Classless Society

[Ymir]

In the theories of marx, when the bourgeois class is abolished and the population becomes one group, do they simply all become the proletariat? Does the destruction of the bougeois "free" the people or just enslave the whole? Once the corporate powers lose authority, does this new "freedom" simply allow a strong willed individual to become the single control factor of the people? The strong revolutionary leaders will have the admiration and respect of the people and this gives them a unique ability to twist this into total power? Most of the populace will not be well read in the writings of marx and other theorists so they may not know the whole idea behind what they stand for and once a few questioning revolutionary supports are disposed of, the people have ONE man to thank for their victory and new "freedom".

[Michael De Panama]

If a leader or a group had total power, they would be in a class above the rest of the population. This is completely against the principles of communism.

[Vide]

In theory, revolution is not supposed to occur as the result of one man's actions (e.g. Lenin). It is supposed to a worker's overthrow of the bourgeoisie en masse. This means that in theory, all members of society must be educated about communism before a revolution occurs. Of course, it hasn't happened yet.

As for the classless society which is supposed to result after revolution, it ought to be an anarchist collective (again in theory) where all members of society are aware of their role and responsibility in the chain of production and consumption. From each according to his ability, to each according to his means, etc. Again, this hasn't happened yet, probably because revolution's been accomplished incorrectly.

[Ymir]

You missed my point. I might have said it wrong...What I mean by my first statement that people coming out of a despotic/ capitalist society will naturally need a hierarchy. If you completely destroy the bourgeois in a violent revolution the people will still have that inner urge for someone to control them and they will look to the revolutionary "Vanguard" ,as Che Guevara calls it, and this will open an oppertunity for one of the Vanguard revolutionaries (such as castro, lenin, mao, pol pot) to claim a dictator status and the people would not oppose him because he would fought "for the people". Summary- Violent communist revolutions lead to dictators.

[Ymir]

my last statement was meant for michael

[Vide]

Ha! I knew that, I wrote about it in another post. It's a syndrome, I suppose. If people are led to revolution, they want to be led to socialist paradise afterwards instead of doing it themselves.

The real question is: will non-violent revolution lead to an absence of hierarchy?

[Ymir]

From what i've studied the soviets were trying to infiltrate and effectively "brainwash" the american people into the soviet way so they could be subjugated without ever fighting a single battle. I think that this would be successful because it allows time for people to adjust and gives them the principles of the ideals without the rabid frenzy of hate that the violent revolutions start. Although many people might not agree with sovietism they were a world power and I think they had some good ideas. If communist ideals could be put into a nations populace slowly and over many years then eventually the nation would have them as intertwined as the hierarchy of the capitalistic systems are today. And no life would be lost.
"Will non-violent revolution lead to an absence of hierarchy?"
I wouldnt be able to answer that in my lifetime but I do know that the soviet style of subjugation would certainly be a smarter approach.

[Vide]

I'd say that mental subversion/brainwashing is just as bad as violence. Remember, that's how capitalism took hold (adverts). I prefer to let people make the right decision based on its objective merits.

[Ymir]

Vide, human communication is mostly brainwashing. It's the changing of peoples ideas to one's own. People can not accept the ideas, but it does not mean we should not make them seem good.

[Vide]

I disagree, communication is nothing more than an exchange of ideas, not attempting to convert someone. Trying to make your concept seem better than it is is called propaganda.

[Ymir]

Forget our views on communication for now.

Alright, a peaceful transformation of a capitalist society into a communist society would be the introduction of singular communist ideals fed one by one, slowly yet repeteively into the people. I don't mean to make the ideals introduced seem better than they are but show the merits as you said, while simultaneously showing the failures of the current system.

Gradually these ideas could be accepted and the system would evolve. As marx predicted that capitalism was a step in the evolutionary progress of communism, I believe the american capitalistic society could slowly be evolved by subtle means. Make the communist ideals emphasized in every religion, media, and family value. Then there will be no need for a revolution.

These ideas should not be communicated, but shown, in actions of people in power, government, celebrities, etc.. The population might not even know what they are witnessing but because of the hierarchy of capitalism the people might emulate others by example. Using capitalisms own system against it could be the gradual rise of a global communist system.

People are born into capitalism, now they must be born into communism.

[Vide]

I suppose that is a method of introducing Communism into the world. It's not one that I would endorse, however. It stinks of propagandized indroctrination, something to which I am vehemently opposed. I see no difference between your proposed method of assimilation and the Hitler Youth, for example.

[Ymir]

You compare team work emphasis to the hitler youth program and I find that disturbing.

[Vide]

"Team work emphasis?"

...introduction of singular communist ideals fed one by one, slowly yet repeteively into the people.

Make the communist ideals emphasized in every religion, media, and family value.

These ideas should not be communicated, but shown, in actions of people in power, government, celebrities, etc..

That's not team work emphasis, that's Big Brother.

[Ymir]

At least I have a plan.

[Vide]

That was the saddest comment I've ever seen. You have a "plan"? I suppose brainwashing and Hitlerian assimilation constitute a left-wing solution to your problem?

Why is it that all the "leftists" here are as right-wing as nazis?

[Ymir]

I am not a part of any "wing". I come to this forum because of the constructive thinkers on it. You however seem to think that constructive activity consists of verbally attacking people who have their own ideas.

You accuse me of "hitlerian" assimilation but all I have talked about is a peaceful and realistic solution to some people's wants.

[Vide]

Incorrect. I do not attack people, I attack their ideas. If you don't like them being challenged, then don't post them. If, on the other hand, you are prepared to defend your beliefs, then don't complain.

I have accused you of endorsing Hitlerian assimilation because that's exactly what it is. Some people want it, and yes, it is realistic but it not a solution to anything and it is hardly peaceful. If anything, it creates the problem of an easily duped, led by the nose society of mindless sycophants who are aggressively force-fed propaganda on a daily basis.

This is a characteristic of dictatorships, not peaceful socialist societies.

[Ymir]

People won't change unless you make them change. The average U.S. citizen is happy and has the greatest of hopes. They believe their nation is on the top of the world and that they will continue to be more prosperous. Would anyone happy want to try something risky and new if they had the current benefits? I am talking about manipulating the bourgeoisie of the world so they could begin giving back to the people they took from.

[Vide]

I disagree, people will only change if they change themselves. Of course, I may be wrong and if that's the case, I'd rather have people not change at all than force them.

[ID2002]

Vide, I will agree with you. You raise some good points.

[RGacky3]

Quote: from Ymir on 3:09 am on June 21, 2002
People won't change unless you make them change. The average U.S. citizen is happy and has the greatest of hopes. They believe their nation is on the top of the world and that they will continue to be more prosperous. Would anyone happy want to try something risky and new if they had the current benefits? I am talking about manipulating the bourgeoisie of the world so they could begin giving back to the people they took from.


The average american is not happy, the proletariate is still being exploited in the U$, and it will always be this way as long as capitalism exists.

[RGacky3]

I also agree partly with YMIR, we nee to tell the people the message of communism, this is done though propaganda, not False propaganda, just propaganda. Also no need for the personal attacks, you may not agree with him, but he does'nt agree with you so no need to be a *****.