (blackflag) were talking about similar stuff the other day.

Don't you think that any political manifesto can, should, and will inevitably change with the times?

And that such changes are inevitable and cannot be resisted?


I agree, i'd say this is why communism has been, to an extent, a failure - all "communists" have been afraid to change/evolve the manifesto.

In short: is the battle between left and right over, yet the battle of east versus west only beginning?


Again i agree, have you read "clash of civilisations" ? Its basically about this. Many think that this is the biggest threat to world peace etc, the calsh of cultures etc

[Ian]

I don't see any conflict between east and west, I see the conflict you are talking about as a conflict (still) between the rich and the poor nations of the world, anyway I am bored sorry (or maybe it's a good thing) I won't go into detail

[peaccenicked]

Socialism has to adapt to survive, this means keeping abreast of the issues. At this point in history, when we are objetively weak, we can't become subjectively strong by digging a dogmatic fort. We should be focussing on the environment and immigration issues that are relatively modern. However, nothing should be neglected.
The east/ west debate is tends to belong in the realm of spirituality whether we look in or out, or save or souls or try to become at one with nature.
The scientific socialism which takes ideas lock stock and barrel from Hegel has much of its roots in eastern mysticism. In fact Aristotle who was very much the authority in Europe up to the enlightenment is also influenced by eastern thought.
It might be fair to say that scientific thought has an eastern feel to it where the west has more a feel of money . Yet it would be a mistake to make more concrete over generalisations.
Our struggle is for the primacy of science in the management of society, universally. I use the word 'primacy' in an inclusive manner. Indeed science is not exclusive by nature.

[Mazdak]

But when it adapts, you criticize it. For example, Mao had peasants as the backbone of his revolution because China wasnt very industrial. He had to "modify" socialism to fit his country.

[Ymir]

Good point Mazdak.

[peaccenicked]

Mao was certainly adaptive but he did not lead China into socialism but set up an elite who paid lip sevice to socialist ideas but done what they saw fit to maintain power.
The issues are indeed complex.
Here is the end of a letter to the workers weekly.
''The gospel according to Dave goes something like this:- 'Past attempts to achieve salvation (socialism/communism) have now revealed themselves to be false starts, because they have not found the necessary religious practice (technology) or taken sufficient account of god's will (the world market). However, information technology and the world market taken together form a beam of the perfect light. And true believers know that this perfect light is merely the opaque veil disguising the future 'international socialist' heaven on earth. However, we must be patient and show fortitude. At present we must follow Dave the sceptic and dismiss all premature attempts to move towards socialism. These can only be doomed to perdition (national socialism). But Dave still has faith in our salvation in the future, provided we follow him in the true religion. Now whilst Dave is clear as to the hell which awaits us if we try to seek a premature salvation, he is decidedly coy over the vales of tears and tribulation which millions of workers and oppressed have already experienced over the last century by giving unto Caesar what is Caesar's (continued capitalist production relations) whilst trying to seek mercy and tame his terrible anger through collective prayer ('workers' power').'

Dave is offering us a reconstruction of the 'Titanic'. He still has not come to terms with the events of the last century. "The brutality of Stalin's USSR, Mao's China, Kim Il Sung's North Korea, Ceasescu's Romania and Pol Pot's Kampuchea, along with the stifling of democracy, the bureaucratic privileges, the countless petty regulations, the economic waste and environmental destruction that characterised all the regimes where 'revolutionary' social democrats (calling themselves communists) have led to widespread distrust by workers towards those advocating a communist alternative. Despite the current crisis-ridden trajectory of international capitalism, with all the misery it brings in its train, the memory and failure of the official communist alternative remains the most important material factor preventing workers fighting for a new emancipatory alternative" (Draft programme of the Communist Tendency). Or, as Marx might have said, "The traditions of all the past generations (and the outdated thinking based on these) weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living" (Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Napoleon).''

What Stalin and Mao and his ilk did was bury the reputation of socialism for decades. Indeed it is still in need of rescue from the margins of history.
Mao adapted from being a revolutionary towards being a counter revolutionary. These leaders cant get away with their crimes, and the capitalists will continue to throw their horrors at us.