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JazzRemington
10th March 2007, 19:38
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_value

Basically, even though water is generally more useful to humans in terms of bodily needs and diamonds are not, diamonds are bought and sold for higher prices on the market.

Various schools of economic thought attempted to solve this paradox. The Marginalists argue that its the subjective value-creation process of the individual based on relative scarcity that makes diamonds more valuable than water. Thus, I may value diamonds more than water because diamonds are more scarce than water so I may be willing to pay more for "a unit of diamond" than for a "unit of water."

For LTV, it's basically that it takes more social labor to produce diamonds than water, thus diamonds are sold at higher rates.

From my, albeit short, research on the topic, I've come to the conclusion that the Marginalist solution relies on too much abstraction and unmeasurable claims (something that they are charged with constantly). But the LTV theory does leave the question as to why people might view diamonds as more useful and why they would be willing to pay such a high price for them; however, this does not mean that the Marginalists were right in their solution. The Marginalists suffer from the similar problem.

Rather, it is my assertion that the basic of the LTV solution are correct, but missing one important key element: society. If there was no social usefulness to diamonds, then they would not be produced and they would not be sold.

What I mean here is that diamonds have a use to society. What kind of use, we cannot know for certain. Perhaps they like diamonds because they have become a way of showing off wealth (coming from the fact of their relative difficulty of production) or maybe they like the nice shininess of them. But for whatever reason, society values diamonds. It's not that diamonds are scarce, or that people individually and subjectively value diamonds. It's more along the lines of the fact that diamonds are valued more because of social factors. They are still bought and sold at high prices because of their relative cost of production, however.

Marginalists claim that "consumers would make a practice of seeking expensive wares without regard to their use." (1) But this is erroneous because 1) they are thinking within the faulty concept of Marginalism and 2) they do not take into consideration the social use of goods and services. As noted above, because diamonds have a use within society, they are sought out on the market, despite of their expensiveness.

I'm not sure this makes any sense, as I am typing this rather quickly in what little time I have available to me currently. My biggest fear is that this strays too closely to Marginalism. But what does everybody else think?

Footnotes
1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_util...er_and_diamonds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_utility#Criticism_of_the_marginalist_expl anation_of_the_paradox_of_water_and_diamonds)

bloody_capitalist_sham
10th March 2007, 20:08
i can see CR is viewing this, im eager to read his comments

ComradeRed
10th March 2007, 20:11
But the LTV theory does leave the question as to why people might view diamonds as more useful and why they would be willing to pay such a high price for them... --emphasis added

Those are claims made by the bourgeois economist; both of which are not really measurable. Let me analyze this in two parts (each part focusing on each bold part respectively).

"Why people migh view diamonds as more useful..."

This falls into the trap that usefulness is not a boolean quantity. The spectrum of usefulness is {0,1} or {it isn't useful, it is useful} (the brackets indicate that this is a mathematical set).

The bourgeois economists want to say instead the spectrum of usefulness is the set of all real numbers. But as I've pointed out before, what units would you then use? And more importantly how would anyone measure this objectively?

How much is the "usefulness" of "life"? Normalized to what "N" 'units of utility'?

"How much are you willing to pay for a given quantity of a give good?"

This question is more tricky, because how much someone is willing to spend on anything is dependent on the wage of that person which is in turn dependent on the person's job.

This however plays no role in the determination of the price. This would determine whether or not an agent would purchase a good at a given price. Even then it would be rather sticky to deal with.

This is closely related to the marginalist concept of "demand", there was an excellent powerpoint presentation criticizing it that Steve Keen delivered link (http://www.debunking-economics.com/Lectures/PolEcon/Week02IntroDemand.ppt) .


What I mean here is that diamonds have a use to society. What kind of use, we cannot know for certain. Perhaps they like diamonds because they have become a way of showing off wealth (coming from the fact of their relative difficulty of production) or maybe they like the nice shininess of them. But for whatever reason, society values diamonds. It's not that diamonds are scarce, or that people individually and subjectively value diamonds. It's more along the lines of the fact that diamonds are valued more because of social factors. They are still bought and sold at high prices because of their relative cost of production, however.
Intriguing idea, and it seems perfectly consistent with the LTV (I assume that LTV = Labor Theory of Value throughout, correct me if I'm inconsistent with your use of the acronym).

However, as for "Why" there is a use, that's not really within the scope of economics...or any field for that matter.

As Marx wrote in Capital:

Originally posted by Marx
A commodity is, in the first place, an object outside us, a thing that by its properties satisfies human wants of some sort or another. The nature of such wants, whether, for instance, they spring from the stomach or from fancy, makes no difference.[2] Neither are we here concerned to know how the object satisfies these wants, whether directly as means of subsistence, or indirectly as means of production. --emphasis added

From Das Kapital, Vol. 1, Chapter 1, Section 1, Paragraph 2 (http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm#S1).

It seems to be an irrelevant question in my opinion.

I think that would be a big point to drive home: why people find something useful or not is completely irrelevant to economics.

JazzRemington
10th March 2007, 20:23
Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 03:11 pm
This falls into the trap that usefulness is not a boolean quantity. The spectrum of usefulness is {0,1} or {it isn't useful, it is useful} (the brackets indicate that this is a mathematical set).

Perhaps I worded it wrong. But I was attempting to answer the question Marginalists ask as to why someone would want to pay such a high price for goods or services, in regards tot eh Diamond-water paradox. Of course usefulness is either yes or no, and that you can't measure how useful.



Intriguing idea, and it seems perfectly consistent with the LTV (I assume that LTV = Labor Theory of Value throughout, correct me if I'm inconsistent with your use of the acronym).

Yes, LTV is the labor theory of value.


However, as for "Why" there is a use, that's not really within the scope of economics...or any field for that matter.

Well, I think you and I know from arguing with people who believe in Marginalism...it is! :lol:

ComradeRed
10th March 2007, 20:34
But I was attempting to answer the question Marginalists ask as to why someone would want to pay such a high price for goods or services, in regards tot eh Diamond-water paradox. Yeah, I understand that. My point was that this question is a meaningless question in economics.

It doesn't matter where the origin of use-value comes from.

What does matter is that use-value exists.

The bourgeois economist is trying to introduce the concept of marginal utility here...which doesn't work mathematically, or logically.

With it they try to answer a meaningless question.

Why someone does an act is a question for ethics, not economics. It cannot be answered correctly in economics.

which doctor
10th March 2007, 21:48
Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 02:38 pm
Various schools of economic thought attempted to solve this paradox. The Marginalists argue that its the subjective value-creation process of the individual based on relative scarcity that makes diamonds more valuable than water. Thus, I may value diamonds more than water because diamonds are more scarce than water so I may be willing to pay more for "a unit of diamond" than for a "unit of water."
But there are other gemstones which are rarer than diamonds, yet still command less money on the market.

JazzRemington
12th March 2007, 19:51
Originally posted by FoB+March 10, 2007 04:48 pm--> (FoB @ March 10, 2007 04:48 pm)
[email protected] 10, 2007 02:38 pm
Various schools of economic thought attempted to solve this paradox. The Marginalists argue that its the subjective value-creation process of the individual based on relative scarcity that makes diamonds more valuable than water. Thus, I may value diamonds more than water because diamonds are more scarce than water so I may be willing to pay more for "a unit of diamond" than for a "unit of water."
But there are other gemstones which are rarer than diamonds, yet still command less money on the market. [/b]
I read that same objection somewhere. But I guess it has to do with social factors. For isntance, diamonds have become a sort of "standard of wealth," meaning that if you own something with diamonds in it you appear wealthy or appear to at least be higher up on the social food chain, if you will.