What should be done in Iraq

[( R )evolution]

I know that America has done a lot of instigating in Iraq in consideration to the Shia, Sunni militias. But this doesnt take away from the fact that there are hundreds of civilan deaths everyday based upon religious sects. I just dont see a viable solution, it just seems that not one side wants to put there weapons down. I know this is in the interest of America to have a divide Iraq, following there divide and conquer strategy but I just dont see any solutions. There is just constant fighting. What do you guys think should be done?

[Red Menace]

I'm not quite sure. I'm kinda torn between the subject. The U.S. could leave now, and stop the needless deaths of soldiers. but then we leave Iraq to fend for itself. But is wrong in itself because the U.S. has created such a huge mess there. They destroyed their way of life in the process of getting rid of a cruel government. What good is that freedom if they have no houses, no jobs, and nuts blowing themselves up in the streets everyday?

Or the U.S. can stay and fight it out, and clean up the shit they started. But that means more deaths on both sides. Anyways, people will die. I don't know what to do.

[Guerrilla22]

The first thing that needs to happen is the removal of the US and other foreign militaries from the country. US influence and activity in the country needs to end before any real peace can happen. Once the US leaves, al-Qaeda and other foreign fighters there to fight the US will likely leave to. If that is accoplished, Shia, Sunni and Kurdish leaders need to come together, call for a general cease fire and sit down together and draw up plans for a power sharing government, in which all sides will be involved and draw up a new constitution based on the actual wants and needs of the iraqi people, rather than keep the current government structure and connstitution, which was dictated to them by the US.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

Yeah, I think having the US and the others there is sort of an excuse for them to continue fighting. Remove the Colonialition from the picture and they'll sort something out, out of necessity.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 06:38 am
The first thing that needs to happen is the removal of the US and other foreign militaries from the country. US influence and activity in the country needs to end before any real peace can happen. Once the US leaves, al-Qaeda and other foreign fighters there to fight the US will likely leave to. If that is accoplished, Shia, Sunni and Kurdish leaders need to come together, call for a general cease fire and sit down together and draw up plans for a power sharing government, in which all sides will be involved and draw up a new constitution based on the actual wants and needs of the iraqi people, rather than keep the current government structure and connstitution, which was dictated to them by the US.
so basically there's 3 groups of people right? Shia, sunni and the Kurds?
why dont they just divide the country? other into 3?
or maybe the kurds can join who ever they want.. i dont know

[Guerrilla22]

The Kurds want their own independent state, the problem is that they want to incorporate parts of other countries into "Kurdistan". As to splitting the country into 3 parts, its been proposed already, however a major problem I see is that while the Shia, Sunni and Kurdish populations do tend to reside in specific parts on Iraq, it is not exclusively so. So we might end up with a situation like we had when India was split up. At anyrate, the decision with what do with Iraq must be made by the Iraqis in the end.

[ComradeR]

Originally posted by R_P_A_S+March 07, 2007 09:02 am--> (R_P_A_S @ March 07, 2007 09:02 am)
[email protected] 07, 2007 06:38 am
The first thing that needs to happen is the removal of the US and other foreign militaries from the country. US influence and activity in the country needs to end before any real peace can happen. Once the US leaves, al-Qaeda and other foreign fighters there to fight the US will likely leave to. If that is accoplished, Shia, Sunni and Kurdish leaders need to come together, call for a general cease fire and sit down together and draw up plans for a power sharing government, in which all sides will be involved and draw up a new constitution based on the actual wants and needs of the iraqi people, rather than keep the current government structure and connstitution, which was dictated to them by the US.
so basically there's 3 groups of people right? Shia, sunni and the Kurds?
why dont they just divide the country? other into 3?
or maybe the kurds can join who ever they want.. i dont know [/b]
The problem with the three state solution is oil. The vast majority of Iraqs wealth lies in it's oil wells, but these are split between the Shia south and Kurdish north leaving the Sunis in the west with nothing.

[KC]

Iraq Freedom Congress (http://www.ifcongress.com)

[Cheung Mo]

I think people should just grow up and stop blowing each other up over which of a 5000 year old mythological figure's two sons fathered an angry sky god's chosen people (The very idea of a people chosen by a deity and being able to subjugate others of a different race and creed is a fascist one. The Hebrews -- and a number of other ancient civilisations -- were among the first proto-fascists. Their reactionary and despicible actions -- as told in "sacred" scriptured -- should not be legitimised and honoured by by anyone.) or which cleric-caliph is the chosen successor of a delusional madman (now called a prophet) who lived nearly 1500 years ago.

[Noah]

so basically there's 3 groups of people right? Shia, sunni and the Kurds?
why dont they just divide the country? other into 3?
or maybe the kurds can join who ever they want.. i dont know

It's more complex than that, although still a minority there is a significant number of minorities particularly Assyrian Christians, if you're going to split the country along lines of religion (which is stupid anyway) and then the kurds, then all the minorities will also want their own land and rightly so because their safety will not be guaranteed in Shia, Sunni or Kurdish sectors.

I don't think it's a viable solution. I think the Americans should leave and the government should just have a no nonsense policy on terrorists. Right now, you're arrested, sent to trial and so on. Terrorists infiltrating the police and so on..I think they should just execute suspects on the spot, or within a matter of hours instead of a matter of months.

[KC]

Terrorists infiltrating the police and so on..

You mean Shia insurgents...

[Okocim]

a huge problem is not actually the different groups, it's the american tactic of "divide and rule" - playing the groups off against each other in order to maintain their rule over them.

Splitting the country into 3 is definitely not the solution, as someone already pointed out, two groups will get oil because they live in the oil regions, the other will get nowt.

[dso79]

Originally posted by Noah
I think they should just execute suspects on the spot, or within a matter of hours instead of a matter of months.

That’s pretty sick, dude. Everyone has a right to a fair trial and should be considered innocent until they are proven guilty, and even if they are guilty they shouldn't be executed. The death penalty is an inhuman punishment and not very effective.

Shiite death squads have already tried your method and murdered thousands of Sunnis whom they suspected of supporting the insurgents or the terrorists and it has only led to more bloodshed.

[PRC-UTE]

basically we should back all efforts by Iraqi workers to unify the country across class lines and create a socialist Iraqi republic free from the imperialists. there were efforts to estbalish a workers' red army there which I support.

Anyone have any updates on that, or what the WCPI are doing currently?

[bolshevik butcher]

The WCPIs main front; the Iraqi Freedom Congress has been doing a lot of good work in Iraq of late. Including organising trade unions, and fighting for the rights of gay people and women, in the face of both Imperialism and Islamism. They played a pivotal role in the major oil strikes in Basra that spread to the rest of the country late last year and are also organising "safety squads", democratic working class militias that protect working class areas and facilities, eg schools and hospitals from attack.

[Comrade_Scott]

simple solution... the u.s stay and clean up the shit they caused fucking pigs (sorry actual pigs :wub: ) and they should deal with the hell they have unleashed. people die such is life and these were volunteers not draft members so i have little sympathy (only have some for those who joined to pay for college and bills)

[Noah]

basically we should back all efforts by Iraqi workers to unify the country across class lines and create a socialist Iraqi republic free from the imperialists. there were efforts to estbalish a workers' red army there which I support.

The worker's / left movement in Iraq is practically dead, the Iraqi people are not ready for a revolution of this sort, I'm not saying it's impossible but a worker's state will not be possible until a long time from now.



in the face of both Imperialism and Islamism

This makes no sense, seeing as many Iraqis are religious - or more religious than we here in the west, look at the communist party of Iraq when they first started. They alienated themselves from the rest of society when the promoted an anti-Islam view and they never did after that.

Having a party that is moderate would be okay, although not ideal but being totally against Islam is totally stupid as most Iraqi people are fairly religious and it would be offensive.

[Ander]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 03:38 am
Once the US leaves, al-Qaeda and other foreign fighters there to fight the US will likely leave to. If that is accoplished, Shia, Sunni and Kurdish leaders need to come together, call for a general cease fire and sit down together and draw up plans for a power sharing government, in which all sides will be involved and draw up a new constitution based on the actual wants and needs of the iraqi people, rather than keep the current government structure and connstitution, which was dictated to them by the US.
As nice as this sounds, I seriously doubt the three groups who are currently fighting each other in a civil war are going to come together over a cup of tea and discuss the future of their nation. There is far too much sectarian violence; Iraq has reached a point where they're not only trying to kill the foreigners and get them out, but they're also knocking each other off in large numbers.

Iraq is fucked and I am really unsure as to how the people there plan on getting out of the pit that the US dug for them. America has some serious crimes to pay for in the Middle East but of course as usual they won't do shit.

[Americancommi]

Bassicly the U.S is employing the basic imperialist strategy of divide and conquer that the West has been using for hundreds of years. The U.S backs the Sunnite minority that they can fight and weaken the Sunnite majority. The U.S can't leave Iraq at this point, because if it does, the Shi'as will take power and work with Iran. The Chinese and Russians are on much better terms with Iran and the Shi'as so thet if they do take power, they will sell oil to them and not the U.S. At this point Iraq will either be taken over by the U.S. with a puppet government or else the different groups will unite in a most likely nationalist struggel to throw out America. If you don't believe that the U.S is the major force behind their civil divisions, please explain to me how they have been living in relative peace(not killing each other) for hundreds of years until the U.S invasion.

[piet11111]

i would prefer it if the country would be divided into 3 sections that are to be annexed by the surrounding country's.

since the poeple in those sections are sharing the same type of islamic tradition (sunni shia etc.) they should not be difficult to integrate into the neighbouring country's.
syria gets the kurds iran gets the shia and saudi arabia gets the sunni.

i think thats the best option as the neighbouring country's already have a strong military and police force capable of stopping the fighting.
sure many thousands of poeple will have to move to the sections they fit in but its a better option then a bloody civil war.

sorry if this sounds nuts but i really cant think of a better solution that involves the usa to get out and still having a police/military force to crush this civil war.
too bad the USA would oppose this idea as iran and syria are the "sworn enemy's"

[KC]

Uh, the Kurds want their own country; they'd never join Syria. Plus, the Kurdish independent movement includes part of Turkey, as well, I believe. Plus, Turkey would be completely against an independent Kurdish state and would probably take military action if necessary.

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by Jello+March 08, 2007 12:20 am--> (Jello @ March 08, 2007 12:20 am)
[email protected] 07, 2007 03:38 am
Once the US leaves, al-Qaeda and other foreign fighters there to fight the US will likely leave to. If that is accoplished, Shia, Sunni and Kurdish leaders need to come together, call for a general cease fire and sit down together and draw up plans for a power sharing government, in which all sides will be involved and draw up a new constitution based on the actual wants and needs of the iraqi people, rather than keep the current government structure and connstitution, which was dictated to them by the US.
As nice as this sounds, I seriously doubt the three groups who are currently fighting each other in a civil war are going to come together over a cup of tea and discuss the future of their nation. There is far too much sectarian violence; Iraq has reached a point where they're not only trying to kill the foreigners and get them out, but they're also knocking each other off in large numbers.

Iraq is fucked and I am really unsure as to how the people there plan on getting out of the pit that the US dug for them. America has some serious crimes to pay for in the Middle East but of course as usual they won't do shit. [/b]
That is about the only way they'll rnd the current violence. Certain leaders of the various groups have already called for something along those lines. the problems is that the US is still there and is insistent on keeping the current government and constitution, which the Sunnis have little part in.

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 04:03 am
Bassicly the U.S is employing the basic imperialist strategy of divide and conquer that the West has been using for hundreds of years. The U.S backs the Sunnite minority that they can fight and weaken the Sunnite majority. The U.S can't leave Iraq at this point, because if it does, the Shi'as will take power and work with Iran. The Chinese and Russians are on much better terms with Iran and the Shi'as so thet if they do take power, they will sell oil to them and not the U.S. At this point Iraq will either be taken over by the U.S. with a puppet government or else the different groups will unite in a most likely nationalist struggel to throw out America. If you don't believe that the U.S is the major force behind their civil divisions, please explain to me how they have been living in relative peace(not killing each other) for hundreds of years until the U.S invasion.
The US wasn't interested in dividing the Iraqi populace to this extreme. It's in their interests to see a stable Iraq, because they know how much credibility they've lost due to this war. An Iraq that has 100 people dying each day isn't something the Pentagon wants, as horrible as they may be.

If they can pacify Iraq, they believe they've won the war of words with Russia and Europe.

[luxemburg89]

it is a difficult situation - in my opinion if the majority of people wanted hussain out the west could have merely funded a people's revolution within the country, but thats probably just me dreaming. This shia-sunni division would probably exist no matter what method was employed.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by bolshevik [email protected] 07, 2007 09:09 pm
The WCPIs main front; the Iraqi Freedom Congress has been doing a lot of good work in Iraq of late. Including organising trade unions, and fighting for the rights of gay people and women, in the face of both Imperialism and Islamism. They played a pivotal role in the major oil strikes in Basra that spread to the rest of the country late last year and are also organising "safety squads", democratic working class militias that protect working class areas and facilities, eg schools and hospitals from attack.
that's good to hear; I recall the basra oil strike. there were conflicting reports about what sparked it, one article stated that it was due to the threats of privitisation of the oil fields, another was saying wages hadn't been paid to the workers there in some time.

I think some force like the WCPI are the only thing that can unite the people of Iraq across ethnic/religious lines to stop the spiralling sectarian conflict.

I used to be supportive of the armed resistance forces but the problem is that so many of them are sectarian and actually making the situation much worse.

[KC]

The US wasn't interested in dividing the Iraqi populace to this extreme. It's in their interests to see a stable Iraq, because they know how much credibility they've lost due to this war. An Iraq that has 100 people dying each day isn't something the Pentagon wants, as horrible as they may be.

If they can pacify Iraq, they believe they've won the war of words with Russia and Europe.


If they can "win" this war by stopping the civil war and maintaining the current Iraqi administration then they would have gained a lot more than just a "war of words". They'd also have another foothold in the Middle East, which could be used as a staging ground to put pressure on the neighboring countries; they'd gain a lot of control over the oil (not just in terms of profit from it but also as a political tool to wield at other countries).


it is a difficult situation - in my opinion if the majority of people wanted hussain out the west could have merely funded a people's revolution within the country, but thats probably just me dreaming. This shia-sunni division would probably exist no matter what method was employed.


This war wasn't about what the majority of people wanted; it was about US interests.

Secondly, the shia-sunni division wasn't nearly this bad before the invasion, and is only being exacerbated by the occupation and being exploited by various countries and groups within the region. So your assertion that this would always exist is false.


I think some force like the WCPI are the only thing that can unite the people of Iraq across ethnic/religious lines to stop the spiralling sectarian conflict.

Remember that the IFC is an aggregation of workers unions and political groups in the country and abroad, and not simply a "front" for the WCPI (the WCPI probably uses it as a front, but that's certainly not all that it is).

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by PRC-UTE+March 09, 2007 12:21 am--> (PRC-UTE @ March 09, 2007 12:21 am)
bolshevik [email protected] 07, 2007 09:09 pm
The WCPIs main front; the Iraqi Freedom Congress has been doing a lot of good work in Iraq of late. Including organising trade unions, and fighting for the rights of gay people and women, in the face of both Imperialism and Islamism. They played a pivotal role in the major oil strikes in Basra that spread to the rest of the country late last year and are also organising "safety squads", democratic working class militias that protect working class areas and facilities, eg schools and hospitals from attack.
that's good to hear; I recall the basra oil strike. there were conflicting reports about what sparked it, one article stated that it was due to the threats of privitisation of the oil fields, another was saying wages hadn't been paid to the workers there in some time.

[/b]
To be honest there was a range of issues. Privatisation, safety, the right to unionise, wages and not being paid were all issues in it I believe. It also developed into a strike that invovled more than just the oil workers.

I agree that groups like WCPI are the way forward. Class conscious organised labour appears to me to be the way forward in Iraq. It's not that i oppose the use of arms but overthrowing the American Imperialists for politicla islamism is still a pretty blaek future for the Iraqi working class.

[The Grey Blur]

An essay I wrote on Iraq just a short while ago. It echoes a lot of what Ewan and PRC-UTE are saying and contains a good deal of history on the class struggle in Iraq.

We must always keep in mind the the Imperialist military forces are the main catalyst of chaos in Iraq and not some sort of dampener.

[bolshevik butcher]

You wrote! You wrote! :angry: :(

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by bolshevik [email protected] 09, 2007 06:31 pm
I agree that groups like WCPI are the way forward. Class conscious organised labour appears to me to be the way forward in Iraq. It's not that i oppose the use of arms but overthrowing the American Imperialists for politicla islamism is still a pretty blaek future for the Iraqi working class.
Right, I agree with you there; the workers of Iraq have to drive out the imperialists but also fend off the reactionary anti-imperialists.

[Xiao Banfa]

The heavily religious population of Iraq are not ready for the WCPI.

Think it terms of what the most progressive achievable demands are.

If you trumpet a list of far-left demands before a population which is not ready for it, you will be shut down.

Organised labour is a good point of unity however.

[RNK]

Yes, it is important to keep in mind that in extremist Muslim circles, Communism is as much an "infidel" as the United States.

It is unfortunate but I don't see the situation in Iraq getting any better until someone akin to Saddam comes along to plunge the country into dictatorship... which, given the circumstances, would be a big improvement. For all the here-say about Saddam, nobody can argue against the fact that he did keep his country together. For the most part (and this is including the effects of the crippling UN sanctions of the 90's), all Iraqis had access to clean water, electricity, television, radio, etc, and there wasn't a single terrorist in all of Iraq (except maybe in the Kurdish north, where Saddam's influece was either extremely weak or non-existent). Those conditions would be ripe for a worker's revolution. Today, however, Iraq is all but controlled by countless militias, some of whom have immense military power. Communist groups in Iraq not only have to contend with harrassment from the US, but also from militias who attribute Communism with the Soviet Union and Russia.

[Dominick]

I am of the opinion that immediate withdrawal, followed by reparations from the US, is the best thing that can happen in Iraq; for the nature of the occupation and any foreign intereference only stimulates violence.

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by bolshevik butcher+March 09, 2007 07:14 pm--> (bolshevik butcher @ March 09, 2007 07:14 pm) You wrote! You wrote! :angry: :( [/b]
My bad :(


thearticlemeandewanwrote
The State of Iraq at the Moment

Iraq is entirely destabilised, economically, politically and socially and there is a lack of even the most basic freedoms. Unemployment has sky-rocketed; there is a lack of basic sanitation, energy and housing. Death squads are effectively the police, and vice versa. This has hit the working class particularly bad, unlike the professional middle classes they cannot leave the country and are left to rot in what is left of it.

These desperate circumstances and the subjugation of Iraq’s people have lead the working-class of Iraq to see Muslim fundamentalism and its vague promises as a solution and effective anti-Imperialist force. Sections of young working-class militants, particularly the Shia, now seek their salvation not in this life but in the next. Not only this but Islamic fundamentalism divides the resistance on itself with Shia fighting Sunni and vice versa. Regular sectarian attacks are carried out, nearly ever day, one Muslim sect against the next. On top of this, the armed resistance cannot hope to defeat the US war machine, without the support of the true power-holders in society – the organised working class. Standing opposed to the reactionary currents of the resistance there are such broad-based left groups as the Iraqi Freedom Congress, the Worker-Communist Party of Iraq and the Iraqi Oil Worker’s Trade Union, all of which have campaigned for women, worker and minority rights in present-day Iraq. The oil strikes of last year are an example of the class struggle in modern day Iraq. During these illegal strikes, oil was practically cut off, and Sunni and Shia fought side by side in the class struggle, effectively shutting down the economy. The Imperialists panicked reaction displays the power wielded by the oil sector workers. This must be harnessed by a revolutionary organisation if class consciousness is to develop to fully cut across the sectarian divide

We must look to the working class of Iraq for a solution, their ruling class is entirely compromised with the Imperialists and offers nothing but false promises while wages, conditions are cut and resources are opened to the free market plundering. We must appeal also to the economic conscripts of the Imperialist military as they also hold the power to end both the war and occupation of Iraq. We must let them see that a rifle is a weapon with a worker at both ends and that the invasion is nothing more than the extension of the same corrupt system which exploits them at home

1.The Imperialist armed forces are the main cause of conflict in Iraq.

2.A theocratic Iraq is no solution.

3.There is an Iraqi working-class and they are willing to struggle.

4.I support the efforts to build a mass working-class movement in Iraq.

[RedLenin]

As has been stated by many throughout this thread, the only solution to the problems facing the Iraqi people is the working class. In my opinion, we need a proletarian united front against imperialism and a war of liberation in two phazes.

The Iraqi labor movement, with solid leadership, needs to organize a united front on a class basis to wage war against the US imperialists. As this war is being waged, socialist demands need to be placed upon the puppet regime. Once the imperialists are driven from Iraq, the movement must immediately move on to the task of smashing the puppet regime. Throughout this whole process, the working class movement will get stronger and stronger, uniting more and more people on a class basis. Once the Proletariat becomes strong and united in Iraq, and once the war of liberation is completed, it may be possible to have a socialist revolution which brings the Proletariat to power.

Basically the Iraqi labor movement needs solid leadership and the determination to violently struggle against American imperialism and it's puppet regime. War of liberation, waged on a class basis, avoiding the dead ends of sectarianism and Islamism, seems to me to be the only way to create a mass-workers movement with the ability to take on the task of seizing power.

At the same time, we need to appeal to the rank and file of the US army. We need to spread dissent, disobedience, and desertion. As the US army is overwhelmingly composed of working class people, it could be possible to help many soldiers to see that their mission is to kill their fellow Proletarians. This combined strategy of waging a war of liberation and appealing to the rank-and-file of the US army can defeat the US imperialists in Iraq.

[Xiao Banfa]

The Iraqi working class must be the main force while bringing some other elements among the masses into the struggle.

It will be difficult to sort out the sectarian mess in Iraq and bring some order to the resistance.

I'm wary of solutions prescibed from the outside as it's very difficult to understand what the dynamics really are.

We should really concentrate on demonstating and organising for those imperialist nations to bring the troops home.