International Women's Day

[Ander]

If you were not aware, today is International Women's Day. What I wanted to know was if this day is somehow inherently discriminatory? Does this mean that every other day is men's day? I can't decide whether this is a good or bad thing. Discuss.

[Knight of Cydonia]

i actually never heard about International Women's Day, and i've made a thread about this in Learning.

[TC]

International (Working) Women's Day is principally a socialist holiday and is a public holiday in socialist states.

http://www.marxist.com/lenin-working-womens-day080306.htm

Theres nothing sexist about it, its like May 1st as international workers day.

[Mujer Libre]

I think if it draws attention to the fact that every other day is (in effect) Men's Day, then International Women's Day is doing its' job.

[TC]

Originally posted by Mujer [email protected] 08, 2007 10:39 pm
I think if it draws attention to the fact that every other day is (in effect) Men's Day, then International Women's Day is doing its' job.
Well that would be a gross misinterpretation. It is not a fact that every other day is 'mens day', and thats the type of female identitarian psudo-feminism that has nothing to do with what was a marxist woman's holiday.

If you want to make such a silly statement like that, a more reasonable one might be that every day is a day for bourgeois men and women in capitalist states. Men in general are not the oppressor/enemies/whatever.

[Ander]

Thank you for the history behind this TC, that actually cleared up quite a lot. I looked further into it and found that the holiday was actually first observed by the Socialist Party of America in the early 1900's.

I didn't actually mean that every other day is men's day, I just was unsure as to whether this holiday was a good one or had discriminatory elements behind it.

[TC]

no its quite a good lefty holiday.

mothers day and fathers day, those are reactionary holidays :-p.

[Pawn Power]

From the Arab News
http://www.arabnews.com/cartoon/2007/03/08.jpg

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

This was a pretty big deal down here. It also coincided with the day of George Bush's arrival in my town. So we celebrated International Women's Day with a march down a central avenue which doubled as a protest against Bush, Lula, neoliberalism, capitalism, imperialism, sexism, racism, police repression and the right in general. All sorts of leftist parties were present, most prominently the MST (landless rural workers for land reform), PSTU (United Socialist Workers - Trots), PCdoB (anti-revisionist M-L Maoists), PC (M-L), PSOL (socialism & freedom party), PT (worker's party), and all sorts of unions. It gathered between ten and twenty thousand people.

After about two hours of peacefully marching down almost 2 kilometers of the avenue, we stopped marching on account of the rest of the avenue was closed for the manifestation and open for traffic. The anarchists I guess grew bored of not going anywhere, so they decided to fuck some shit up. They invaded the other three lanes of the avenue (divided from the three lanes in which the march took place by a median). The cops began to charge the anarchists. We immediately joined with the anarchists to resist the the pigs by throwing sticks (from our signs), pieces of trash, and rocks at the police. We managed to "injure" eighteen pigs. But they kept charging into "our side of the street" whilst beating demonstrators indiscriminately with nightsticks, shooting at us with rubber bullets, and tear gas. We joined together with locked arms in a mass of people and pushed the pigs away, onto the other side of the street. We held our ground and only suffered 5 injuries. The demonstration lasted for about another two hours with speakers condemning Bush's presence in our city, Bush's policies on Latin America, America's war in Iraq, and Brazil's military presence in Haiti. We burned at least two US flags. Several comrades were arrested.

[Guerrilla22]

Good job, hopefully Bush gets greeted in the same manner in every country he visits

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Comrades continued to demonstrate in front of his hotel this morning. I didn't go because I had school. I imagine not many people showed up. His hotel is situated in a very affluent outlying borough where not many activists live and not nearly as accessible as the avenue where yesterday's demonstration took place. It's delightful how lightly people take the subject of assassinating Bush. I heard dozens of people in normal settings (not the protest) say that they'd like to kill Bush, that they'd kill Bush if they had the chance, or that they'd be glad if he was killed. In a perfectly calm tone, very "matter-of-factly".

[Adam Rand]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 07:50 pm
If you were not aware, today is International Women's Day. What I wanted to know was if this day is somehow inherently discriminatory? Does this mean that every other day is men's day? I can't decide whether this is a good or bad thing. Discuss.
Or does it mean that women are somehow to be seen better and should get their own day?

Well, though I have no problem with this day (or most other weird celebration days), it is slightly weird that one gender should be picked out and get their own day. I thought the idea was to be equal, not equal with slight advantages....or maybe I misunderstood equality. Happens all the time.

[Sentinel]

Originally posted by Tragic Clown+--> (Tragic Clown)
Originally posted by Mujer [email protected]
I think if it draws attention to the fact that every other day is (in effect) Men's Day, then International Women's Day is doing its' job. Well that would be a gross misinterpretation. It is not a fact that every other day is 'mens day', and thats the type of female identitarian psudo-feminism that has nothing to do with what was a marxist woman's holiday.

If you want to make such a silly statement like that, a more reasonable one might be that every day is a day for bourgeois men and women in capitalist states. Men in general are not the oppressor/enemies/whatever[/b]

Not 'men in general', but the patriarchal social order. Oh, but you don't believe that exists, right? :(


Adam Rand
Or does it mean that women are somehow to be seen better and should get their own day?

Well, though I have no problem with this day (or most other weird celebration days), it is slightly weird that one gender should be picked out and get their own day. I thought the idea was to be equal, not equal with slight advantages....or maybe I misunderstood equality. Happens all the time.

So according to you men and women are currently totally equal internationally, and this 'weird' event now shifts the balance in a way that women are 'better off' with it? Shit, we men better watch out, we'll find ourself heavily oppressed before we know it! :o

What&#39;s with the username btw? <_<

[Adam Rand]

Originally posted by Sentinel+March 10, 2007 01:08 am--> (Sentinel &#064; March 10, 2007 01:08 am)
Adam Rand
Or does it mean that women are somehow to be seen better and should get their own day?

Well, though I have no problem with this day (or most other weird celebration days), it is slightly weird that one gender should be picked out and get their own day. I thought the idea was to be equal, not equal with slight advantages....or maybe I misunderstood equality. Happens all the time.

So according to you men and women are currently totally equal internationally, and this &#39;weird&#39; event now shifts the balance in a way that women are &#39;better off&#39; with it? Shit, we men better watch out, we&#39;ll find ourself heavily oppressed before we know it&#33; :o

What&#39;s with the username btw? <_< [/b]
Oh absolutely not. Women on the whole are probably more discriminated, but, in my opinion, there are also the opposite cases, which are not to be forgotten either. I personally want equality, not an added up equality. An International Women&#39;s day sends out the wrong message for two reasons, for one it discriminates against men, which do not have a special day for themselves, on the other it supports the idea that there should be some sort of separation. In my opinion both are counterproductive. Though, I personally don&#39;t have a much better way of achieving the goal of equality I feel this is a step in the wrong direction.


As for the username, I found it funny, just read Atlas Shrugged, and John Galt was taken. So, I settled for this...I personally appreciate the irony. I hope I don&#39;t lose my rights to post here quite yet.


[edit] Also, sorry about the messed up quote, I am not familiar with the system yet, working on it.

[edit2] Heureka&#33;

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by AR+--> (AR)An International Women&#39;s day sends out the wrong message for two reasons, for one it discriminates against men [/b]

Having a day dedicated to highlighting the oppression as well as the triumphs of women is not &#39;discrimination&#39; in ANY plausible sense of the term.


Originally posted by [email protected]

which do not have a special day for themselves

We dont live in a matriarchal society, and mens achievements are not routinely played down, rather they are celebrated ALL the time, they&#39;re not written out of history etc. etc. - your argument would make sense if social reality was something approaching the opposite of what it actually is.


AR

, on the other it supports the idea that there should be some sort of separation.

Or maybe it supports the idea that women shouldnt be ignored or treated like shit :rolleyes:

Instead of being a day to highlight the achievements (as well as the struggle of women in a patriarchal society), IWD is some kind of anti-male invention, that perpetuates the gender divide and &#39;discriminates&#39; against men, rrrrrrright. I suppose you think that affirmative action &#39;discriminates&#39; and liberal things like &#39;black history month&#39; discriminates against whites too?

[Adam Rand]

Originally posted by black rose+March 10, 2007 05:26 am--> (black rose @ March 10, 2007 05:26 am)
Originally posted by AR+--> (AR)An International Women&#39;s day sends out the wrong message for two reasons, for one it discriminates against men [/b]

Having a day dedicated to highlighting the oppression as well as the triumphs of women is not &#39;discrimination&#39; in ANY plausible sense of the term.


[email protected]

which do not have a special day for themselves

We dont live in a matriarchal society, and mens achievements are not routinely played down, rather they are celebrated ALL the time, they&#39;re not written out of history etc. etc. - your argument would make sense if social reality was something approaching the opposite of what it actually is.


AR

, on the other it supports the idea that there should be some sort of separation.

Or maybe it supports the idea that women shouldnt be ignored or treated like shit :rolleyes:

Instead of being a day to highlight the achievements (as well as the struggle of women in a patriarchal society), IWD is some kind of anti-male invention, that perpetuates the gender divide and &#39;discriminates&#39; against men, rrrrrrright. I suppose you think that affirmative action &#39;discriminates&#39; and liberal things like &#39;black history month&#39; discriminates against whites too? [/b]
Women should not be treated like shit and there achievements should be equally accepted. But having one day entirely dedicated for them, regardless of circumstances is unequal.

And yes, actually, I do think that. Affirmative action certainly discriminates. Black History month does as well in my opinion. Why should there be a monthdedicated to one race...what about asian history month? History is a (sort of) science. It should just be equally accepted and understood. What is the message such a month is trying to send out? That blacks only need a month of history? That it has to be separated from the "normal" history?

[Mujer Libre]

Wow, you&#39;re such a liberal- I shouldn&#39;t waste my time... but here goes.

Days like Women&#39;s day are necessary and important precisely because we live in a patriarchal system which, apart from merely oppressing and disadvantaging women, serves to perpetuate their oppression by concealing women&#39;s achievements, women&#39;s histories and women&#39;s struggles. That is, the system conceals the fact that it exists.

This also applies to Black politics, and indeed to class struggle. The first step to liberation is awareness.

And Sentinel- you said it, not me, ;)

[Adam Rand]

Originally posted by Mujer [email protected] 10, 2007 11:28 am
Wow, you&#39;re such a liberal- I shouldn&#39;t waste my time... but here goes.

Days like Women&#39;s day are necessary and important precisely because we live in a patriarchal system which, apart from merely oppressing and disadvantaging women, serves to perpetuate their oppression by concealing women&#39;s achievements, women&#39;s histories and women&#39;s struggles. That is, the system conceals the fact that it exists.

This also applies to Black politics, and indeed to class struggle. The first step to liberation is awareness.

And Sentinel- you said it, not me, ;)
But there must be better ways than to give them one day and then leave it at that. Women on the whole should be equal....every day of the year.

[Mujer Libre]

But there must be better ways than to give them one day and then leave it at that. Women on the whole should be equal....every day of the year.
Did you even read my post?

Just SAYING that wmen should be equal is NOT going to make it happen, neither is pretending that they are.

Days like IWD help draw attention to women&#39;s struggles to gain liberationand thus hopefully strengthen these movements and accelerate the move toward liberation.

Equality is not equivalent to sameness in treatment when the system privileges one group over another.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by AR+--> (AR)But having one day entirely dedicated for them, regardless of circumstances is unequal. [/b]

As i said in my last post:

We dont live in a matriarchal society, and mens achievements are not routinely played down, rather they are celebrated ALL the time, they&#39;re not written out of history etc. etc. - your argument would make sense if social reality was something approaching the opposite of what it actually is.

Its not &#39;unequal&#39; to for ONE day highlight the achievements of women (when the other 364 women are still not getting the respect they deserve) for one day to also highlight the fight against the oppression of women, that still continues to this day. Men dont need a special day to be celerbrated, our society is patriarchal, the achievements of men are not routinely ignored or written out of history, and they are not oppressed because of their gender, one day of reversing the normal trends of society is not &#39;unequal&#39; its a gesture FOR equality.


And yes, actually, I do think that. Affirmative action certainly discriminates.

Then i suggest you read this thread:

http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=57049



Originally posted by AR+--> (AR)Why should there be a monthdedicated to one race...[/b]

I dont like the idea of black history month because its only a tokenistic gesture, but nevertheless its not &#39;discrimination&#39; against whites, that&#39;s laughable.


Originally posted by AR
It should just be equally accepted and understood.

This is the problem, and it applies very much to all the points raised in this discussion and many of the other threads currently active in this forum - that is not how social reality works. In reality history is a discipline that is still dominated by white men, popular history even more so - its not as simple as saying &#39;oh everything should just be equal&#33;&#39; when that is not how the world functions. Simply declaring equality will not acheive it, it wont even shift the norms towards that direction - and worse, attacking attempts to reverse a legacy of discrimination is thoroughly reactionary and only serves to reinforce racist norms.


Originally posted by AR

What is the message such a month is trying to send out?

That despite what is normative for &#39;popular history&#39;, the media etc. there are important people, events, issues etc. that exist beyond the history of white men, and of the ruling class.


[email protected]

That blacks only need a month of history?

Of course not, like i said, i dont really dig the idea, its a thoroughly liberal approach, ALL history should engage with issues like race where it is appropiate.


AR

That it has to be separated from the "normal" history?

No.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Thursday&#39;s demonstration and clash w/ pigs
http://brasil.indymedia.org/media/2007/03//375135.mp4
http://chiapas.indymedia.org/local/webcast...i_bush_sp_2.mp4
http://chiapas.indymedia.org/local/webcast...nti_bush_sp.mp4
http://chiapas.indymedia.org/local/webcast...i_bush_sp_3.mp4
pictures:
http://www.midiaindependente.org/pt/blue/2...03/375065.shtml

[Black Dagger]

Thanks RZ, but the link to pics isn&#39;t working, could you re-post it please? (some of it is cut off to &#39;...&#39;)

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

http://www.midiaindependente.org/pt/blue/2...03/375065.shtml (http://www.midiaindependente.org/pt/blue/2007/03/375065.shtml)
http://prod.brasil.indymedia.org/media/2007/03//375135.mp4
http://chiapas.indymedia.org/local/webcast...nti_bush_sp.mp4 (http://chiapas.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/anti_bush_sp.mp4)
http://chiapas.indymedia.org/local/webcast...i_bush_sp_2.mp4 (http://chiapas.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/anti_bush_sp_2.mp4)
http://chiapas.indymedia.org/local/webcast...i_bush_sp_3.mp4 (http://chiapas.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/anti_bush_sp_3.mp4)
http://prod.midiaindependente.org/pt/blue/...03/375216.shtml (http://prod.midiaindependente.org/pt/blue/2007/03/375216.shtml)
http://prod.midiaindependente.org/

[Black Dagger]

Cheers :D

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

in the second link in the last post
the long video
the woman in the beginning is chanting
ai, here comes Bush
and he doesn&#39;t come alone
he comes with the IMF

later after the cops start using explosives and tear gas, they start demanding that the pigs leave

[The Grey Blur]

Awesome Dr.RP. I think I spotted a comrade wearing a PSTU shirt.

International Women&#39;s Day acknowledges the equal workload of women which is often overlooked in our capitalist, patriarchal society and was created by Socialists.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

There were lots of PSTU members. Also some PCO members (also Trotskyists).