Nepalese Maoists persecute homosexuals

[naxalrevolution]

Gay Nepalese hit by Maoist clean up drive

After being persecuted by King Gyanendra's regime and the new multi-party government, Nepal's homosexual community is now at the receiving end of a society clean up drive launched by Maoist rebels.

The communists, who now freely roam in the capital after they signed a peace accord with the new government of Prime Minister Girija Prasad Koirala and had the terrorist tag lifted, have now turned their attention to cleaning "social pollutants", ranging from pornographic films to homosexuality.

Kathmandu's gays, who had joined hands with the Maoists and political parties to oppose King Gyanendra's direct rule, felt the new communist crackdown last month after Maoist cadres went around ordering house owners not to let out rooms to homosexuals and lesbians.

Alarmed at the new diktat, members of the community met the former Maoist commander of Kathmandu valley, known as Sagar, to persuade him to call off the drive.

"We don't want to evict anyone," Sagar told the agency.

"So we have asked house owners to allow tenants. However, we are against any aberrant activity that could have a negative and vitiating effect on society."

The insurgents, who have been campaigning against polygamy, polyandry, infidelity and drunkenness, have a zero tolerance policy towards homosexuality.

Blue Diamond Society, Nepal's only NGO fighting for gay rights, last month met a senior Maoist leader, Dev Gurung, to try and explain the rights of gays, lesbians and transgenders to him.

The rebel leader reportedly told the organisation that homosexuality was a byproduct of capitalism.

"Under Soviet rule and when China was still very much a communist state, there were no homosexuals in the Soviet Union or China," Gurung reportedly said.

"Now they are moving towards capitalism, homosexuals may have arisen there as well.

So homosexuality is a product of capitalism. Under socialism this kind of problem doesn't exist."

When Blue Diamond Society met other Maoist leaders to point out that homosexuals were under attack from Maoist cadres, the reaction was "disheartening", it says.

Homosexuals were once the pet target of security personnel during King Gyanendra's regime.

At the Women Human Rights Defenders' third national consultation, Amrita Thapa, general secretary of Maoists' women's association, said homosexuals were "unnatural" and were "polluting society".

The new government ignored the plight of the community with deputy prime minister KP Oli, who belongs to the powerful Communist party of Nepal-Unified Marxist Leninist, telling the meeting that he was not prepared to talk about homosexuals.

Last month, the UN High Commission for Human Rights called for recognition of changing sexual orientations.

Although Nepal's gay community subsequently petitioned Prime Minister Koirala to heed the UN call and accept gays as part of society with equal rights, the plea so far has gone ignored.

Link (http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/7598_1887903,000500020008.htm)

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Wow

You got to wonder how much the "communists" are actual communists.

Lenin made being homosexual legal in Russia, and you'd think (supposedly) being Marxist -Leninist-Maoist they would recall that?

Its amazingly disgrace full for communists, people who claim to be Marxist to move against Marxist understanding and suggest homosexuality is a product of capitalism.

stupid fucking morons

[Wanted Man]

WTF mate? Wasn't it the Nepali Maoists who conducted Nepal's first gay marriage in the territory that they occupied? Or maybe I'm mixing it up with India or something?

[razboz]

Im not surprised. Authoritarian groups are very much prone to attempt to seek out scape goats for the "moral corrution", which are in fact their own failures to acheive their goals. Random repression against minority groups has always been the hallmark of groups which have authoritarian tendencies and a heavy reliance on leadership, by the party or by party leaders.

[Messiah]

Pathetic. Bunch of bigoted primitives.

[Fawkes]

Fuckin' pieces of shit. It's people like them that disgrace socialism.

[Louis Pio]

Hmm moralistic maoists. Not really any surprise. Only difference from them an the rightwing christians on this question is that the one group says is the devils fault were the maoist blame capitalism. Then again roots of nepalese maoism is in a quite backwards peasant society so they seem to adopt some of the negative aspects of that.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

WTF mate? Wasn't it the Nepali Maoists who conducted Nepal's first gay marriage in the territory that they occupied? Or maybe I'm mixing it up with India or something?


I think it was an insurgency group in the Phillipines.

[LSD]

WTF mate? Wasn't it the Nepali Maoists who conducted Nepal's first gay marriage in the territory that they occupied?

No actually that was the BDS.

Source (http://www.nepalnews.com/archive/2006/aug/aug27/news09.php)

There's not that much surprising in this news. Maoist groups tend to emerge in undeveloped peasant societies, and undeveloped peasant socities tend to be socially conservative.

Stalinists rarely transcend local prejudices, they're just expert at dressing them up in Marxist-sounding language.

[razboz]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 03:28 pm
Stalinists rarely transcend local prejudices, they're just expert at dressing them up in Marxist-sounding language.
This is one of the defining characteristic of many successful Communist leaders of the 20th century. They have always shown themselves extremely adaptable, often compromising their own "beleifs", from Lenin's New Economic Plan to Stalin's Nazi-Soviet Pact, to the turn towards Capitalism in China (cant remeber the man who did this' name) to these Nepali Maoists.

[Vargha Poralli]

Lenin's New Economic Plan

Why the fuck do you drag Lenin in to this. It is funny to reveal your hypocrisy to criticise Lenin For Krondast and then again for NEP which is introduced to prevent more Krondasts.

As for OP this not exactly a surprise to me since i never expected any progressiveness under any big South Asian Communist Groups(Indian,Nepali,Pakistani,Bangladeshi etc)

[razboz]

Why the fuck do you drag Lenin in to this. It is funny to reveal your hypocrisy to criticise Lenin For Krondast and then again for NEP which is introduced to prevent more Krondasts.

I never said anything about this "Krondast" not knowing what the hell that is. And i drag Lenin into this because he might be considered to be a proto-Stalinist or Stalin a post-Leninist and proved to be extremely flexible when it came to gaining power and keeping it, in terms of policy at least.

[The Grey Blur]

And i drag Lenin into this
The thread is on the Nepalese Maoists and their attacks on gays. There is no obvious connection between there and Lenin who was a Russian Bolshevik and who was in favour of equal rights for gay people.


proto-Stalinist
Lenin was forcefully against Stalin's political dithering and his drive to increase the Party bureaucracy. He too authorative measures against counter-revolutionaries whereas Stalin carried out violent purges within the Bolshevik Party itself against political rivals.


"Krondast"
"Kronstadt" was a naval base located outside Petrograd, the heart of the Russian Revolution. The sailors there were extremely favourable to the Bolsheviks and took part in the October Revolution of 1918. By 1921 though the make-up of the base had changed and the peasant dominated garrison, in reaction to the undoubted hardships of War Communism, launched an armed uprising against the Bolsheviks. Many Anarchists support the Kronstadt uprising (despite its alliance, intentional or not, with the capitalist reaction) as an Anarchist uprising. The uprising made Lenin realise that War Communism was damaging Bolshevik support amongts the peasantry and moved to repair this by bringing in the New Economic Policy which was much more favourable to the peasants.


proved to be extremely flexible when it came to gaining power and keeping it
This is not neccessarily a bad thing. Lenin was a realist, not a utopian and used a Marxist analysis to understand people's motivations and use these to forward Socialism.


often compromising their own "beleifs", from Lenin's New Economic Plan to Stalin's Nazi-Soviet Pact
Tell me how in either of these instances "beliefs" were compromised?

Communism isn't a religion...

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 09:28 am
There's not that much surprising in this news. Maoist groups tend to emerge in undeveloped peasant societies, and undeveloped peasant socities tend to be socially conservative.
Sorry, this is anti-peasant priviliged BS. The Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist) has also been conducting terror against the peasant population, including extortion of forced labor.

And you'll notice they justify their anti-gay repression in terms of Chinese and Soviet Stalinism, not in terms of native Nepali prejudice.

No, this is not some expression of peasant ignorance. It is the conscious, deliberate action of a reactionary petty-bourgeois utopian sect.

[LSD]

Sorry, this is anti-peasant priviliged BS.

What would be "priviliged BS" would be to assert that most Nepalis don't support gay rights because they're Nepali or because of their "culture". But there's nothing "anti-peasant" in acknowledging the fact that less developed countries tend to be less socially progressive.

It doesn't imply that there's anything "wrong" with peasants, it just recognizes the indisputable reality that economic organization strongly shapes social norms and values.

Unless you're proposing some other reason that Nepal is so roundly anti-gay rights (http://www.sfweekly.com/Issues/2005-03-16/news/worldview.html)?


The Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist) has also been conducting terror against the peasant population, including extortion of forced labor.

And? Therefore?

I'm not saying that the CPN(M) is some sort of "tool of the peasantry", just that it exists in a socially conservative environment and so has adopted those socially conservative values.

I honestly don't know why you're arguing with that.


And you'll notice they justify their anti-gay repression in terms of Chinese and Soviet Stalinism, not in terms of native Nepali prejudice.

That's primarily to maintain the illusion of internal ideological consistancy. It's not like anyone outside the party gives a damn what "Stalin did".

But notice that Maoist groups can only get away with this kind of crap in societies which tolerate it.

There's a reason, after all, that the RCP is pro-gay rights (in their way), while the Nepali Maoists are not. And it's pure idealism to imagine that that reason is not, in large part at least, the environments in which they respectively operate.

If the Nepali people were solidly against homophobia, do you really think that the Nepali "communists" would be pursuing this "cleanup" drive?

Honestly, Severian, I've got to say that I'm somewhat suprised that you've bought into the Maoists' justification for their actions. Yeah, they claim that they're acting on Marxist principles, but they always claim that.

Surely it's obvious that they're actually being motivated by something else. Perhaps the same thing which drove the King to pursue a similar anti-gay campaign; perhaps the same thing which drove a random law student to try and get the BDS banned last year.

Sorry, but you can't chalk this all up to one "reactionary petty-bourgeois utopian sect". The Maoists may indeed be all those things, but their homophobia is clearly in reaction to a staunchly homophobic environment.

[Brownfist]

This is indeed disheartening to hear from Nepal. I think that there has been a consistent struggle within the Marxist movement about the role of homosexuality. This was even true in the US in the 1960's with different groups that weren't maoist. Till recently the RCP(USA) held a very similar position, and is evidence of the homophobia that is internal to numerous of our movements. I think that to blame the Maoists in Nepal solely is incorrect, rather it is clear from this article that nearly all of the main groups are opposed to homosexuality including the CPN(UML). Rather, I think that this is further evidence of the homophobia that is rampant in all movements in the world. I think that communists on this board who are not from Nepal should be careful about not adopting a position that is a classical Euro-American paternalism which suggests that they have perfect politics whereas, other parties especially in the Third World don't. Indeed this very paternalism is indicative of a racialized imperialist logic at work. What is needed within Nepal is a homosexual communist movement that agitates within Nepal, much like the kind of movements that we did see in Europe and North America. I think that one needs to recognize in Europe and America that the kind of sexuality movements that communists often disregarded at the time, and sometimes disregard till date have played profound roles in what we now consider to be normatively progressive politics.

[Brownfist]

Also, I would be very careful for North American comrades to assume a socially progressive atmosphere in their home countries because if we look at current elections and government regimes it is very clear that even Americans, and to a lesser extent even Canadians have deeply rooted social conservative values. I think that the same could be said for Europe who on very specific issues are socially progressive, but are deeply regressive on other issues.

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 10:42 am
WTF mate? Wasn't it the Nepali Maoists who conducted Nepal's first gay marriage in the territory that they occupied? Or maybe I'm mixing it up with India or something?
That was the Maoists in the Philippines.

[Red Heretic]

This is an old line that isn't so much original to the CPN(M), as it was handed down from the international communist movement. The Russian and Chinese comrades also unfortunately held this line.

There is a big struggle against this homophobic line being waged in the international communist movement by the Revolutionary Communist Party, USA, which also originally had this line handed down to it from the international communist movement.

[Red October]

this is pretty sick in my opinion. the gays and lesbians are valuable comrades in the struggle, persecuting them just alienates another oppressed group.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

First, I think what is disgusting is the fact that people are jumping on this immediately and discrediting the communist revolutionaries who have fought for a decade to end fuedalism. Yes this is disheartening but look at the make up of Nepal. It is very socially conservative. The article briefly mentions that there is only one political group in Nepal that advocates homosexual rights, this merely reflects the homophobic socially conservative nature of Nepal.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 04:48 pm
It doesn't imply that there's anything "wrong" with peasants, it just recognizes the indisputable reality that economic organization strongly shapes social norms and values.
It reflects yer privileged middle-class attitude towards peasants and working farmers. Also, Maoist groups in advanced capitalist countries have not always had a more enlightened attitude.


I'm not saying that the CPN(M) is some sort of "tool of the peasantry",

You didn't mention any other social layer in relation to Maoism or the CPN(M), so that did seem to be implied. Nice to have you explicitly disavow this idea, which is frequently expressed on the board.


But notice that Maoist groups can only get away with this kind of crap in societies which tolerate it.

There's a reason, after all, that the RCP is pro-gay rights (in their way), while the Nepali Maoists are not.

That wasn't always the line of the RCP, y'know. They had the same attitude as other Stalinists internationally. It took a lot of external pressure (of the milieu they're trying to recruit from) to bring 'em around. Until 2001 (http://www.rwor.org/margorp/homosexuality.htm), they still held the position that homosexuality is a negative product of capitalist society which will disappear under communism - as a number of CPN(Maoist) cadre are also quoted as saying in the article.

Also, not all cultures have the same history of anti-gay persecution as, well, Christendom. I know China, for example, had much less....early Western observers wrote disapprovingly of Chinese tolerance of homosexuals. The most intense period of anti-gay persecution in Chinese history is the People's Republic, so certainly this cannot be explained merely by Chinese traditions or social conservatism.

Wikipedia: Homosexuality in China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_China)

So you explain this simply with "undeveloped peasant socities tend to be socially conservative" you might ask if this is in fact "socially conservative" in the Nepali context, or is it a change from tradition?

Also, why is the CPN(Maoist)'s anti-gay position expressed through a violent campaign of intimidation? Because that's what they do to a lot of other people, too.


If the Nepali people were solidly against homophobia, do you really think that the Nepali "communists" would be pursuing this "cleanup" drive?

Possibly not. But then, I don't know any country whose population is "solidly against homophobia."

I'm not gonna say that the social environment of Nepal is totally irrelevant, but to raise that as the only explanation....let's the CPN(M) off the hook, as if nothing better was to be expected of Nepalis.

I might point out that not every "Communist" group in Nepal is engaging in this type of campaign. Only one is.

[LSD]

It reflects yer privileged middle-class attitude towards peasants and working farmers.

How so?

I didn't say a word about either peasants or "working farmers"; I just stated the point that undeveloped pre-industrialized socities tend to be more socially conservative than industrialized ones.

That's not because the peasantry is "evil" or whatever paranoid fantasy you infered from my post, it's just that social develpopment comes out of social relations and the less advanced the one, the less advanced the other.

It's the same reason that women's literacy in Nepal is less than half what men's is.

Or does acknowledging that fact make me guilty of "middle class anti-peasant priviliged BS"? I suppose I shouldn't point out the sexism in Nepal, either?

Maybe I should just pretend that there's no correlation between economic and social development. I guess that would be more "politicall corrct". After all, in this postcolonial "white guilt" environment we're really not supposed to attack anything "southern".

I know! Maybe homophoia and sexism are just a part of the Nepalese "culture", a "culture" which is of course equal to any other and which can't be attacked or criticized for to do so would constitute chauvinism and "cutlural imperialism"...

<_<


You didn&#39;t mention any other social layer in relation to Maoism or the CPN(M)

Actually I didn&#39;t mention any "social layer" at all.

I was talking about the economic structure of Nepal and its effect on cultural norms. Again, there&#39;s a reason that present-day Europe is more socially progressive than feudal Europe. It&#39;s not "anti-peasant" to recognize that social relations shape social vvalues.


That wasn&#39;t always the line of the RCP, y&#39;know. They had the same attitude as other Stalinists internationally. It took a lot of external pressure (of the milieu they&#39;re trying to recruit from) to bring &#39;em around.

Which is exactly my point.

If the Nepalese "milieu" had been opposed to this kind of homophobic campaign, the Maoists would have never dared initiate it. Regardless of the historical Stalinist line on homosexuality, politics is still politics.

And, incidently, the reason that the international Stalinist/Maoist line has been so strongly anti-gay is that both Stalinism and Maosim grew out of undeveloped socially conservative countries&#33;

Lenin, for his part, tried to combat Russian homophobia, but Stalin bought into it full sale. Stalinism didn&#39;t bring homophobia to Russia, Russia brought it to Stalinism.

Maoism then followed suit and since unfortunately by that time China had become rather homophoic, it wasn&#39;t a difficult adoption.

Again, Maoism as a movement tends to only be powerful in very undeveloped, usually colonized or post-colonized, socially conservative peasant socities. International Maoism is therefore a generally socially conservative ideology.

That doesn&#39;t mean that the CPN(M) should be "let off the hook" for their actions, it just helps to explain why this nominally "communist" party is so vitriolically homophobic.


Also, not all cultures have the same history of anti-gay persecution as, well, Christendom.

That&#39;s certainly a fair point, but even those historical socities which have tolerated homosexuality have tended to be very limited and conservative in their toleration.

For sure, no pre-industrialized society ever views homosexual relationships to be "on par" with heterosexual ones, and with very few exepetions, exclusive homosexuality was always condemned.

Christianity did adopt a particularly vitriolic anti-homosexuality line, but I thnk it&#39;s facetious to blame homophobia in Nepal on Christianity, especially as it&#39;s the majority Christian countries that are the most progressive on this issue right now.

Ideology&#39;s important, but it&#39;s not paramount. It&#39;s social organization and history which plays the key role in shaping social and cultural values.


Also, why is the CPN(Maoist)&#39;s anti-gay position expressed through a violent campaign of intimidation? Because that&#39;s what they do to a lot of other people, too.

Oh, no doubt.

But the reason that they&#39;re targetting this particular group is because they operate within an environment which strongly condemns homosexuality and because Maoism, as a movement, tends to only succeed (if you can call it that) in those kinds of environments.

That was all I was trying to say.

[razboz]

@Permanent Revolution



The thread is on the Nepalese Maoists and their attacks on gays. There is no obvious connection between there and Lenin who was a Russian Bolshevik and who was in favour of equal rights for gay people.

I was referring to authoritarian revolutionary groups. Maoists are authoritarians. The Russian Bolsheviks were authoritarian. To examine the aberrations of the Maoists in Nepal, we must examine their roots. Indeed they are followers of the Leninist tradition of thought which favours "realism" over acheiving your goals. Lenin was ready to tempriarily or perhaps even permanently, give up his marxist aims in order to fullfill immediate political victories. It is very likely that the Russian revolution would not have occured had this not been the case.



Lenin was forcefully against Stalin&#39;s political dithering and his drive to increase the Party bureaucracy. He too authorative measures against counter-revolutionaries whereas Stalin carried out violent purges within the Bolshevik Party itself against political rivals.

I agree that by the end of Lenins life, Stalin had become a major problem for Lenin, as proven by his "Will". However i dont think their stances were that far apart. Lenin did advocate rather stern measures against "enemies of the people".


"Kronstadt" was a naval base located outside Petrograd, the heart of the Russian Revolution.

Yerah i know about Kronstadt. (thanks g.ram) It proves that Lenin was able to very rapidly change his policiesfrom rigid Bolshevism, to a more flexible open kind of "Communism"


This is not neccessarily a bad thing. Lenin was a realist, not a utopian and used a Marxist analysis to understand people&#39;s motivations and use these to forward Socialism.

I agree that a political realism is important and that compromise is sometimes the only way out of something. What im saying is that the Nepali Maoists are just demonstrating the same ability to mould their opinions to suit the local attitudes concerning homosexuality. Maoists are similar to Leninists in that they can change their views in order to suit the current situation. This can mean some pretty radical changes. For example in Nepal it was convenient for them to oppose gays, while in the Philipines the reverse can be said. This is where realism becomes a bad thing. When your own views on a subject are completely perverted and that this damges the moral integrity of the entire movement.



Tell me how in either of these instances "beliefs" were compromised?

Communism isn&#39;t a religion...

Beleif was the wrong word to use. Their stated claims to being "marxists" were betrayed. NEP was a temproary return to a certain level of capitalism to appease the peasants and provide a certain amount of econmic prosperity. Initself this is nto a bad thing. However it was a admission of Bolshevik failure in Russia and should have been followed up by a referendum as to wether or ot they wished to keep the Bolsheviks in power.

Stalin betrayed everything communism stands for, i mean everything that was left after ten or more years of his rather bad rule, when he allied with Hitler. He showed he was able to compromise with even his worst enemy and through this that he was willing to compomise life, freedom(whatever was left of it) and World wide Marxism to remain in power.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

I&#39;m totally dismayed by the willingness with which the comrades here have started vilifying the Maoist comrades in Nepal.

Comrades, I think we all agree that homophobia is an unscientific and incorrect attitude for a Marxist.

Now, you must consider the low level of tolerance in Nepalese society for homosexuality. You must understand that the Nepalese comrades are part of a movement which is deeply rooted in the masses of the Nepalese peasantry.

Consequently, it is the attitude of the Nepalese peasantry which is reflected in the line of the Nepalese Maoists.

While homophobia is an unfortunate fact in Nepalese society, you must understand that the Nepalese Maoists are often peasants themselves, and therefore they cannot be free of the irrational prejudices which affect the minds of peasants.

Does this mean that we abandon our comrades because they make mistakes?

No, we criticize them, and we call on them to avoid excesses of this sort in the future.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

Think of it this way, comrades.

The Nepalese Maoists have not had the opportunities for a scientific education which were available to us.

So when we criticize their errors, we must not abandon their cause.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by Spirit of [email protected] 06, 2007 08:14 pm
Think of it this way, comrades.

The Nepalese Maoists have not had the opportunities for a scientific education which were available to us.

So when we criticize their errors, we must not abandon their cause.
I agree. This is an error, but it is disgusting to see people just throw away everything else they have stood for and fought for. Here, for example is what active postion they take on gender equality.


Gender Revolution
In an interview with American reporter Li Onesto, a Nepali woman guerrilla explained why she joined the CPN-M: "Women get neglected compared to men, by parents, husbands, and other family members. Nepali women are suppressed by the feudalistic system, and some women go to India to become prostitutes. This oppression is the main reason why I was inspired to become a revolutionary." Many of the Maoist soldiers are women, and gender has become an important issue to the CPN-M. Every guerrilla squad must include at least two women, and Prachanda insists that the CPN-M intends to bring women into leadership positions. The national literacy rate is 40 percent for men and 14 percent for women, so the CPN-M has developed a "local education system" to teach women how to read and write.

The mainstream political parties have so far been unresponsive to women&#39;s issues. Prior to the last eleclions in 1999, both major parties promised that 10 percent of their candidates would be women, but by the time of the election women represented no more than seven percent of the candidates of either party. Following the elections, women made up 5.8 percent of the parliament, a minimal improvement over the 3.4 percent of the previous body.
The treatment of Nepali women has come under the scrutiny of the international community in the past few years. In May 1999, the United Nations Development Program (UNDP) representative for Nepal said, "Systematic gender discrimination still pervades almost all facets of women&#39;s realities in Nepal today." For example, Nepali law dictates that daughters cannot inherit any property unless they remain unmarried until the age of 35; however, if they marry later, the property has to be returned to their brothers. Furthermore, abortions are illegal and carry a maximum sentence of two and a half years in prison, but government records actually show that women who undergo abortion are usually charged with infanticide, which means a sentence of ten years to life. In one well-publicized case, a 13-year-old rape victim was sentenced to 20 years in prison for having an abortion, while her rapist was arrested briefly but then released.

These severe social and legal restrictions on Nepali women are the major reason that Nepali women commit suicide more frequently than men. Currently, government and law enforcement officials are considering criminal charges for men who inflict the kind of psychological torture on their wives that causes them to commit suicide. Until the government comes to their aid, though, women will continue to be attracted to the CPN-M&#39;s uniquely egalitarian ideology.

http://hir.harvard.edu/articles/997/2/

I strongly reccomend Dispatches from the People&#39;s War in Nepal (http://www.lionesto.net/dispatches.html). It&#39;s a really good read.

[Brownfist]

I think that the problem with the current discussion is that I think numerous comrades are envisioning revolution to be a complete rupture on all fronts, whether it be economic, social, political and cultural. I think that we can see that this is not true anywhere in the world whether it was the USSR, PRC, Vietnam etc. Rather, one will necessarily engage with a revolution within a revolution. This is what is needed within the Nepalese movement generally, because it seems clear that this homophobia is not isolated necessarily to the Maoists, although they are the ones that are currently enforcing this clean up. Thus, as I said before there will definitely need to be an ideological struggle, but there will also necessarily need to be a gay rights movement within the Nepalese revolutionary movement to rectify this ideological and social travesty.

[Comrade_Scott]

man this sucks... ive now lost what litle respect i had for the nepal maoists. a party that excludes bigots now run by them. a sad day in nepal

[Joseph Ball]

Everyone is getting very excited about the report of one journalist. I have never heard anything like this from the Nepalese maoists before. How do we know the story is true? If there is any truth in it is it general party policy?

Homophobia is wrong because socialists believe in equality and oppose discrimination. But also wrong is the attitude of western capitalist-roaders, fat on the super-profits produced by the sweat of workers in the oppressed nations, adopting a superior attitude and making arbitrary judgements on the struggles of the exploited masses.

It is fashionable for western leftists to go into raptures about Castro and Cuba. This is a &#39;safe&#39; form of radicalism that even the Mayor of London supports. Has Castro&#39;s record on gay rights always been whiter than white? No, but people engaged with him on the issue and his line changed. Maybe there&#39;s a lesson to learn from that.

It&#39;s nice to see that Sevarin is still keeping to his/her line about maoists &#39;terrorising the peasants&#39; in Nepal. I suggest Sevarin gets a job with one of the Supermarket Tabloids so she/he can actually get paid for all the hours spent writing fantastical nonsense.

[Brownfist]

I think that there is some evidence Joseph that there is some truth to these claims as some of the gay rights websites indeed do state that this such an event has occurred. It is not clear however, how widespread this is. Furthermore, it is not clear from any of the reporting that this is the general policy of the party or just some of the bigoted views of a few lower-level leaders and cadre. I think again we need to remember, especially Euro-American comrades, that there is no such thing as perfect politics, and that one socialist revolution will not solve all of the socio-economic issues in Nepal. Rather, there will be consistently new struggles, like those against homophobia, casteism and sexism that will occur within the framework of a socialist regime to further change the relations of power in that society. I think far too often Euro-American comrades, who are alienated from any real revolutionary practice, start to think that they have perfect politics and if in the context of a revolution would be able to ensure the perfect revolution, and two have an idealist vision of revolution.

The Blue Diamond Society has put up a report on their website demanding that sexual rights be afforded to the LGBT community in the new interim constitution. Till date, the old constitution makes homosexuality illegal in Nepal. It must be noted that the very society (the Blue Diamond Society) that is now speaking out against some of the actions taken by some of the Maoists in the city, in their report about human rights abuses of sexual minorities in Nepal does not mention even one incident since 2002 of such abuse coming from the Maoists, rather all harassment has come at the hands of the police. However, I think that this one isolated incident cannot become a blanket dismissal of the CPN(Maoist) and their revolutionary movement. I again note that the current constitution, which criminalizes the LGBT comunity, was in place when both the CPN(UML) and the NCP were in power.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 05:52 pm
urthermore, it is not clear from any of the reporting that this is the general policy of the party or just some of the bigoted views of a few lower-level leaders and cadre.
"a few bad apples"? Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, from every capitalist spokesperson justifying every abuse of their cops and soldiers.

In any case, if you read the article it quotes the Maoist spokesperson at a national conference, as well as the Kathmandu-area leaders.

And it appears Maoists visiting Nepal have been told the CPN(M), as a party, holds this position against homosexuals:
After the talk, i asked about the CPN(M)’s position on queers… and i was told that - “regrettably” - the CPN(M) “opposes homosexuality”&#33;&#33;&#33;

Thibault was quick to reiterate that the RCP(OC) supports equal rights for gays and lesbians, and tried to explain the CPN(M)’s position by referring to the “backwards” and feudal society in which they are operating… not an explanation i accept&#33;
.....
As for Onesto, she does not mention homosexuality even once in her 256 page book. (As a possible explanation, shall i mention the fact that the RCP-USA with which she seems to be affiliated held a similar anti-queer position until 2001 – two years after the trip to Nepal on which she bases her book? Yes i think i shall…)

RedHeretic, in this thread, also admitted this is a matter of party policy and not just bad apples:
This is an old line that isn&#39;t so much original to the CPN(M), as it was handed down from the international communist movement. The Russian and Chinese comrades also unfortunately held this line.

There is a big struggle against this homophobic line being waged in the international communist movement by the Revolutionary Communist Party, USA, which also originally had this line handed down to it from the international communist movement.

Accurate if you substitute "international Stalinist groups" for "international communist movement". Though really it&#39;s the Moscow and Beijing regimes primarily that developed and spread the anti-gay line.

Joseph Ball&#39;s Cuba comparison doesn&#39;t help the CPN(M). One, the Cuban government&#39;s past homophobic policies can&#39;t be explained simply by inherited social context; Stalinist (specifically Soviet) ideological influence is definitely a factor there as well. Two, they were never this bad, probably because they were never Stalinist, just partly Stalinist influenced. Three, their worst period was decades ago...Maoists are still lagging behind in the 21st century. A detailed and rounded examination of Cuba&#39;s history on gay rights. (http://www.blythe.org/arenas.html)

[OneBrickOneVoice]

you haven&#39;t proved this is something other than a few bad apples. And wtf are you talking about? Homophobia exsists in all leftist movements.

I guess all you anarchists just lost repect for POUM and the anarchists.


Despite these supportive stances, the anarchist movement of the time certainly wasn&#39;t free of homophobia: an editorial in an influential Spanish anarchist journal from 1935 argued that an Anarchist shouldn&#39;t even associate with homosexuals, let alone be one: "If you are an anarchist, that means that you are more morally upright and physically strong than the average man. And he who likes inverts is no real man, and is therefore no real anarchist."[40] Such attitudes have continued in the anarchist movement through to the present day.[41] Anarchist communist political theorist Daniel Guérin, who was himself bisexual, pointed out that Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, the "original" anarchist thinker, was a sexual puritan[42] who condemned homosexuality as a bourgeois and not a working class phenomenon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_and...hist_homophobia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_and_LGBT_rights#Anarchist_homophobia)

oh yeah and look at what I found on wikipedia.


Nepal
The Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist) claim to be recruiting homosexuals to their guerrilla forces

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_and_LGBT_rights#Nepal

[Spirit of Spartacus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 09:00 pm
I think that the problem with the current discussion is that I think numerous comrades are envisioning revolution to be a complete rupture on all fronts, whether it be economic, social, political and cultural. I think that we can see that this is not true anywhere in the world whether it was the USSR, PRC, Vietnam etc. Rather, one will necessarily engage with a revolution within a revolution. This is what is needed within the Nepalese movement generally, because it seems clear that this homophobia is not isolated necessarily to the Maoists, although they are the ones that are currently enforcing this clean up. Thus, as I said before there will definitely need to be an ideological struggle, but there will also necessarily need to be a gay rights movement within the Nepalese revolutionary movement to rectify this ideological and social travesty.
Exactly.

Some of the comrades on this forum appear to have narrowed down the People&#39;s War in Nepal to be a struggle for homosexual rights alone.

There are larger issues in Nepal, and I&#39;m sure as education and awareness among the Nepalese comrades increases, there will be internal Party debate on this issue, and some sort of consensus will be reached to protect homosexual rights.

For the moment, let&#39;s criticize this incorrect policy, but let&#39;s support the broader initiatives of the CPN(M)...fighting for peasants against landlords, and workers against bosses.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

RedHeretic, in this thread, also admitted this is a matter of party policy and not just bad apples:
This is an old line that isn&#39;t so much original to the CPN(M), as it was handed down from the international communist movement. The Russian and Chinese comrades also unfortunately held this line.

There is a big struggle against this homophobic line being waged in the international communist movement by the Revolutionary Communist Party, USA, which also originally had this line handed down to it from the international communist movement.


I don&#39;t think its a case of "a few bad apples" either.

What you need to remember is that the party line of the CPN(M) comes from the peasants and workers who constitute it.

If a communist organization in Nepal has a homophobic stance, then this clearly reflects homophobic attitudes in the masses it represents.

Surely this is not enough of a reason to abandon their cause?

[Burrito]

This article is propaganda for simpletons. Are you a simpleton?

Notice that there is not a single direct quote from the Maoists let alone the CPN(M) in any official capacity. For instance, we see:

"...told the Agency",
"...reportedly said",
"...allegedly",
etc. etc.

As reported by this NGO and this NGO alone.

Now I ask: since when has the CPNM been afraid to directly state a controversial position? The very idea of "Prolonged Peoples War" is acknowledged to be "unpopular" insofar as as the masses have to be "won over".

Never forget that the CIA owns thousands of media outlets around the globe, let alone the Royalist control of the mainstream media in Nepal. Notice how the Maoists are described as "insurgents". But wait, they have always been referred to as "Maoists" in the bourgeois press or "Terrorists" by the Royalist mouthpieces. Thats odd.

Of course it could be an official policy. It could be a "rotten apple" as some have surmised.

But so far the evidence is second-hand and circumstantial.

Where&#39;s the official pronouncement of this so-called moral crusade? Aren&#39;t those wicked "vanguardists" so fond of them?

Think about it.

Greg.

P.S.

Science has made it to Nepal, rest assured, so thats not an excuse for homophobia :rolleyes:

[Severian]

Originally posted by Spirit of [email protected] 09, 2007 02:55 pm


RedHeretic, in this thread, also admitted this is a matter of party policy and not just bad apples:
This is an old line that isn&#39;t so much original to the CPN(M), as it was handed down from the international communist movement. The Russian and Chinese comrades also unfortunately held this line.

There is a big struggle against this homophobic line being waged in the international communist movement by the Revolutionary Communist Party, USA, which also originally had this line handed down to it from the international communist movement.

What you need to remember is that the party line of the CPN(M) comes from the peasants and workers who constitute it.
OK, we&#39;ve discussed the inclusion of gays as targets of this "clean-up drive" against "social pollutants" - but how about the drive itself? What&#39;s up with that? I&#39;d suggest it implies the CPN(M)&#39;s atttempted popular appeal is partly based on "law and order."

The CPN(Maoist) has promised to turn itself into a peaceful parliamentary party from a guerilla movement; certainly it needs to maximize its appeal leading into elections for the Constituent Assembly.

The most obvious possibility is to remake itself as a reformist party; but Nepal already has plenty of reformist parties calling themselves "Communist." That ecological niche is occupied. So the CPN(M) needs to find some kind of edge on these competitors; preferably using its existing capabilities, which are primarily military and paramilitary experience.

So: apparently they&#39;re setting out to enforce law and order, and social conformity, something that will appeal to a certain layer of peole. Of course, this is not an especially progressive appeal, and in fact it&#39;s more typical of rightist parties.

Peace Talks Stalled, Maoists Turn to Law and Order (http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=35248)

"After the people&#39;s revolution, the kind of security situation that should have prevailed has not emerged. There are many reports of incidents against local people and the gangsters responsible are being given protection by the current governance system and the police," said [Maoist leader Pawan Man] Shrestha. "We feel that the steps we have taken to control gang activities have brought about some positive results but they haven&#39;t been fully controlled -- our efforts are ongoing."

Last Saturday, Shrestha revealed that his group and Maoist partners had captured 70 alleged criminals freeing 60 after investigations.
...
But according to Shrestha, citizens have nothing to fear. Recent activities "don&#39;t imply that we are taking law and order into our own hands. It implies that we are protecting the citizens and their property. It&#39;s social work."

Also: Maoist cadre beat Badi women (http://www.jagaranmedia.org.np/e-bulletin.php?id=250#1) "Dalit", in this article, refers to the lowest caste, in the past often called "untouchables." "Badi" is a subcaste of Dalits who traditionally have lived by prostitution. background on Badi caste (http://www.advocacynet.org/cpage_view/APDiaryNepal_blog8_57_309.html)


For instance, Maoist Cadres have recently beaten 16 women of Badi Community this 10 of May 2006.
....
30 households of Badi of Mudha, Kaliali were involved in forceful prostitution as they do not have any other alternate occupation to live their live for. Civil society and local organizations of Badis itself are working to end this occupation and for their rehabilitation but the state never supported them and brought about any special programs for their rehabilitation. Finally, this community has to rely in this occupation only. But in the 10 May &#39;06, 8 Maoists came to village and beat the 16 women out of which 13 were involved in Pesha (the forceful sexual occupation in local language is called &#39;Pesha&#39;) and other 3 were not involved in Pesha. This should not be forgotten that Maoists were quiet in the incident when few guys of &#39;Shahi&#39; surname were there in Mudha and burnt the house and hand of a woman when she asked for money of her occupation.
....
10. Perpetrator – Com. Tufaan:
We several times circulated the notice to not continue this occupation. Area Incharge Com. Kasam and Com. Anu who is responsible for this area have several times suggested these Badis to leave Pesha but they never agreed and finally we had to beat them. I agree that it was me along with other 7 comrades beat them. This action from our party is for their goodwill. They got hands and legs which work; they should be able to choose alternate occupation themselves for their livelihood.

That&#39;s from the "Jagaran Media Center", a Dalit organization. There are other witness statements and details.

The JMC&#39;s right that the answer to prostitution is to create other ways to make a living. Beating prostitutes is a deeply reactionary answer. It&#39;s often practiced by rightist movements including Islamists.

The similar Shining Path movement in Peru had, in part, a similar "law and order" appeal:
Above all what Shining Path offers is "order." The group sets up its so-called people&#39;s committees in rural villages that establish strict rules for conducting local affairs and organizing agricultural work. The committee of five is run by a Sendero
cadre, who "represents the proletariat," as one of its documents states.

A New York Times reporter recently described his visit to Raucana, a shantytown outside of Lima that is run by Shining Path. "Protected by high walls, watchtowers and trenches, squatters collectively dug wells, raised light poles and laid out
streets," he observed. "A square was designated for people&#39;s trials and public whippings of prostitutes, thieves, homosexuals, drug users and wife beaters."

The appeals to order, stability, a strict moral code, and quasi-religious worship of a "wise" supreme authority, President Gonzalo, are particularly directed to women. The burden of the social breakdown falls especially hard on women in the countryside, who are responsible not only for child-rearing but often for feeding the family as men migrate to the cities in search of work.
link (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.activism/tree/browse_frm/thread/53b844aa05847658/0b92797712d98ec7?rnum=1)

[Joseph Ball]

I don&#39;t know much about the Shining Path but I&#39;m not inclined to accept an accusation against them just because a &#39;New York Times&#39; journalist makes it.

The allegations about the punishment beating of prostitutes is more detailed in terms of evidence presented but again senior Maoists need to be given more of a chance to respond to such allegations before a full assessment is made.

Nepal is one of the poorest countries in the world. In poor, mainly rural countries attitudes do tend to be very socially conservative. According to the Hindustan Times (http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/7598_1887903,000500020008.htm) no Nepalese party wants to stand up for gay rights-including the Communist Party (United Marxist-Leninist) which Sevarin seems to have some sympathy for.

This does not mean that beating prostitutes is therefore OK. If members of any Communist Party do this then others have a right to ask for an investigation and to criticise them.

We have to look at what the main issue is in any country. In Nepal the main issue is the people need a revolution to lift them out of poverty and feudalism. The Maoists are making this revolution and therefore they deserve support. You don&#39;t just withdraw support because of negative reports of the actions of some cadres. Because then you are saying that because you think a group of prostitutes were beaten, millions of Nepalis should have to carry on living in a state of misery, poverty, sickness and reduced life expectancy. The right approach is to unite with the positive and struggle with the negative. The wrong approach is to use the negative as an excuse for denying the oppressed people their right to revolution.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Joseph [email protected] 11, 2007 03:49 pm
In Nepal the main issue is the people need a revolution to lift them out of poverty and feudalism. The Maoists are making this revolution and therefore they deserve support.
Is that a fact? Seems to be these actions shed some light on what their overall political course really is....and it doesn&#39;t seem so revolutionary when you look at their actions, not words.

Certainly almost nobody can really believe that the Maoists are still making a revolution, as their overall course is clearly towards becoming an electoral party. The only way to try to reconcile current events with the belief there was a revolution advancing towards victory in Nepal - is to conclude the Maoist leadership betrayed that revolution. Even that explanation has its problems, but it&#39;s by far the best way to try to reconcile that belief with the contradictory current events.....

[The Feral Underclass]

It was me who changed the the topic title.

[Forward Union]

NEPAL&#39;S hardline Maoist guerillas, on the brink of achieving effective government power in the Himalayan kingdom, have turned their attention to so-called "social pollutants" and denounced homosexuals as "a by-product of capitalism".

Emerging from a decade of fighting government forces, the insurgents have launched a clean-up drive against polygamy, polyandry, infidelity, drunkenness and homosexuality -- even though many gays were previously aligned with the Maoists against the autocratic rule of the widely despised King Gyanendra.

Maoist cadres, seen regularly on the streets of Kathmandu as they move towards taking over key roles in the Government under a peace accord worked out with Prime Minister Girija Prasad Koirala, have warned home owners not to let out rooms to gays and lesbians.

They have also announced "a zero-tolerance policy towards homosexuality" and a crackdown on pornographic films.

A Maoist commander allegedly told a group of gay men: "We are against any aberrant activity that could have a negative and vitiating effect on society."

And when members of the gay rights group Blue Diamond Society met Maoist leader Dev Gurung, he reportedly said homosexuality was a by-product of capitalism. "Under Soviet rule and when China was still very much a communist state, there were no homosexuals in the Soviet Union or China," Mr Gurung is reported to have said.

"Now they are moving towards capitalism, homosexuals may have arisen there as well. So homosexuality is a product of capitalism. Under socialism this kind of problem does not exist."

According to India&#39;s IANS news service, when the Blue Diamond Society members met other Maoist leaders to complain that homosexuals were under attack from Maoist cadres, the reaction was "disheartening".

Amrita Thapa, general secretary of the Maoist women&#39;s association, told a conference recently that homosexuals were unnatural and were "polluting" society.

Under King Gyanendra&#39;s rule, homosexuals were a pet target of his personal security apparatus.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...4-2703,00.html

[Cheung Mo]

Lamentably, every political organisation that I know of in Nepal (along with a substantial majority in India) is either active or complicit in this grotesque persecution. Factions of the left that support suppressing the rights of homosexuals and of other sexual and gender minorities are one of two things. First, they are crypto-aristocrats who intend to use ruling class mechanisms of social control (i.e. repression and/or exploitation of women, of those who fail to conform to some arbitrary and reactionary "norm", and of visible minorities) on those over whom they wield power. Or second, they are people who for various reasons (poor education, little cultivation of critical and abstract thinking skills, over-indoctrination in a repressive moral framework) do not understand that -- rather than homosexuality being a form of bourgeois decadence -- homosexuality&#39;s repression is an attempt (albeit hypocritical, for they generally do not adhere to the unjust methods of social control they impose on their subjects) by a ruling class to exert social control on those over whom it wields power, and as such their homophobia is a remnant of their indoctrination -- whether it be formally or through passive absorption -- into the previous ruling class&#39; reactionary moral framework. The former must be crushed; the latter must be enlightened to moral and intellectual liberation, but when the options boil down to the persecution or equality, the oppressors must not longer be treated as our comrades, and our words, our sentiments, our arrows, our armaments must intervene decisively on the side of the unjustly oppressed.

[Che Guevara 1415]

Homosexuality is a by-product of capitalism , there were hardly any homosexuals in the former eastern bloc compared to the number in the west .

P.S : Please don&#39;t hurl me with insults , I&#39;m just stating the facts . There were always less homosexuals in communist countries than in capitalist countries . I dont mean to insult homos , nor support them . Just stating the facts .

[Pirate Utopian]

you have no proof of that 1415&#33;, and calling it a by-product (wich usually negative) of capitalism is only showing your homophobia.

homosexuality didnt show much anywhere in the days of socialist China and the USSR, including outside of those countries like capitalist countries because there wasnt much discussion or attention for it.

[sexyguy]

Quote from another post by me on another thread.
Of course there will be alienation in any post revolutionary society. Their will also be racism and bullying of every description. How could it be otherwise when we are standing up-to-our-necks in the shit of capitalism economically and culturally in every way. Taking power from the increasingly chaotic warmongering capitalists will be the easy part as resent history has demonstrated, Russia, China, Cuba, Vietnam etc, etc. Holding the power long enough and firm enough against anyone who would drag humanity back to the hideously insane blood thirsty racket of democratic capitalism we now live under, is more difficult. Again as resent history will testify.
Alienation will get trashed when capitalism gets trashed once and for all time.


This ‘shock-horror’ indignation and outrage is literally incredible. It is either naive in the extreme to imagine that all the ills of capitalism, and in this case feudalism, will be overcome in a revolution EVEN IN THE BEST OF ALL POSSIBLE WORKERS STATES, or it is the predictable ‘left’ anti-communist scabbing on this otherwise long hoped for revolutionary achievement. What better way to undermine this revolution among the ’lefts’ in the west than by focusing in on the particular piece of backwardness.

[Che Guevara 1415]

These days , you always meet at least one homosexual in your life . I talked to people who lived in socialist countries , and they never recalled meeting one . Plus , I have a feeling that capitalist governments promote homosexuality , so people would discuss gay-marriages rather than social issues . I doubt that capitalists discuss homosexuality because they really want the good for them , they must have some ulterior motive .

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Che Guevara 1415 you are off your nut mate :P

ive never heard such crap, i mean that literally&#33;

[Pirate Utopian]

Originally posted by Che Guevara [email protected] 19, 2007 10:09 pm
These days , you always meet at least one homosexual in your life . I talked to people who lived in socialist countries , and they never recalled meeting one . Plus , I have a feeling that capitalist governments promote homosexuality , so people would discuss gay-marriages rather than social issues . I doubt that capitalists discuss homosexuality because they really want the good for them , they must have some ulterior motive .
i dont care, homosexuality is not a by-product of anything, why are you mentioning homosexuality as if it is something horrible that will be destroyed by socialism

[Brekisonphilous]

This is just sick. They are going to poison what could be a genuine revolution with their reactionary bullshit. If they keep that sort of mentality, they lose my support.

[Che Guevara 1415]

I&#39;ve never said that homosexuality is a bad thing , or a good thing . And seriously , you could hardly find a homosexuality in the former socialist bloc before 1989 and in China , Vietnam back when they were still socialist . Calling something a by-product of something , is not the same thing as insulting it . In Czarist Russia , homosexuality was common among with the nobility , and it was hardly seen from 1917-1991 . I&#39;m not saying it&#39;s good or bad , sorry if it seems insulting ... [COLOR=red]

In your opinion , why do capitalist countries promote homosexuality so much ?

[Pirate Utopian]

they dont promote it, america is a very conservative country and most people are against gaymarrige.

[Reuben]

Originally posted by Che Guevara [email protected] 19, 2007 09:31 pm
I&#39;ve never said that homosexuality is a bad thing , or a good thing . And seriously , you could hardly find a homosexuality in the former socialist bloc before 1989 and in China , Vietnam back when they were still socialist . Calling something a by-product of something , is not the same thing as insulting it . In Czarist Russia , homosexuality was common among with the nobility , and it was hardly seen from 1917-1991 . I&#39;m not saying it&#39;s good or bad , sorry if it seems insulting ... [COLOR=red]http://www.hrono.ru/heraldicum/images/kosmos7.gif

In your opinion , why do capitalist countries promote homosexuality so much ?
oh yes because the pre 1917 russian nobility were capitalists :lol:

The notion of capitalist countries promoting homosexuality is well and truly bollocks. For fucks sake homosexuality was legislated against in britain until the 1960s. indeed the truly capitalist gvoernment of margaret thatcher introduced a law which banned teachers from saying that a homosezual relationship was equal to a heterosexual relationship.

Try and reply before you are banned - piece of shit.

[Che Guevara 1415]

Why do you want to ban me ? I didnt say anything homphobic . I have explicitly said that . Well it might be different in england , but opposite is true of eastern european countries . Why do you want to ban me , just because I have a different opinion than you ? If I say that a better society is a by-product of socialism , am I anti-socialist ? What about if I am glad that homosexuality exists and support its promotion ? Why do you assume I hate homosexuals . You assume too much . Would you also get angry if I said that idolization of pop-stars , or rock-stars is a by-product of capitalism ? I for one thing , support idolization of rock-stars in some things , but I also believe it is a by product of the capitalist society .

[Che Guevara 1415]

I believe that homosexuality should be totally legalized and support same-sex marriages , [COLOR=red]

[Cryotank Screams]

So let me get this straight, capitalist countries, where such beliefs like homosexuality, is un-natural, a sexual deviancy, and something you can choose to be, and where pejoratives like "that&#39;s gay," and such are acceptable, and being gay is something "odd," and "funny," and such, are promoting homosexuality?

Also, just because people don&#39;t openly say, "I&#39;m gay," doesn&#39;t mean homosexuals didn&#39;t exist in Communist countries, you just didn&#39;t know about them, because they didn&#39;t talk about it, and were "in the closet."

Fuck you CG1415.

[Ezekiel]

There&#39;s still the possibility that that is disinformation altogether, but it&#39;s still possible. If it is true, then they are wrong, and Maoists should say so.

In the Phillippines, the Maoist New People&#39;s Army has performed weddings for homsexuals.

[Janus]

Merged.

[Che Guevara 1415]

In the media , homosexuality isnt seen as a bad thing . Most people I have met in the U.S don&#39;t think homsexuality is a bad thing . In comedies , homosexuality is seen as funny . Capitalist media is by no means homophobic . Neither am I , so stop calling me homophobic .

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by Che Guevara [email protected] 19, 2007 06:12 pm
In the media , homosexuality isnt seen as a bad thing . Most people I have met in the U.S don&#39;t think homsexuality is a bad thing . In comedies , homosexuality is seen as funny . Capitalist media is by no means homophobic . Neither am I , so stop calling me homophobic .
In America, being gay as portrayed in the media equates to being some loud flamboyant, lisping minstrel, they never show any homosexuals, talking normally, acting normally, or anything, and infact, being a homosexual, has to some degree become a character, "reality," shows try to find the "token gay guy," or the "token lesbian," not to mention, if you say, "I&#39;m gay," you can get anything from people saying it&#39;s ok, and genuinely meaning it, or more commonly people saying "ok," but really, are nervous, uncomfortable, and such, or you get homophobes, I mean, in America, homosexuality is not really accepted by any means, it has a long way to go, to say other wise is naive.

[sexyguy]

Ezekiel,

"In the Phillippines, the Maoist New People&#39;s Army has performed weddings for homsexuals"

Can you please provide your evidence. It would be helpful.

[Cheung Mo]

If homosexuality is inherently a capitalist phenomenon, then why is that the strongest opposition to homosexuality in Western capitalist states tends to come from conservative sections of the bourgeoisie and those whose ideals they influence?

[CodeAires]

Egad, this world is full of hypocrites. What ever happened to people working together? I feel sometimes that that level of Athouritarianism completely defeats the whole purpose of everything that Marx taught.

[TC]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 06:53 am
Ezekiel,

"In the Phillippines, the Maoist New People&#39;s Army has performed weddings for homsexuals"

Can you please provide your evidence. It would be helpful.
http://www.workers.org/world/2005/npa_0224/ (Workers World: "New People&#39;s Army recognizes same-sex marriage")

http://news.inquirer.net/nation/index.php?...&story_id=26688 (http://news.inquirer.net/nation/index.php?index=1&story_id=26688) (INQ7 "Red&#39;s officiate first gay marriage in NPA")

http://images.inq7.net/news/index/images/2005/feb/07/index_nerv.jpg

http://images.inq7.net/news/nation/images/2005/feb/07/0207npawed3b.jpg

[TC]

Have you noticed how much the bourgeois news has given to a *single* source in the previously unknown "blue diamond society" which has never been coroberated by any outside sources, anyone in the maoist movement, anyone in the 7 party alliance, or any independent reporters on the ground?

This is hearsay, no specific incidents or documents or references to anything that anyone has specifically said or done are provided. We should not assume that every press release issued by any random person is true just because its been frequently repeated.


Why would Dev Gurung agree to meet with an NGO if he opposed its aims? Why would a military commander not authorized to speak on behalf of the maoists agree to such a meeting with any NGO? If we assume such a meeting took place, which strikes me as unlikely, why would Dev Gurung allow the NGO to represent him rather than doing it himself, that makes no sense at all. No one releases a statement through a group they don&#39;t like they issue their own press releases.


This makes no sense at all, if Dev Gurung really thought homosexuality was the byproduct of capitalism or whatever, which would be an impossibly unlikely thing for a maoist in nepal to say as they don&#39;t consider nepal a capitalist society but a feudal one, he wouldn&#39;t have said it during an unrecorded meeting with a gay rights NGO, while not telling anyone else, he&#39;d have declined to meet with them in writing and if he wanted to issue a statement he&#39;d have done so directly or through a maoist press official.

[sexyguy]

REPORT AT THE SECOND ALL-RUSSIA
TRADE UNION CONGRESS
JANUARY 20, 1919
... “The workers were never separated by a Great Wall of China from the old society. And they have preserved a good deal of the traditional mentality of capitalist society. The workers are building a new society without themselves having become new people, or cleansed of the filth of the old world; they are still standing up to their knees in that filth. We can only dream of clearing the filth away. It would be utterly utopian to think this could be done all at once. It would be so utopian that in practice it would only postpone socialism to kingdom come.” ... Lenin.