Inside North Korea

[R_P_A_S]

Last night the documentary inside North Korea aired and I was a bit disappointed because I thought It would have more film of the peoples lives in Pyoyang.

I can look at this documentary from 2 points of view I guess. 1) this is just a way for America to show people how evil communism is and how it 'brainwashes' people. OR 2) show some reality and shed some light on this people?

I had no idea of the real problem with child malnutrition and how sick some of these little kids are. I ask my self what's going on with the damn dear leader does he not care? Sometime has to be done here. Why do some of this hard core Kim Jong il fanatics find it ok for him to be a god like figure, zip hennessy and enjoy a lavish life style while many rural kids are dying???

There was a doctor from Nepal on the documentary who operated on 1000 koreans that had been blinded by cataracts. as soon as these people were able to see they broke down in tears, kneel to the Great and Dear Leaders portraits and praised their love, worship and gratitude to the leaders for allowing them to live and to see again. while the doctor got no props... :blink:

[Enragé]

i bet some maoist/stalinist/hoxhaist/whateverist will turn up soon to say its all US propaganda.

Point is, realistically, i really dont think it is.
The whole leadership cult, which the government there isnt shy about, debunks any myths about that North Korea is anywhere near socialism, and makes it (to me) very likely that those documentaries (i've seen that one btw) are very close to the truth, if not completely.

North Korea is orwell's nightmare.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 08:08 pm
i bet some maoist/stalinist/hoxhaist/whateverist will turn up soon to say its all US propaganda.

Point is, realistically, i really dont think it is.
The whole leadership cult, which the government there isnt shy about, debunks any myths about that North Korea is anywhere near socialism, and makes it (to me) very likely that those documentaries (i've seen that one btw) are very close to the truth, if not completely.

North Korea is orwell's nightmare.
believe me.. I already got an earful from them. I just don't understand this. why do some comrades support this idea. and why do they pump it as if it were an example to follow? they are delusional and actually believe they live in some socialist paradise.

is the shortage in food in north korea and the power shortages due to the Juche Idea of self reliance? or is this some fucked up embargo like the cuban one?

or a combination of both

[Angry Young Man]

I couldn't be arsed to read because I'm rather tired. My point is this: why were you watching National Geographic? I always thought it was realy right wing? :huh:

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 06, 2007 09:37 pm
I couldn't be arsed to read because I'm rather tired. My point is this: why were you watching National Geographic? I always thought it was realy right wing? :huh:
oh so im not allowed or supposed to watch "right-wing" channels? i dont care if its right wing. im a marxist and i can easy identify bullshit. so it doesn't brainwash me.

[UndergroundConnexion]

North Korea does not suffer from economic "warfare" as Cuba does. The Cuban and N-K situation are really not comparable.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 09:47 pm
North Korea does not suffer from economic "warfare" as Cuba does. The Cuban and N-K situation are really not comparable.
there's no signs of people in cuba starving and children being malnourished. however in N.K there is for what we've seen, and "heard" Im just wondering if the poverty and the scarce in food, supplies, medicine is due to some sort of embargo, sanctions or if is actually they who are 'self-reliant' and feel as they don't need help.

[UndergroundConnexion]

it's not really due to an embargo, and even with embargo you can still feed your people (look at Cuba, when i went there, people had food, and they till have). North Korea gets the vast majority of their food from China. They are entriely dependend on China

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 10:47 pm
North Korea does not suffer from economic "warfare" as Cuba does. The Cuban and N-K situation are really not comparable.
Umm, what? Sanctions against the DPRK are infinitely worse than those against Cuba. Anyway, here is a report from a delegation that went in 2003:

http://www.nlg.org/programs/international/..._Report2003.pdf (http://www.nlg.org/programs/international/North_Korean_Delegation_Report2003.pdf)

I bet some liberal/trotskyist/anarchist/whateverist will turn up soon to say its all North Korean propaganda.

[Enragé]

I think part of the cause of the whole starvation thing is that in North Korea they always put the military first (its like, a whole doctrine). So all the money goes to the military first, and whats left is invested in other parts of society (ie not much).

Some of the "comrades" here could say that North Korea has to do that, because of the whole imperialist threat thing..
Now, thats just rubbish because cuba is still alive and they never did that... and cuba is like 100 miles of the US's coast and North Korea is safely tucked underneath China!

And why certain "comrades" support North Korea?
Well, personally i think some people here have a fetish for seeing large military parades, sucking up to the "dear leader" (probably because they want to be one when they grow up), and for some reason they think North Korea is a vestige of socialism just because it flies a red flag.

I'm willing to stand side by side with those "comrades" to reach a common goal, but believe me i'll be watching my back when i do cuz i dont trust 'em at all. This is the split which transcends the one between marxism and anarchism, and the various strands within it. I even have nothing against leninism (except for some theoretical complaints but i can live with it, if it does what it says it does), but supporting regimes like North Korea..

[Enragé]

Originally posted by Ronnie James Dio+March 07, 2007 12:10 am--> (Ronnie James Dio @ March 07, 2007 12:10 am)
[email protected] 06, 2007 10:47 pm
North Korea does not suffer from economic "warfare" as Cuba does. The Cuban and N-K situation are really not comparable.
Umm, what? Sanctions against the DPRK are infinitely worse than those against Cuba. Anyway, here is a report from a delegation that went in 2003:

http://www.nlg.org/programs/international/..._Report2003.pdf (http://www.nlg.org/programs/international/North_Korean_Delegation_Report2003.pdf)

I bet some liberal/trotskyist/anarchist/whateverist will turn up soon to say its all North Korean propaganda. [/b]
no, im not doubting there are sanctions.
But China never put sanctions on North Korea, China is nextdoor, and China is an economic powerhouse. Not to mention they got the hots for eachother, big ol' Kim and the "people's" congress, and whatever shithead they put on top.

[Wanted Man]

Did you read the report I linked to? Or is that just a "misprint", while we're discussing Orwell's nightmare?

Anyway, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who whole-heartedly supports every aspect of the DPRK's government, so I'm not sure who your little tirade about "comrades" who enjoy seeing marches and want to suck the dick of the Dear Leader is aimed at. If you want to argue about that, go to The Phora, I'm sure you'll find plenty of frothing-at-the-mouth third positionists. :lol:

Also, your comparison with Cuba again falls flat on its face. Firstly, China does not support North Korea all that much. They were among the countries to condemn NK for its nuclear tests and agree to further sanctions against them. Read and weep:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_Natio...Resolution_1718 (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1718)

China only has its own interests. The US won't attack the DPRK because of them, but China will not have any instability in its backyard, so it also did not hesitate to sign a resolution to further economically strangle NK when that country sought to be more self-reliant in its defence(as China is not a trusted ally in the first place).

Other than that, you're getting all hot and bothered about the fact that Cuba's physical location is closer to the USA. Umm, did distance prevent the yankees from attacking Iraq? Also, there are currently 37,000 American soldiers in South Korea, plus of course SK's army itself, trained and armed by the US.

As for the food situation, there seems to be some misunderstanding when it comes to Cuba and NK: Cuba has some 11 million people on a fairly large island, and trade relations with many countries, though obviously not the US. According to Wikipedia, Cuba's terrain "is mostly flat to rolling plains, with rugged hills and mountains in the southeast. The lowest point is the Caribbean Sea at 0 m (sea level) and the highest point is Pico Turquino at 2005 m."

In comparison, the DPRK has a population of 23 million people in an area the size of the Netherlands. Again going by Wikipedia, its terrain "consists mostly of hills and mountains separated by deep, narrow valleys. The coastal plains are wide in the west and discontinuous in the east." In 1993, it had 14% arable land. Since the famine of the mid-90s, attempts are made to work every inch of this land, with soldiers and workers often having to help out in the countryside, as you would have known had you read the report.

Also taking into account the large arms expenditures(even Cuba doesn't have to worry about millions of soldiers who can pour into the country within a matter of hours - the stand-off at the Korean DMZ is much different from Cuba's military situation, so any comparison is useless), the diplomatic and economic isolation and the strangling sanctions as a result of this.

Lastly, there is the extreme weather situation: ANY country would be seriously damaged by the floods that hit the country recently. Where do you think the Netherlands would have been during the Watersnoodramp of 1953 if not for the massive foreign aid(which NK almost completely lacks in situations much worse than the Watersnoodramp)?

Taking all these facts into account, can you still say that the food situation(which IS improving since the measures that I mentioned earlier) is entirely the fault of NK itself? What else, exactly, do you expect? Should Kim Jong-il conjure up mountains of rice to make you happy? :wacko:

Above you can see me saying that this is all just US propaganda. :lol:

[OneBrickOneVoice]

and cuba is like 100 miles of the US's coast and North Korea is safely tucked underneath China!

Yes of course, the logic of comrade NKOS is irrefutable. For example, people who trade with Cuba have to cross the atlantic ocean and risk their ship being flooded and drowning. Also, magical American troll gaurds are omnipresent around Cuba. In North Korea however, Mother Bear China grabs and protects North Korea and trade can easily come in by horse carriage through the silk roads.

ITS CALLED A MODERN ECONOMY. SANCTIONS EFFECT COUNTRIES IN THE SAME WAY

[RevolutionaryMarxist]

I saw this documentary too last night, and personally I believe its relatively accurate. The show put on for the Americans by those who were cured of blindness no doubt shows what it shows (Kim Il Jung Brainwashing).

Personally I would find this almost a funny society if it wasn't real.

In general for North Korea, its disgusting that Kim il Jung dines like a capitalist dog while his people die by the millions. Castro dines lavishly because his people as a whole are happy and well. Kim il Jung pays so much for military and those enormous statchues that North Korea's population hasn't even increased in the past 60 years, while places like India grew by over 400% in those years.

Normally National Geographic isn't good, but this one was interesting and accurate in my opinon.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by Ronnie James [email protected] 07, 2007 12:56 am
Did you read the report I linked to? Or is that just a "misprint", while we're discussing Orwell's nightmare?

Anyway, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who whole-heartedly supports every aspect of the DPRK's government, so I'm not sure who your little tirade about "comrades" who enjoy seeing marches and want to suck the dick of the Dear Leader is aimed at. If you want to argue about that, go to The Phora, I'm sure you'll find plenty of frothing-at-the-mouth third positionists. :lol:

Also, your comparison with Cuba again falls flat on its face. Firstly, China does not support North Korea all that much. They were among the countries to condemn NK for its nuclear tests and agree to further sanctions against them. Read and weep:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_Natio...Resolution_1718 (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1718)

China only has its own interests. The US won't attack the DPRK because of them, but China will not have any instability in its backyard, so it also did not hesitate to sign a resolution to further economically strangle NK when that country sought to be more self-reliant in its defence(as China is not a trusted ally in the first place).

Other than that, you're getting all hot and bothered about the fact that Cuba's physical location is closer to the USA. Umm, did distance prevent the yankees from attacking Iraq? Also, there are currently 37,000 American soldiers in South Korea, plus of course SK's army itself, trained and armed by the US.

As for the food situation, there seems to be some misunderstanding when it comes to Cuba and NK: Cuba has some 11 million people on a fairly large island, and trade relations with many countries, though obviously not the US. According to Wikipedia, Cuba's terrain "is mostly flat to rolling plains, with rugged hills and mountains in the southeast. The lowest point is the Caribbean Sea at 0 m (sea level) and the highest point is Pico Turquino at 2005 m."

In comparison, the DPRK has a population of 23 million people in an area the size of the Netherlands. Again going by Wikipedia, its terrain "consists mostly of hills and mountains separated by deep, narrow valleys. The coastal plains are wide in the west and discontinuous in the east." In 1993, it had 14% arable land. Since the famine of the mid-90s, attempts are made to work every inch of this land, with soldiers and workers often having to help out in the countryside, as you would have known had you read the report.

Also taking into account the large arms expenditures(even Cuba doesn't have to worry about millions of soldiers who can pour into the country within a matter of hours - the stand-off at the Korean DMZ is much different from Cuba's military situation, so any comparison is useless), the diplomatic and economic isolation and the strangling sanctions as a result of this.

Lastly, there is the extreme weather situation: ANY country would be seriously damaged by the floods that hit the country recently. Where do you think the Netherlands would have been during the Watersnoodramp of 1953 if not for the massive foreign aid(which NK almost completely lacks in situations much worse than the Watersnoodramp)?

Taking all these facts into account, can you still say that the food situation(which IS improving since the measures that I mentioned earlier) is entirely the fault of NK itself? What else, exactly, do you expect? Should Kim Jong-il conjure up mountains of rice to make you happy? :wacko:

Above you can see me saying that this is all just US propaganda. :lol:
thanks for the facts and sources.

As i support the workers of North Korea and I love their anti-imperialist stance. I must admit their leadership is what does not sit well. You personally would be fine and dandy if you were forced to praise this man and his father as the creators of the world or some crazy ass cult? You think that make sense??

do you think is perfectly fine that all the books are written by Kim il song? people have no choice to read something else? You find all this proper and progressive?

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by RevolutionaryMarxist+March 07, 2007 03:22 am--> (RevolutionaryMarxist @ March 07, 2007 03:22 am) In general for North Korea, its disgusting that Kim il Jung dines like a capitalist dog while his people die by the millions. Castro dines lavishly because his people as a whole are happy and well. [/b]
Who the crap is Kim il Jung? Also, Cuba has a food rationing system, does it not? Do Cubans not hate the evil Castro régime so much that they flee to the free west by shoddy little rafts?

Is anyone who would argue with the above also a stalinist/maoist/hoxhaist/whateverist who can only shout "US propaganda!"? Hell, if we're going to take NKOS's personal attack on people who defend NK from earlier, aren't the only people who like Cuba those with a hard-on for Che Guevara who only support socialism when it has rum and palm beaches? :rolleyes:


North Korea's population hasn't even increased in the past 60 years, while places like India grew by over 400% in those years
Thankfully! The place already has a rather high population density... ...is what I would like to say if you weren't completely making stuff up. In 1990, the population was 21.4 million. In 2006, was is estimated at 23.1 million. Not too bad, taking into account the famine in the mid-90s. But really, with the food situation, an explosive growth wouldn't even be beneficial, more people would starve.


Originally posted by [email protected]
You personally would be fine and dandy if you were forced to praise this man and his father as the creators of the world or some crazy ass cult? You think that make sense??
Not at all. I would just personally dispute that people are forced to praise these people, or that the entire country is "some crazy ass cult". The N.L.G. report that I linked to earlier also goes into detail about the role of the Kims. Although I cannot deny that there is obviously an extensive personality cult that is quite unmarxist, along with the emphasis on the need for a strong individual at the top.

Still, if we're drawing a comparison with Cuba again, one could say: "Cuba's electoral system is a sham, Castro is the one who is actually in charge! They are also forced to support him: if you don't go to a speech of his, you get in trouble at the workplace!" Why can we easily unmask this obvious Gusano propaganda, while many socialists here cannot accept that the North Korean electoral system is quite similar to Cuba's: a strong central government, which is, however, also backed up by workers' collectives, local governments, regional governments, etc., i.e. not a top-down system, but a "circular" system, as the N.L.G. article puts it.


RPAS
do you think is perfectly fine that all the books are written by Kim il song? people have no choice to read something else? You find all this proper and progressive?
Again, not sure about this one. Are you really quite sure that this massive library (http://www.theodora.com/wfb/photos/korea_north/grand_people-s_study_house_pyongyang_north_korea_photo_kfa.jpg) , the Grand People's Study House, contains books by only two men? NK also has (free!) universities where some foreigners teach(2 British people, I believe). Are these teachers only teaching from Kim's books? :unsure:

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

I think there is a fundamental difference between Cuba and North Korea.

In Cuba, there is a culture of regular people defending the things Cuba has. They know Cuba isn't rich but it is able to beat the US at some fundamental things.

in terms of social responsibility and participatory democracy Cuba, as a workers state, is actually on the offensive.

And, if the future is with socialism and not capitalism, one of the main features surely must be a politically empowered populace.

The fact that BBC reporters who report on Cuba are able to tell that the Cuban are active defenders of the revolution is not what we should compare with the DPRK.

Its the fact that the Cuba's are able to associate freely with foreigners and journalists. The DPRK is very controlled, visitors are not allowed to converse with the general population.

Why would the talk box of an imperialist power, the BBC, feel so able to portray the DPRK as a hell hole and not Cuba?

Its because there is a fundamental difference. Cuba is a working country, the DPRK is not a working country.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 01:41 pm
The DPRK is very controlled, visitors are not allowed to converse with the general population.
Umm, yes they are. But hey, don't ask me, ask people who went there:

http://www.stat.ualberta.ca/people/schmu/nk.html
Of course, a recent report is more accurate than one from 1995, but even in that year of famine, apparently North Koreans were quite talkative:

"We soon met some North Koreans in the compartment next to ours; their English wasn't half bad, but interestingly enough they didn't seem to know the word `tourist'. They were engaging and friendly to the point of sexual harassment."

Or go yourself: http://www.koryogroup.com/


Why would the talk box of an imperialist power, the BBC, feel so able to portray the DPRK as a hell hole and not Cuba?

Its because there is a fundamental difference. Cuba is a working country, the DPRK is not a working country.
So because the imperialist media can effectively demonize a country in the first place, they must be right? :huh: Someone who has actually been to NK was not so charmed with the BBC's "journalism":

http://www.geocities.com/dprk02/dprkbbc.htm

[R_P_A_S]

i don't really care how much you trying to pump it and defend it. those people aren't truly free. and well i was just thinking that worshipping Kim Il Sung and Jon Il makes more sense than christians praising God. since we know the kims exists!

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 07:23 pm
i don't really care how much you trying to pump it and defend it. those people aren't truly free.
So, basically, you don't care about facts. You just "bellyfeel" it, as long as we're remaining in Orwell's realm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellyfeel#Bellyfeel

Edit: or Truthiness, if Colbert is more your thing: http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=54358

Or Wikiality, for that matter: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wikiality