zionism

[man in the red suit]

yes, I finally opened my eyes. I recently read a book about it (by a leftist). It showed me the true meaning of zionism and how it is practically fascism. It strains the idea that the Jews are a "unique individual nation" and that they are better than everyone else. I had completely misinterpreted it. I thought that zionism was pure and simply, the desire for a Jewish homeland. i did not take into consideration the elements of imperialism which it incorporated. Maybe I need to read a book on it from a right-wing perspective but I finally realize what you guys were trying to tell me. I still am more sympathetic to israel as opposed to Palestine. I may have a new found sympathy for Palestine but I still think that Arafat is a complete liar and asshole. I just wanted you to know that I know what zionism stands for and I don't like it at all. I know that Blasphemy will have something to say to me and I'm sure some of you might want to curse me out on my thoughts about Arafat. I just wanted to know if you think I am interpreting zionism the same way that you see it. I am not trying to get on your good side. I simply see more things to zionism than I did before. i still question whether or not I am a disgrace to the Jewish religion now though. I'm sure there must be SOME anti-zionist Jews here right?............... RIGHT!?!?!?!?

[Xvall]

Yes, MITR.. Threre are pleanty of Anti-Zionist jews. Zionism is to Juudism as White Supremacy is to Whites. The reason I never liked Zionism is because it claimed that they have RIGHT to Israel, like a deed.. Not that they have RIGHT to a place to live, as everyone has RIGHT to a place to live. And I hate Arafart too, so don't worry. He should be shot. Preferably along with Sharon.

[Mazdak]

http://www.jtf.org/

go there, trust me, you will be very much astonished by what you read

[Xvall]

Mazdak..
I don't know if you're trying to support that link or what.. But you SHOULD be aware that it is nothing more than a 'flag waver' website, that hates arabs and anyone that is Islamic. The site specifically denounces the Koran. I can easilly denounce the Bible to show it is just as bad though.

[Mazdak]

No, i CERTIANLY DO NOT SUPPORT THAT WEBSITE AT ALL!!!

oh, i just fin it interesting how people dont criticize this organisation ever. People should be outraged.

[Xvall]

Thank goodness.. I thought for a moment you drifted away!

LEECH KILLER!

[Ymir]

Wow that site mazdak posted is harsh. IT proposes using neutron bombs on arab nations that have been known to have terrorists. Neutron bombs are like regular nukes except their radiation only lasts a few months, so basically it kills all the people then the israelis walk in and take the oil....and they call muslims "nazis". Another thing the JTF wants is for the U.S. to break off affiliation with the "anti-american" U.N. Another thing the JTF has on its list of priorities is to stop expel all foriegns once their visa time limit runs out and then stop all immigration into the U.S....

[Michael De Panama]

Oh, enough with the Palestine/Israel conflict. Stop wasting your energy in either side, you'll just make the situation worse than it is. Turn Israel into a giant lake for all I care. It would probably save a lot of lives. Call it, "Lake Who-gives-a-Damn". Land ownership is not something for a commie to fight for. Besides, the conflict will never end. Ever.

[Reuben]

Good for you MITRS, I am with you as a jewish anti-zionist, and no, you are no disgrace to judaism. My parents always used to get csalled self- haating jews for the stance they took on Israel. IN ethnic minority communities it is much harder to dissent, but we have to do so.

that jtgf site amazes me given that the jews in the west are an immigrant/refugee community. THIS SITE DOES NOT REPRESENT THE GREAT MASS OF JEWISH FEELINg. Traditionally jews in america have been at the forefront of the fight against racism as in the civil rights movement

[guerrillaradio]

The Israel-Palestine conflict has totally altered my perception of right and wrong and its relevance in today's world. I am very principled, however watching the infitada rage on and on, I find myself supporting any actions with a view to creating peace, regardless of right and wrong. This has to be the priority now, not whether or not tanks should be in the West Bank, or whether suicide bombing is justified, we have to look for peace, and our every action in the Middle East has to be part of longterm plans to achieve peace.

(PS - I'm not a hippy.)

[Reuben]

Yes but the pre-requisite to a lasting peace is justice, not least for the palestininians

[Rob]

Quote: from Reuben on 7:07 pm on June 28, 2002
Good for you MITRS, I am with you as a jewish anti-zionist, and no, you are no disgrace to judaism. My parents always used to get csalled self- haating jews for the stance they took on Israel. IN ethnic minority communities it is much harder to dissent, but we have to do so.

Well you two are lucky. My mom's called me a traitor for supporting the liberation of the Palestinian people. And she isn't even fully Jewish!

[DORRI]

[it had a mistake]


(Edited by DORRI at 1:28 am on June 29, 2002)

[DORRI]

congratulation MITRS,
continue your research ,so you'll find more reasons to hate zionism.i'll introduce you some resources later.
by the way , where is blasphemy?!!
zionism is racism

[suffianr]

I agree with your opinions on Zionism, but you see, whilst most of us rant and rave here in cyberspace, people are still getting killed over there on a daily basis...Unless any of you out there can actually look out your window and see people shooting at each other, kids throwing pebbles at APC's and old folks dodging claymores, well, it's very much academic at this point. I find it frustrating too, but what the hell are we supposed to do from the comfort of our living rooms?
Arafat is just a patsy...

[Mazdak]

I am still no leech killer, i loved those things!!!

Yes, Michael De Panama, i have always said the same thing. Use Roman strategy, burn down jeursalem and turn Israel into a Preserve for wild animals!! No more israel, no more bloodshed.

[DORRI]

it will help you to know more about zionism & israel if you read:
"the Founder Myths of Israeli Politics" by "Roger Garaudy"

[new democracy]

zionism=fascism!!! my goverment is fascist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NationalBolshevik]

Quote: from new democracy on 10:58 pm on Aug. 6, 2002
zionism=fascism!!! my goverment is fascist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who needs a Fascist Yid?

[Mazdak]

Ha, NB was banned, oh well....

[honest intellectual]

Yeah, he only lasted 6 posts! That's vigilance, Malte!
Read the 'seven-point plan' on that jtf.org site, and the bit about the blacks in the USA

[Mazdak]

you can thank me for the link later. :P

[Nateddi]

HI why are you hailing the bannage of a member just because you do not agree with their views.

Do you consider yourself an authoritarian or libertarian socialist?

[Edelweiss]

There is no place for fascists in a leftist community, it's simple as that. I know NationalBolshevik's views from theLyceum, he's fascist piece of shit, no question.

[new democracy]

I'm sure there must be SOME anti-zionist Jews here right?............... RIGHT!?!?!?!? yes!!! i am!!!! i realy want to see the state of israel vanish!!!

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from new democracy on 2:15 pm on Aug. 10, 2002
I'm sure there must be SOME anti-zionist Jews here right?............... RIGHT!?!?!?!? yes!!! i am!!!! i realy want to see the state of israel vanish!!!


I'm an anti-zionist jew...or atleast i would be, If I wasn't black, and I wasn't christian.

but once I jump those two hurdles its all good

[new democracy]

what is the name of the book?

[Blasphemy]

man in the red suit:

i totally respect your opinion, but i must say a few things anyway.

the most simplistic definition of zionism is the notion that the jewish people deserve an independent state, where they will be able to govern themselves. different people interpret zionism in different ways. the most popular school of zionism claims that the jews deserve a state in the land of israel, also known as palestine.

in this specific school of zionism there are different prespectives. some do believe that only the jews deserve to live there, and that the palestinians should be deported to other arab nations, and mainly jordan. i strongly oppose that notion. i look upon it as fascit, intolerant and racist.

the most common understanding of zionism nowadays is that both the jews and the palestinians deserve a free state in the land. organizations like gush shalom (peace block) and shalom achshav (peace now) support this notion.

now, you can say that this notion is also fascist, due to the history of the state of israel. palestinians were deported from their homes which were in what is modern israel today. i believe that most of the palestinians were not deported, but left out of their own free will because their leaders convinced them that they will be able to eradicate israel, and then they will be able to return to their homes. some, of course, were deported by extremeist organizations such as Lehi (fighters of israel's independance) and Etzel (nation military organization). the hagana (the defence) - the main underground organization during the israeli struggle of freedom - did not use such fascist methods. you can disagree with me, you can quote me books that say otherwise, you can call me a fascist, but i, too, can quote books written by leftists which back me up.

to conclude: zionism, in its purest sense, is not racist. some people developed more fascist elements around it, but it is only a minority of the people.

[man in the red suit]

You are absolutely right.

zionism is only evil if you interpret the way the leftists do. zionism can be interpreted in many different ways. If you mean it to be the first definition you gave, then of course anyone would have to be a nazi to disagree with you. But if you look at it from the classic leftist perspective, then it is fascism. I overexagerated this thread. Zionism is not horrible, it is only horrible if you look at it a certain way.

And i would just like to point out what you said about The Palestinians leaving their land. I couldn't of had said it better myself. they left because their political leaders told them to do so, not because the israelis pushed them out with force. what a crock of shit. the Arabs are always lieing and using propaganda to get us to sympathize their "cause." They will only be happy in a world free of Jews. I full-heartedly support Israel as opposed to Palestine but I can not truly say that I, myself,am a zionist.

[Blasphemy]

i think you got left and right mixed up. the rightist conception of zionism is the fascist one, while the leftist one is the tolerant one.

i'll give you another example on the different concepts of zionism. the officers who signed the combatant letter (www.seruv.org) claim that refusing to occupy and oppress is zionism, while people like MK benjamin elon, claim that deporting the palestinian population is zionism. zionism is very abstract.

[new democracy]

how can you justify zionism!? it allows every jews to get israeli citizenship but palestinians refuggees cant return to israel!!!! and blasphemy, you didn't say anything about the military law that was in the arab zones between 1,948-1,966!!!!!! you didn't say anything about the new law that say that the government can make setelments for jews only!!!! and if zionism is so great, why does the israeli government always discriminate arab citizens? and dont say they have rights because the law that say that arab citizens are equal citzens is only official!!! the government dont even try to enforce it!!!!

(Edited by new democracy at 5:24 pm on Aug. 29, 2002)

[Blasphemy]

did you even read my posts? i said that zionism can be grasped in different ways. the way sharon grasps it is very different from how i do. i don't justify the jewish settelements in the territories, or the racist laws, etc. read and understand the posts you are replying to before getting all worked up.

[new democracy]

i did read it. the fact that i read it doesn't mean that i agree with it. israel is the only state that is officially should be only for some race. i mean, how many state's let only one race to immigrate? everybody, no matter what is their race can immigrate to australia. everybody, no matter what is their race can immigrate to canda. everybody, no matter what is their race can immigrate to britain. why does kurds, blacks, chinese, can immigrate to israel? and no israely government, even the tolerant(as you say)governments, tried to help the arabs.

[andresG]

I was surprised to see that link to the JTF website.
That show is on the air every Tuesday in New York on Queens Public Acess Television.

It is very hard to watch that show without going crazy with anger.

[Blasphemy]

i thought you didn't read what i wrote because your post still looks at only one kind of zionism, while i explained that there are many.

once again, i will say for the second time (and i'll say a third time if you still don't understand), the type of zionism that the government adopted as its policy is a racist one, although the zionism supported by a very large portion of the israeli public is tolerant.

here, i will say it again in a different way in simpler words: government adopted racist zionism, while most people adopted tolerant zionism.

and a fourth time: government = intolerant zionism. most people = tolerant zionism.

get it now?

[new democracy]

i talked about the israely labor party. they dont consider tolerant?

[new democracy]

well answer this: all the israeli governments were intolarent?

[Blasphemy]

of course not. i'm talking about the government in office now. look at yitzhak rabin's term. the peace process started, the economical gaps between arab and jews in israel narrowed greatly, the israeli army started to withdraw from the territories and arabs knesset members were a part of the coalition for the first and only time.

before rabin, the different israeli governments systematically discriminated the arab citizens in israel. i never denied it, and i even wrote a large paper about it for school this year.

[new democracy]

in rabin there were arab ministers?

[Blasphemy]

no.

[new democracy]

so on what coalition you talked about?

[Blasphemy]

a party doesn't have to have ministers in order to be part of the coalition. being a part of it means you are signed on an agreement that you will vote in favor of the government, and your people will get positions in return. the arab parties did not require minister positions, but they got people into different comittees in the knesset, and the government helped them when they put new bills to vote.

[new democracy]

still, i can't say i agree with zionism, because it is nationalist. you can't deny that.

[Blasphemy]

if you mean nationalist in a way that it looks at israel as superior to other nations, that is also variable, and can change from person to person, as i mentioned before.

if you mean nationalist in a way that supports the existance of nations, then it is nationalist by definition.

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from Blasphemy on 4:59 pm on Aug. 29, 2002
i think you got left and right mixed up. the rightist conception of zionism is the fascist one, while the leftist one is the tolerant one.

i'll give you another example on the different concepts of zionism. the officers who signed the combatant letter (www.seruv.org) claim that refusing to occupy and oppress is zionism, while people like MK benjamin elon, claim that deporting the palestinian population is zionism. zionism is very abstract.


I did not get them mixed up. I am just saying that the right wing version is the one that the leftists interpret it as and vice versa.