why aren't communist patriotic?

[R_P_A_S]

obviously communism wants to abolish the state. so yeah I can see why that wouldn't make sense.
communist see the state as an oppressor of the people. am I right?

so basically being Patriotic it's being supportive of the country, its borders, its flag, president, government and such...correct?

also I remember reading, and also agreeing with some of you when you told me that Nationalism creates a sense of superiority towards other countries and races. etc..

I take it socialist feel the same way?

can you guys give me MORE example why we opposed patriotism or support this attitude?

[apathy maybe]

The number one reason all leftists should oppose patriotism is because we are internationalists.

As such, supporting one country (or nation) over another is antithetical to what we believe.

We (generally) think that class is more important then nationality or race (which doesn't exist).

We think it is stupid to be proud of a country which you had no choice in being born into.

What you say about nationalism creating a sense of superiority, is also correct.

[Raúl Duke]

Another reason is because the elite uses nationalism and patriotism to push their agenda to the workers so they would do it for them (go to war,etc.)

SO, communists see the need to oppse nationalism so to spread class conscious instead.

[which doctor]

Nationalism and patriotism are often encouraged amongst the bourgeoisie because nationalism and patriotism further divide the international working-class, much like racism divides the multi-racial working-class.

The proletariat has no country.

[*PRC*Kensei]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 09:10 am
obviously communism wants to abolish the state. so yeah I can see why that wouldn't make sense.
communist see the state as an oppressor of the people. am I right?

so basically being Patriotic it's being supportive of the country, its borders, its flag, president, government and such...correct?

also I remember reading, and also agreeing with some of you when you told me that Nationalism creates a sense of superiority towards other countries and races. etc..

I take it socialist feel the same way?

can you guys give me MORE example why we opposed patriotism or support this attitude?
Meeehhh...

'communists see the state as oppressors of the people'

.. that MIGHT be true in somekind of way..but we see the COMPANY'S a LOT more as oppressors..

We fight capitalism mainly.. capitalism...capital...company's...

Note that many communists / socialists turned to the state for support & believed in a strong state. (i'm talking about soclialist/communist country's atm).

I think the state (a socialist state) is our friend AT THE MOMENT compared to other institutions..
However there will no-doubt be a lot of anarchists who will cry the opposite..

[ComradeOm]

That&#39;s some learning curve that you&#39;re still on R_P_A_S <_<

"True patriotism seeks the welfare of each in the happiness of all"
Connolly

[( R )evolution]

Originally posted by *PRC*[email protected] 14, 2007 12:13 pm




I think the state (a socialist state) is our friend AT THE MOMENT compared to other institutions..
However there will no-doubt be a lot of anarchists who will cry the opposite..

&#39;communists see the state as oppressors of the people&#39;

.. that MIGHT be true in somekind of way..but we see the COMPANY&#39;S a LOT more as oppressors..

But the companys and the bourgeois rule the government (state) so natural we seek to destroy it, as any hand of the bourgeoisie is a oppressor.


Note that many communists / socialists turned to the state for support & believed in a strong state. (i&#39;m talking about soclialist/communist country&#39;s atm).

I don&#39;t know what you exctaly mean by this but there has never been a communist "country"


I think the state (a socialist state) is our friend AT THE MOMENT compared to other institutions..
However there will no-doubt be a lot of anarchists who will cry the opposite..

But most of the world is not socialist. Much of the world is dominant by western powers. I think you mean rather that leftist based governments (or left leaning governments) are better for us. Because there is very few, if any, true socialist country and most of them are dominant by western powers. (Except maybe Velnzulea who is moving towards socialism)

Nationalism is good if it is used to rally worker conscious and support for the revolution (within ones own country, not worldwide) If the workers can use nationalism to gather full on support from the workers than I personal think that we support that. But Nationalism usually only leads to the division of the worker. And as others have said, Nationalism has been used many times been used to push ruling class agendas. It is used to gather support for wars, the break down of civil rights, and overall oppression.

[Pilar]

The internationalist answer above says it all.

But any Revolution will probably include some early patriotism and singing of songs and waving of banners.

Also, one can be patriotic AND not support a country&#39;s current president or parliament. Patriotism appeals to one&#39;s love of country. Where there is no country, there is no patriotism. Marxism argues all workers are joined in a common bond, and this goes beyond the borders of the United States, or Spain, or Japan.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 12:53 pm
That&#39;s some learning curve that you&#39;re still on R_P_A_S <_<

"True patriotism seeks the welfare of each in the happiness of all"
Connolly
LOL.. i admit My brain is very slow. is like some days i remember and some days i blank out. or i cant generate my own answers. even though i know them in the back of my mind. its probably from getting hit in the head

[( R )evolution]

Yeah, you are still new RPAS dont worry you will grasp everything. Once you get your head around everything you will see that everything is connected. Fucking everything is connected to class struggle. Keep asking questions, don&#39;t worry we are all happy to answer them :) Some of your questions are interesting so please don&#39;t stop. Next time your in San Diego, hit me up.

[Cryotank Screams]

See the link in my sig, titled &#39;Vaterland&#39; for a good essay on the subject.

[Ander]

I think it&#39;s fine to be proud of some aspects of your country. For example, I am proud that my country provides free healthcare and education to its population. As opposed to the US for example, where the healthcare system is really something else..

Ok, well maybe proud isn&#39;t the right word.

[Janus]

can you guys give me MORE example why we opposed patriotism or support this attitude?
Nationalism (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=58297&hl=nationalism)
Nationalism (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=59730&hl=nationalism)
Nationalism (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=61399&hl=nationalism)
Nationalism (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=63238&hl=nationalism)


I take it socialist feel the same way?
Some but not all like democratic socialists for instance.

[Sadena Meti]

Be patriotic to the species, not the country. Patriot to Humanity.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

Comrade RPAS,


Here is the Maoist position on patriotism:


Can a Communist, who is an internationalist, at the same time be a patriot? We hold that he not only can be but also must be. The specific content of patriotism is determined by historical conditions. There is the "patriotism" of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler, and there is our patriotism. Communists must resolutely oppose the "patriotism" of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler. The Communists of Japan and Germany are defeatists with regard to the wars being waged by their countries. To bring about the defeat of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler by every possible means is in the interests of the Japanese and the German people, and the more complete the defeat the better.... For the wars launched by the Japanese aggressors and Hitler are harming the people at home as well as the people of the world. China&#39;s case, however, is different, because she is the victim of aggression. Chinese Communists must therefore combine patriotism with internationalism. We are at once internationalists and patriots, and our slogan is, "Fight to defend the motherland against the aggressors." For us defeatism is a crime and to strive for victory in the War of Resistance is an inescapable duty. For only by fighting in defense of the motherland can we defeat the aggressors and achieve national liberation. And only by achieving national liberation will it be possible for the proletariat and other working people to achieve their own emancipation. The victory of China and the defeat of the invading imperialists will help the people of other countries. Thus in wars of national liberation patriotism is applied internationalism.


"The Role of the Chinese Communist Party in the National War" (October 1938), Selected Works, Vol. II, p. 196


In other words, comrade, patriotism can be a revolutionary force when applied to the anti-imperialist struggle.

You could say that the patriotism of imperialists is reactionary, and the patriotism of oppressed nations is revolutionary.

[R_P_A_S]

well im proud of my culture and heritage growing up in Mexico. we have a lot to be proud of from the Aztecs, Mayans, To Zapata and Villa they fought against tyrants and for the peasants&#33;

But i dont support the nationalism from the mexican capitalist and bourgeoisie. does that make sense?

[Vladislav]

Hahaha this thread reminds me of my introduction thread. This was when I hardly new shit about communism and when I use to call everyone comrade.Plus I was totally into the smiley bullshit. I can&#39;t believe I didn&#39;t get banned for my shit intro. Thanks to the revleft peeps for giving me a chance. Oh well, my views have changed significantly and I&#39;m certainly not a patriot of any country.

Check it out (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=45180&hl=patriot)

[BobKKKindle$]

I think it should be noted that patriotism is a profoundly irrational phenomenon. Our nationality is something over which we have no control and is essentially an arbitrary part of our identity that is determined by the family in to which we are born. Of course, it is sometimes the case that certain values or institutions are synonomous with the boundaries of a particular state and this may be a reason to call for the defence of one&#39;s state against an agressor or to feel a sense of solidarity with those of the same nationality - but patriotism simply on the basis of nationality alone is something that socialists should be in direct opposition to.

Workers are often attracted to patriotism because it gives them a sense of collective identity under an economic system where they normally feel a deep alienation from their fellow humans and and an absence of purpose and meaning in their lives. In addition, nationalist ideology often suggests that those belonging to other countries are responsible for social tensions and economics problems, which provides an explanation and an easy scapegoat for the problems that workers face.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by ( R )[email protected] 14, 2007 05:55 pm
Yeah, you are still new RPAS dont worry you will grasp everything.
Its been a year. By this stage somethings should be clicking together.

[RNK]

It&#39;s natural for one culture, when faced with the oppressive end of nationalism and "patriotism" to develop a patriotic culture of their own. IMO.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by ComradeOm+March 15, 2007 06:29 pm--> (ComradeOm @ March 15, 2007 06:29 pm)
( R )[email protected] 14, 2007 05:55 pm
Yeah, you are still new RPAS dont worry you will grasp everything.
Its been a year. By this stage somethings should be clicking together. [/b]
stop picking on me... this shit hit me like a ton of bricks.. and im trying to look for the pieces.
and its been 10 months not a year&#33; :P

[SPK]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 02:28 pm
stop picking on me... this shit hit me like a ton of bricks.. and im trying to look for the pieces.
and its been 10 months not a year&#33; :P
RPAS, you&#39;re asking intelligent questions and thinking critically about what you&#39;re reading -- which is definitely the best way to do it. I&#39;ve been studying Marxism for almost two decades, and there is always something new to learn.

Disregard any of the delightful individuals on this board who suggest otherwise.

:)

[Pilar]

well im proud of my culture and heritage growing up in Mexico. we have a lot to be proud of from the Aztecs, Mayans, To Zapata and Villa they fought against tyrants and for the peasants&#33;

But i dont support the nationalism from the mexican capitalist and bourgeoisie. does that make sense?

This is a crack up&#33; You&#39;re proud of being a part of the Aztec culture that waged war and slavery on millions through their conquest and empire, but don&#39;t support the current Mexican government which does the same to its people, especially in the southern parts of the country.

Yes, there is always the "good" exploitation, and the "bad" exploitation.

I suppose 500 years from now, the current Mexican government will be as nobel as the Aztecs are today.

:rolleyes: