FBI trying to start Anarchist-Leninist war

[Ezekiel]

A few years ago the NYC Revolution Books was vandalized, with graffiti warning 'next time there will be a bomb.' Signed 'RAAN' (Red and Anarchist Action Network.) A moderator on the RAAN website said that they were unaware of any RAAN members in New York.
Later the Boston Revolution Books had a similar kind of vandalism, also signed RAAN. In the past, most attacks have been from neo-nazi skinheads.
Could have been a RAAN follower, but this is definitely the kind of COINTELPRO activity of the 60's, where the FBI would try to use disagreements within groups or between groups to foment violence between anti-capitalist and revolutionary groups.
If it was indeed an anarchist, I can't understand why they would take a small group of Maoists as the principal enemy, instead of the imperialist system.
RAAN does not claim to have or have not done it, and the organization is very autonomous, so it could easily be either the work of a supporter acting in their name, or a group of RAANistas. But RAAN does not take credit for it, and on their forum, most of the RAANistas opposed the action.
But still, attacking a bookstore as the road to liberation? Or agent provacateur?
(If it was RAAN, then I apologize for giving the FBI credit for it.)

The other case is a bit more omimous. Last January, I got a phone call in the middle of the night from a friend of mine, who frantically told me 'Zach's been arrested! They say he tried to blow up a building in California!'
So I looked up what news I could find on it. He was allegedly part of a ELF cell with an undercover FBI agent (Anna), and amongst the targets listed in the news, "communist party offices." This seemed odd to me since I knew two of the three 'terrorists,' one of which since early childhood, and I am quite communistic. My first intention was to kick his ass when he got out, but after further investigation, it was revealed how much the FBI was trying not only to get these guys to blow stuff up, but to attack other leftist groups to start a war.
The FBI agent had to really ride the cell's ass to get them to want to carry on with her plans, and according to FBI documents, the cell was "was too lazy to plan anything larger than a vegan meal." The secretly recorded tapes show that the agent had to repeatedly pressure the anarchists "to study bomb-making chemistry, at one point complaining that "you guys change your mind a lot" and "it seems like you guys don't want to do it at all.""
Now I realize that there are a few anarchists that have the 'if youre not us youre against us' mentality, but these are a slim minority.
In one of my conversations with Zach Jensen, one of the 'terrorists,' he expressed a sort of despair about bringing change in the US because 'we cant fight a civil war against Republicans.' (I think we can, but that's another story.) It seemed an odd move from not wanting to fight a war against belligerent pro-imperialists to wanting to bomb anyone who didn't agree with him. Which is where the FBI came in.
The FBI made the plans, got the instructions to make bombs, rented the house, provided the car, provided the money for the operation, and encouraged them to get on with it when they didn't want to go through with it.
It was a clear case of entrappment, and there is good chance they'll get off in the trial.
But it is very illuminating that the FBI here is proven to be trying to foment a war between various factions of the radical left. COINTELPRO is back.

Is anyone aware of any other similar cases?

This is the FBI agent, "Anna." She has worked on at least twelve "anarchist cases." She is not believed to be doing any more undercover work, since she's been outed, but still, be careful. Keep an eye out. more info on the agent (http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/01/332735.shtml)
http://media.portland.indymedia.org/images/2006/01/332736.jpg

[Raúl Duke]

Somehow the FBI seems to at least have some brains.
They use RAAN as a scapegoat to start this war because of their anti-leninist stance. Maybe this infiltration stuff is getting bigger because possibly, the left is actully growing;yet. I can't tell because the bourgeosie media keeps it silent. "Out of sight, Out of mind". I mean, I don't really know if the left is actually getting bigger or not....

If it is growing, making there to seem more discord in the left makes the left unatrractive to people who are slowly sympathizing with socialism.


The FBI agent had to really ride the cell's ass to get them to want to carry on with her plans, and according to FBI documents, the cell was "was too lazy to plan anything larger than a vegan meal." The secretly recorded tapes show that the agent had to repeatedly pressure the anarchists "to study bomb-making chemistry, at one point complaining that "you guys change your mind a lot" and "it seems like you guys don't want to do it at all.""

SO you are telling me that they all succumb to peer pressure from one person?? :blink:

Is there a lot of "groupthink" in anarchist cells?

Also, why didn't the other memebers at least question the implication of such actions, etc?

Anarchists should at least think of what they are doing, not let some "encoragment" from the FBI or a FBI mole affect their thinking. I mean, I do sympathize with them; yet, it seems that by acting like followers instead of free thinking individuals got them into the mess deeper. (however, I might be wrong, since the report is only the gist of the story.)

[VukBZ2005]

1.) Yes, even though the main programs of the United States government against the "left" in the 1960's are not in official operation, the activities that are being undertaken against the "left", are in some sense, still there, but in a non-visual fashion, as opposed to a visual fashion. Otherwise, how can we explain the arrest of Mr. Austin or the Panther eight?

2.) In my view, the actions that are being undertaken against the RAAN, if this is really an FBI action, are stupid. And the reason why I say that is because there is no real point in the FBI's attempts to "start a war" between "leftists", due to the fact that there is no real unity between these groups, that there will be no real unity between these groups and such an alliance would just be rife with irrationalites beyond normal human understanding and comprehension. It just shows how fucking paranoid the Federal Bureau of Investigation really is and how clueless they are to the theoretical operations of the "left".

That being said, it is also a warning; it is time to resolve our theoretical differences, unite under a new theoretical movement that would absorb what is good and get rid of the crap that is not good, because quite obviously, having us being stuck in this rut is stopping us from getting certain objectives accomplished.

[Raúl Duke]

it is time to resolve our theoretical differences, unite under a new theoretical movement that would absorb what is good and get rid of the crap that is not good, because quite obviously, having us being stuck in this rut is stopping us from getting certain objectives accomplished.

Reminds me of what RedStar2K said about the convergence of Marxism and Anarchism. Than again, Red said that RAAN was close to his view of a convergence except for their inclusions of animal rights into their principles among other things.

[Psy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 07:06 am
The FBI made the plans, got the instructions to make bombs, rented the house, provided the car, provided the money for the operation, and encouraged them to get on with it when they didn't want to go through with it.
Didn't anyone question where the funds were coming from? Wasn't there any discussion of the budget of the organization and someone raise their hands over where the fuck did all the extra cash come from?

If they didn't want to go through with it why didn't they just get rid of the member (FBI mole)?

[KC]

I highly doubt the FBI would consider RAAN enough of a threat to do something like that. Nobody else does, so why would the FBI?

[manic expression]

Originally posted by Zampanò@March 14, 2007 03:59 pm
I highly doubt the FBI would consider RAAN enough of a threat to do something like that. Nobody else does, so why would the FBI?
The FBI and other authorities considered a bunch of Hollywood comedy writers enough of a threat to ruin their lives back in the 50's, so you never know.

[dbzfanl]

I suppose this happened like the mental comprisal of a rioting group. Let me explain:

Someone causes anger in a group of people against another group or individual. The party of people forms. They start thinking in a group, rather than individually- a very harsh sacrifice. They lose all sense of reality until a tragedy happens, like the arresting of your friend, or like the riot in Children of the Mind (Ender series by Orson Scott Card). Hindsight kicks in and everyone realizes what they did.

Bascially, I would place a bet on the fact no one realized what they did while they were doing it. It's what we leftists need to be afraid of- a revolutionary that causes a rioting group.

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 10:12 am
I suppose this happened like the mental comprisal of a rioting group. Let me explain:

Someone causes anger in a group of people against another group or individual. The party of people forms. They start thinking in a group, rather than individually- a very harsh sacrifice. They lose all sense of reality until a tragedy happens, like the arresting of your friend, or like the riot in Children of the Mind (Ender series by Orson Scott Card). Hindsight kicks in and everyone realizes what they did.

Bascially, I would place a bet on the fact no one realized what they did while they were doing it. It's what we leftists need to be afraid of- a revolutionary that causes a rioting group.
These activists arrested for this action seem to be very immature about there politic, and about what they stand for, seeing as one of them snitched, and the rest were so impressionable to get led around on a dog leash.

[FOREVER LEFT]

Is that tatto on Anna for real? They go to great lengths to go undercover!
Bastards!

[Nachie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 07:06 am
A moderator on the RAAN website said that they were unaware of any RAAN members in New York.
duh. it was probably somebody travelling through or just some folks who didn't want their existence to be public knowledge. it is not uncommon for us to find out about RAAN groups or affiliates who hadn't previously contacted "us" through the internet, via their actions.


In the past, most attacks have been from neo-nazi skinheads.
therefore, clearly RAAN are a bunch of nazis.


If it was indeed an anarchist, I can't understand why they would take a small group of Maoists as the principal enemy, instead of the imperialist system.
Consider that it may not have been "an anarchist" at all, but probably Marxists who are fucking sick and tired of Leninism, of which there are many in RAAN. Remember that the vandalism at the NYC bookstore also said something to the effect of "bolshevism is not real communism". You left that part out.

Strategically speaking, it is important to draw certain lines in the sand so that the possibility will even exist of becoming radical enough to attack something like the "imperialist system". Exclusion of Leninists is one such line.

To say that the people who did the action(s) "take a small group of Maoists as the principal enemy" is your own random extrapolation.


RAAN does not claim to have or have not done it,
yes it does!


and the organization is very autonomous,
yes, it is.


so it could easily be either the work of a supporter acting in their name, or a group of RAANistas.
exactly. what's the difference?


But RAAN does not take credit for it,
yes it does!


and on their forum, most of the RAANistas opposed the action.
no, they didn't! the action was within RAAN's principles and therefore the autonomy of those who carried it out was defended, sometimes with criticism, always with respect.

as per RAAN's "no bullshit policy", we criticize each other's actions (assuming they are within the principles and CAN be considered valid actions) by just doing other things that we think are more interesting.


(If it was RAAN, then I apologize for giving the FBI credit for it.)
the RCP has already cried COINTELPRO a million times about this. fuck them.


stuff about Operation Backfire and the Auburn, CA arrests
What does any of this stuff have to do with anarchists vs. Leninists? you didn't even bring up that allegedy, the group snitched on by Anna had been "planning to firebomb a CPUSA office", or at least looking at one as a possible target. I would think you would at least bring this up, since it's the only relevant piece of information in the entire case.

Frankly I think it would have been awesome if the ELF had firebombed the CP at some point, it would have represented a significant advancement in the ELF's praxis. I also don't discount the probability that this "target" was planted purposefully by Anna.

THE FBI DOESN'T HAVE TO START A WAR BETWEEN ANARCHISTS AND LENINOIDS, THE LATTER HAVE BEEN KILLING THE FORMER FOR A DAMN CENTURY. (and vice-versa, but not often enough!)

Also to answer the person above, that is not a tattoo on Anna's neck, it's just a scrunchy choker.

PS. to Johnny Darko: RAAN is opposed to the concept of "animal rights". We do have a section in our founding principles discussing "animal liberation [not rights!] and veganism", which elaborates our positions in relation to these topics, and does NOT mean an ironclad "inclusion" of them. But this is a topic that has been covered before...

[Ezekiel]

My apologies.

[Raúl Duke]

I suppose this happened like the mental comprisal of a rioting group. Let me explain:

Someone causes anger in a group of people against another group or individual. The party of people forms. They start thinking in a group, rather than individually- a very harsh sacrifice. They lose all sense of reality until a tragedy happens, like the arresting of your friend, or like the riot in Children of the Mind (Ender series by Orson Scott Card). Hindsight kicks in and everyone realizes what they did.

Bascially, I would place a bet on the fact no one realized what they did while they were doing it. It's what we leftists need to be afraid of- a revolutionary that causes a rioting group.


These activists arrested for this action seem to be very immature about there politic, and about what they stand for, seeing as one of them snitched, and the rest were so impressionable to get led around on a dog leash.

Thanks for this replies, which somewhat answered this:
From me:

SO you are telling me that they all succumb to peer pressure from one person??

Is there a lot of "groupthink" in anarchist cells?

Also, why didn't the other memebers at least question the implication of such actions, etc?

Anarchists should at least think of what they are doing, not let some "encoragment" from the FBI or a FBI mole affect their thinking. I mean, I do sympathize with them; yet, it seems that by acting like followers instead of free thinking individuals got them into the mess deeper. (however, I might be wrong, since the report is only the gist of the story.)


PS. to Johnny Darko: RAAN is opposed to the concept of "animal rights". We do have a section in our founding principles discussing "animal liberation [not rights!] and veganism", which elaborates our positions in relation to these topics, and does NOT mean an ironclad "inclusion" of them. But this is a topic that has been covered before...

I know it must have been covered before, but when I mention animal rights (as a mistake, I knew that it is animal liberation) in a sentence I was talking about what RedStar2k thought of RAAN. I myself wouldn't mind working/have nothing against with vegetarians and vegans. Nor would I have anything against an organization that discusses animal liberation (and rights, if they ever discuss it...) as long as they also work for other causes I'm mostly interested in.

[Ezekiel]

SO you are telling me that they all succumb to peer pressure from one person?? blink.gif

Is there a lot of "groupthink" in anarchist cells?
Well, when it's only four people, groupthink will inevitably emerge in some form. Being anarchist has little to do with it.

Didn't anyone question where the funds were coming from? Wasn't there any discussion of the budget of the organization and someone raise their hands over where the fuck did all the extra cash come from?
It's not really that simple. I'm sure they thought of some cover as to where the money was coming from. It's not like 'hey guys, I found $4,000 on the street. Wanna make a bomb?'


If they didn't want to go through with it why didn't they just get rid of the member (FBI mole)?
Well, it's more complicated than that.

I highly doubt the FBI would consider RAAN enough of a threat to do something like that.
It's not that they are a threat to capitalism, it's that they need a feud between anarchists and other leftists. And anarchism is becoming a nuisance, not quite a threat, but a nuisance to the system. Seattle 99.

Bascially, I would place a bet on the fact no one realized what they did while they were doing it. It's what we leftists need to be afraid of- a revolutionary that causes a rioting group.
While I am not opposed to all forms of rioting, it is a classic agent provacateur act to start riots to get all the revolutionaries arrested.

These activists arrested for this action seem to be very immature about there politic, and about what they stand for, seeing as one of them snitched, and the rest were so impressionable to get led around on a dog leash.
While I spent hours arguing with two of them about their politics, I don't think the term 'immature' would be the correct one. I won't comment further on it, since the trial isn't over yet.
Zach I know was impressionable, he always had been. That's one of the things the FBI looks for when setting up FBI-run cells. They also train agents in things like psych profiling, ways to establish dominance, etc.



THE FBI DOESN'T HAVE TO START A WAR BETWEEN ANARCHISTS AND LENINOIDS, THE LATTER HAVE BEEN KILLING THE FORMER FOR A DAMN CENTURY. (and vice-versa, but not often enough!)
The Spanish Civil War was over a long time ago. Part of the reason for the FBI's attempt to incite violent conflict is because there actually is no war. Arguments on the internet do not count as war.
You can't honestly claim that bomb threats at a bookstore is seriously an act of defense against Leninist aggression.

And to others wondering how someone could be so easily led into something like that - It's pretty simple. Within a lot of anarchist circles, there are those who believe (or at least act like) Leninism is the main enemy, and are more interested in re-enacting the Spanish Civil War than doing anything about capitalism. All the FBI needs to do is get near these people, and encourage them, like in the Auburn CA case of Operation Green Scare, and eventually you will get them thinking that by bombing a communist office they are noble freedom fighters resisting tyranny.

What does any of this stuff have to do with anarchists vs. Leninists? you didn't even bring up that allegedy, the group snitched on by Anna had been "planning to firebomb a CPUSA office", or at least looking at one as a possible target. I would think you would at least bring this up, since it's the only relevant piece of information in the entire case.
I did. Read it again.


therefore, clearly RAAN are a bunch of nazis.
No, just some people in RAAN and Nazis both believe in the same brown shirt tactics. How libertarian to threaten to bomb a bookstore for distributing books you don't like. I'd hate to see how society would be if these type of people took over.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Ezekial
Within a lot of anarchist circles, there are those who believe (or at least act like) Leninism is the main enemy, and are more interested in re-enacting the Spanish Civil War than doing anything about capitalism

I've never seen, heard, or read about anyone like this, evidence please.

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by black rose+March 15, 2007 03:03 pm--> (black rose @ March 15, 2007 03:03 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected]
Within a lot of anarchist circles, there are those who believe (or at least act like) Leninism is the main enemy, and are more interested in re-enacting the Spanish Civil War than doing anything about capitalism

I've never seen, heard, or read about anyone like this, evidence please.[/b]

black rose
evidence please.


Evidence 1 (http://redanarchist.org/propaganda/fucklenin.pdf)

Evidence 2 (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=61996&view=findpost&p=1292255485)

[Black Dagger]

Like i said, i've never seen, heard, or read about anyone who believes or acts like leninism is the main enemy... your 'evidence' does not show that such people exist; rather that some marxists and anarchists reject/oppose leninism.

Opposing leninism (and vigorously at that) is not the same as acting or regarding leninism as the 'main enemy' - its quite apparent that neither the people who published that .pdf or TAT prioritise their opposition to leninism over their opposition to capitalism and the state - that is what you need to... but will not be able to prove.

[ComradeRed]

Originally posted by Zampanò@March 14, 2007 07:59 am
I highly doubt the FBI would consider RAAN enough of a threat to do something like that. Nobody else does, so why would the FBI?
I would think it's a precautionary move. You don't want to wait until the RAAN becomes possibly unstoppable, or at least as it would appear to the FBI.

And think about it. If you're an FBI nerd searching the internet all day, you would come across the RAAN and say to yourself "Huh this looks troubling."

I think it's pretty convincing that, considering there is no RAAN members in New York, someone is trying to "discredit" them.

Perhaps it's the government, perhaps it's some rightwing organization. I don't know.

There just simply isn't enough on the table at the moment to say.

[Entrails Konfetti]

I really don't see a direct connection between RAAN and Anna.

Because its such a small-world after all was this the same Zack guy as former rev-lefter Zackaria/ Novemba?

[Whitten]

What do you mean, trying? RAAN is openly at war with Leninism.

[Louis Pio]

What do you mean, trying? RAAN is openly at war with Leninism.

Hmm that plus at war with reason, class struggle and anyone trying to do any serious political work. Why do this internet group keep popping up? All they do is tag a bit, make some threats and so on. Not really a group anyone should be scared of and im sure the FBI ain't. However considering their lack of structure the FBI could of course use RAAN as unconscious idiots with the intent of wrecking havoc in the "left mileu" of the USA.

[The Grey Blur]

It only struck me now how flawed the whole RAAN "autonomous" structure is in regards to state infiltration. I'm not saying they are (at the moment), I'm just saying this thread has made me realise that. Interesting.

[Whitten]

Yes, they have an almost "cell" like structure, although with even less centralisation. While such a structure has some advantages when it comes to limiting the effectivness of infiltration (its influences can only effect the infiltrated cell), it has the related disadvantage that its far easier for an infiltrator to gain influence within any individual cell. And the completly autonomous system of action means that they are free to take counter-productive actions such as is being suggested.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Permanent [email protected] 15, 2007 03:01 pm
It only struck me now how flawed the whole RAAN "autonomous" structure is in regards to state infiltration. I'm not saying they are (at the moment), I'm just saying this thread has made me realise that. Interesting.
All oppositional structures are prone to infiltration or exploitation by our enemies. Some with more flexibility may lend themselves to easier infiltration, but ultimately when we come up against the state, we are going to be infiltrated. Period.

The only thing that strikes me in this thread is the absurdity of it all. If you're worried about the FBI, you probably shouldn't be pointing fingers at other groups and claiming they're agents or provocateurs without any good reasons. That is more of a COINTELPRO tactic than anything else that has been mentioned in this thread.

Yes, the FBI is in our groups and watching us. Yes, the FBI is trying to destroy our abilities to operate (probably the anarchists more than the leninists, but I digress). When you start calling other people feds, you're playing in to their game. Look at what happened to a number of groups in the early 70's and you'll see what I mean.


the FBI could of course use RAAN as unconscious idiots with the intent of wrecking havoc in the "left mileu" of the USA.

The "left mileu" doesn't need any help from the FBI to be a conflict-ridden, ineffective piece of shit.

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by black coffee black [email protected] 15, 2007 07:18 pm
When you start calling other people feds, you're playing in to their game. Look at what happened to a number of groups in the early 70's and you'll see what I mean.
Exactly, wasnt this one of the plans of COINTELPRO?

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Organic Revolution+March 15, 2007 09:41 pm--> (Organic Revolution @ March 15, 2007 09:41 pm)
black coffee black [email protected] 15, 2007 07:18 pm
When you start calling other people feds, you're playing in to their game. Look at what happened to a number of groups in the early 70's and you'll see what I mean.
Exactly, wasnt this one of the plans of COINTELPRO? [/b]
Yup yup.

[Organic Revolution]

From wikipedia:

COINTELPRO used a broad array of methods, including:

1. "Infiltration: Agents and informers did not merely spy on political activists. Their main purpose was to discredit and disrupt. Their very presence served to undermine trust and scare off potential supporters. The FBI and police exploited this fear to smear genuine activists as agents." [3]

2. "Psychological Warfare From the Outside: The FBI and police used myriad other "dirty tricks" to undermine progressive movements. They planted false media stories and published bogus leaflets and other publications in the name of targeted groups. They forged correspondence, sent anonymous letters, and made anonymous telephone calls. They spread misinformation about meetings and events, set up pseudo movement groups run by government agents, and manipulated or strong-armed parents, employers, landlords, school officials and others to cause trouble for activists." [4]

3. "Harassment Through the Legal System: The FBI and police abused the legal system to harass dissidents and make them appear to be criminals. Officers of the law gave perjured testimony and presented fabricated evidence as a pretext for false arrests and wrongful imprisonment. They discriminatorily enforced tax laws and other government regulations and used conspicuous surveillance, 'investigative' interviews, and grand jury subpoenas in an effort to intimidate activists and silence their supporters."

4. "Extralegal Force and Violence: The FBI and police threatened, instigated, and themselves conducted break-ins, vandalism, assaults, and beatings. The object was to frighten dissidents and disrupt their movements. In the case of radical Black and Puerto Rican activists (and later Native Americans), these attacks—including political assassinations—were so extensive, vicious, and calculated that they can accurately be termed a form of official 'terrorism.'". [5]

The FBI also conducted "black bag jobs", warrantless surreptitious entries, against the targeted groups and their members.[6]

Supporters of the FBI argue that the Bureau was convinced that there was such a threat of domestic subversion posed by radical groups that extraordinary efforts were required to forestall violence and revolutionary insurgency. Hoover was willing to use false claims to attack his political enemies. In one memo he wrote: "Purpose of counterintelligence action is to disrupt the Black Panther Party and it is immaterial whether facts exist to substantiate the charge."

In 1969 the FBI special agent in San Francisco wrote Hoover that his investigation of the Black Panther Party revealed that in his city, at least, the Black nationalists were primarily feeding breakfast to children. Hoover fired back a memo implying the career ambitions of the agent were directly related to his supplying evidence to support Hoover's view that the BPP was "a violence prone organization seeking to overthrow the Government by revolutionary means".

In one particularly controversial incident, civil rights worker Viola Liuzzo was killed in 1965 by a shot from a car in which four Ku Klux Klansmen were riding; one of the Klansmen was an FBI informant. Afterward, COINTELPRO spread false rumors that Liuzzo was a member of the Communist Party and had abandoned her children in order to have sexual relationships with African Americans involved in the civil rights movement. [7]

[Ezekiel]

When you start calling other people feds, you're playing in to their game. Look at what happened to a number of groups in the early 70's and you'll see what I mean.


Exactly, wasnt this one of the plans of COINTELPRO?
I'm not in any was saying RAAN is a fed front group, or even that they have been infiltrated.
What I am saying is that the Auburn case proves that the FBI wants to start a violent conflict between anarchists and leninists. And when either side goes along with it, they are going along with the feds' program.
Most of what COINTELPRO did was not directly by the FBI, but by inciting groups against each other.

[YSR]

What I am saying is that the Auburn case proves that the FBI wants to start a violent conflict between anarchists and leninists. And when either side goes along with it, they are going along with the feds' program.

As Nachie pointed out earlier: this "violent conflict" would be nothing new. Leninists have been literally killing anarchists since, well, Lenin!

[Ezekiel]

Like i said, i've never seen, heard, or read about anyone who believes or acts like leninism is the main enemy... your 'evidence' does not show that such people exist;
"We will hunt you at your conferences, burn your newspapers, and beat you in the streets..."

I can just see how the same people that wrote that would be shouting about 'red fascism' if a leninist were to say the same thing. But there is that thing of self-exclusion; it's wrong when anyone else does it.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 02:29 pm
"We will hunt you at your conferences, burn your newspapers, and beat you in the streets..."
Hyperbole, maybe you've heard of it? There's been much ado about nothing in regards to that flier. How many leninist texts justify the actual execution of anarchists?


But there is that thing of self-exclusion; it's wrong when anyone else does it.

Oh please.


What I am saying is that the Auburn case proves that the FBI wants to start a violent conflict between anarchists and leninists.

I doubt they give two fucks about most leninist groups these days.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Wow now that's embarrassing! (http://redanarchist.org/propaganda/fucklenin.pdf)

Because, when an organisation says "We will hunt (lol) you at your conferences, burn your newspapers, and beat you in the streets"

you really just cannot help but cringe.

Its like, Leninist comrades in America have literally millions of times more things to worry about that that. like, car crashes, getting run over, being smacked around in a bar, cops beating you at a demo. the list is literally endless.

First though, how does one hunt someone at a conference? does RAAN advocate wearing camo and playing urban guerilla? do they put on the anoraks and go "lenie" spotting?

Second, burning newspapers? I mean, what the fuck? It costs like, 50p per paper? And, what? do you like walk up to the local Trotsky's in your town centre on a Saturday morning, buy them, go home and touch yourselves are you see the 'socialist worker' turn to ash?

Really lol now that's revolutionary!

Thirdly, i imagine there have never even been a Leninist beaten up by RAAN members. And, really i bet the closest things have come to is a RAAN members eyes welling up with tears as his girlfriend walks off with the Leninist!

:lol:

And, finally, go to Miami and join the terrorists who attack Cuba. They try to kill Leninist (for real :rolleyes: ), but c'mon at least they are serious.

[redcoughsyrup]

first example, probably just some kid who thought he was doing something importat, i doubt the governmetn would waste their time on this.

for the second, assuming it's true it's probably a case of department misconduct. within law enforcement, theres alot of pressure to do well inorder to advance within the system, and i know they have people out there trying to catch people with violent intentions. i wouldn't be to difficult to imagine someone within the department pressuring the two (i.e. entrapment) into doing something illegal, but i highly doubt it's an organized FBI movement to to destroy what is currently a fringe minority that is currently little threat. the FBI has bigger, more politicized (and therefore more important) issues such as drugs and terrorism to worry about.

[apathy maybe]

bloody_capitalist_sham: You are embarrassing. Haven't you read the various things where it says that RAAN is not an organisation such as your organisation? Where that was produced by ONE individual or group, not by RAAN as a whole?

It would be like if your organisation (I simply assume that it is a monolithic socialist/Leninist one) hosted on their website a poster you had made.

You are just repeating the same crap that has been refuted many times before, RAAN is not an organisation in the sense your socialist organisation is.

[The Grey Blur]

It seems that no matter how useless an action RAAN take part in or advocate (attacking strip clubs, beating up fellow socialists) they can't be criticised. Not even on a political note I find this pathetic - one should have the courage to stand by your actions if you truly believe in them, not try and shirk responsibility.


As Nachie pointed out earlier: this "violent conflict" would be nothing new. Leninists have been literally killing anarchists since, well, Lenin!
And vice versa.

[apathy maybe]

You can't criticize RAAN for an action they didn't do! You can criticise the individuals or group who undertook the action, you can criticise the action. But blaming RAAN as an organisation is stupid!

Fuck, are you really that thick? I can't believe how fucking idiotic some people are when it comes to RAAN. They don't do things! Groups affiliated with them do things!

[manic expression]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 18, 2007 02:53 pm
You can't criticize RAAN for an action they didn't do! You can criticise the individuals or group who undertook the action, you can criticise the action. But blaming RAAN as an organisation is stupid!

Fuck, are you really that thick? I can't believe how fucking idiotic some people are when it comes to RAAN. They don't do things! Groups affiliated with them do things!
So RAAN does, effectively, absolutely NOTHING? Are you really expecting us to take the argument that RAAN cannot possibly be blamed for ANYTHING regardless of the facts?

I didn't poke you in the eye, my finger did! Don't blame me! :rolleyes:

[KC]

I really don't see the point of having an organization that does absolutely nothing and exists only in name.

[Nachie]

You fail to understand that RAAN is not even a "core-less" organization; it is not an organization at all. It is a culture, a wink, a secret. But it is also something to share. You cannot join RAAN, you can only create momentum in its name. Even the momentum of your foam-mouthed ravings against it contributes to its buzz, makes it more of an entity, that which you insist it is not.

[Ezekiel]

Consider the foamy mouthed ranting against RAAN as an entity to be criticism of the section of anarchism that advocates war with Leninists.

[The Grey Blur]

It is a culture, a wink, a secret
I laughed out loud.

The proleteriat organises itself into a vanguard, not an imaginary organisation.

[YSR]

Originally posted by Permanent [email protected] 18, 2007 07:58 am

As Nachie pointed out earlier: this "violent conflict" would be nothing new. Leninists have been literally killing anarchists since, well, Lenin!
And vice versa.
Yeah, I'd like to see how those figures stack up. I'm sure it's pretty close. :rolleyes:


The proleteriat organises itself into a vanguard, not an imaginary organisation.

How about a proletarian organization of the imaginary!

[Ezekiel]

Originally posted by Permanent [email protected] 19, 2007 11:23 pm

It is a culture, a wink, a secret
I laughed out loud.

The proleteriat organises itself into a vanguard, not an imaginary organisation.
Well, not if you don't believe in a vanguard as a matter of principal.
It goes more to show how serious they are about organizing.

Many anarchists do organize as an actual organization. The various anarchist federations in the US do a lot of work in unions, and that is their main subject in their publications, etc. They are serious about working-class rule, although I disagree with their methods of doing it.
I'm actually a member of the IWW, which is about 90% anarchists, some of which are extremely hostile to (but don't advocate killing) Leninists. But as long as we're working for the same thing- organizing the working class on a class conscious basis to get control of the workplace, no one really has a problem with me being a Maoist, which they are all aware of. We keep the arguments for when we get drunk, but we don't let it get in the way of what we both believe in doing. The whole unity-struggle-unity thing works pretty well with most of the anarchists I know. It's just these few, and the FBI controlled cells, that are trying to disrupt it.

[KC]

The proleteriat organises itself into a vanguard, not an imaginary organisation.


Uh, no. Some members of the proletariat become the vanguard and help other proletarians become class conscious. The vanguard isn't an organization.



Yeah, I'd like to see how those figures stack up. I'm sure it's pretty close.

So what? Anarchists suck, anyways.


Well, not if you don't believe in a vanguard as a matter of principal.

Whether or not you "believe" in a vanguard, it will exist. So it doesn't really matter if you think it "should exist" or not.



Many anarchists do organize as an actual organization. The various anarchist federations in the US do a lot of work in unions, and that is their main subject in their publications, etc. They are serious about working-class rule, although I disagree with their methods of doing it.
I'm actually a member of the IWW, which is about 90% anarchists, some of which are extremely hostile to (but don't advocate killing) Leninists. But as long as we're working for the same thing- organizing the working class on a class conscious basis to get control of the workplace, no one really has a problem with me being a Maoist, which they are all aware of. We keep the arguments for when we get drunk, but we don't let it get in the way of what we both believe in doing. The whole unity-struggle-unity thing works pretty well with most of the anarchists I know. It's just these few, and the FBI controlled cells, that are trying to disrupt it.

I agree with that, but it's so much fun talking shit to anarchists on here.

[Ezekiel]

Yeah, yeah, I know. It's not a fucking olive branch, I was just pointing out that there are many (most in fact) anarchists that are not the ultra-sectarian, "You're us or you're against us," attack-everyone-that-doesn't-believe-what-we-believe type.

[Ezekiel]

I missed this earlier.

You can't criticize RAAN for an action they didn't do! You can criticise the individuals or group who undertook the action, you can criticise the action. But blaming RAAN as an organisation is stupid!
That's what I was getting at, despite RAAN's ultra-sectarian stance.

[Chicano Shamrock]

Originally posted by manic expression+March 18, 2007 07:03 am--> (manic expression @ March 18, 2007 07:03 am)
apathy [email protected] 18, 2007 02:53 pm
You can't criticize RAAN for an action they didn't do! You can criticise the individuals or group who undertook the action, you can criticise the action. But blaming RAAN as an organisation is stupid!

Fuck, are you really that thick? I can't believe how fucking idiotic some people are when it comes to RAAN. They don't do things! Groups affiliated with them do things!
So RAAN does, effectively, absolutely NOTHING? Are you really expecting us to take the argument that RAAN cannot possibly be blamed for ANYTHING regardless of the facts?

I didn't poke you in the eye, my finger did! Don't blame me! :rolleyes: [/b]
In your finger scenario the hand controls the finger, the arm controls the hand, the muscles the arm, and the brain the muscles. Now in RAAN there is no group pyramid control. For your finger scenario to work with RAAN you would first need to take a butcher knife and chop off your finger so that your hand does not control the finger.

Once the finger is autonomous of the hand it can then be used in an analogy with RAAN. Now if I chop off my finger and it somehow pokes you in the eye can my hand be blamed? How so? My hand does not control my severed finger.

[KC]

Basically, RAAN is nothing more than a name. It can't be blamed for anything because it isn't anything.

[apathy maybe]

You might well be starting to grasp what RAAN is here. Except that it isn't nothing. It is an idea, a name and an umbrella.

If you want something or someone to attack for actions or so on, go direct to the group responsible. Attacking RAAN is like attacking the "central" Indymedia Centre for something that the Perth Indymedia Centre did. Or attacking Food not Bombs for something that Melbourne Food not Bombs did. It is fucking stupid!

You do know about Food not Bombs don't you? Because my understanding of the way RAAN was intended to be organised, was something similar to that. You can't claim to have a group, unless you do something!

(And I don't know how this thread got hijacked by people dissing RAAN.)

[Hiero]

How would one give praise to RAAN?

[apathy maybe]

You could praise the organisational structure, but any praise for actions and so on would have to be given to the individual or group concerned.

But that is only because RAAN doesn't actually do anything. Which I've been trying to point out.

[CodeAires]

Why does this come as no surprise to me? It's like all of the lame crap that the US Government has come up with as far as killing Castro is still concerned. Well, seven presidents later, he's still here. That says a lot.

A lot of "terrorism" is actually carried out by the government or is aggrivated by it. There have been a lot of stories like this.

[Nachie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 11:12 am
How would one give praise to RAAN?
first you need to be naked, except for a stylish grass skirt and the blood of countless infants, which of course you will have slathered all over your body.

next you need to hold up your left ankle behind you with your right hand, and by making punching motions with your left arm and hopping around, spin clockwise three times before falling prostrate and screaming "I AM NOT WORTHY!" in as sincere a tone of voice as you can.

the final step is to sign on to revleft (while still dripping in infant blood, of course) and smash the computer screen with your forehead.

[TC]

LOL the TaliRAAN are an FBI front group! Thats the best theory ever.

[RevolutionaryMarxist]

A few days ago during the March 17th Protests by the Workers World Party and ANSWER coalition, etc, I heard many hundreds of people were arrested by the police and the area was sealed off.

According to Immortal Technique who was also apprehended temporarily during that, they said "If you walk near there we'll have to arrest you."

[Ezekiel]

LOL the TaliRAAN are an FBI front group! Thats the best theory ever.I never fucking said that!
I said that an ELF cell was FBI controlled, and the FBI was trying to get the cell to do exactly what RAAN advocates doing. Coinicidence? Very well may be, but it's still what the FBI wants, whether they are behind the whole thing, or don't even know a single member (and yes, the RAAN site does refer to RAAN 'members') of RAAN.

[getfreedropout]

The Red & Anarchist Action Network (RAAN) is a fiercely anti-Leninist tendency. It has been from its beginning and will always be. Understand this and move on. If you're down with it, feel free to join in the fun. If you're not down with it, do your own shit and don't get in the way.

Attacks on Maoist bookstores are hilarious.

[manic expression]

Originally posted by Chicano Shamrock+March 20, 2007 08:27 am--> (Chicano Shamrock @ March 20, 2007 08:27 am)
Originally posted by manic [email protected] 18, 2007 07:03 am

apathy [email protected] 18, 2007 02:53 pm
You can't criticize RAAN for an action they didn't do! You can criticise the individuals or group who undertook the action, you can criticise the action. But blaming RAAN as an organisation is stupid!

Fuck, are you really that thick? I can't believe how fucking idiotic some people are when it comes to RAAN. They don't do things! Groups affiliated with them do things!
So RAAN does, effectively, absolutely NOTHING? Are you really expecting us to take the argument that RAAN cannot possibly be blamed for ANYTHING regardless of the facts?

I didn't poke you in the eye, my finger did! Don't blame me! :rolleyes:
In your finger scenario the hand controls the finger, the arm controls the hand, the muscles the arm, and the brain the muscles. Now in RAAN there is no group pyramid control. For your finger scenario to work with RAAN you would first need to take a butcher knife and chop off your finger so that your hand does not control the finger.

Once the finger is autonomous of the hand it can then be used in an analogy with RAAN. Now if I chop off my finger and it somehow pokes you in the eye can my hand be blamed? How so? My hand does not control my severed finger. [/b]
You know exactly what I'm talking about. The body does things as one, it is one entity.

If RAAN is nothing but a name, then it seems to be completely empty IMO. What's to stop a bunch of College Democrats calling themselves RAAN?

[Ezekiel]

The Red & Anarchist Action Network (RAAN) is a fiercely anti-Leninist tendency. It has been from its beginning and will always be. Understand this and move on. If you're down with it, feel free to join in the fun. If you're not down with it, do your own shit and don't get in the way.

That's still ignoring the fact that the FBI is actively trying to encourage this, and not even wondering why?

[Hiero]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 20, 2007 10:35 pm
You could praise the organisational structure, but any praise for actions and so on would have to be given to the individual or group concerned.

But that is only because RAAN doesn't actually do anything. Which I've been trying to point out.
Then by that logic, we could criticise the organisational structure for bad actions, as well as criticising the individuals. Though we never really know who these individuals are.

[apathy maybe]

No ... By that logic you could criticise the organisational structure for being a bad organisational structure. But for actions, you criticise the action or the individual.

And complaining about not knowing who the individuals concerned is just stupid. So what? If I see Socialist Alliance (or more likely Socialist Alternative) doing something really stupid, how do I know who the individuals concerned are? (Or should I in this case criticise the organisation, and let the individuals who actually made the decisions go without comment?)

If you, in Australia, want to criticise actions taken under the RAAN name, in the US, I don't think you need to know names and faces.

It would be like blaming Food not Bombs for something a collective using the Food not Bombs name did. It would be stupid!

[вор в законе]

I thought only NAZIS and ultra-religious fundamentalists burned bookstores..

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 22, 2007 12:04 am
I thought only NAZIS and ultra-religious fundamentalists burned bookstores..
Sorry, which bookstores were burnt again? :unsure:

[getfreedropout]

Originally posted by manic [email protected] 21, 2007 06:45 am
If RAAN is nothing but a name, then it seems to be completely empty IMO. What's to stop a bunch of College Democrats calling themselves RAAN?
The network has a founding document, the Principles and Direction, in addition to a few other texts that lay out the shared principles of RAAN. Within these principles, groups and individuals act completely autonomously.

[manic expression]

Originally posted by getfreedropout+March 21, 2007 04:52 pm--> (getfreedropout @ March 21, 2007 04:52 pm)
manic [email protected] 21, 2007 06:45 am
If RAAN is nothing but a name, then it seems to be completely empty IMO. What's to stop a bunch of College Democrats calling themselves RAAN?
The network has a founding document, the Principles and Direction, in addition to a few other texts that lay out the shared principles of RAAN. Within these principles, groups and individuals act completely autonomously. [/b]
Does it have any way of enforcing these principles? If it's a self-described "wink", it hardly has the ability to ensure that people actually follow its "rules".

Furthermore, are these guidelines acute enough to have any regulation of group activities?