Recruiting Center in Milwaukee Vandalized

[bcbm]

21 Arrested at Violent Protest
Michael George
MILWAUKEE - A group of Iraq War protesters vandalized the windows at the Army recruitment center on Oakland Avenue near the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee campus Monday night.

Milwaukee police took 21 people into custody, including three juveniles, ages 14, 15 and 16. Witnesses say they saw anywhere from 20 to 40 people, dressed in black, flee from the scene.

A Web site posting said that the act was a protest against the U.S. involvement in Iraq, in connection with the fourth anniversary of the war.

Torches made from chair legs, fireworks and black flags were strewn in front of the Army recruitment center. Windows were broken, but there didn't appear to be much damage to the inside of the building. One witness heard loud sounds and then saw a large group fleeing the scene.

"A group of kids were running down the road, about 20 kids or so, just screaming and wearing all black and faces covered, and they had crowbars and baseball bats," said Dan Riess.

A witness claimed he saw the group a few blocks away after the alleged attack on the recruitment center.

"There were 30 to 35 people, all dressed in black, with buckets spray painted black, just ran by, none of them said a thing, it was all very quiet," said Sal Strehlow.

The Web site, www.mke.indymedia.org, shows pictures of a group of protesters holding an anti-war sign and setting off smoke bombs in front of the Army recruitment center.

Milwaukee police say all 21 were arrested for disorderly conduct, cited and released. Ten people arrested were from West Bend, six from Milwaukee and the rest from various suburbs. The oldest participant was 24. At least two, Amy Barger and Andrew Smart, were UWM students.

There were no reports of injuries.

A witness said one of the protesters had a video camera.

The vandalized recruiter's office was open Tuesday following the attack, but blinds were drawn and the building appeared dormant. A spokesman for the office would only comment that the Army fights for the right for those protesters to voice their opinions.

“The Army fights every day to protect freedom of speech, so it’s disturbing when people use that right to attack an Army building,” a spokesperson told TODAY'S TMJ4 reporter Michael George. (Lolz)

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/6585292.html

More pics/info and some dummies:

http://milwaukee.indymedia.org/en/2007/03/207013.shtml

Some pixxx:
http://milwaukee.indymedia.org/images/2007/03/207014.png
http://milwaukee.indymedia.org/images/2007/03/207016.png
http://milwaukee.indymedia.org/images/2007/03/207018.png

[Sadena Meti]

Woot.

Big fucking woot.




In the future, throw fire bombs, not paint bombs.


Suppose I should get back in touch with the Milwaukee ARA and Anarchists, teach them proper pyrotechnics. Can't believe no one in that crowd knew how to make a Molotov Cocktail. I mean, it's not difficult. It's not as if I asked you to teach our nation's children how to read!

[bcbm]

There were houses above the recruiting center.

If anybody wants to donate to legal defense, get in touch with me via PM.

[Sadena Meti]

Originally posted by black coffee black [email protected] 20, 2007 08:52 pm
There were houses above the recruiting center.
"There are no innocents." - Terr SR1

On a lighter note, you could have used phosphorous. High flash, low yield. No structure fire.


(considers hosting a class "Recreational Pyrotechnics" at the Cream City Collective)

[Fawkes]

Though firebombs would've been nicer, it still is pretty cool that something was done to a US military building.


“The Army fights every day to protect freedom of speech, so it’s disturbing when people use that right to attack an Army building,”
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Yes, from the hordes of Iraqis that wanted to invade the US and strip us of our freedoms. The funny thing is, soldiers --- historically --- haven't done jack-shit when it comes to giving the people those rights, it has been activists like these people that have done so.

[MrDoom]

Wow. Hats off to them.

Someone should have painted that army star red and put a hammer and sickle in it! :D

[RNK]

Sad how readily the media serves as the tool to twist fact.

[bcbm]

Mo' pix.

http://mke.indymedia.org/images/2007/03/207035.jpg
http://mke.indymedia.org/images/2007/03/207036.jpg
http://mke.indymedia.org/images/2007/03/207037.jpg

[KC]

This action accomplished nothing. The anarchists here don't even believe in class war; they fight against the "monotony" of everyday life. I wouldn't even call them anarchists if you don't want to give anarchism a bad name. These are the knuckleheads that tipped a bunch of dumpsters over in the streets to disrupt the "monotony" of people's lives. Guess what happened? A lot of working people were late to work and a bunch of working people had to clean up their mess. Yeah, they're really standing on the side of working people. :rolleyes:

Also, they operate this thing where they steal books and sell them. Guess where the money goes? Their pockets! No joke; it's not even used for organizational work. They funded a trip to the Bahamas through it. They're petty-bourgeois scum. And that group right there is about all of them.

They're a small group of friends that don't understand class politics, that are petty-bourgeois themselves, and are in it for the lifestyle; they're lifestyle anarchists all the way. In short: they suck.

[RNK]

And you know this based on...?

[bcbm]

You're so full of shit I can smell you from here.


This action accomplished nothing.

Actually, it accomplished several broken windows and got a whole lot of people talking. What have all the peaceful demonstrations in recent years accomplished? What have you organized that accomplished shit?


The anarchists here don't even believe in class war; they fight against the "monotony" of everyday life.

Nonsense. There are plenty of class war anarchists in Milwaukee and many of them attended this demonstration.


These are the knuckleheads that tipped a bunch of dumpsters over in the streets to disrupt the "monotony" of people's lives. Guess what happened? A lot of working people were late to work and a bunch of working people had to clean up their mess. Yeah, they're really standing on the side of working people.

Oh god. :rolleyes: A lot of people tipping dumpsters were workers. WHOA, TOTAL MINDFUCK. But hey, god forbid anything get in the way of business as usual, right?


Also, they operate this thing where they steal books and sell them. Guess where the money goes? Their pockets! No joke; it's not even used for organizational work. They funded a trip to the Bahamas through it. They're petty-bourgeois scum. And that group right there is about all of them.

The money goes to buy more books from various distribution outfits like AK Press and Eberhardt Press, actually, and they've never made anything near a profit from it. Most of the time they don't even cut even. You just have some personal vendettas and like to stir-up shit because of them, and apparently you think getting radical literature out is a bad thing too? Fucking idiot.


They're a small group of friends that don't understand class politics, that are petty-bourgeois themselves, and are in it for the lifestyle; they're lifestyle anarchists all the way. In short: they suck.

Actually, you're wrong on all accounts. They have a good understand of class politics and have been very active in organizing their class and their community and done any number of beneficial projects in the area. Your criticisms are completely off-base and founded in your own personal problems with them, no doubt. Maybe you're pissed that even the commie girls in Milwaukee would rather hook-up with anarchists than you ineffective pieces of shit? I loathe this sort of sectarian nonsense, but if you're going to lob shit at people I know and have been on the line with, then it's fucking on you ****.

[KC]

Actually, it accomplished several broken windows and got a whole lot of people talking.

So it accomplished nothing.


Oh god. rolleyes.gif A lot of people tipping dumpsters were workers. WHOA, TOTAL MINDFUCK. But hey, god forbid anything get in the way of business as usual, right?

No, a lot of anarchists tipped dumpsters over and was overall an anti-proletarian action, as a lot of workers were late to work and workers had to clean up the mess they made.


The money goes to buy more books from various distribution outfits like AK Press and Eberhardt Press, actually, and they've never made anything near a profit from it. Most of the time they don't even cut even.

Wait, do you know these people personally?


You just have some personal vendettas and like to stir-up shit because of them

I do dislike them, but mainly because their politics are anti-worker.


and apparently you think getting radical literature out is a bad thing too? Fucking idiot.

I have a problem with people making a profit off it.


They have a good understand of class politics and have been very active in organizing their class and their community and done any number of beneficial projects in the area.

Like on May Day when they had their nice little anarchist picnic when one of the biggest demonstrations in the history of Milwaukee was taking place?


Your criticisms are completely off-base and founded in your own personal problems with them, no doubt.

My personal problems are founded on their political idiocy.


Maybe you're pissed that even the commie girls in Milwaukee would rather hook-up with anarchists than you ineffective pieces of shit?

I don't "hook up" with girls based on political ideology.


I loathe this sort of sectarian nonsense, but if you're going to lob shit at people I know and have been on the line with, then it's fucking on you ****.

I'm not "lobbing shit" at them because they're anarchists; I'm doing it because they're idiots. Tipping dumpsters, breaking windows and having a picnic aren't really going to accomplish anything, and the fact that they think it will is completely stupid. They're idiots. I'm not saying that simply as an insult; based on their political beliefs and their actions, they're idiots. Plain and simple.

[Rawthentic]

Like on May Day when they had their nice little anarchist picnic when one of the biggest demonstrations in the history of Milwaukee was taking place?

Now THAT pisses me off. What are these imbeciles doing picnicking while immigrant workers are protesting for their rights? Disgusting.


No, a lot of anarchists tipped dumpsters over and was overall an anti-proletarian action, as a lot of workers were late to work and workers had to clean up the mess they made.
Definitely sounds like a bunch of petty-bourgeois kids, I mean, I've seen them do such stupid shit for the sake of being "non-conformist" or "radical" in their own retarded way.
Alot of them, and I'm betting on the same in good ol' Mil-Town, have little understanding of class war and do shit because they're bored with their relatively better life.


Actually, it accomplished several broken windows and got a whole lot of people talking. What have all the peaceful demonstrations in recent years accomplished? What have you organized that accomplished shit?

You call breaking windows and accomplishment? How does that help the workers? In no way, it only further alienates them in a time where there is little class consciousness and political situation to justify such stupidity.


Maybe you're pissed that even the commie girls in Milwaukee would rather hook-up with anarchists than you ineffective pieces of shit?
Ha, take it easy comrade, talk about sectarianism. :P

[KC]

Definitely sounds like a bunch of petty-bourgeois kids, I mean, I've seen them do such stupid shit for the sake of being "non-conformist" or "radical" in their own retarded way.

These are Crimethinc anarchists. That's the best way to describe them. I've got nothing against the Wobblies here or any of the smart anarchists, but these guys are just dumb.

[black magick hustla]

hmm

i dont think there is anything wrong with breaking shit if you dont get caught, but most of the time its not revolutionary. it isz probably fun i guess!

however, there is nothing wrong in protesting creatively, but its pretty freaking stupid to reject pro immigrant demonstrations and instead confine yourself to a picnic with your anarcho buddies.

[Rawthentic]

it isz probably fun i guess!
Not for the workers who had to clean that shit up.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 03:36 am

it isz probably fun i guess!
Not for the workers who had to clean that shit up.
probably but they end up winning because they are get hired to clean that shit thus they get the moneyz, at the end the bourgeosie is the one that ends up spending.

i am not saying that ITS GREAT FOR THEM but in capitalism in order to get money someone needs to hire you

[RedStarOverChina]

Good for the anarchists!

Let's not let them beat us commies.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 01:36 pm

it isz probably fun i guess!
Not for the workers who had to clean that shit up.
That is really bizarre logic; making a mess is 'anti-worker'?

Is there no middle ground in the use of violence between spontaneous property destruction and a mass-insurgency?

Everything down-scaled from insurgency = 'just more work for proletarians' - well, the idea that someone will have to do some kind of work (be it cleaning, repairing whatever) in the aftermath of violence is hardly suprising given... capitalism? No? Work, wage labour is after all foundational to the day-to-day functioning of the system - a system upon which property owners and the state rely on workers for things (in their interest) to get done.

What would you have people do? No property destruction, no mess, no violence - keep everything clean and ordered so the 'proletarians' wont have to do any work? Like somehow the 'violent protestors' are contributing to the exploitation of wage slavery? These proletarians you speak of seem to just float around, waiting to clean up the mess created by 'violent protestors' and other malcontents who apparently exist beyond the boundaries of the 'proletariat' - their interests, certainly, always and forever alien to each other.

Coz you just know that the people who will have to turn the dumpsters the right side up spend their other work days down at the pub with their boss getting shitfaced.

[KC]

BD, what exactly do you think tipping over dumpsters in the middle of the street and running away accomplishes?

[The Grey Blur]

Good to hear!

How the hell did they all get caught though?

[apathy maybe]

People complain about sectarianism from Anarchists. Holy cow.


As I have said before, protesting generally does nothing. So I don't see any difference between smashing shit up and chanting and walking in circles. http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=61477

When I say nothing, I mean it doesn't contribute to raising class conscious or forwarding the cause of revolution.

So, why the fuck does it matter if they smash some shit? At least they had fun.


(Oh and Permanent Revolution. Two things. One it is "apathy maybe" not "Apathy Maybe" and two, you could at least put it in context, the individuals and groups affiliated with RAAN do shit.)

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Zampanò@March 22, 2007 03:10 pm
BD, what exactly do you think tipping over dumpsters in the middle of the street and running away accomplishes?
It depends on the situation... but from experience dumpsters can be used effectively to block streets, slown down pigs/security forces... or they can be thrown at pig lines etc. But regardless of whether the dumpsters are being used in the midst of an action, as i pointed out in my last post, tipping over a bin... and its probably a 'heat of the moment' kind of thing, adrenaline and all that... its is not something word polemicising about, or something that needs to be polemicised about; IMO the reason to do that is if you're just looking for something to be negative about... and that's pretty shitty if you ask me.

[KC]

The problem here is that it wasn't to "slow down pigs" or anything like that. It was an action in itself. They tipped a bunch of dumpsters over, tagged them with circle-A's then got arrested. I wouldn't have a problem with it if they didn't do it to make a stupid ass political statement about the "monotony" of people's lives.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

I think that if you're going to be pragmatic about this, it didn't do very much in a positive way. Maybe if they had been a little more...clever. I miss the Yippie mentality where it was all about getting media attention and using that spotlight to get people thinking in a positive way, rather then "damned anarchists breaing things."

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Permanent [email protected] 22, 2007 02:08 am
Good to hear!

How the hell did they all get caught though?
Some people hung around the street in basically the clothes they'd attended the demo in, others were picked up about a mile away while hanging around outside of a store because one of the kids looked suspicious to the pigs, and everyone was rounded up.


So it accomplished nothing.

People talking about things that haven't been talked about that much in years is "nothing?" And anyway, no one action accomplishes anything in and of itself, but they all represent part of a larger movement of resistance to the war, imperialism and militarism. Militant actions like this, if they can be sustained and spread, make the issue more pertinent to those in power as they recognize an increasing level of anger and a greater threat to their control. Keeping up activism on other fronts and supporting a diversity of actions strengthens the movement to similar effect.

I also notice you dodged my question about what exactly you've done. Maybe you're one of the pricks who won't even come out to help with anti-racist organizing, even when asked, because of sectarian bullshit? I bet so, and that is truly fucking pathetic. Those who live in glass houses...


No, a lot of anarchists tipped dumpsters over and was overall an anti-proletarian action, as a lot of workers were late to work and workers had to clean up the mess they made.

I love being late to work, and I would love being able to work outside from time to time, especially if it meant more pay or a break from my usual routine. Was it city clean-up? That probably means over time. And anyway, if things that disrupt worker's lives (even when done by other workers) are a problem, you should probably be pissed about any demonstration that goes in the street, any vandalism, any sabotage and all sorts of other things workers employ in their struggles quite regularly.


Wait, do you know these people personally?

I know them better than you do, that's for god damn fucking sure.


I do dislike them, but mainly because their politics are anti-worker.

Then you don't know them very well, as most of them are workers and are involved in the class war and doing a lot of beneficial things for workers and for their community. Your sectarian shit-throwing and lack of solidarity are the only "anti-worker" things I see here.


I have a problem with people making a profit off it.


Nobody is making any profit, most months they don't even come out even and take a loss in order to sell radical literature at discounted prices to all sorts of people, in all sorts of venues. What the fuck do you do?


Like on May Day when they had their nice little anarchist picnic when one of the biggest demonstrations in the history of Milwaukee was taking place?


Anarchists were involved in the May Day protests (I can get the pictures), what the fuck are you talking about?


I'm not "lobbing shit" at them because they're anarchists; I'm doing it because they're idiots. Tipping dumpsters, breaking windows and having a picnic aren't really going to accomplish anything, and the fact that they think it will is completely stupid.

And what exactly are you doing that is accomplishing shit, all on its own? What actions are being undertaken that are doing what you want? You're a lot of sectarian hot air, with very little (if anything) constructive to say.

----


Now THAT pisses me off. What are these imbeciles doing picnicking while immigrant workers are protesting for their rights? Disgusting.


Anarchists in Madison and Milwaukee were involved with immigrant rights organizing, don't listen to that windbag.


You call breaking windows and accomplishment? How does that help the workers? In no way, it only further alienates them in a time where there is little class consciousness and political situation to justify such stupidity.


How does taking action against the war benefit workers? Hmm, beats me.

----


These are Crimethinc anarchists. That's the best way to describe them. I've got nothing against the Wobblies here or any of the smart anarchists, but these guys are just dumb.


You only keep exposing how little you know these people or anything about their politics. A number of the people you're shit-talking as "Crimethinc anarchists" are Wobblies (oops!), and I know very few of them who I wouldn't classify as "smart," especially in relation to class struggle politics.

Not that "Crimethinc anarchist" is much of an insult these days- Rolling Thunder is one of the best anarchist publications I've seen in some time, second only to the stuff coming out of prole.info.


The problem here is that it wasn't to "slow down pigs" or anything like that. It was an action in itself. They tipped a bunch of dumpsters over, tagged them with circle-A's then got arrested.

Who got arrested? And the dumpsters were the beginning point of what was supposed to be a larger action, and were indeed meant to deter the pigs, but people dispersed too quickly when one individual called for a "retreat" for no reason, as there were no pigs around yet.


I wouldn't have a problem with it if they didn't do it to make a stupid ass political statement about the "monotony" of people's lives.

Nonsense. Here is an action tied directly to an ongoing struggle, and all you've done is shit-talk it because you think some individuals you don't like are responsible.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Zampanò@March 23, 2007 04:33 am
The problem here is that it wasn't to "slow down pigs" or anything like that. It was an action in itself. They tipped a bunch of dumpsters over, tagged them with circle-A's then got arrested. I wouldn't have a problem with it if they didn't do it to make a stupid ass political statement about the "monotony" of people's lives.
Like i said in my last post;

"Tipping over a bin...its probably a 'heat of the moment' kind of thing, adrenaline and all that... its is not something word polemicising about, or something that needs to be polemicised about; IMO the reason to do that is if you're just looking for something to be negative about... and that's pretty shitty if you ask me."

A critical discussion about people turning over dumpsters is pretty damn farcical... come on.

[The Grey Blur]

Some people hung around the street in basically the clothes they'd attended the demo in, others were picked up about a mile away while hanging around outside of a store because one of the kids looked suspicious to the pigs, and everyone was rounded up.
What the hell...

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 03:36 am

it isz probably fun i guess!
Not for the workers who had to clean that shit up.
well it would actually probably be military recruiter staff who would clean it up, class-traitor type folks.

Here's my view on this. I support actions like this. You can yell "petty-bougious" all you want, but nothing is more petty-bougious than liberalism and ultra-leftism. Direct Actions, riots, and the like may "accomplish nothing" when it is one remote case in Milwaukee, however, the point is to build so that we can do these direct actions around the nation (and world) and constantly creating a revolutionary atmosphere. This will take alot of planning and building for, but until then we should engage in these actions if they are large enough because they are far better than, and "accomplish" more than the stupid fucking UFPJ rallies and marches.

[Rawthentic]

But when there arent the social conditions or the consciousness of the workers to back up such actions, are they not alienated and more or less useless? I don't care if "communists" would have done something like this at such a time, I still would have criticized it.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 10:01 pm
But when there arent the social conditions or the consciousness of the workers to back up such actions, are they not alienated and more or less useless? I don't care if "communists" would have done something like this at such a time, I still would have criticized it.
well that's why in particular communist parties, like the party I support work on raising consciousness, but without direct actions its all talk. How do you think it would alienate people?

[Rawthentic]

How do you think it would alienate people?
These actions are necessary, but not at this time. I believe we are a time where it is necessary to raise class consciousness before such actions, so that in the future, such actions can be publicly defended and furthered.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

perhaps they can serve as agitation for the raising of class consciousness. Also, I think it serves more as road block for the bourgious. Imagine if we did this to every recruiting center. That is the goal and what we should strive for. It was actions like these that put the pressure that shut down the war in Vietnam, I don't see why it can't happen again.

The real point is that anything is better than the liberal marches anti-war most anti-war groups have been focusing on.

[RNK]

I don't disagree with the (immediate) need to back up talk with action, however, I think the behaviour of those who actually did the actions, as well as their demeanor (and the spin the media put against them) don't do us, as a movement, any favours.

We also have to take into account the context of how the actions are perceived.. if they were done by older, more mature-looking men and women, instead of masked teenagers and young adults, would the reception of the action be different?

I don't think we should stop taking such actions. I think, however, we should be more careful not to make it so easy to discredit such actions.

[Ezekiel]

Oi!

[sexyguy]

To all those people who think that the attack on an army recruiting office will not embarrass the state. Do you think Bush, ‘The Commander In Chief’ and company are happy about the youth of America hurling things at their troops while he is trying to intimidate the world and pose as a “liberator”?

Do you think attacking these youth will not encourage the state and press to step-up their witch hunting of all opposition?

Why don’t you offer your services to the capitalist press, (if you haven't already) they would appreciate your detailed knowledge of these fighters whether the tactics being used are the best or not.

Your ‘left’ adaptation to everything bourgeois especially pacifism, is a major block to developing revolutionary theory in your organisations, e.g.


“Of course, we would like for this revolution to take place as peacefully as possible. However, we are not fools or pacifists, and we realize that it will be necessary for working people to arm themselves in order to defend what they have won against the agents of a capitalist class unwilling to give up its positions of power and control — even in the face of a movement of tens of millions demanding their removal”
The Communist League: Who We Are, Where We Stand

According to this reactionary fantasy drivel, workers will only “arm themselves“... “ to defend what they have won”..., (presumably by peaceful means in your opinion) But what exactly do you think armed and murderous capitalism is going to allow the working class to win without an armed fight? You are defiantly what you say you aren't, ”fools or pacifists” or worse.
THE PEOPLE WILL ARM THEMSELVES FOR AN ATTACK TO “SMASH” THE STATE and your condemnations of ‘terrorism’ plays into the hands of real merchants of terror but can’t stop our growing understanding of the reactionary role you play.

Develop better Leninist revolutionary theory!
DEFEAT the warmongers!

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 07:22 pm
These actions are necessary, but not at this time. I believe we are a time where it is necessary to raise class consciousness before such actions, so that in the future, such actions can be publicly defended and furthered.
The war is happening right now and people are dying in the thousands right now. Such actions can be undertaken, publicly defended and furthered as we speak. Will the majority accept it? Maybe not, but we need to be taking a militant stand against imperialism and addressing the state in the language it understands best, not dicking around and coming up with every excuse possible to not engage in direct action.

----


I don't disagree with the (immediate) need to back up talk with action, however, I think the behaviour of those who actually did the actions, as well as their demeanor (and the spin the media put against them) don't do us, as a movement, any favours.

The media will never do "us, as a movement" any favor, ever, period. Instead of worrying about how they will spin us, etc, etc, we should be figuring out better ways of communicating outside of their confines. Indymedia is one step in this, and Milwaukee's got a great deal of attention following the action, but it should certainly go further. Our policy with official media should be non-cooperation. They are not and never will be on our side.


We also have to take into account the context of how the actions are perceived.. if they were done by older, more mature-looking men and women, instead of masked teenagers and young adults, would the reception of the action be different?

If someone is completely masked up, how can you tell their age? And it is a non-issue rooted in ageism anyway. If being young and disobedient is so vilified, then perhaps you should attack that issue and defend the youth and their actions, not play into traditionalist views. They'll attack older individuals just as much.


I don't think we should stop taking such actions. I think, however, we should be more careful not to make it so easy to discredit such actions.

Actions taken against those in power will always be discredited by their media organs. Support has come in from all sorts of surprising sectors, however, and that is what matters, not whether the media plays our side or not, because they never will.

[Rawthentic]

According to this reactionary fantasy drivel, workers will only “arm themselves“... “ to defend what they have won”..., (presumably by peaceful means in your opinion) But what exactly do you think armed and murderous capitalism is going to allow the working class to win without an armed fight? You are defiantly what you say you aren't, ”fools or pacifists” or worse.
THE PEOPLE WILL ARM THEMSELVES FOR AN ATTACK TO “SMASH” THE STATE and your condemnations of ‘terrorism’ plays into the hands of real merchants of terror but can’t stop our growing understanding of the reactionary role you play.

Develop better Leninist revolutionary theory!
DEFEAT the warmongers!
Unlike your extremist ass, workers aren't going to pick up gun to win everything. There are lots of things that can be won without armed struggle, too many to name. The workers and oppressed will only pick up guns when they see a dire necessity to do so, as they will want peace as much as possible. You are utopian to think that they will be blood-thirsty, at least not in the majority.

The "people" did not arm themselves to smash the state, a few anarckiddies got together to smash windows at a recruiting center.

And you misunderstood the quote. The workers will arm themselves to protect the workplaces and land that they have won from the capitalists. It doesnt take armed action to do this, but it will to defend it.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 06:03 am

According to this reactionary fantasy drivel, workers will only “arm themselves“... “ to defend what they have won”..., (presumably by peaceful means in your opinion) But what exactly do you think armed and murderous capitalism is going to allow the working class to win without an armed fight? You are defiantly what you say you aren't, ”fools or pacifists” or worse.
THE PEOPLE WILL ARM THEMSELVES FOR AN ATTACK TO “SMASH” THE STATE and your condemnations of ‘terrorism’ plays into the hands of real merchants of terror but can’t stop our growing understanding of the reactionary role you play.

Develop better Leninist revolutionary theory!
DEFEAT the warmongers!
Unlike your extremist ass, workers aren't going to pick up gun to win everything. There are lots of things that can be won without armed struggle, too many to name. The workers and oppressed will only pick up guns when they see a dire necessity to do so, as they will want peace as much as possible. You are utopian to think that they will be blood-thirsty, at least not in the majority.

The "people" did not arm themselves to smash the state, a few anarckiddies got together to smash windows at a recruiting center.

And you misunderstood the quote. The workers will arm themselves to protect the workplaces and land that they have won from the capitalists. It doesnt take armed action to do this, but it will to defend it.
It's not just a few "anarckiddies" because it has happened all over the country, by different groups. I think there is a dire necessity, don't you?

[sexyguy]

One thing this action by the youth of Milwaukee has achieved is smoking out the cringing scabs of the reformist ’left’ who join the establishment press in slandering and ’condemning’ the protesters, but say nothing (in relation to this action ) about the US and British military trashing whole countries, torturing and murdering their people.

You claim to be Marxists? Just read what Marx said about the outrages committed by the revolted Sepoys in India. He clearly didn't approve, but unlike you shower of back- stabbers, he knew which side in the anti-imperialist struggle he should attack. Read and learn. (Karl Marx in the New-York Tribune 1857 The Indian Revolt September 16, 1857)

[Rawthentic]

Looks like I'm a reformist now because I don't support these kids destroying some windows.

I think you're the one that has to read up on Marx, uglyguy, and know that these actions are futile because they have no base in the working class.

[YSR]

If these actions are being done by workers, doesn't that mean that the working class supports them?

This is what happens when you essentialize and reify images of the working class. The "working class" is just a bunch of people, a bunch of working people. And if members of that class are taking it to the war apparatus, I say "right on!"

[Rawthentic]

If these actions are being done by workers, doesn't that mean that the working class supports them?
But where they? Can you prove that they were? What I saw in the pics and heard as well (because I'm from Milwaukee), is that they were mostly, in the majority, anarchist youth. Not to say that this does not make them working-class, but from what I see today, a lot of anarchist youth are petty-bourgeois who must be so bored so as to do such seemingly stupid shit like tipping dumpsters over.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 09:17 pm

If these actions are being done by workers, doesn't that mean that the working class supports them?
But where they? Can you prove that they were? What I saw in the pics and heard as well (because I'm from Milwaukee), is that they were mostly, in the majority, anarchist youth. Not to say that this does not make them working-class, but from what I see today, a lot of anarchist youth are petty-bourgeois who must be so bored so as to do such seemingly stupid shit like tipping dumpsters over.
How can anarchist youth be petty-bourgeoisie? Do these anarchist youth own their own businesses? Do they purchase others' labor power?

[Political_Chucky]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 06:17 pm

If these actions are being done by workers, doesn't that mean that the working class supports them?
But where they? Can you prove that they were? What I saw in the pics and heard as well (because I'm from Milwaukee), is that they were mostly, in the majority, anarchist youth. Not to say that this does not make them working-class, but from what I see today, a lot of anarchist youth are petty-bourgeois who must be so bored so as to do such seemingly stupid shit like tipping dumpsters over.
Whether or not they are youth is not of concern. Their actions speak louder then words. Even if they were "bored youth" as you say, that wouldn't matter as it is getting a message across to recruiters that we do not like the situation in Iraq and we especially don't want them in our neighborhoods. And so fuck it, lets say the kids were some how petit(and yes it is petit) bourgeois, that doesn't necessarily exempt them from the cause. You may see it as simply tipping a dumpster over. What would you prefer? A nice recruiting station with a line of working class people eager to sign their life away? If you see it as kids destroying windows, then I see you as a common liberal.

By the way, you criticize these "youth" for doing something about it, may I ask how old you are and what have you done? Seems to me you would like more people to vote rather then take some action <_<

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

How can anarchist youth be petty-bourgeoisie? Do these anarchist youth own their own businesses? Do they purchase others&#39; labor power?

If their parents are petty-bourgeoisie, and they live with their parents, they are petty-bourgeoisie. What do you think, that people under a certain age have no class?

[YSR]

But where they? Can you prove that they were?

Dude, I have no idea. I just know what it&#39;s like 200 miles away here in St. Paul. I&#39;m making connections about the movement.

In any case, you&#39;re a worker, right? So why don&#39;t you go break some windows&#33; Students, lumpen, workers, everybody&#39;s getting on board. Direct action is the only way to end this war, so let&#39;s get cookin&#39;.

[bcbm]

Let me help clarify, since I know the people involved and witnessed the demonstration, and you&#39;re just all eager little ****s to talk shit on people who have different politics than you as coming from some other class background. Most of the people at this action were working class, and everyone I know who was arrested, myself included, is working-class. No petit-bourgeois among us, I&#39;m afraid, sorry to let you down. So try and find a better criticism than your tired Marxist slurs you pathetic fucks. You want to stop the war machine? Than stop shit-talking people on the front lines and start showing some solidarity.


But where they? Can you prove that they were? What I saw in the pics and heard as well (because I&#39;m from Milwaukee), is that they were mostly, in the majority, anarchist youth. Not to say that this does not make them working-class, but from what I see today, a lot of anarchist youth are petty-bourgeois who must be so bored so as to do such seemingly stupid shit like tipping dumpsters over.

You don&#39;t even know what petit-bourgeois means if you think that. Not that the "communists" are free from such a criticism anyway... most "Marxists" I&#39;ve seen come from similarly class backgrounds as any anarchists, if not better ones, and are often much better on track to become middle managers through their university education. Save the bullshit for somewhere else.

[sexyguy]

Looks like I&#39;m a reformist now because I don&#39;t support these kids destroying some windows.

I think you&#39;re the one that has to read up on Marx, uglyguy, and know that these actions are futile because they have no base in the working class.

Did you read Marx in the New-York Tribune on the Indian Revolt September 16, 1857. If so what conclusion did you come to? If not why not?

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 26, 2007 04:06 am

How can anarchist youth be petty-bourgeoisie? Do these anarchist youth own their own businesses? Do they purchase others&#39; labor power?

If their parents are petty-bourgeoisie, and they live with their parents, they are petty-bourgeoisie. What do you think, that people under a certain age have no class?
Not sure about this. If the petty bourgiousie youth engages in proletarian activity then what? Also youth have little control over their class orgin. I don&#39;t think it really matters much any way. Direct actions are good.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by Young Stupid [email protected] 26, 2007 04:49 am

But where they? Can you prove that they were?

In any case, you&#39;re a worker, right? So why don&#39;t you go break some windows&#33; Students, lumpen, workers, everybody&#39;s getting on board. Direct action is the only way to end this war, so let&#39;s get cookin&#39;.
No because then that would completly go against everything he&#39;s been making excuses about
:lol:

[Rawthentic]

No because then that would completly go against everything he&#39;s been making excuses about
What excuses? What about your reactionary excuses so intent on allowing petty-bourgeois elements into proletarian party? Smells like RCP bullshit.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2007 04:17 pm

No because then that would completly go against everything he&#39;s been making excuses about
What excuses? What about your reactionary excuses so intent on allowing petty-bourgeois elements into proletarian party? Smells like RCP bullshit.
What petit-bourgeois elements? You&#39;re talking shit on people you don&#39;t know anything about. You just don&#39;t like their politics and actions and so you resort to a stereotypical Marxist slur that is ultimately devoid of meaning because of idiots like you.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 25, 2007 11:06 pm

How can anarchist youth be petty-bourgeoisie? Do these anarchist youth own their own businesses? Do they purchase others&#39; labor power?

If their parents are petty-bourgeoisie, and they live with their parents, they are petty-bourgeoisie.
What&#39;s your reasoning?

What if this person works, yet still lives with their petty-bourgeois parents, are they still petty-bourgeois?

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2007 10:17 pm

No because then that would completly go against everything he&#39;s been making excuses about
What excuses? What about your reactionary excuses so intent on allowing petty-bourgeois elements into proletarian party? Smells like RCP bullshit.
the excuses for being an ultra-leftist who cares nothing about practice, only theory. And way to shift the subject, Those who are in the RCP don&#39;t tell and those tell who is in the RCP don&#39;t know. That&#39;s how the RCP membership works. You must have a problem with that reading thing because what I am advocating is a uniting all who can be united under the proletariat banner for communism. That is not close to the unprincipled bs rhetoric you&#39;re offering. You are advocating ultra-leftism where you attempt to draw the workers to your banner of "we&#39;re a worker&#39;s party" and then stop them from any struggle or direct actions. Sort of pacifying the movement. The bourgeoisie class would be very proud.

[Sadena Meti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2007 05:17 pm

No because then that would completly go against everything he&#39;s been making excuses about
What excuses? What about your reactionary excuses so intent on allowing petty-bourgeois elements into proletarian party? Smells like RCP bullshit.
Three points.

1. Why play the asshole?
2. I&#39;m not involved with this group, but I&#39;ve met some of them, and to call them petty-bourgeois is, frankly, hilarious.
3. Does the following quote ring a bell?



Just as, therefore, at an earlier period, a section of the nobility went over to the bourgeoisie, so now a portion of the bourgeoisie goes over to the proletariat, and in particular, a portion of the bourgeois ideologists, who have raised themselves to the level of comprehending theoretically the historical movement as a whole.

[Rawthentic]

What petit-bourgeois elements?
Bob Avakian you dumbfuck.


the excuses for being an ultra-leftist who cares nothing about practice, only theory
That&#39;s quite a claim. Do you personally know me?


You are advocating ultra-leftism where you attempt to draw the workers to your banner of "we&#39;re a worker&#39;s party" and then stop them from any struggle or direct actions. Sort of pacifying the movement. The bourgeoisie class would be very proud.
Explain to me how the fuck the League is "ultra-leftist." You&#39;re so goddam ridiculous, that&#39;s your slur for people that prove you wrong, like CdL, and you called the FPM "ultra-leftist" as well. What a dumbass. You don&#39;t know anything about the League, other than we have a strict class-based membership because we hold a Marxist class-based analysis. We don&#39;t hold the workers from action; it is us who advocate their self-emancipation and action, free from any other class restraints. I know the RCP and met several members during last year&#39;s May Day protests. It is a fundamental fact that a revolutionary worker&#39;s party must be made of the advanced section of the working-class, and if there are intelligentsia or other "strata" that want to join, they must prove their commitment and be tolerated at best until they can be trusted. A section of the petty-bourgeoisie will drop to the proletariat, but that is most likely due to improving their position, not because they actually care about the working-class cause.

Do you want quotes from Marx to prove this as well? And remember LeftyHenry, CdL already trumped your bullshit about Marx not being a proletarian, because as he made the theory of class struggle and the dictatorship of the proletariat, he became "proletarianized." You want a link to prove that too?

And the RCP&#39;s "fight for the middle" simply shows its class character, as it tries to attract people from the "middle strata", or petty-bourgeois. Dumb &#39;ol Bobby acts as if he had the proletariat under his wing already.

No, rev-stoic, that quote does not ring a bell.

[Sadena Meti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2007 09:46 pm
No, rev-stoic, that quote does not ring a bell.
It&#39;s from the Communist Manifesto. Ever heard of it? :marx: :engles:

[RNK]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2007 10:17 pm

No because then that would completly go against everything he&#39;s been making excuses about
What excuses? What about your reactionary excuses so intent on allowing petty-bourgeois elements into proletarian party? Smells like RCP bullshit.
And what, exactly, are you hoping to accomplish by such a worthless excuse for an under-handed insult? You just can&#39;t keep the sectarianism in the bag, can you? There&#39;s no reason to start flinging insults about organizations people are connected to simply because you&#39;re losing a fucking arguement. Grow the fuck up.

[bcbm]

You&#39;re so goddam ridiculous, that&#39;s your slur for people that prove you wrong, like CdL, and you called the FPM "ultra-leftist" as well. What a dumbass.

Says the guy who throws "petty-bourgeois" at everyone he disagrees with, like it is going out of style?

[bcbm]

Tuesday March 27th at about 9 am a banner was dropped reading “650,000 dead and they cry about windows.”

Recently much has been said in various channels about the demonstration on March 19th that ended with the vandalism of an Army Recruiting Center. Many have been quick to condemn these actions and the 21 youths (most of whom were arrested for merely fitting a profile and being on the east side) arrested that evening dismissing their actions as poorly thought-out and criminal. The debate has remained framed around this instance of protest violence, ignoring the larger context of the action.

In short: this country has been at war for nearly six years and has brought destruction and near civil war to two countries, with hundreds of thousands dead, many more wounded physically or emotionally, and millions of dollars of infrastructure, homes, etc destroyed. That this state of war can become so normalized that it is met with little more than a whimper of discontent, while a few broken windows bring everyone to arms, is the height of absurdity and speaks to the real disconnect United States citizens have from the rest of the world.

Throughout the globe, from the epicenter of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to American imperial allies in Europe and South America, resistance to this war has taken many varied forms, including destruction of property. Indeed, those who wage wars of empire understand little better than violence and as they use it with scant concern, we should not be so hesitant to throw it back in their faces when we can. The largest protest movement in decades, perhaps ever, could not stop the war in Iraq and even smaller, completely ignored peaceful events have no chance of impacting those in power now. If we want to get their attention and truly resist empire, we must not exempt any of the tools at our disposal. Even if we cannot agree on tactics entirely, we must recognize our allies where we see them and support our comrades in struggle when they find themselves threatened by the state. The banner drop today is a small show of solidarity with those arrested and an attempt to reframe the context of this debate around the extreme damage this war has wrought, instead of the mild damage enacted by some few who are sick of being ignored; sick of not striking back against the cloud of death that surrounds us in the heart of the empire.

[img]http://mke.indymedia.org/images/2007/03/207094.jpg' alt='' width='640' height='480' class='attach' /> (http://mke.indymedia.org/images/2007/03/207094.jpg)

[rouchambeau]

Awesome banner drop. I like how relevant it is to the situation.

[Rawthentic]

Says the guy who throws "petty-bourgeois" at everyone he disagrees with, like it is going out of style?
You&#39;re right, I&#39;ll stop swinging that around, since I can&#39;t be sure about it.

But about being an "ultra-leftist", that&#39;s ridiculous, and I have several links to prove what I said in my previous post. Peace

And was that banner in Milwaukee too?

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 07:28 am

Says the guy who throws "petty-bourgeois" at everyone he disagrees with, like it is going out of style?
You&#39;re right, I&#39;ll stop swinging that around, since I can&#39;t be sure about it.

But about being an "ultra-leftist", that&#39;s ridiculous, and I have several links to prove what I said in my previous post.
And I&#39;ve never accused you of ultra-leftism... and anyway, I like ultra-leftism, though probably not in the sense it is being thrown around here.



And was that banner in Milwaukee too?

Yeah. The article is being sent to a number of news outlets, as I understand it.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Explain to me how the fuck the League is "ultra-leftist." You&#39;re so goddam ridiculous, that&#39;s your slur for people that prove you wrong, like CdL, and you called the FPM "ultra-leftist" as well. What a dumbass.

I called the FPM ultra-leftist because that was my impression of the NYC branch. In the about 6 months I was around their mailing list, maybe 3 times did they call people together to organize and mobilize. I&#39;ll say that it was a rash statement, and may be false, and that I know very little about the way the FPM functioned but that was just an impression.

As for you being ultra-leftist,

your arguement against this action is the definition. We need to wholeheartedly support these actions. To ask what this does for the workers and cry for the military recruiters who need to clean up the trashed recruitment center couldn&#39;t be more ultra-left.


Bob Avakian you dumbfuck.

laughable. I refuted this in the other thread. Bob Avakian has been organizing workers, students, and revolutionaries since before you were in the womb (I&#39;ve heard from your earlier posts that your not more than 2 decades old). As well as spreading and writing anti-capitalist, and communist literature and organizing with the Black Panthers and in the Free Speach Movement.


Do you want quotes from Marx to prove this as well? And remember LeftyHenry, CdL already trumped your bullshit about Marx not being a proletarian, because as he made the theory of class struggle and the dictatorship of the proletariat, he became "proletarianized." You want a link to prove that too?

Even in the quotes that CdL provided, Marx said that petty bourgiousie with proletarian outlooks should be admitted. Yes, he didn&#39;t emphasize it, nor did he mention that marx was refering to the sections of the bourgiousie which felt self superior to workers, but hey, w/e.

As for Marx, CdL just proved that Marx was at a point poor, but he was living off of Engels while he wrote many of his classics. I frankly don&#39;t give a shit about his class but he wasn&#39;t born to a proletariat family. Neither was Engels much. Marmot brought this up in the other thread.

But frankly you&#39;re right. Who gives a shit because they made massive contributions to the communist ideology.

Point is that obviously, if Marx did believe that only workers should be allowed into the movement, and lets say he was fully proletarian by nature, he wouldn&#39;t associate with Engels who was a mill owner. That is why he clearly wrote that the role of the proletarian is to be the thouroughly revolutionary class, the leaders of the revolution and the majority, but not necessarily the only class and that at times, and for different reasons, other classes will join in the struggle.


And the RCP&#39;s "fight for the middle" simply shows its class character, as it tries to attract people from the "middle strata", or petty-bourgeois. Dumb &#39;ol Bobby acts as if he had the proletariat under his wing already.

Actually, no it doesn&#39;t. The only places where agitation has been carried out in NYC for example is in Harlem, and mostly minority neighborhoods in Brooklyn, Queens, and the Bronx. As well as during rallies and events and at schools or highly activist saturated areas. That is NOT the fight for the middle. If that was true the RCP would be active in The Upper East Side, Riverdale, and Morningside heights. All the places I mentioned that the RCP is active in are extremely proletarian neighborhoods.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Black Coffee,


21 youths (most of whom were arrested for merely fitting a profile and being on the east side) arrested that evening dismissing their actions as poorly thought-out and criminal.

has there been bail set for the comrades who were arrested?

Do you know any of them personally?

Perhaps we could start a thread about collecting funds to pay for bail?

BTW very nice banner reminds me of one I made for a protest against a racist anti-immigrant action here in NYC (the way it looks like it was made)

[Rawthentic]

your arguement against this action is the definition. We need to wholeheartedly support these actions. To ask what this does for the workers and cry for the military recruiters who need to clean up the trashed recruitment center couldn&#39;t be more ultra-left.
Nope. I am critical of this action, which does not make me ultra-leftist. I believe that such actions, while reflecting the hatred of war, do not represent the working-class in its battle against capitalism.

That&#39;s not ultra-leftist.


laughable. I refuted this in the other thread. Bob Avakian has been organizing workers, students, and revolutionaries since before you were in the womb (I&#39;ve heard from your earlier posts that your not more than 2 decades old). As well as spreading and writing anti-capitalist, and communist literature and organizing with the Black Panthers and in the Free Speach Movement.

Hitler organized workers and students to promote his sick ideas, but that didn&#39;t make him proletarian. Bobby may organize all of the oppressed peoples of the world, but he is not proletarian himself. I&#39;m not trying to compare Bobby with Hitler at all, but just to show that this does not make one proletarian. Selling your labor power does. And I don&#39;t care if he had small jobs in college, that was then, not now.


Marx said that petty bourgiousie with proletarian outlooks should be admitted.
Historical materialism is the fundamental aspect of Marxism. It states that by being of certain class, your position in production dictates the outlook one has. For example, if I worked in a restaurant, my class consciousness rests on seeing myself opposed to the boss and able to run the restaurant in my own interests along with my fellow workers. Petty-bourgeois or bourgeois can&#39;t hold this outlook, unless they proletarianize themselves.


That is why he clearly wrote that the role of the proletarian is to be the thouroughly revolutionary class, the leaders of the revolution and the majority, but not necessarily the only class and that at times, and for different reasons, other classes will join in the struggle.
Hmm, you do get it. This is my basic argument, along with the censure and watch over non-proletarian elements in a worker&#39;s party. I believe that this is one of the reasons that we in the League are such a distinct and growing force in the American left and in the world, and that is because we are workers, and we organize and talk to workers as one of them. We fulfill Marx&#39;s idea of the vanguard, which is the advanced section of the proletariat, and all of our analysis rest on the class question, and how everything rests on our class.


Actually, no it doesn&#39;t.
Then tell Bobby to stop saying that the RCP is "fighting for the middle." Its in the damn Draft Programme that an RCP member gave me during May Day last year.

[sexyguy]

“I believe that this is one of the reasons that we in the League are such a distinct and growing force in the American left and in the world, and that is because we are workers, and we organize and talk to workers as one of them.”
And what do you “talk to workers as one of them” about? It can either be reform with more democracy under capitalism or revolution, the dictatorship of the proletariat which is done by revolutionaries whether they are working-class, middle class or full blown bourgeois like Engels.

The decisive factor in destroying capitalism is correct revolutionary theory not patronising chauvinist “talk to workers as one of them.” Do black workers only talk to other black workers in your outfit “as one of them”, ditto whites, women, youth, dockers, taxi drivers, building workers etc, etc.? Who talks to the bank clerks, doctors, teachers, lawyers, journalists, social workers and shop keepers etc, etc. The whole notion is at best silly, at worst just more diversionary blather from opportunists finding a safe perch from which to parrot anti-Leninism.

You refuse to "talk to workers" about turning this imperialist war of aggression into a class war to DEFEAT the warmongers, but join in the attack on youth who trashed an army recruiting office. Perhaps you empathise with the “workers in uniform” in that office and in Baghdad.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31, 2007 04:09 am



Nope. I am critical of this action, which does not make me ultra-leftist. I believe that such actions, while reflecting the hatred of war, do not represent the working-class in its battle against capitalism.

That&#39;s not ultra-leftist.

whatever, you&#39;re making a stupid assumption that the anarchists are not working class which you don&#39;t know. Anyhow, they do represent the struggle against capitalism. Against the system of imperialism. It&#39;s one small action which if built upon can be the struggle against capitalism.


Hitler organized workers and students to promote his sick ideas, but that didn&#39;t make him proletarian

you&#39;re such a fucking idiot. How can you even compare the two? Bob Avakian is organizing them through the marxist ideology.


Bobby may organize all of the oppressed peoples of the world, but he is not proletarian himself.

yes he is. Even if he didn&#39;t sell his labor as a writer, he has the proletarian outlook which you use to justify Engel&#39;s position for example.


Historical materialism is the fundamental aspect of Marxism. It states that by being of certain class, your position in production dictates the outlook one has.

no that would be materialism. Historical materialism is dialectical materialism applied to history. I agree that the proletarian outlook is accomplished by being proletariat but not only by that. Otherwise Marx and Engels and Kroptkin would not have had this outlook. It is also accomplished by the opposition to capitalism and the idea that communism is only brought forward by the proletariat leadership. it is just an outlook which is accomplished through material things like class as well as knowledge. It advocates materialism but Marx and Engels are examples of how it is not necessarily gained by class materialism but other materialism if that makes sense.


Then tell Bobby to stop saying that the RCP is "fighting for the middle." Its in the damn Draft Programme that an RCP member gave me during May Day last year.

your taking that way out of context. The idea is that once the proletariat has been united under the communist ideology and is fighting the bourgiousie, it&#39;ll attempt to win over other non-proletarian elemenets that can be of strategic importance. Lenin talked about this and pointed for example in Russia to winning over anti-aristocratic bourgiousie, who would be important to split the bourgiousie, and confuse it, and by that, weaken it. So yeah its completely different then what your making it sound

[Rawthentic]

you&#39;re such a fucking idiot. How can you even compare the two? Bob Avakian is organizing them through the marxist ideology.
Laughably retarded, you. Did you read where I said that I wasn&#39;t trying to compare them you jackass?

And no, just because he organizes workers and oppressed, he does not sell his labor power. Period.


whatever, you&#39;re making a stupid assumption that the anarchists are not working class which you don&#39;t know.
Haha, how stupid you are. Where did I say that they weren&#39;t working-class? I admit that there has to be certain petty-bourgeois elements, but I never said there weren&#39;t any working-class anarchists. Even if communists had done this, I would have treated it the same.


The idea is that once the proletariat has been united under the communist ideology and is fighting the bourgiousie, it&#39;ll attempt to win over other non-proletarian elemenets that can be of strategic importance
Here&#39;s the thing: Bobby does not have the majority of workers under his wing to justify this.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Laughably retarded, you. Did you read where I said that I wasn&#39;t trying to compare them you jackass?

Yes I did and I don&#39;t care because you were. Look up comparison in a dictionary. Anyhow, Hitler didn&#39;t organize workers. His organization may have fucked some workers over but not organized them. To say them shows you have no understanding of what that really means in this disscussion.


And no, just because he organizes workers and oppressed, he does not sell his labor power. Period.

he does. He is a writer he sells his labor to publishing companies. This is fucking stupid. You have completely derailed the disscussion.


Where did I say that they weren&#39;t working-class?

you are so contradicting yourself its not even funny. I am assuming that when you said "these actions don&#39;t represent the interests of the working class" you are saying that because you think the people involved are not proletariat. Otherwise your arguement is bankrupt ultra-leftist opinion.



Here&#39;s the thing: Bobby does not have the majority of workers under his wing to justify this.

um yeah and? this refers to when the revolution happens.

[Leo]

I feel I won&#39;t get a proper answer if I ask those who babble about "ultra-leftism" to define it.

[Rawthentic]

Leo, seeing what this LeftyHenry says, I must agree with you. This "communist" says that I&#39;m ultra-leftist simply because I criticized the attack on the military thing.


he does. He is a writer he sells his labor to publishing companies. This is fucking stupid. You have completely derailed the disscussion.
Oh really huh? This shows that you don&#39;t know what being working-class is. He is not employed by the publishing company, he does it because he wants to, not to survive and make a living. Your reactionary and anti-Marxist side popped out again.


I am assuming that when you said "these actions don&#39;t represent the interests of the working class" you are saying that because you think the people involved are not proletariat.
Reread what I said dumbass. I said that I don&#39;t doubt that some of these anarchists were working-class, but it either way has no organizational support.

[Rawthentic]

You refuse to "talk to workers" about turning this imperialist war of aggression into a class war to DEFEAT the warmongers, but join in the attack on youth who trashed an army recruiting office.
I assume you know me personally on this? You must I guess because you know what I do and don&#39;t do :D . I suggest you read the CL&#39;s stance on war, which is exactly what you described: ..."about turning this war of aggression into a class war.."

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 09:13 pm
has there been bail set for the comrades who were arrested?
All of the arrested were charged, booked and released about 7 am the next morning after a shitty night in jail. Right now the main issue is raising funds to pay the tickets and fight possible forthcoming felony charges.



Do you know any of them personally?

One could say that.


Perhaps we could start a thread about collecting funds to pay for bail?

Sure. Right now the abc is getting a bank account set-up and then we can set-up a paypal.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Oh really huh? This shows that you don&#39;t know what being working-class is. He is not employed by the publishing company

as much as writer can be. He regularly writes and is expected by the publishing companies to write for them to publish regularly. Besides being proletariat means you own no means of production and sell your labor to survive.


he does it because he wants to, not to survive and make a living. Your reactionary and anti-Marxist side popped out again.

lol how the fuck do you know that? How else would he make a living? In fact you don&#39;t not know he&#39;s working right now. No one even knows where Bob Avakian is right now and very few know the location of other party members for safety reasons and because it is part of a vanguard&#39;s organizational principles as laid forward by Lenin: A party must be secretive and centralized otherwise, it takes on round up to destroy the party


Reread what I said dumbass. I said that I don&#39;t doubt that some of these anarchists were working-class, but it either way has no organizational support.

you didn&#39;t say that. Anyhow who cares if it "had no organizational support"? You&#39;re a waste of time I&#39;m done here. You have proposed no alternative to shutting down the war machine other then staying home on your computer and calling people who are active "reactionary" and "anti-worker." What a waste.


Originally posted by Black Coffee Black Metal
Sure. Right now the abc is getting a bank account set-up and then we can set-up a paypal.

good idea. That&#39;s a better idea than just mailing money to you, though i&#39;m not sure how that would work exactly

[Sadena Meti]

Originally posted by LeftyHenry+March 31, 2007 05:47 pm--> (LeftyHenry @ March 31, 2007 05:47 pm)
Black Coffee Black Metal
Sure. Right now the abc is getting a bank account set-up and then we can set-up a paypal.

good idea. That&#39;s a better idea than just mailing money to you, though i&#39;m not sure how that would work exactly [/b]
Doesn&#39;t the C.C.C. have a bank account? If not, it should get one, and route the money that way. That&#39;s where the collection box is anyway.

[Rawthentic]

You have proposed no alternative to shutting down the war machine other then staying home on your computer and calling people who are active "reactionary" and "anti-worker." What a waste.
Look, I have made my alternative clear by what I have said: talk to working-class people and help them understand what the war really means to them, then go and take such action, which will then have proletarian support and potential for something bigger.

And don&#39;t make it seem like I&#39;m some coffee-shop revolutionary, because I&#39;m not. I talk to people at school, talk to workers and especially my mother who suffers alot, and go around my Latino neighborhood, because I am latino, and talk to immigrant farm workers.

And I&#39;m also done giving a fuck about Avakian, its no small reason as to why people marginalize the RCP.

[Lenin II]

Next time use molotov cocktails and machine guns. Give them a taste of their own medicine.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31, 2007 11:52 pm
And I&#39;m also done giving a fuck about Avakian, its no small reason as to why people marginalize the RCP.

Look, I have made my alternative clear by what I have said: talk to working-class people and help them understand what the war really means to them, then go and take such action, which will then have proletarian support and potential for something bigger.


we&#39;re doing that. The RCP for example engages in mass line constantly and distributes marxist literature and revolution newspapers. Other parties do the same. Anarchists groups also do similiar too like with the Mutiny paper.

You didn&#39;t make your alternative clear. You just made the workers seem like incapable babies. The time to act is now, you can&#39;t just be all theory, you have to have actions to back it up.


And don&#39;t make it seem like I&#39;m some coffee-shop revolutionary, because I&#39;m not

well your acting exactly like one


And I&#39;m also done giving a fuck about Avakian, its no small reason as to why people marginalize the RCP.

lol that&#39;s funny considering its the one of if not the largest communist parties in America. The CL is virtually unknown off of this forum.

[Rawthentic]

You just made the workers seem like incapable babies. The time to act is now, you can&#39;t just be all theory, you have to have actions to back it up.
Wrong. I didn&#39;t make them seem like babies, you&#39;re putting words in my mouth now.


well your acting exactly like one
Disagreeing with you does not make a coffee-shop revolutionary.


lol that&#39;s funny considering its the one of if not the largest communist parties in America. The CL is virtually unknown off of this forum.
This is hilarious: The CL is 3 years old and has built itself as a distinguished workers party in the US and the world, because we are workers organizing ourselves, not petty-bourgeois intellectuals trying to deceive the workers into buying our ideas. Our publications are read in every country on earth and we are working with the Iraqi Freedom Congress. The RCP was formed 32 years ago. And the rest speaks for itself.

[RNK]

This has degraded into a "my penis is bigger than yours" contest.

Both of you are in marginal organizations that, quite frankly, could use a lot of improvement. Keep this shit to yourselves, so we can talk about this Milwaukee protest shit.

[Rawthentic]

Theres little left to say on that protest, so let this debate go on. What do you know about the CL , RNK? I&#39;d love to know why we are marginal.

[RNK]

And I&#39;d love to know why "you" are not marginal.

[Rawthentic]

I asked you first comrade. You said the CL was marginal, so prove it.

[which doctor]

The CL is 3 years old and has built itself as a distinguished workers party in the US and the world,
Of course besides the fact that very very few workers at all have even heard of the Communist League.


Our publications are read in every country on earth
Obvious bullshit. Do you have much of a following in Norfolk Island, or perhaps much of a fan club amongst the Swiss Guard?

[Rawthentic]

I may have exaggerated: every continent on earth, except Antarctica of course.



Of course besides the fact that very very few workers at all have even heard of the Communist League.
But we are definitely growing and being heard by workers. What you said here doesnt change that.

[Boriznov]

This is the perfect example of why we keep failing. The left must organize together and not separate eachother. Stop arguing over stupid shit like this and learn how to work together.

I self am a Council Communist but i wouldn&#39;t see why i couldn&#39;t work together with a Leninist, the more we co-operate the more the future will seem to be beautiful for the workers of the world. The arguments can be done after the revolution.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by rev&#045;[email protected] 31, 2007 05:01 pm
Doesn&#39;t the C.C.C. have a bank account? If not, it should get one, and route the money that way. That&#39;s where the collection box is anyway.
The CCC doesn&#39;t really want to take a public stance on what happened and as such the ABC is trying to maintain a bit of separation from them for fund-collecting.

[ComradeR]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 11:38 am
This is the perfect example of why we keep failing. The left must organize together and not separate eachother. Stop arguing over stupid shit like this and learn how to work together.

I self am a Council Communist but i wouldn&#39;t see why i couldn&#39;t work together with a Leninist, the more we co-operate the more the future will seem to be beautiful for the workers of the world. The arguments can be done after the revolution.
Hear Hear comrade.
This bullshit fighting amongst each other and arguing over details is fucking ridiculous, especially since we all have the same goal.

[RNK]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 03:33 am
I asked you first comrade. You said the CL was marginal, so prove it.
Because I have never heard of it doing anything whatsoever, except for your own proclamations about its god-like power and universal influence.

[Rawthentic]

Dont exaggerate, I never said it was god-like. We are doing very good things, mainly working with the Iraqi Freedom Congress and establishing contacts abroad, those are our main projects.

If you want to know more about the IFC or what the CL does, hit me up.

[PRC-UTE]

This is great to see. Everyone should rally behind the defence of these brave comrades.

EDIT: also wanted to say, excellent banner drop exposing the hypocricy at the heart of capitalism&#33;

[Lenin II]

I hope every single soldier in the US Army is the recruiting center next time, and next time they use molotovs.