who's hurting because of "illegal immigrants"?

[R_P_A_S]

It’s obvious that the capitalist, Petty-Boirgeoisie are hiring these "illegal immigrants".
It goes perfect with the capitalist system to obtain cheap labor and generate a bigger surplus value. More profit, etc.

BUT why are they complaining?, who is complaining? Who is really hurting? Or is this just an other way to turn workers against workers?

The main stream media seems to be making this a huge issue. the government and everyone.

so if they are the ones looking for better ways to exploit people. why do they ***** about it? ITS THEM WHO IS HIRING these people. They aren't opening business and running "an all immigrant restaurant"

answers???

[freakazoid]

I don't think that the business owners are the ones that are complaining. I think that it has to do a lot with racism. People thinking that they are having there jobs stolen, that the immigrants are causing crime, and also that they are overtaking this country.

[Raúl Duke]

Or is this just an other way to turn workers against workers?

Maybe this is true....

however...


The main stream media seems to be making this a huge issue. the government and everyone.

The media, the government, and therefore the elites want to use illegal immigrants as scapegoats for the problems in the job market. They don't want you to think for a split second that any of these problems comes from the capitalists. In other words: They are scapegoating to stop possible class conscious and to divide workers, since they and the immigrants are exploited from labor yet its in the capitalist's interest to divide them.

However this is my opinion.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 01:25 am

Or is this just an other way to turn workers against workers?

Maybe this is true....

however...


The main stream media seems to be making this a huge issue. the government and everyone.

The media, the government, and therefore the elites want to use illegal immigrants as scapegoats for the problems in the job market. They don't want you to think for a split second that any of these problems comes from the capitalists. In other words: They are scapegoating to stop possible class conscious and to divide workers, since they and the immigrants are exploited from labor yet its in the capitalist's interest to divide them.

However this is my opinion.
i agree. im writing a paper.. and I realized that i dont have a closing title. my closing title is that they are just trying to turn workers against workers.. and they use this as a scapegoat...

but i dont think thats enough. so i got to thinking.. "why are they *****ing, if is them?"

[Raúl Duke]

The *****ing is a charade, so to continue perputauting the myth that the boss and the common worker (this not including the scapegoat: illegal immigrants) have goals in common.

Its also done to hide the real source of the problem: the capitalists.

They are outsorcing labor, thats why there isn't that many jobs now. (it isn't because of the illegal immigrants).

This charade, or spectacle if you will, is just to keep the worker's distracted and thus from achieving class conscious.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 02:01 am
The *****ing is a charade, so to continue perputauting the myth that the boss and the common worker (this not including the scapegoat: illegal immigrants) have goals in common.

Its also done to hide the real source of the problem: the capitalists.

They are outsorcing labor, thats why there isn't that many jobs now. (it isn't because of the illegal immigrants).

This charade, or spectacle if you will, is just to keep the worker's distracted and thus from achieving class conscious.
I GUESS my paper is done. because i blame them for it. not the immigrants.. lol
damn that was easy.

[Raúl Duke]

hey, no problem for being of help.

If there was a poll for best/favorite marxist I might vote for you. You always have interesting and serious questions.

[manic expression]

Any competition between workers hurts workers and helps the bourgeoisie. In this case, illegal immigrants ARE helping their families (both with them and back home) and are getting more money than they would, but it is precisely the same system which put them in that situation in the first place. Moreover, the non-illegal workers are hurt tremendously. Ultimately, workers are hurt even though some get a few more crumbs, and the bourgeoisie make far more profits.

[Rawthentic]

non-illegal workers
"undocumented" workers please. Don't use "illegal", because that is a very denigrating term.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 02:51 am

non-illegal workers
"undocumented" workers please. Don't use "illegal", because that is a very denigrating term.
that's why its in "quotes" my friend. because thats what the media uses.

[Rawthentic]

Comrade RPAS, Manic Expression did not put it in quotes, just look at his post above my previous one:


non-illegal workers

[manic expression]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 02:51 am

non-illegal workers
"undocumented" workers please. Don't use "illegal", because that is a very denigrating term.
My mistake, I should've known better. Thanks for the correction.

[Guerrilla22]

People such as Lou Dobbs and white supremacist groups scape goat immigrants, supposedly for taking jobs away from Americans, however this is ridiculous, immigrants are not hurting anyone. Then again the whole anti-immigration agenda is based on nothing but racism, no matter what its proponents claim.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 04:36 am
People such as Lou Dobbs and white supremacist groups scape goat immigrants, supposedly for taking jobs away from Americans, however this is ridiculous, immigrants are not hurting anyone. Then again the whole anti-immigration agenda is based on nothing but racism, no matter what its proponents claim.
i agree. but why do you think they add, "we aren't against any person trying to come to the United States, we just asked for them to take the legal procedures like everyone else"

with that there they aren't making it a race issue. its more about the "legality"

[manic expression]

Originally posted by R_P_A_S+March 13, 2007 05:06 am--> (R_P_A_S @ March 13, 2007 05:06 am)
[email protected] 13, 2007 04:36 am
People such as Lou Dobbs and white supremacist groups scape goat immigrants, supposedly for taking jobs away from Americans, however this is ridiculous, immigrants are not hurting anyone. Then again the whole anti-immigration agenda is based on nothing but racism, no matter what its proponents claim.
i agree. but why do you think they add, "we aren't against any person trying to come to the United States, we just asked for them to take the legal procedures like everyone else"

with that there they aren't making it a race issue. its more about the "legality" [/b]
Well that's what they SAY. It's like the people who supported segregation citing "States' Rights" instead of "We Hate Blacks". The simple fact is that there AREN'T any viable legal avenues to get to the US if you aren't white and come from a third world country. When they say "we want people to use legal means to get here", they really mean (directly or indirectly) that they want to restrict non-whites from getting here.

[Guerrilla22]

Notice they adamently opposed Bush's proposed guest worker progam though. This disproves their claims that they are in favor of 'legal' immigration.

[manic expression]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 05:12 am
Notice they adamently opposed Bush's proposed guest worker progam though. This disproves their claims that they are in favor of 'legal' immigration.
Excellent point.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 05:12 am
Notice they adamently opposed Bush's proposed guest worker progam though. This disproves their claims that they are in favor of 'legal' immigration.
why do you think Bush proposed this guest worker program?

[Guerrilla22]

because it would greatly benefit large companies and what is in the interest of large companies has always dominated the Bush administration's policy agenda.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 05:17 am
because it would greatly benefit large companies and what is in the interest of large companies has always dominated the Bush administration's policy agenda.
DOH! thanks!

[Raúl Duke]

Then again the whole anti-immigration agenda is based on nothing but racism, no matter what its proponents claim.

I'm not sure if this is 100% true. In Miami I had a debate in class and there seem to be some latinos (suburban latinos,mind you. And they seem to be those born and/or rised in the US only; but can't be sure.) against undocumented immigration. (than again, because these were suburban kids; their parents actually bought the visa to get here in the first place; unlike the undocumented immigrants that walk through the border.) heh, in that debate I stood in favor of letting the undocumented immigrants come in (as in legalize their entry, i.e. open borders) stating that products earn these rights (to cross over borders easily, i.e. free trade) and why shouldn't people have this right as well. Interestingly the main point of the opposition was that undocumented workers waste government money. (here I stated that the US waste the most on the millitary, and even if you combine the other 2 below it in the list, the US still spends more!) They sometimes raise the point about losing jobs (which I countered by saying how businesses out-source labor).

What does this episode prove? That the media,etc is quite strong tool for control of opinions, and not all anti-immigration views are based on rascism. I don't consider my classmates rascists (unless they are subconciously or in a way I can't point out.), yet they had these anti-immigrant views fed to them by the media, etc.

However, some where not rabid defenders of what they said....
When I attacked businesses in the debate they said that there was nothing they could do about them, so it would be better to solve the problem a different way (in this case, by letting less immigrants get in.). This is a clear example of the sentiment that pervades mosts: apathy.
Seems like the goal of the elite (through media, etc) is either apathy; or to caouse people to support the current political landscape.

[R_P_A_S]

i personally hate when our own people who either were born in the U.S. or got a greencard get on TV and fucking hate on the "illegal immigrants" It drives me crazy.

"we did it! why can't they do it?" "its not fair for us who play by the rules and they dont!"

shut the fuck up&#33; you.. you damn "tio tomas&#33;" lol <_<

[RNK]

Sadly, both "legal" US workers and "illegal" immigrant workers are victims in this case. US workers are victims because their capitalist overseers are replacing them en masse with cheap labour. Immigrant workers are victims because they&#39;re being exploited based on their prior economic standing and are being treated almost sub-humanly.

Personally I have no problem with immigration solely on the basis of where one lives geographically. The problem is that capitalists, yet again, have twisted it to their perverse favour. Immigration in a socialist society wouldn&#39;t be a problem.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 06:57 pm
Sadly, both "legal" US workers and "illegal" immigrant workers are victims in this case. US workers are victims because their capitalist overseers are replacing them en masse with cheap labour. Immigrant workers are victims because they&#39;re being exploited based on their prior economic standing and are being treated almost sub-humanly.

Personally I have no problem with immigration solely on the basis of where one lives geographically. The problem is that capitalists, yet again, have twisted it to their perverse favour. Immigration in a socialist society wouldn&#39;t be a problem.
can you elaborate more on how it would not be a problem?

[RNK]

Because (and keep in mind, this is assuming that a world-wide socialist revolution has occured), there would be no need. The driving force behind immigration today is wanting to aquire a better life. People from poor countries move to richer countries. In a socialist system that would be unecessary because the fundamental social and economic differences between this ethnicity or that ethnicity will be almost non-existant. There&#39;d be no need for Mexicans to move to the United States -- socialism would provide them with the same quality of life, same universal access to commodities, same security, as any other worker.

The only catch is the need for a world-wide socialist revolution and communist transition. Unless all of world society can be given the same benefits and freedoms from exploitation, there will always be economic divisions within society, and there will always be problems like this. Remove the divisions, remove the inequalities, and you remove the problem.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 08:33 pm
Because (and keep in mind, this is assuming that a world-wide socialist revolution has occured), there would be no need. The driving force behind immigration today is wanting to aquire a better life. People from poor countries move to richer countries. In a socialist system that would be unecessary because the fundamental social and economic differences between this ethnicity or that ethnicity will be almost non-existant. There&#39;d be no need for Mexicans to move to the United States -- socialism would provide them with the same quality of life, same universal access to commodities, same security, as any other worker.

The only catch is the need for a world-wide socialist revolution and communist transition. Unless all of world society can be given the same benefits and freedoms from exploitation, there will always be economic divisions within society, and there will always be problems like this. Remove the divisions, remove the inequalities, and you remove the problem.
you know i fucking hate how damn slow I can be at times.. DUh&#33;