Christian Communism

[Resistencia]

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism

Is this serious? How can Christianity and communism merge? I know some people say Christ had socialist viewpoints (helping others and such), but didn't communism reject religion? :wacko:

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Well i don't think they will be Marxists.

Also, you have to understand that class antagonisms effect the religious as much as the non-religious. Clearly this is just a response to those class antagonisms. And, since its some kind of communism its not far off the bat. ;)

[RedStarOverChina]

"Christian communism", like Wikipedia correctly stated, is centered around Christianity.

They freely ignore most of theories central to Marxism in favor of a "God-worldview". Of course, they also attempt to disguise the most barbaric aspects of Christianity, but the central theme is still "Jesus saves".

[OneBrickOneVoice]

I would contact the 3 "christian communists" on this board: Defy, Red Menace, and Democratic Socialist.

Personally, it is an oxymoron. Communism implies a materialist scientific basis, not a backwards, traditionalist, fairy-tale basis. The RCP has written extensivly on this subject.

[Rawthentic]

Jesus could not have been a socialist. Socialism is grounded in certain material conditions, which is why socialism could not have been possible in a time when people thought the earth was flat.

[cb9's_unity]

You can never be religous and then a pure communist but you can extremely damn close. Yah communism uses materialism but it is very much based around class struggle and i don't neccesarily think you have to be a pure materialist to believe in that.

As for communism and christianity, I think a mix could be very close to communism but as for the actual Christian Communism, i'd have to do more research on what they believed about class struggle, and the dictatorship of the proletatiat and such.

[( R )evolution]

I dislike chrisitans communist because there ideas doesnt really inter mix with each other but in all reality if they want to help in the revolution than please by all means do. Just because they are blinded by there faith doesn't mean they cant hold a rifle :)

[RGacky3]

people tend to think that Communism BEGAN with Karl Marx, which it did'nt, the ideas have been around for a long long time. The early christians practiced Communism as did other pre-Marxist groups. As for the so-called scientific nature of Communism, not nessecarily, many follow it on a moral basis.

Most Christian-Communists reject the mainstream so-called christian religions as not really christian (the same way a lot of communists regect the USSR, North Korea, China and the such as examples of genuine Socialist Societies).

[Owen-]

Im sorry, I just had to

[RedStarOverChina]

The word "communism" emerged after the French Revolution to describe the increasingly violent uprisings of the newly emerged proletariat class.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the archaic superstition that is Christianity.

Early Christian "communards" were hermits, NOT revolutionaries.

I hate it when people try their utmost to lower communism to the level of a superstitious belief.

[apathy maybe]

In response to this, "Personally, it is an oxymoron. Communism implies a materialist scientific basis, not a backwards, traditionalist, fairy-tale basis. The RCP has written extensivly on this subject.", and other people's comments on the matter ... (funny how often I have to say this, perhaps I should do a redstar2000 and simply link to a website ...)


Communism is simply a society (class less and state less) where goods and resources are shared in common. Often with the economic maxim, "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need" (incidentally Marx wasn't the first to say this). Nothing in there about materialism.

It might well be compulsory to be a materialist to be a Marxist, but not to be a communist.

Thus it is possible to have a communist society that is centred around religion. Whether or not you think that (for example) a Christian society that was communist was really Christian, is in fact irrelevant. Christianity has some many interpretations and sects, you can claim anything you want and still call yourself a Christian.

So you answer your question Resistencia, Marxism doesn't reject religion as such, but is definitely materialist. But don't confuse Marxism with communism, as it is only one possible type of communism (or theory about communism).

Other types include Anarchist Communism, for example.

[freakazoid]

Don't forget Christian Anarchy. :D


Just because they are blinded by there faith doesn't mean they cant hold a rifle

Yup yup, :)


Most Christian-Communists reject the mainstream so-called christian religions as not really christian (the same way a lot of communists regect the USSR, North Korea, China and the such as examples of genuine Socialist Societies).

Also a yup.

If you would like to visit a site that is about Christian Anarchy then you can visit, www.jesusradicals.com :D

Or if you would like to read about it Leo Tolstoy and Jacques Ellul have written about this subject. :D

[OneBrickOneVoice]

It would be nice if Marx's writings just amounted to this


"from each according to their ability, to each according to their need"

and there was


Nothing in there about materialism.

However, once you read Marx and Engel's works you'll find that there is in fact "stuff in there about materialism."

[apathy maybe]

Apart from the fact that I said that while Marxism might be materialistic, communism is not always.

Would it make more sense if I said it this way?


Communism is simply a society (class less and state less) where goods and resources are shared in common. Often with the economic maxim, "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need". Nothing in there about materialism.

(Incidentally Marx wasn't the first to talk about "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need".)

So again, while Marxism might well be a Materialistic ideology, it is simply one possible variation of communist thought.

Confusing communism with Marxism is a simple mistake as confusing Communism (as in the USSR etc.) with communism. Only ignorant people equate the USSR with communism (as in class less etc.), and only ignorant people equate Marxism with communism and say that they are the same.

[Guerrilla22]

Yet another group of highly confused individuals. I put them in the same group as national anarchist, orange catholics and jews for jesus.

[Question everything]

I don't know I mean they are probably very liberal in there beliefs (most of them), they simply think that there was a preacher named Jesus who did great things, this does not stop them from supporting any other themes of marxism, as a matter of fact the way I see it doesn't believing in an afterlife creat anti-materalism, less greed but motivation to work hard? I'm no expert on the subject but from my view point that isn't all that bad.


Yet another group of highly confused individuals. I put them in the same group as national anarchist, orange catholics and jews for jesus.

wow those groups are messed up! :wacko:

[Xiao Banfa]

You can believe in God and believe that Karl Marx stumbled on some universal truths.

You can believe in common sense and justice with no spritual force at work (most socialists) or you can believe in common sense and justice with a spiritual force at work.

We should really get on with the struggle for socialism and leave peoples' relgions alone.

If religion is really so misguided then that will surely iron itself out over time.

[Entrails Konfetti]

From what I know about the Christian Communists, is that they believed Jesus lived in communes, practiced equal distribution of resources, and believed that social classes were "evil". They take on Communism as a moralistic and ethical sense, but then again some Marxists and Anarchists do this aswell.

Christian-Communists probably believe that Christianity is perverted by rulers to accumlate wealth and exploit people, " I'm rich because God wants me to". Instead they, ( I assume) believe Christianity helps them deal with death, lifes troubles, and centers themselves.

The problem is, is that they believe Communism to be their moral society-- which opens another can of worms: They want Communism, they want to impose their morallity.

[manic expression]

I completely disagree with (and reject) Christianity on many grounds, but I don't think it's inherently contradictory. You can believe one thing about the concept of divinity while adhering to an ideology that is materialist. However, if one interprets the Bible literally (as the authors said it was supposed to be interpreted as), it becomes practically impossible (since stoning people and condemning them for different ideas isn't really socialist or communist).

That being said, as long as the individual recognizes that their political ideology has to do only with the material world and keeps their beliefs centered around the idea of divinity, I don't think there is too much of a problem in terms of consistency.

[Red Menace]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 08:49 pm
I would contact the 3 "christian communists" on this board: Defy, Red Menace, and Democratic Socialist.


I use to be Defy, i just changed my name.

concerning the subject, I don't really wanna discuss or debate it, out of fear that I will further allienate myself from my comrades here on this forum. It's pretty much like being a stalinist on this forum.

[Pilar]

Christian Communism is not a new thing. There was an attempt at such a model community within the United States in the 1830s. (This period saw many expirimental communites w/ various philosophies and varying results.)

One can argue that early Latter Day Saints practiced something of this kind, and even had a movement toward community owned property, during the time they were attempting to organize as the State of Desaret (spelling?), what is today Utah. If any organization could ever pull off Christian Communism it would be them.

It all makes sense if you view communism as a general concept, and Marxism as a specific type of communism, which argues that religion is a false institution.

But there are plenty of bushmen in Botswana who are communists and not Marxists.

[freakazoid]

They want Communism, they want to impose their morallity.

This is not true, I do not wish to impose my morallity on anyone, although the rest of what you said seems to sum it up I think.


out of fear that I will further allienate myself from my comrades here on this forum. It's pretty much like being a stalinist on this forum.

:D

Also, what are Orange Catholics?

[Fodman]

i heard that their beliefs are based on the disciples (post-Christ) were communists - that is, they helped people, whilst having no leaders

i think they are communists, that hold the morality taught in Christianity, but do not see a God as being an almighty-authority figure over the world - as this would contradict communism

[RedKnight]

There is liberation theology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology). Plus there are religious communitys, like the Hutterites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutterites) who live communaly. What was later to become the Communist League, the League of the Just, was initially a utopian socialist and Christian communist grouping following the ideas of Gracchus Babeuf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gracchus_Babeuf). Here is an essay by Rosa Luxemburg on the subject. http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/...sm-churches.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1905/misc/socialism-churches.htm) I'm not one myself though. I'm an atheist.

[chimx]

Might I suggest you read some titles by Jacques Ellul, a rather famous theologian with anarchist and Marxist leanings. Anarchy and Christianity is particularly good, but I am told that his book Jesus and Marx is also well written.

His biblical exegesis in the former is particularly interesting. He points to many passages, such as chapter 4 of Luke, which suggests that "satan" is the proprietor of all governments. The Book of Revelation as well as the OT is also looked at a great deal.

The bible has countless authors, and evolved out of countless centuries of oral and written development. If there is one thing that can be said of the bible, it is that it is dynamic and open to multiple interpretations. There is not necessarily a set value system intrinsic to it that has lasted for numerous millennia (except for perhaps the belief in god), but rather biblical beliefs are in constant flux given the values of the current historical epoch.

[MrDoom]

Christian Anarchism: n.
See "Anarcho-Totalitarianism".

[Guerrilla22]

[/QUOTE]Also, what are Orange Catholics? [QUOTE]

They're apparently a group of Catholics in Northern Ireland that are loyal to the UK. :wacko:

[freakazoid]

Christian Anarchism: n.
See "Anarcho-Totalitarianism".

You haven&#39;t paid any attention to what I have said before at all. <_<



They&#39;re apparently a group of Catholics in Northern Ireland that are loyal to the UK. wacko.gif

Thanks for the definition.

[apathy maybe]

This thread (and others like it) do tend to demonstrate the ignorance and dogma of many on RevLeft, which is also found in the real world.

Simply because a person or group does not share your exact political, religious, ethical beliefs, doesn&#39;t mean that,
1) you can&#39;t work with them,
2) that they are wrong,
3) that you are correct.

Simply because you might think of yourself as a Marxist and a communist, doesn&#39;t mean that all communists have to be Marxists. Just because you might think that anarchism is only about class war, doesn&#39;t mean you are correct.

Face the facts people: you don&#39;t define political terms, everyone does.

Now stop being so damn dogmatic about labels.

[RGacky3]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 13, 2007 04:35 pm
Face the facts people: you don&#39;t define political terms, everyone does.

Now stop being so damn dogmatic about labels.
I strongly Second that.

[Vargha Poralli]

Simply put religious communism/anarchism is idealistic.

I agree with apathy maybe. Marxists should have understood that Marx and Engels were highly inspired by the Utopian Socialists like Robert Owens,Charles Fourier and many others who were primarily inspired by Christianity.

Marxism is a movement which is based on facts not principles.This is the one which sepeartes us from the Utopians. So religious belief should not be used to discriminate people.

[Xiao Banfa]

Marxism is a movement which is based on facts not principles.

Marxism is based on principles. Karl Marx said that we human beings should be as boni patri familias (meaning a kind father) to this planet and it&#39;s creatures.

He also said that socialism and communism will liberate the proletarian from being beasts of burden.

He had a sense of humanity. To come away from reading Marx without a powerful sense that he cared about humanity and that he envisaged a cleaner, fairer world would take a pretty thick skull and a sealed heart.

Why would religion make one reject facts? That&#39;s insane.
Just because religious people believe in something you think is not there it doesn&#39;t mean they will refuse to believe obvious facts when confronted with them.

Religious people are humans in this world as well; they have the same material need for the increase in human welfare Marx said was necessary.

[Xiao Banfa]

And also what many of us have probably realised is that the vanguard of the proletariat (or it&#39;s more conscious, instigating elements if you prefer) will be composed of many different strands of leftists.

A unified socialist party will most likely contain a very diverse coalition of left wing parties.

By the way, I&#39;m not talking about allowing wacky, mystical cults that think their community is "communist".

We should, however, wake up to the fact that religious people can be members of a marxist party and engage in revolutionary praxis without having to renounce their religion.