Alienation of Labour, during Socialism...

[R_P_A_S]

I was just thinking, On the 1844 Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts, Marx says that Alienation of Labour has to do with the worker feeling external to his job.

does not belong to his essential being; that he, therefore, does not confirm himself in his work, but denies himself, feels miserable and not happy,

does not develop free mental and physical energy, but mortifies his flesh and ruins his mind. Hence, the worker feels himself only when he is not working; when he is working, he does not feel himself.

He is at home when he is not working, and not at home when he is working. His labour is, therefore, not voluntary but forced, it is forced labour.

OK, I assume he s talking about a guy who for say works at Mcdonald's obviously this is not him, or what makes him happy or can help him grow, etc.

So lets say we have the same man working at a worker own restaurant. in a socialist system. BUT this is not really his choice of work. He'd rather be designing websites or something. Is he supposed to not feel alienated just because he owns the restaurant along with his co-workers?

We aren't guaranteed dream jobs in socialism. I assume right? Some of us will do certain labour that is not really what we want to do. So how's that different? not in human development and growth?

not considering better living standards and pay. just "human development, happiness, etc?

[Raúl Duke]

Interesting thought.....

But why won't he be able to design websites?
Is it because he doesn't have the knowledge to do it?

If this was the case, than he can take free night education. He would have to continue his work at resturant till he has finish his education on web design. Than when their is a place with a position open (and if the workers of the place allow him to work alongside them through a vote....well, not sure about this part since I won't know how exactly a worker's co-op would work exactly) he can switch over and work as what he wanted to do.

Why aren't we guaranteed the jobs we really want under socialism?

[Entrails Konfetti]

Some people will tell you that socialism is a transitory period, like its a rigid construct that evolves into lower-Communism, and lower-Communism develops into higher-Communism where there is a super-abundance so labour time vouchers aren't needed to obtain goods. However, the problem with this is that people just don't operate rigidly, and it assumes that the higest phase of Communism is the end of human struggle.

On the flip-side, this may help people to work toward something-- though the far off objective can't really be guareented. Higher-Communism hasn't really be tried out-- only speculated, and really, you can only envision something that's one-step ahead of where you are.

The starting point is that revolution is supposed to give us more control of our labour, aswell as abolish private property and accumulation of capital. We think that this start will lead to the menial labour of our jobs being automated, since profitability isn't an object and this frees up restrictions to technology. For example, chopping sugar-cane is probably one of the worst, most dangerous jobs in the world-- but the bourgeoisie will not automate those jobs because it is actually cheaper to higher immigrants to do the work. From the automation of labour; the elimation of private property; the elimination of the rich 3% controlling all the resources, we think this will lead to a super-abundance of wealth.

Yes the resturant worker may be alienated under the immidate post-revolutionary society, but they will be alot less than under the previous system.But as Johnny Darko pointed out education will most likely be free and they can take the advantage.

[R_P_A_S]

I just believe that this alienation will still excist for a period of time. because I mean, think about it..

you have 10 people... 6 want to be web designers.. and 4 want to run a restaurant.

-the restaurant has 8 slots available
-web designer firm only 2 available

so that means 4 workers will have to do something "that's external to them" for how long? :huh:

and yes obviously it wont be as bad, like in capitalism. but a different form of it will exist

[Rawthentic]

When problems like these come up, we will have the ability to democratically decide and negotiate our issues to our best interests.

[Raúl Duke]

you have 10 people... 6 want to be web designers.. and 4 want to run a restaurant.

-the restaurant has 8 slots available
-web designer firm only 2 available

so that means 4 workers will have to do something "that's external to them" for how long?

So it may possibly happen (being alienated from your labor during socialism); however, it wouldn't be worse than capitalism because (other than the fact that the workplaces are run democratically) like I mention earlier: you can get the education (or brush up your skills, or learn new things relevant or related to webdesign.) and a) when the position comes up you can have it, b) another web-design co-op is formed which has an open position or, c) you can form your own web-design co-op with a group of like-minded friends and people.


and yes obviously it wont be as bad, like in capitalism. but a different form of it will exist

Since we are talking about socialism, which is a specific economic stage; than, these problems might be more frequent because of the need to repair infrastructure (after revolution), to reorganize the economy, etc. So I suppose when we reach a more developed form of socialism these problems might be less likely and maybe even more unlikely in communism.

(I underline these words to stress that what I'm saying is only a guess, an opinion. I can't predict what would really happen.)

[R_P_A_S]

You know. I still have a hard time grasping how this will be dealt with. I understand we could take votes and run the restaurant or factory more democratically according to the workers needs. There for It will be less stressful for the workers and obviously the focus would be on them more than to making profits for the boss, yes I get this and I agree its far better than under Capitalism.

BUT! with free education and pretty much now with sky being the limit to as how far you can go in society. who will want to stay doing the simple task?

-janitorial services
-construction worker
-parking lot attendant?
-receptionist?

these I believe are mainly "stepping stone" jobs. You are telling me that there's some human beings out there who find their true nature and creativity in answering phones for a firm? for a contractor? Some like to haul 30 kilos sacks of cement and lay bricks in the hot sun all day???

Don't you think these people would rather be in a class room learning maybe, medicine? philosophy, science or politics?

Me for example If we were on the eve of a socialist revolution and needed volunteer workers I would be more than happy to donate my time to help rebuilt our towns, and cities. but thats just me. and this can't be expected for ever.

I'm just wondering who will fill in these very very needed slots. of jobs who are seem to be for people either with no or very little education, or young professionals trying to gain experience to land a better hight paying job.

:blink: :(

[R_P_A_S]

I think I have a suggestion for my very own question.. damn. ok tell me what you think of this.

How about mandatory community service? for example children ages 12 to 14 will help out in groups coordinated once or twice a week to clean their schools?

young man and women ages 15 to 18 will be required to volunteer 10 hours a month or so to helping with city planning and maintenance. whatever the council feels needs to be done. They will obviously be led by a senior towns man who is familiar with the maintenance needed and the tools, etc.

something like this perhaps? teach our young comrades to be responsible and caring of our society from a young age. so that they can go on to college and contribute to society,

I also read that Hugo Chavez starting this year has made it mandatory for all Venezuelans ages 14 to 28 to do 4 hours a community service a month. other wise you can get fined or something.

and that he has allowed workers an 4 hours a week to study socialism under work with paid time. something that obviously the bosses dont like it..

anyways you guys think this sounds like a good idea?

[R_P_A_S]

i still will like thoughts on this?

[jaycee]

i really doubt that people will be full time waiters in socialism (by the way are you refering to socialsim as the transition period towards commnsm?). why can't the chef bring the food out.

Marx talked about people not having jobs in communism, i.e. you wouldn't be a builder for your whole life, you could be a builder one day a fisherman the next, an artist the next etc.

if you are talking about socialism as the transition period then their probably will be alienation, but it will be attempted to be lessened at every stage possible.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 06:54 pm
i really doubt that people will be full time waiters in socialism (by the way are you refering to socialsim as the transition period towards commnsm?). why can't the chef bring the food out.

Marx talked about people not having jobs in communism, i.e. you wouldn't be a builder for your whole life, you could be a builder one day a fisherman the next, an artist the next etc.

if you are talking about socialism as the transition period then their probably will be alienation, but it will be attempted to be lessened at every stage possible.
i dunno if you ever worked at a restaurant bro..but trust me. you dont want the chef bringing out the food. or the waiter cooking lol. you are asking for disaster!

how would our industries have consistency if one day we'll have musicians farming, and the next day doctors?????

[R_P_A_S]

I would still like further discussion on this

[jaycee]

I mean i think its a bit stupid having people whos sole purpose is to bring the food to people, but it doesn't really matter anyway. Being a waiter wouldn't be that bad if you didn't have to work so many hours for so little benefit.

But any answer I give needs to be based on whether or not we are talking about socialism in terms of a transition period towrads communism or communism itself.

The point about consistency is that, in communism the basic needs are easily produced and therefore consistency in other 'free' activities isn't really necessary.

Your point about muscians farming and waiters cooking doesn't really matter because people will be fullly trained in much more areas of life, your not gonna do a job without knowing how to do it. So it isn't a question of a muscian frming but of a PERSON doing both.

Again this all depends on what period we are talking about, also whatever period we are talking about it doesn't particulaly matter becuase people will find ways around these problems when faced with them.

As someone said earlier, unwanted jobs can always be automated; i would add to his/her point that things are not automated in capitalism because it is inpossible to exploit a machine, i.e. you can't get anything extra from beacuse it would cost a certain amount depending on how much profit can be extracted from it, where as a worker can be paid far less than the amount he/her produces.

[R_P_A_S]

any more discussion on this?

[RedLenin]

This is a very good question to thing about. It would be good to start with an analysis of how things work under capitalism.

Under capitalism, workers work for their survival. You need a job if you want to eat. Further, what kind of job you get depends on your education and on the amount of money you have. If cannot afford the necessary education, you will not get the job. Once you get a job, you have no say over how your place of work operates. Your boss is an absolute dictator, there is a rigid division of labor, and you are exploited. Now, what will be different under socialism?

Under socialism things will be the exact opposite for the most part. Now, immediately after a revolution you will still need to do some useful labor. As socialism emerges from capitalism it will still retain birthmarks of bourgeois society, among these the rule "he who does not work does not eat". So even under socialism labor will be coerced to a degree. On the positive side, all education will be free for everyone, so everyone is free to pursue the education and career of their choice. Every workplace in society will be democratically self-managed by the workers themselves, through workplace assemblies and factory committees. Each workplace will have a production quota, and the workers can come together and democratically decide how to best allocate the labor to meet the quota. These measures represent a very radical break with the bourgeois conditions of labor. Yet on top of all of these, the division of labor will also be gradually done away with. A key to this is balanced job complexes. For example, at a factory, you would not need to have a thousand different positions. Each worker could do a variety of tasks. In this way, the division of labor is gradually reduced and done away with and jobs become less repetitive and boring.

And the above is what happens immediately after a revolution. As the lower phaze of communism (socialism) developes into the higher phaze, labor will cease to be coerced in any way. Labor will no longer be a means of securing an existence and will become a prime want in life. The alienation of labor will be completely done away with and all individuals will be able to develope their skills and creative potential and do a variety of tasks. The division of labor will be a thing of the past and labor will become a creative expression of humanity, not an evil of life. So as to the original question, yes some alienation will still exist in early socialist society. This alienation and division of labor, which are birthmarks left over from bourgeois society, will be gradually overcome and completely done away with with the emergence of communism.