The use of 'Retard'/'Retarded' as insult

[Black Dagger]

The CC voted some months ago that using 'retard'/'retarded' etc. in a pejorative sense (i.e. as insult) was prejudiced language and subject to warning points.

Unfortunately this decision has not really been enforced as well as say the boards policy against other forms of prejudice language.

In part i think this is because use of the term 'retard' as a pejorative is so common place amongst the boards membership - so common place that admins appear reluctant to issue warnings (verbal or otherwise) to members who use the term.

In regards to the former, i think this is probably simply due to a lack of understanding of the issue rather than some kind of virulent ableism; like a discussion recently about homophobic language, some forms of prejudiced language seem to have become so casualised in the population that people are seemingly oblivious to the offensive connotations of what they are saying. Its so casualised they dont even really give it a second thought, they just say it.

The fact is however, describing someone as a 'retard' as a means to insult them is explicitly prejudiced.

In practice a term that applies to/describes a section of the population, is being taken and used out of context, pejoratively.

Like 'i can't believe i was being such a retard lol!' or 'don't be a retard!!!!' or 'that's fucking retarded!'

You're making a pejorative (negative) out of something that is inherent to another person, like skin colour or sexuality, it becomes something insulting, that is insulting to be people who are actually 'mentally retarded'.

It is in practice no different from using the term 'gay' pejoratively.

'That's so fucking retarded!' or 'That's so fucking gay!'

'Don't be a retard lol!' or 'Don't be gay lol!

From the CC discussion of this issue:


Originally posted by TAT
"Retard" is a word initially used to describe people who have psychological disabilities. It is now, just like the word gay, used to describe something negative and in that case does the same thing: perpetuates the notion that certain vulnurable, oppressed and marginalised groups of people are a negative. (Be it consciously or otherwise)

I am in full support of the CC decision on this issue, and hopefully, through discussion, this can be addressed on the board more generally.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

okay.

How do i say though "i can't believe i was being such a retard lol"

without using that word, but having another suitable word to replace it with?

so like, maybe "i can't believe i was being such a spastic lol" is that okay?

or what about "i can't believe i was being such a crazy lol"?

and "i can't believe i was being such a frootloop lol"?

or "i can't believe i was being such a nutter lol"?

and "i can't believe i was being so bat shit insane lol"?

just some queries. can never be sure here.

[Mujer Libre]

I know the word sometimes slips out- mainly irl though. But ten I feel bad straight away...

Anyway, I find "shithead" is quite a good alternative.

[Red Menace]

I agree with you 100% black rose. It is no different then saying something is "gay." it serves no other purpose than to insult people that are 'mentally retarded.' we must stop the use of this word immedietley. I am glad that this topic is being addressed.

[Socialist Dave]

As I said in the 'nigga' thread


Have any of you heard of Wittgenstien? When he talked about language he said that it was what cultures used to express themselves. Therefore, as cultures evolve so does language (Thats why if you read Shakespeare its almost like reading another language) and the meaings of words change. For example 95% of the time when someone uses cool, they don't mean it in the tempreture sense. By the same thread when most people use the word 'nigger' they don't mean it in a derogatory way. So I think really you shouldn't get worked up about what people say, its what people mean that counts.

[Guerrilla22]

Anyone who uses the word in a perojative manner should be immiedetly restricted. Second offense should result in a ban.

[Freedom?]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 02:54 am
Anyone who uses the word in a perojative manner should be immiedetly restricted. Second offense should result in a ban.
Isn't that a little harsh?

[Red Menace]

Originally posted by Freedom?+March 11, 2007 12:44 am--> (Freedom? @ March 11, 2007 12:44 am)
[email protected] 11, 2007 02:54 am
Anyone who uses the word in a perojative manner should be immiedetly restricted. Second offense should result in a ban.
Isn't that a little harsh? [/b]
no. the same thing would probably happen with someone saying something is "gay", except there would probably be a warning in there somewhere.

[Red Menace]

Originally posted by Socialist [email protected] 10, 2007 07:36 pm
As I said in the 'nigga' thread


Have any of you heard of Wittgenstien? When he talked about language he said that it was what cultures used to express themselves. Therefore, as cultures evolve so does language (Thats why if you read Shakespeare its almost like reading another language) and the meaings of words change. For example 95% of the time when someone uses cool, they don't mean it in the tempreture sense. By the same thread when most people use the word 'nigger' they don't mean it in a derogatory way. So I think really you shouldn't get worked up about what people say, its what people mean that counts.
Intention is irrelevant. "it wasn't my intention to murder that man officer, he just pissed me off"

just because thats what society thinks is acceptable, doesn't mean it should be. It was common practice in early 19th century for men to beat their wives. it was socially accepted, and rarely were questions asked if their wives died during the beating. Was it right cause society said it was? HELL NO!

[Freedom?]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 11, 2007 06:57 am

no. the same thing would probably happen with someone saying something is "gay", except there would probably be a warning in there somewhere.
But why should we control the human vocabulary when these insults are not intended to discriminate? I can understand with "Gay", but with "Retard"? People use it to describe things that are bad or stoopid. It is not said to offend a minority, and if it's not meant to offend, then I think we should leave it alone.

[Red Menace]

Originally posted by Freedom?+March 11, 2007 01:07 am--> (Freedom? @ March 11, 2007 01:07 am)
Red [email protected] 11, 2007 06:57 am

no. the same thing would probably happen with someone saying something is "gay", except there would probably be a warning in there somewhere.
But why should we control the human vocabulary when these insults are not intended to discriminate? I can understand with "Gay", but with "Retard"? People use it to describe things that are bad or stoopid. It is not said to offend a minority, and if it's not meant to offend, then I think we should leave it alone. [/b]
people on this forum may not be using it intentionally to discriminate, but its gotta stop somewhere, and I say that place be here. people say the term 'gay' to describe something that is stupid or bad as well. it was coined to discriminate against a certain group of people. whether it be the gay community, the jewish community, or the mentally handicapped community, they were coined to victimize a group/s of people

[MarxistFuture]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 02:54 am
Anyone who uses the word in a perojative manner should be immiedetly restricted. Second offense should result in a ban.
Although thats a bit harsh from my perspective, I feel each time it happens on this board, comrade's should be reproached for making such a statement. By definition, it is a word, when used in this sense, to marginalise people.

If repeated warnings do not suffice, a ban should be used.

I include the term "gay" in this context as well.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Verbal Warnings should be absolute norm. And a thorough explanation why.

Really its much better to tell a person why using it is bad rather than a restriction lol. omfg why would you want less people post on the open bits of the board than we already have?

[Opanaorms]

If people say something ridiculous, they should be ridiculed for it. Nevermind banning them. If it continues, they will become so discredited that they'll spend more time considering their postings, or simply not posting.

[RedCeltic]

In practice a term that applies to/describes a section of the population, is being taken and used out of context, pejoratively.

I work in the field of human services with the developmentally disabled population.

Only few decades ago, you would have said that I work with the Mentally Retarded, and maybe some decades earlier it would have been the retarded, or retards. Even earlier, they were called idiots.

Today, we do not define people by the condition that the have. In another thread I mentioned that Mongoloid was once used to define someone with a condition known as Down syndrome.

I admit that I have mixed feelings about trying to be “PC Police” and stopping people from using the term retarded in every day speech to be synonymous with idiot or fool. On one hand for example.. Someone suggested as an alternative to make use of the word “Spastic” without the knowledge that spastic is a medical term that has relation to cerebral palsy. It is used for example, by saying something like, “Joe has a pretty severe case of CP, he is very tight in his joints which leads him to have a high level of spasticity.”

I grew up, like most everyone else here in the United States, making use of words such as retard, spaz, spastic, queer, gay, fag, faggot, etc. all of which seemed fairly innocent and disconnected to any real socio-political issues or population.

However, these are all terms that children use. Adults that make use of such terms sound very ignorant and are seldom taken very seriously. Now, far be it from me to stand in the way of someone’s right to sound like an immature ignoramus, but in my opinion, slang terms do have a tendency to degrade any conversation.

In addition, if I had been at some meeting, group, party, or whatever and someone made a proposal, and in response you exclaimed, “That’s retarded!” Most people (given that it’s a sort of left wing organization) would have some doubts to your commitment and understanding of social justice.

Now, as I satiated previously, we no longer make use of terms such as “Retarded” to identify individuals. So we wouldn’t say “Joe is retarded” but rather we would say “Joe has mild mental retardation.” It is interesting to note however that we do identify people as being autistic. Perhaps that is because autism is fairly new and hasn’t been associated with the negativity as MR has.

Now, I’m sure some of you may make claims that you know plenty of “adults” who make use of the term retarded in every day speech. However I would be willing to bet (theoretically) that a large majority of them would also have a problem with the fact that the developmentally disabled population live off government funds. Given that they had even the slightest clue as to the lives of so called “retards”.

[Vanguard1917]

Petit-bourgeois radicals who specialise in lecturing people about petit-bourgeois sensibilities and speech etiquette...

[RedCeltic]

Petit-bourgeois radicals who specialise in lecturing people about petit-bourgeois sensibilities and speech etiquette...


Perhaps, I don’t really care much for the concept of policing someone’s language. We are all (mostly) adults here to some degree. I suppose it is productive in pointing out the negativity in use of such slang… however I surely wouldn’t have brought up the idea of banning, nor even restricting such slang.

In the past, in regards to homophobic language, I believe I had made comments regarding what my views were on the use of such words. However I don’t recall ever expecting, or requesting any kind of “legal action” taken. As an admin I know I had never taken any action on anyone using homophobic language, nor using the term Retarded. I know I had never mentioned the latter until just now.

Again, I don’t give a shit what words you use, call my ideas “gay” if you are so inclined. However, how revolutionary are you if you make use of such terms? How does it reflect your ideals?

Since developmental disabilities affects across the board, any ethnic group, class, or whatever, and most people are related to, or know someone who has some developmental disability, making use of such a term would in fact be offensive to the majority of the population.

But you know, I suppose people need to come to that realization themselves. I doubt any kind of board restrictions would make any difference in people’s minds. If you are immature and aren’t very serous about what you are posting or the movement it will show in your choice of language.

[Political_Chucky]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 09:04 am

Petit-bourgeois radicals who specialise in lecturing people about petit-bourgeois sensibilities and speech etiquette...


Perhaps, I don’t really care much for the concept of policing someone’s language. We are all (mostly) adults here to some degree. I suppose it is productive in pointing out the negativity in use of such slang… however I surely wouldn’t have brought up the idea of banning, nor even restricting such slang.

In the past, in regards to homophobic language, I believe I had made comments regarding what my views were on the use of such words. However I don’t recall ever expecting, or requesting any kind of “legal action” taken. As an admin I know I had never taken any action on anyone using homophobic language, nor using the term Retarded. I know I had never mentioned the latter until just now.

Again, I don’t give a shit what words you use, call my ideas “gay” if you are so inclined. However, how revolutionary are you if you make use of such terms? How does it reflect your ideals?

Since developmental disabilities affects across the board, any ethnic group, class, or whatever, and most people are related to, or know someone who has some developmental disability, making use of such a term would in fact be offensive to the majority of the population.

But you know, I suppose people need to come to that realization themselves. I doubt any kind of board restrictions would make any difference in people’s minds. If you are immature and aren’t very serous about what you are posting or the movement it will show in your choice of language.
You know what, I agree 100% with you. By using the words "Retard/Retarded" I mean really, what does that show of your own intellect? I personally have tried to refrain from using such words as "gay" and "retarded" and so far I have caught myself numerous times from saying it. If you don't believe this words are discriminatory, then you might want to take a stroll back in time when it was normal for a white person to say "nigger." It was even accepted in society for a person to say "nigger" back in the '30s and no one would really think about it. Samething with today's society. Don't give me that, "my intentions are good" bullshit. Whether they are or not, your not helping the movement at all by using words that may offend someone. If a word offends much of us people here on the boards then obviously that could be taken into the streets. Its not that hard substituting one word for another so extend your vocabulary stop using these words. Not that hard.

[Socialist Dave]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 11, 2007 07:01 am

Intention is irrelevant. "it wasn't my intention to murder that man officer, he just pissed me off"

just because thats what society thinks is acceptable, doesn't mean it should be. It was common practice in early 19th century for men to beat their wives. it was socially accepted, and rarely were questions asked if their wives died during the beating. Was it right cause society said it was? HELL NO!
Thats is completley beside the point. You can't compare words to murder for fucks sake, or to wife beating. And I hardly see homophobia, racism and prejudice against mentaly disabled people as socialy acceptable, and neither should it be. I, and the people on the same side of this argument as me are not advocating prejudice. We are meerly making the disinction between simple words and hate.

[ilosh]

I have to say that I strongly disagree. The word retard describes people with psychological disabilities, right. When I say to someone "Stop acting like a retard" I pretty much mean "Stop acting like you have psychological disabilities". It's pretty much a synonym.
You say that's prejudice, but... isn't having psychological disabilities a bad thing? I mean I'm not saying we should treat actual "retarded" people like scum (but they do need treatment and someone to take care of them in my opinion).
It's different then when using the word "gay" in a negative form, since then the word is twisted into another meaning and then is insulting to gay people.

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by Freedom?+March 11, 2007 06:44 am--> (Freedom? @ March 11, 2007 06:44 am)
[email protected] 11, 2007 02:54 am
Anyone who uses the word in a perojative manner should be immiedetly restricted. Second offense should result in a ban.
Isn't that a little harsh? [/b]
Not really. This is a leftist internet forum, we do not need people on here degrading people with disablities, gays, women, or minorities. If people are concerned about freedom of speech they can go join a liberal forum.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Guerrilla22 that's not going to happen.

[RedCeltic]

I have to say that I strongly disagree. The word retard describes people with psychological disabilities, right.

Wrong. A Psychological disability would be Schizophrenia, bipolar, etc



When I say to someone "Stop acting like a retard" I pretty much mean "Stop acting like you have psychological disabilities".

No, you are saying “Stop acting like you are developmentally disabled.”

There is a difference between your use of the word and what MR is. Mental Retardation is a physical handicap that affects the development of the brain and people are not able to learn as rapidly as people with full use of their brains. There are different levels ranging from extremely low and unable to speak, or do any normal functions… to very high functioning in society and working at jobs etc..

If you had any inkling as to the tragic history of this population you would not be using such a word as an insult at all. As recent as the 1970’s and 1980’s, many of these people were kept in hell holes like Willowbrook State School on Staten Island New York (exposed by Geraldo Rivera) in which they were kept in warehouse like places, naked and covered in their own shit. They were kept in darkness and provided little food, sunlight, or activity.

Willowbrook has also been known for having conducted human experimentation on the people there. This has been backed up by some recently uncovered documents.

Pretty much kin to the concentration camps in Nazi Germany. The Stigma of “Retard” is so strong, that people who had family members who had this disability, were sent away, often never seen again.

You may have thought it was a Physiological problem due to the fact that earlier on in Victorian times, and early 20’th century they were sent to mental hospitals, where they were given lobotomies.

You are reflecting the mindset of a culture that has committed unspeakable horrors to this population over many generations.

Some good info:

Wikipedia has some good info on it and it’s history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developmental_disability

[RedCeltic]

Just reading back through my posts here and It seems like I'm making quite a big deal out of this. Personally, I don't really care if you use the word or not, regardless of the fact that I do personally consider it offensive and immature slang.


Also, I don't mean to sound like a "know it all" and shit, but this is actually the field I work in, and have been working in for quite some time now. You may have met someone with MR or another developmental disability like Autism or whatever... but this is the population I work with directly each and every day. I'm sure there are quite a many people who know much more about this field population and could explain things better than I. Just saying... no ego trip here. :D

[Red Menace]

Originally posted by Socialist [email protected] March 11, 2007 02:08 pm
Thats is completley beside the point. You can't compare words to murder for fucks sake, or to wife beating.

They seem pretty related to me. They are or were both socially acceptable. And as for my murder example, i was pointing out that intentions don't mean shit.


And I hardly see homophobia, racism and prejudice against mentaly disabled people as socialy acceptable, and neither should it be.
That is what this whole discussion is about! Because it has become socially acceptable. It has become okay to say something sucks, or is bad by saying it is 'gay' or 'retarded'.


I, and the people on the same side of this argument as me are not advocating prejudice. No, it merely sounds like you don't want to take action against it. Therefore you are no better than the ignorant people who use it.


We are meerly making the disinction between simple words and hate.
how is the word 'retarded' simple? You can't compare that word to 'stupid' or 'dumb'. Saying it emphasizes a hurtful connotation, it wasn't coined to enhearten or strengthen the mentally handicapped.

[EwokUtopia]

Good job! I support making this word not acceptable here.

If you dont mind me asking, is there a list of unacceptable words? Just out of interest.

[Sadena Meti]

This is one of the most moronic arguments. P.C. gone mad in a leftist forum.

How about that word? Moronic?

About a century (well, a bit more) ago, Moron and Idiot were actual psychological terms, actual diagnosis. There were wards in psych hospitals with Morons and Idiots. But times have changed and the words passed into common usage. Shall we ban those words as well because they were derogatory to the mentally ill?

In 10 more years, the word retard will have fallen into the same level of common usage as moron and idiot. The last time that word was used clinically was in the 1970's, since then it has been replaced.

You are all a bunch of moronic thought police idiots :D


It's just language!

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by EU+--> (EU)If you dont mind me asking, is there a list of unacceptable words? Just out of interest.[/b]

Nope, its not the words themselves that are 'unacceptable' its the context they're used - i.e. making prejudiced statements or using terms like 'gay' or 'retard' as pejoratives etc.


Originally posted by rev-[email protected]
bout a century (well, a bit more) ago, Moron and Idiot were actual psychological terms, actual diagnosis. There were wards in psych hospitals with Morons and Idiots. But times have changed and the words passed into common usage. Shall we ban those words as well because they were derogatory to the mentally ill?

No words are banned. What the CC has decided however is that people use a term like 'retard' pejoratively, i.e. 'shut up you retard!' - that will not be acceptable on the forum in the same way as saying 'omfg thats gay lol!' is not acceptable.

As for your argument, it's entirely fallacious. We live in the 21st century, perhaps if we lived in the 19th century or early 20th century when these terms were actually in-use in the way you describe your argument wouldbe valid. However seeing as words like 'moron' and 'idiot' no longer have any currency at all in the contexts you describe, any argument that relies on logic similar to what is being applied to using a term like 'retard' as pejorative would be fallacious - as im sure you're already aware.


revstoic
In 10 more years, the word retard will have fallen into the same level of common usage as moron and idiot.

Perhaps, but until this statement bears out, there is really no excuse - simply stating that over-time the meaning of a term will change doesnt mean people should continue to use that term in a prejudiced fashion.

[Angry Young Man]

Offs these bloody PC fascists!
Do you have a problem with moron? Adult with mental age of 8-12 (i.e. an M-L-ist)
Or idiot? Adult with mental age of about 5 (i.e. Rollo)
Or cretin? Somebody lacking in the thyroid hormone, causing mental retardation. Pretty harmless words, as they have been taken out of their original context.

And did Marx and Engels even have a plan for the mentally retarded? I haven't come across it, partly because, apart from the high functioning disorders like ADHD, OCD and AS, as they cannot work, they cannot be exploited. It's bloody christian fascists who go on about this sorta shit: the same who won't let a woman have an abortion if she 1: is threatening her life, 2: has been raped or 3:is in question about the infant's quality of life, mental health, et al.

A year ago there was a huge outcry about a woman who killed her severely autistic son, and I was "Err..yea... Where's the moral issue?"

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by Romantic [email protected] 13, 2007 02:40 pm
Offs these bloody PC fascists!
Do you have a problem with moron? Adult with mental age of 8-12 (i.e. an M-L-ist)
Or idiot? Adult with mental age of about 5 (i.e. Rollo)
Or cretin? Somebody lacking in the thyroid hormone, causing mental retardation. Pretty harmless words, as they have been taken out of their original context.

And did Marx and Engels even have a plan for the mentally retarded? I haven't come across it, partly because, apart from the high functioning disorders like ADHD, OCD and AS, as they cannot work, they cannot be exploited. It's bloody christian fascists who go on about this sorta shit: the same who won't let a woman have an abortion if she 1: is threatening her life, 2: has been raped or 3:is in question about the infant's quality of life, mental health, et al.

A year ago there was a huge outcry about a woman who killed her severely autistic son, and I was "Err..yea... Where's the moral issue?"
Just wondering.. .what year is it where you live? Here it's 2007, and don't consider it essential to execute people because they are not productive to the economy.

[ichneumon]

this is actually an interesting point

what about "are you deaf?"

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 07:00 pm
this is actually an interesting point

what about "are you deaf?"
What are you retarded? That's hardly the same thing... :D

I'm KIDDING! This argument is kind of pointless. I suppose given from examples of "moron" "Idiot" etc... that association atributed to words change with use in language. That's part of what a living language is.

It's just that... well to me, when someone says "Retarded" they don't sound to educated. Maybe I'm just a snob. :P

[Angry Young Man]

Originally posted by RedCeltic+March 14, 2007 12:21 am--> (RedCeltic @ March 14, 2007 12:21 am)
[email protected] 13, 2007 07:00 pm
this is actually an interesting point

what about "are you deaf?"
What are you retarded? That's hardly the same thing... :D

I'm KIDDING! This argument is kind of pointless. I suppose given from examples of "moron" "Idiot" etc... that association atributed to words change with use in language. That's part of what a living language is.

It's just that... well to me, when someone says "Retarded" they don't sound to educated. Maybe I'm just a snob. :P [/b]
Yup. What do you say? Something like "Oh you person deficient in thyroid hormone!"? I'm guessing you think swearing sounds uneducated as well and instead you say "Oh Horlicks" or "Oh rats". Are you my step-mum by any chance?

And have you ever had to live among retards?

And under communism, how do they contribute to the collective?

[RedCeltic]

Yup. What do you say? Something like "Oh you person deficient in thyroid hormone!"? I'm guessing you think swearing sounds uneducated as well and instead you say "Oh Horlicks" or "Oh rats". Are you my step-mum by any chance?

Ahh you got me.. I'm your step mum here to spy on you! :lol:

No, I'd actually attack their argument, or lack there of. As for swearing, I do that all the time on this board. I see your point though, there probobly isn't a difference, since if I tell some cappie for example that he is "full of shit" as opposed to "your retarded" it makes no difference as I'm still using slang, and am not actually indicating that the individual needs to go to the toiliet.


And have you ever had to live among retards?

Actually, that's what I do for a living. I work at a group home with profoundly mentally retarded people.


And under communism, how do they contribute to the collective?

From each according to their need, to each according to their ability right? So your saying if they have more need than ability than they don't deserve to live?

Come now. This really isn't about "morals". If you knew you were pregnent with a child who would be born with a disability, I don't think it's wrong to have it aborted. To kill the child after it's birth though? What purpous does that serve? After all, only time would tell if the child might have ability to perform some funtions.

A profoundly MR autistic guy at the house I work is able to perform some tasks with supervision. Often is asked, "Who will do the jobs nobody else wants in a collectivist society?" the answer is quite simply, those who can't do much else.

Naturally however, some individuals with major CP for example are unable to do much at all and even need assistance in eating. However they do live out happy lives in a limited way and I just think they should have a right to do so. You may not want to go through life in a wheelchair without the use of your arms, legs, speach etc... but than you weren't born that way. People who are, don't really know much else.

[Angry Young Man]

Robin? Robin Harlow??? It can't be! He never took into consideration left-wing politics!
Anyho The extremely low-functioning mental retardations may not even be able to do the tasks that nobody else wants to. Also, they may require constant supervision, so naturally the able but idle members will put down their names for that. And while they may be unpleasant, is it really worth begrudging your duties of cleaning toilets? They take about 5 mins each. And who's to say "retard" won't one day pass into common slang the way moron and cretin did?
So answer my question: HOW are they going to contribute to the collective?

[RedCeltic]

So answer my question: HOW are they going to contribute to the collective? So answer my question: HOW are they going to contribute to the collective?

Sorry, I thought I did.. They don't contribute, they are a constant drain of resources. OH MY! :o

[Ol' Dirty]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 09:54 pm
Anyone who uses the word in a perojative manner should be immiedetly restricted. Second offense should result in a ban.
I agree.

[Reuben]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 07:07 am
if it's not meant to offend, then I think we should leave it alone.
The point however is that words have a socially determined effect which is to some extent independent of the intentions of the person using those words. To take an extreme example to illustrate my point, I could decide tommorow in my head that I was going to use the word kike as a non-ethnically specifica insult. However this would not simply annul the social effects of using such a term.

Black rose's proposals are absolutely right.

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by Reuben+March 14, 2007 03:53 pm--> (Reuben @ March 14, 2007 03:53 pm)
[email protected] 11, 2007 07:07 am
if it's not meant to offend, then I think we should leave it alone.
The point however is that words have a socially determined effect which is to some extent independent of the intentions of the person using those words. To take an extreme example to illustrate my point, I could decide tommorow in my head that I was going to use the word kike as a non-ethnically specifica insult. However this would not simply annul the social effects of using such a term.

Black rose's proposals are absolutely right. [/b]
Actually, I can make a specific example where I did something similar unknowingly when I was a teenager.

I went with my mom to visit my grand mother at Mount Sinai Hospital in Manhattan. After which we went out to eat to a fairly fancy place. I hadn’t thought we were going to eat out and felt quite disheveled. For some reason I had thought “Heb” was slang for dirty, or disheveled. So while going into this restaurant who’s other patrons were like 80% Jewish, I said to my mom, “I feel like such a Heb going in here.” She turned 20 shades of red and took me outside to beat me senseless.

[Entrails Konfetti]

I'm guessing that most of you were in mainstream education classes at school.
This wasn't so for me, I was in the "special" classes, and I don't mean gifted.

While it is true how we called eachother "retards" (and this would lead to, who is more retarded), It was considered a worse thing to be called "retarded" by people who were mainstream, or gifted.

Might I remind you all that most of the kids in these "special" classes come from working-class backgrounds.

So really, you have to be careful about who to use that word around.

Afterall there is no "developmentally disabled pride"-- the special olympics, I think are actually a way of pointing out how disabled people are, "Wow, I didn't know people with down-syndrome can do that". Yet the athletes are good enough to be put in the real olympics, they remain in the "special" olympics.

[Ol' Dirty]

Originally posted by Romantic [email protected] 14, 2007 12:18 pm
Robin? Robin Harlow??? It can't be! He never took into consideration left-wing politics!
Anyho The extremely low-functioning mental retardations may not even be able to do the tasks that nobody else wants to. Also, they may require constant supervision, so naturally the able but idle members will put down their names for that. And while they may be unpleasant, is it really worth begrudging your duties of cleaning toilets? They take about 5 mins each. And who's to say "retard" won't one day pass into common slang the way moron and cretin did?
So answer my question: HOW are they going to contribute to the collective?
Got altruism?

It would be illogical to kill one who is retarded. In a modern society, if you just feed the poor person and give them love you might feel, y'know, good about yourself?

Maybe I'm just missing a chromosome, but it makes sense to me.

:)