are we out of touch...?

[R_P_A_S]

My friends;

I am slowly MAYBE coming to grips with the possibility that we might just be out of touch. correct me If I'm wrong...

I've never talked to or met a person who is living under a socialist model economy. or anyone that used to. i.e. Cuba or the former USSR.

Not that Venezuela really counts, but the 3 Venezuelans I know are uncertain and critical about Chavez and his Revolution.

The only people who are very pro-communism are people I've met on the Internet, and some people at the protest. but none of them have ever lived under a socialist model economy. or know what is like.

I look around and people seem to be fascinated more by the propaganda and the "good old days" of Stalin, Mao and rebel guerrilla victories of the 50s, 60's and 70's... sort of like, living in the past. my self included...

So i ask my self are most us caught up in the image the communism gives us through books and propaganda? What is the reality? YES! there's class struggles EVERYWHERE in the world, taking place as I type. but there hasn't been a big victory for communism in years. or ever at that. has there been one?

Are we just like some spoke persons for an island in the Caribbean because of it's brave history of standing against imperialism and great stats on paper? yet we don't even live there or visit? know people from there??

all I'm saying that perhaps are views are a bit clouded by more theory than reality. :( :blink: :unsure:

[BobKKKindle$]

We may not have witnessed the establishement of a communist revolution recently, but there are signs, not only that class struggle is a characteristic of Capitalism, but also that people are increasingly beginning to question whether Capitalism and neo-liberalism can deliver a fair distribution of income and wealth and whether Capitalism is an environmentally sustainable form of economic oraganisation. This represents a weakness in the ideological and cultural hegemony exercised by the ruling class.

Noteworthy examples include the campaign against the privatisation of water supply in Bolivia, where workers and peasants, despite not having a high level of ideological development, were able to challenge the prevailing economic and political orthodoxy, ongoing insurrectionary struggles such as that of the Zapata movement in response to the North American Free Trade Agreemtn, and the mass participation in protests against meetings of international economic organisations such as the G8. These are encouraging signs because it shows there is the potential for the development of a class consciousness, which is instrumental in achieving revolutionary change.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Too many look back to the past instead of looking forward. And it is my gut feeling that those who do this to the greatest extent are leninists/stalinists. Frankly, in my opinion, let them look to the past and stay there, because leninist/stalinist experiements have proved to not only be utter failures, but a danger.

Thanks largely to them we have a large part of the world population trembling in fear when they hear the words "socialism" and "communism". We have quite a few capitalist regimes with red flags thanks to them, and they are not exactly helping.

If anything, however well intentioned, they have done more damage to the working class movement than any Rockefeller or Mc.


Are we just like some spoke persons for an island in the Caribbean because of it's brave history of standing against imperialism and great stats on paper? yet we don't even live there or visit? know people from there??

This is a common tendency. It is funny how foreigners are often more enthusiastic about the regime on this island than those who actually live there are.
I personally think this might be a part of western arrogance. Just like many westerners who travel to Thailand etc. think they are better, know more and are more worthy than Thai's, foreigners come to Cuba to visit an illusion.

They work on sugar cane fields and what not on government programs while Cuban men in the neighbouring town are pissed on Rum every other day and laugh out loud and jokes about the stupid western fools who actually pay to work in a foreign country.

And these westerners are often ardent and fanatical supporters of a regime most people in that very country are if not sceptical, than at least have a more balanced view of.

One thing is to admire a small carribean nation for standing up against the colonial neighbour. But this does not make that nation "outstanding" or "unique", or even revolutionary. Throughout history countries have struggled to get rid of the chains of imperialism, and done so succesfully. Obviously, just because the Gauls fought against the Romans doesn't make them "socialist".

Anyways, IMHO, the quicker the workers movement denounce the stalinist experiements, the better. And when we do this, we can start to get rid of the chains of the past that haunts the workers movement.

[Rawthentic]

Just because you can't find any pro-communist people does not make you out touch. We see and here everyday of the class struggle, and that in itself proves us right. When we talk to working class people and we connect their needs with the ability to create a better world, there is no better way of being in touch with them.

[TheGreenWeeWee]

For starters, since I am a factory worker, I don't see people running to jump on any idelogical bandwagon. Workers are just dis-trustful of anyone who promotes any talk of "the employing class having nothing in common with the working class". Workers don't want the boat rocked when it comes to earning their bread and butter. When socialism or communism is mentioned the reation is: "They murder innocent people and want to control every aspect of a person's life. Any dissent is met with force." There are those who say they like their religious life and would rather stay under a system that allows the freedom of those expressions. No doubt workers are concerned with plant closings and factories relocating in Third World countries. They know reforms don't work anymore and they become more dog-eat-dog like. I would think most of you are out of touch having no contact with the working class. Perhaps idelogical cliques are more important or believing--which requires faith--in whatever god-men (women?) you follow in ideology.

On the other hand, politics should be for the ajournment of the political state and the economic creation of the industrial government which is the Republic of Labor. Yes it is a union type of system of what is to be done when it comes to working production and distribution. Use of non-circulatory Labor Time Vouchers would be used in place of money.

[bezdomni]

I don't feel out of touch with the proletariat. It is impossible for a Marxist-Leninist party to be both legitimate and out of touch with the proletariat.

[Rawthentic]

GreenWeeTree, what the hell are you smoking? Can I have some? There are socialists and communists all over the world who work with working people in factories and in fields, as well as popular struggles such as the one in Oaxaca.

[TheGreenWeeWee]

SovietPants wrote: I don't feel out of touch with the proletariat. It is impossible for a Marxist-Leninist party to be both legitimate and out of touch with the proletariat.
I don't think it is a question of feeling but, from my limited knowledge, the Leninist has not only been out of touch but has ignored workers for some silly competition with the West and to argue about the superiority of Lenin's brain. I need to read the biography on Lenin by Dmitri Volkogonovbut.

[manic expression]

We're not out-of-touch, we're just small and somewhat unpopular; I think there's a difference.

[TheGreenWeeWee]

hastalavitoria wrote:GreenWeeTree, what the hell are you smoking? Can I have some? There are socialists and communists all over the world who work with working people in factories and in fields, as well as popular struggles such as the one in Oaxaca.

I'm a bogart and I don't share. Aside form the Third World I don't see any overwhelming presence of socialist or communist in the field or factory in advanced capitalist countries. I suppose it is because we have a lot of toys to play with--naw, it's the capitalist propaganda machine and the distrust of Socialist/communist thought and its every man and women for themselves when it comes to taking care of their families. The workers I've been in contact over the years (which spans three states) know they are exploited and then believe the capitalist has earned his wealth. No matter where I am at it is the same thinking. Sometimes I am amazed that there is argument over Liberalism and Conservatism. Workers blame each other over wages and benefits believing that these things led to plant closings then they will watch the FOX News Network during lunch.:wacko:

The Left is a very small minority here in the U.S. I am the only one in my area with no other within a hundred mile radius--I already checked who may be the closest. It's not easy being the only voice and what give me an advantage is that I don't belong to any political party. That means I am not speaking on behalf of any political entity.

[RNK]

I'd tend to agree. Partially. The mere utterance of the word "Communism" is enough to send many into fits of uncontrolled rage. Though that may be overstating it, the point is the same. Workers in the US have been subjected to over a century of exploitation, division and distraction. There's no doubt that during the Cold War, every other message was about the evils of the "Red Menace", the "Red Dictator" or whatever other communist. When you go through 50 years of being told that communists want to kill you, destroy your family and turn you all into slaves, you develop a sort of deep untrust of it...

We have made headway, however. 15 years after the Cold War, people are starting to wise up. Now, nobody is going to attempt to claim that we can completely revolutionize society within the next 5 years. It's a process, one that we have to work towards uncomromisingly. The current atmosphere is simply a set-back. This is unavoidable.

[Rawthentic]

It is material conditions that determine such things, at least for the most part. The working class' condition over the world is not getting any better, and, along with the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, is slowly but surely becoming class-conscious.

[pandora]

As neo-liberalism and globalization strip the last rights from Indigenous people the world over, Communism, which Marx based partially on his idealized version of Indigenous society presents the clear alternative.

With this model, and its glaringly oppositional defiance to the slavery of factory wages, Central and Southern America are coming alive. I find many in the global North to be unaware of the hope that Marx brings for those who are most oppressed in class struggles.

If things seem meaningless for you perhaps it is because you are too close to the middle class where such issues as bread are less dear, and so your vision is clouded, but when one is with a woman with no milk for her child, the need for immediate change is radical.

The more time you spend amongh the poor in solidarity, the more clear your vision will become sister or brother.

[EwokUtopia]

If you work in a factory in the west, of course they arent running around to join the idealogical bandwagon. Workers in the west are kept largely apathetic by the dumbing effect the omnipresent media has, and content by comparitively high wages to keep them buying. Workers in the west are no model for revolutionaries, and thats no accident. But we are seeing more and more workers who live in lifestyles not gearing them up to be complaicent consumers rising against capitalism.

The left never flourishes in areas of relative prosperity, and as capitalism becomes more and more globalized, the ruling class will seek to geographically divide the underpaid workers from the complaicent consumers who are essentially their buffer that keeps them more-or-less safe from revolutions.

Its a horrible strategy, but it is an effective one.

[EwokUtopia]

Oh, and your also making the assumption that all leftists on this board are Marxists/Communists/Leninists/Maoists.

Yeah, there is an idiotic undertone in alot of posters who are basically in mourning for the USSR, but thats not all of us. I am no Communist (dont get me wrong, I'm no anti-Communist either), nor do I think that Marx was a flawless prophet of the proletariate, so to say. Hell, if I need any 19th century political inspiration, I go to Bakunin, but being as so much has changed in the past century and a half, I look to more and more contemperary leftists like Noam Chomsky, Edward Said or Tariq Ali.

Yeah, the communists can be a bit out of touch (especially the USSR propaganda w00t w00t ones), but since when is this a specifically Communist site?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

"We often react to party labels rather than to the actual proposals which are put before us. This was demonstrated very clearly in a study in which farmers and workers in the United States were interviewed with respect to their voting intentions, their party preferences, and their approval or disapproval of various lines of action. They were found to disapprove of Socialist and Communist parties and candidates, and yet approve of the measures proposed by these parties rather more than those proposed by their more conservative opponents. When it is a question of election, therefore, these people would have voted against the measures which they actually favoured because of their stereotyped view of Socialism." -H.J. Eysenck, Uses and Abuses of Psychology, page 249

[bezdomni]

Hell, if I need any 19th century political inspiration, I go to Bakunin,

I'd imagine it would take a lot of inspiration to "either drive the jews back to Asia or completely eliminate them". ;)

[Rawthentic]

nor do I think that Marx was a flawless prophet of the proletariate
I don't think that anybody suggests otherwise; his theory of revolution and class struggle have proved correct and are expanding into today. Not to mention other theories, but the two aforementioned ones are the most significant.

[TheGreenWeeWee]

CompañeroDeLibertad wrote: They were found to disapprove of Socialist and Communist parties and candidates, and yet approve of the measures proposed by these parties rather more than those proposed by their more conservative opponents.

I do believe you are speaking of reforms in capitalism such as universal health care, free education and various other safety net issues. These reforms actually preserve capitalism. True socialist demands would be the collective ownership of the means of production. The I.W.W. is doing what has to do in raising that sort of awareness on the shop floor and various other places which makes them more in touch with the working class than those who seek to enlighten workers through politics. Is it too sectarian to attack the capitalist on both the economic and political fields?

Pandora wrote: If things seem meaningless for you perhaps it is because you are too close to the middle class where such issues as bread are less dear, and so your vision is clouded, but when one is with a woman with no milk for her child, the need for immediate change is radical.

The poor are never meaningless with me. Any workers who sells his/her labor power are wage slaves. More and more are finding that they can't make ends meet and are forced to find a second job because they are nickled and dimed. I don't fault those who make more money than other workers. A lot of them have to work overtime because the corporation won't hire new employees. It's cheaper than paying out benefits. Most corporations outsource for temp workers. These workers have to share their wage with the temp agency. Don't think for a moment that everthing in the U.S. is all rosey.

EwokUtopia wrote: Oh, and your also making the assumption that all leftists on this board are Marxists/Communists/Leninists/Maoists.

I know there are different beliefs on the board but I just don't understand why a dead horse with its legs in the air is viewed as alive and standing.

Also:Workers in the west are kept largely apathetic by the dumbing effect the omnipresent media has, and content by comparitively high wages to keep them buying. Workers in the west are no model for revolutionaries, and thats no accident. But we are seeing more and more workers who live in lifestyles not gearing them up to be complaicent consumers rising against capitalism.

I don't agree. Not all workers receive high wages. Most live from paycheck to paycheck. Its not wages that keep all workers compliant...its the safety nets which Liberals and socialist demanded and the wise cappie politicians who implemented them to preserve the system and were much better at fighting the "Cold War". We do have a lot of propaganda over the airwaves. A lot of workers here are worried that their jobs will go somewhere else. Others who have taken early retirement to find they had no money at all. They were ripped off. Things are turning around but it going to depend how we present ourselves here in the U.S. That's why I don't wave a red flag, black flag or any flag.

[R_P_A_S]

maybe not so much out of touch with the proletariat. but maybe what I meant was we might be a bit out of touch with the reality... and more caught up in the progaganda and the past, anywhere from "leaders" and armies, etc.

[cenv]

maybe not so much out of touch with the proletariat. but maybe what I meant was we might be a bit out of touch with the reality... and more caught up in the progaganda and the past, anywhere from "leaders" and armies, etc.
You can't make such a generalization about communists and anarchists in general. No doubt there are many "revolutionaries" who are more interested in the October Revolution than working towards a proletarian revolution now, but there are also many dedicated radicals who are fighting for the working class right here and right now.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 04:59 am

maybe not so much out of touch with the proletariat. but maybe what I meant was we might be a bit out of touch with the reality... and more caught up in the progaganda and the past, anywhere from "leaders" and armies, etc.
You can't make such a generalization about communists and anarchists in general. No doubt there are many "revolutionaries" who are more interested in the October Revolution than working towards a proletarian revolution now, but there are also many dedicated radicals who are fighting for the working class right here and right now.
i would like to meet them. can you point out some groups?

[apathy maybe]

Where are you?
http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=31615
Has lots of groups from around the world.

Also, ask around in radical book shops and so on, check out threads in practise, join your union.

[Rawthentic]

From what I've heard RPAS, you're in SoCal near LA? Goddam, you wont have any trouble with finding organizations.

[RebelDog]

I'm going to sound arrogant here but I'm not intending to be. I think it is, to a great degree, the working class who are out of touch with us. Capitalism is not, and never will be, in the class interests of the proletariat. If you you are proletarian and you understand that it is your interests to collectively destroy capitalism and install communism, then your not out of touch. You understand what must be done. Time can pass by as much as it likes, but so long as I am a proletarian in capitalist society the fact will always remain that my labour is being exploited by an idle class who act against my interests everyday. If you can see these class distinctions and realities, you are in touch.

I think, basically, every worker has the capacity to be a revolutionary. We all have different lives and its sometimes very trivial happenings that precipitate one eventually thinking along revolutionary lines, picking up the right book at the right time forinstance. If you can witness workers in a strike you understand how quickly a worker can start thinking along class lines and how their eyes are opened so quickly. When the strike is over and months have past its easy to see the muck of bourgeois ideologic hegemony 'poison' the minds of workers again and keep them where they are. When the material conditions of the working class change, and the bourgeoise lose their grip on ideological hegemony, that is the time when all the propaganda in the world will not stop workers thinking along revolutionary lines.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 03:28 am

Hell, if I need any 19th century political inspiration, I go to Bakunin,

I'd imagine it would take a lot of inspiration to "either drive the jews back to Asia or completely eliminate them". ;)
explain and cite.

[TheGreenWeeWee]

The Dissenter wrote:I'm going to sound arrogant here but I'm not intending to be. I think it is, to a great degree, the working class who are out of touch with us. Capitalism is not, and never will be, in the class interests of the proletariat. If you you are proletarian and you understand that it is your interests to collectively destroy capitalism and install communism, then your not out of touch. You understand what must be done. Time can pass by as much as it likes, but so long as I am a proletarian in capitalist society the fact will always remain that my labour is being exploited by an idle class who act against my interests everyday. If you can see these class distinctions and realities, you are in touch.

Workers won't bite the hand that feeds. They know they are exploited by the capitalist but they don't want to come under a system (pretense socialism) which they proceive as totalitarian, intolerant towards people who are religious, and as bigoted towards certain ethnics groups as Nazi Germany. Why do you think Mexicans come across the border? To work and make a living and not fight the capitalist class. This is true of all Western nation who receive immigrants. What do we but proclaim is vote for us and get free health care and education...? How do you unite people to take hold the means of production when the vast majority here has only a vauge idea on how. Hint--it's not political but it does play a part later on.

Also: I think, basically, every worker has the capacity to be a revolutionary. We all have different lives and its sometimes very trivial happenings that precipitate one eventually thinking along revolutionary lines, picking up the right book at the right time forinstance. If you can witness workers in a strike you understand how quickly a worker can start thinking along class lines and how their eyes are opened so quickly. When the strike is over and months have past its easy to see the muck of bourgeois ideologic hegemony 'poison' the minds of workers again and keep them where they are. When the material conditions of the working class change, and the bourgeoise lose their grip on ideological hegemony, that is the time when all the propaganda in the world will not stop workers thinking along revolutionary lines.

True that every worker could be a revolutionary--I hate that term--but so far the capitalist idelogical hegemodgy works every time though not in every place. Like I wrote above there is too much proceived bigotry towards workers who live lives that are very mainstream in the U.S. Those people would help but they are not comfortable with the current Marxist(?) propaganda that would violate their liberties. Therefore they will stand with their employer and government to maintain their civil liberties which, maybe, most of you would eradicate. I'm not talking about profit making either. The big problem is the alienation of the working class from the Left because of the proceived bigotry.

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by EwokUtopia+March 20, 2007 05:16 am--> (EwokUtopia @ March 20, 2007 05:16 am)
[email protected] 19, 2007 03:28 am

Hell, if I need any 19th century political inspiration, I go to Bakunin,

I'd imagine it would take a lot of inspiration to "either drive the jews back to Asia or completely eliminate them". ;)
explain and cite. [/b]
Bakunin was an anti-semite, plain and simple.

He was also a Slavic nationalist and a huge suck-up to the Tsar.


We should most gladly of all follow Romanov, if Romanov could and would transform himself from a Petersburg Emperor into a National Tsar. We should gladly enroll under his standard because the Russian people still recognizes him and because his strength is concentrated, ready to act, and might become an irresistible strength if only he would give it a popular baptism. We would follow him because he alone could carry out and complete a great, peaceful revolution without shedding one drop of Russian or Slav blood.


A strange thought was then born within me. I suddenly took it into my head to write to you, Sire, and was on the point of starting the letter. It too contained a sort of confession, more vain, more high-flown than the one I am now writing--I was then at liberty and had not yet learned from experience--but it was quite sincere and heartfelt: I confessed my sins; I prayed for forgiveness; then, having made a rather drawn-out and pompous review of the current situation of the Slav peoples, I implored you, Sire, in the name of all oppressed Slavs, to come to their aid, to take them under your mighty protection, to be their savior, their father, and, having proclaimed yourself Tsar of all the Slavs, finally to raise the Slav banner in eastern Europe to the terror of the Germans and all other oppressors and enemies of the Slav race!

A letter written by Bakunin to the Tsar.

This is the same Tsar that made life hell for Jews.


By the Statute Concerning the Jews of 1835, the Pale of Settlement was yet further narrowed down. Jews were excluded from all villages within fifty versts of the western frontier. Synagogues were forbidden to be erected in the vicinity of Churches, a strict censorship was established over all Hebrew books. Later, the Jews were expelled from the towns as well as the villages of the frontier area. Special taxation was imposed on meat killed according to the Jewish fashion, and even on the candles kindled on Friday night.


An action supported by Bakunin.

http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/state...ion/Bakunin.htm (http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/state_and_revolution/Bakunin.htm)

Comrade Bakunin Sez:


Jews are one exploiting sect, one people of leeches, one single devouring parasite closely and intimately bound together not only across national boundaries, but also across all divergences of political opinion ... [Jews have] that mercantile passion which constitutes one of the principle traits of their national character

http://library.flawlesslogic.com/jtr_01.htm

and:


A Jew himself, [Karl] Marx is surrounded—in London and France, but especially in Germany—by a crowd of little Jews, more or less intelligent, stirring up intrigue, troublemakers, as is the case with Jews everywhere. Traders or bankers, literateurs, politicians, correspondents of journals of every shade and opinion, courtiers of literature as well as of finance, with one foot in banking, the other in the socialist movement, and their behind sitting on the daily press of Germany—they have taken over all the newspapers, and you can imagine what a nauseating literature that gives us. And so this whole Jewish world, which constitutes an exploitative sect, a bloodthirsty people, tightly and closely organized not only across state borders but across different political views—this Jewish world is today, to a great extent, at the disposal of Marx on the one hand, and the Rothchilds on the other. I am sure that the Rothchilds appreciate the merits of Marx, and that Marx, for his part, feels an instinctive attraction and deep respect for the Rothchilds.
This may appear strange. What can there be in common between communism and the world of high finance? Ah! It is that Marx's communism seeks the powerful centralization of the state, and where there is centralization of the state there must needs today be a central bank of the state and where such a bank exists, the parasitical nation of the Jews, speculating on the labor of the people, will always find a means of making a living.

Bakunin, quoted by Shlomo Avineri, in Radical Theology, the New Left, and Israel, p. 245-246 [an article in Auschwitz. Beginning of a New Era? Reflections on the Holocaust, edited by Eva Fleishner], KTAV Publishing House, Inc.;


Or have you actually read him?

[TheGreenWeeWee]

There is a lot of bigotry on this board and Jews who want to live as Jews would suffer. Not only them but all those who are fellow workers who have religious views. Those who think they are superior are no better than those on Stormfront.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 10:36 am
So i ask my self are most us caught up in the image the communism gives us through books and propaganda? What is the reality? YES! there's class struggles EVERYWHERE in the world, taking place as I type. but there hasn't been a big victory for communism in years. or ever at that. has there been one?
I don't really understand what you're talking about?

When you say we're out of touch, what do you actually mean? Who are these people who you think are "caught" up in the image of communism? What does that actually mean?


YES! there's class struggles EVERYWHERE in the world, taking place as I type. but there hasn't been a big victory for communism in years. or ever at that. has there been one?

What's your point?


all I'm saying that perhaps are views are a bit clouded by more theory than reality. :( :blink: :unsure:

Are you saying that it's nice in theory but in reality it won't work?


On a side note and something connected with your way of thinking. Basing your knowledge on experience will not lead you to understanding reality. Reason alone is how you understand reality and it is through reason that you should make your conclusions.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 04:17 am
Bakunin was an anti-semite, plain and simple.
You lot keep banding this around but you always fail to explain why we should care?


He was also a Slavic nationalist and a huge suck-up to the Tsar.


We should most gladly of all follow Romanov, if Romanov could and would transform himself from a Petersburg Emperor into a National Tsar. We should gladly enroll under his standard because the Russian people still recognizes him and because his strength is concentrated, ready to act, and might become an irresistible strength if only he would give it a popular baptism. We would follow him because he alone could carry out and complete a great, peaceful revolution without shedding one drop of Russian or Slav blood.

Bakunin was forced to write that letter while under house arrest


Or have you actually read him

Bakunin was an anti-semite. Marx was a racist. Proudhon was a sexist.

Why is any of that relevant to anything?

[manic expression]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 21, 2007 03:17 pm
Bakunin was an anti-semite. Marx was a racist. Proudhon was a sexist.
Here are a few things I dug up on Marx and racism:

http://members.cox.net/smrose7/Marx%20on%20Racism.htm

"In this passage, Marx shows no prejudice to Blacks (“a man of the black race,” “a Negro is a Negro”), but he mocks society’s equation of “Black” and “slave” (“one explanation is as good as another”). He shows how the economic and social relations of emerging capitalism thrust Blacks into slavery (“he only becomes a slave in certain relations”), which produce the dominant ideology that equates being African with being a slave."
http://www.isreview.org/issues/26/roots_of_racism.shtml

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by manic expression+March 21, 2007 05:49 pm--> (manic expression @ March 21, 2007 05:49 pm)
The Anarchist [email protected] 21, 2007 03:17 pm
Bakunin was an anti-semite. Marx was a racist. Proudhon was a sexist.
Here are a few things I dug up on Marx and racism:

http://members.cox.net/smrose7/Marx%20on%20Racism.htm

"In this passage, Marx shows no prejudice to Blacks (“a man of the black race,” “a Negro is a Negro”), but he mocks society’s equation of “Black” and “slave” (“one explanation is as good as another”). He shows how the economic and social relations of emerging capitalism thrust Blacks into slavery (“he only becomes a slave in certain relations”), which produce the dominant ideology that equates being African with being a slave."
http://www.isreview.org/issues/26/roots_of_racism.shtml [/b]
Fine. Still, who cares?

This kind of infantile ad hominem wrangling serves no purpose and it certainly does not justify any argument.

Grow up!

[southernmissfan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 02:32 pm
There is a lot of bigotry on this board and Jews who want to live as Jews would suffer. Not only them but all those who are fellow workers who have religious views. Those who think they are superior are no better than those on Stormfront.
Bigotry? I'm assuming you mean the anti-religious views of the vast majority of RevLeft? While there are obviously differing views on how to minimize or eradicate religion, it's mostly accepted among the left that religion is a reactionary force. If you're looking for bigotry, visit your local church or mosque. And this is not a matter of superiority, the fact is these fairy tale books are not reality. It is religion that promotes superiority, stating that "we" will go to heaven, while "they" will go to hell because they do not follow our specific set of beliefs.

Religion is a set of superstitious fairy tales without material basis, and is used to justify everything from sexism to racism to slavery to nationalism to everything in between. Religion has no place in a progressive society. Revolutionary class-consciousness will not exist as long as religious bullshit is clouding our brains.

I'm assuming you just didn't see the Bakunin quotes and assume that these were statements from members here. Please, explain what you meant.

[KC]

This kind of infantile ad hominem wrangling serves no purpose and it certainly does not justify any argument.

This isn't any more mature than anything else posted on this forum.

[manic expression]

Originally posted by The Anarchist Tension+March 21, 2007 05:26 pm--> (The Anarchist Tension @ March 21, 2007 05:26 pm)
Originally posted by manic [email protected] 21, 2007 05:49 pm

The Anarchist [email protected] 21, 2007 03:17 pm
Bakunin was an anti-semite. Marx was a racist. Proudhon was a sexist.
Here are a few things I dug up on Marx and racism:

http://members.cox.net/smrose7/Marx%20on%20Racism.htm

"In this passage, Marx shows no prejudice to Blacks (“a man of the black race,” “a Negro is a Negro”), but he mocks society’s equation of “Black” and “slave” (“one explanation is as good as another”). He shows how the economic and social relations of emerging capitalism thrust Blacks into slavery (“he only becomes a slave in certain relations”), which produce the dominant ideology that equates being African with being a slave."
http://www.isreview.org/issues/26/roots_of_racism.shtml
Fine. Still, who cares?

This kind of infantile ad hominem wrangling serves no purpose and it certainly does not justify any argument.

Grow up! [/b]
I'm not the one making untrue statements about theorists, and I care about the fact that you did.

By the way, my part in this discussion is done, so don't expect any further responses on this issue.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by manic [email protected] 21, 2007 06:32 pm
By the way, my part in this discussion is done, so don't expect any further responses on this issue.
A great loss there, then :rolleyes:

[Idola Mentis]

"We" are out of touch? Maybe. But if so, with each other, not the chained masses of the world.

I think many leftists are blinded by the stories of the past, yes. They think the dividing lines between worker and capitalist, revolutionary and reactionary, are as clear as in the days of the industrial revolution when the West had one of the strictest and most visible caste systems in the history of civilization.

Modernity is dissolving. Our classes are rapidly blending, changing and reinventing themselves. The ultra-rich who really rule the world today does not belong to any particular social class. For one thing, there's too few of them too thinly spread out to make a class. The old and new rich of the industrial age wouldn't know what to make of them at all. They are separated from us only by their immense wealth, their ability to decide the fate of millions. They came into this position by being in the right spot in the spider's web at the right time, not by being born into or working their way into a capitalist caste. As someone described them - "business nerds". Very, *very* good at making money, useless at anything else.

I can't speak for the situation other places, as I have no details. But here in Norway, even infoworkers - people whose means of production are their heads, and who used to be first in line for recruitment to the capitalist elite - are getting squeezed to the limit. And we're getting it from a nominally socialist government. Made to live in lifelong debt, from payday to payday, with the threat of having our lives thoroughly disrupted if we do not deliver. Not that great a threat at first glance, I know. We have the highest quality of life in the world. Wonderful. But it comes at the price of individual economical indenture to the descendants of the old noblity, the danish colonists and industrial lords who built our infrastructure. That's the second glance; mandatory complicity in the global system of slavery. Serve this system, or be invisible.

This is a great failure of socialist democracy, as well as democratic socialism. The state can't stand up to the threat of economic violence, and are thus hog-tied by unequal "contracts" with domestic and foreign capital, ending up as nothing more than a servant of predatory capitalism, trying to soften the blows where it can.

If the trend continues, soon *everyone* will be servants. Even the very rich. This seems to be the cut-price utopia the social democrats are going for. The systems which makes things happen in the world already operate by their own internal mechanisms, and need little maintenance or justification. Some sort of change is needed, and will probably come sooner or later. But what seems to be foremost on everyone's mind, even the reactionaries, nazis and cappie-puppets, is who they'd have up against the wall come the revolution, and in what order.

Fuck that - I'm an anarchist, and yes, if I thought the Glorious People's Revolution might decide I needed to be reeducated in a nice little camp somewhere, I'd hit the highlands with a rifle faster than you can spell "gulag". But until that happens, anyone who wants real change leftward is my dearest friend.

So I think it's a good idea to stop fighting over who gets to join the revolution, because when it comes, for real, no one here's going to be at the door selling tickets. And it would be a good idea to make some real plans - for the future, not for how things should have gone in the past - because when there's a revolution, the guys with good plans tends to come out on top. And - another good idea, I'm just full of them today - to shake up the old theory-maps and fit them to the landscape, rather than interpreting the landscape until it fits the map of 1848.

Then maybe that nagging feeling of being out of touch will go away. I hope. What do you think?

[TheGreenWeeWee]

southernmissfan wrote:Bigotry? I'm assuming you mean the anti-religious views of the vast majority of RevLeft? While there are obviously differing views on how to minimize or eradicate religion, it's mostly accepted among the left that religion is a reactionary force. If you're looking for bigotry, visit your local church or mosque. And this is not a matter of superiority, the fact is these fairy tale books are not reality. It is religion that promotes superiority, stating that "we" will go to heaven, while "they" will go to hell because they do not follow our specific set of beliefs.

People have a right to hold anti-religious views and I never wrote anything to suggest otherwise. On the other hand, what gives you or anyone else the right to dictate to anyone what they can or cannot believe? This is bigotry and intolerance to think that you can force people to do thing they don't want to do. I've been in synagoge and churches and what they teach, say or do is not yours or mine to worry about. They have the right to hold those views as much as atheist have a right to hold their view. The rights and liberties of all people should be maintained along with the separation of church and state. Especially in a socialist state where people will follow their own course with no intimidation.

Also:Religion is a set of superstitious fairy tales without material basis, and is used to justify everything from sexism to racism to slavery to nationalism to everything in between. Religion has no place in a progressive society. Revolutionary class-consciousness will not exist as long as religious bullshit is clouding our brains.

Correction...material conditions led to the formation of religions. People don't have to be religious to be racist, sexist or have nationalist views because there is a lot atheist who hold those views whereas there are a lot of religious folk who are not racist, sexist, nationalist, or harbor any sort ill will towards any one. Incidently, there are atheist over on Stormfront. Again, people have the right to a "clouded brain" if they so chose. Class-consciousness will come when the people realise that they have been running the means of production all along. Socialism is about work and public ownership of production and distribution. What people do with their private lives or who they meet with for religious ceremonies is not anyones business. The Left will stay out of touch with most workers for a long time perhaps because they have chosen to do so by association.

Furthermore:I'm assuming you just didn't see the Bakunin quotes and assume that these were statements from members here. Please, explain what you meant.

Jews who live as Jews are religious and they won't give that up. Nazi Germany proved that. Bakunin has nothing to do with it.

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by The Anarchist Tension+March 21, 2007 03:17 pm--> (The Anarchist Tension @ March 21, 2007 03:17 pm)
[email protected] 21, 2007 04:17 am
Bakunin was an anti-semite, plain and simple.
You lot keep banding this around but you always fail to explain why we should care?


He was also a Slavic nationalist and a huge suck-up to the Tsar.


We should most gladly of all follow Romanov, if Romanov could and would transform himself from a Petersburg Emperor into a National Tsar. We should gladly enroll under his standard because the Russian people still recognizes him and because his strength is concentrated, ready to act, and might become an irresistible strength if only he would give it a popular baptism. We would follow him because he alone could carry out and complete a great, peaceful revolution without shedding one drop of Russian or Slav blood.

Bakunin was forced to write that letter while under house arrest


Or have you actually read him

Bakunin was an anti-semite. Marx was a racist. Proudhon was a sexist.

Why is any of that relevant to anything? [/b]
I really don't care, I just think it is funny when people think of Bakunin as an anarchist in the modern sense. Bakunin is a dinosaur, I don't know why some anarchists look to him so much. There are much more coherent anarchist criticisms of Marxism than Bakunin's, and anarchists like Guy Debord are way more relevent to today.

Bakunin may have laid many of the bases for future anarchists, but I find him to be quite useless...even from an anarchist perspective.