Islam and Evolution

[AfricanSocialCommunist]

Islam and Evolution (http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/evolve.htm)

"Recently a pamphlet has been circulated around Oxford saying that evolution is synonymous with kufr and shirk. I myself am a biologist and am convinced by the evidence which supports the theory of evolution. I am writing to ask whether the Quranic account of Creation is incompatible with man having evolved. Are there any books which you would recommend on the subject?"

This was a question addressed to Nuh Ha Mim Keller in 1995. The Question asked is posted above. Please read the whole thing. Ask me about my beliefs of you wish... I was asked this on the Chat today, so I thought I might post it here.

I am sure some of you will run with name calling and other gibberish I dont care to mention. but its ok, everyone has to blow out steam. :)

--- ASC ---

[Severian]

Going by the article, you're going to claim evolution is somehow a bad theory. Funny how people who say that are always people who have some conflicting faith to start with.

Creationism's been endlessly debated on this board and on the web. There's plenty of Christian creationist nonsense that's been refuted, why should it have to be refuted all over again, just because a Muslim repeats the same thing?

The article claims Darwin, in the Origin of Species, admits his theory is not falsifiable. Like a lot of things in creationist literature, this is simply a lie. I've read the Origin of Species, and Darwin points out a number of things which would disprove, i.e. falsify, his theory. If you convince me you're worth the time, I could search them out and post them. (The text is probably available online.)

[Eleutherios]

Sorry dude. We share over 98% of our DNA with chimps. We're apes. Accept it, and welcome to the 21st century.

[Ihavenoidea]

unfortunatly OUR 21st century is Islams Jurassic. When we are in the future they will be slowly trotting up to the medievil times.

Giddy up, Horsey! *rides off wearing armour and sword*

I say this because of their blatent disregard for modern science and human rights.

*horse is livid* HEY! STOP STOP STOP! *Horse flais and neighs then calms down*

And animal rights...? Is that what you wanted to say? *horse sighs*

[ichneumon]

the Quran states that man was created. it does not at all allow for human evolution. it does not directly state that animals were created *as they are now* - it says that all things were made from water, and that they change. like most religious documents, it can be interpreted several ways in regards to modern issues.

btw, maybe god made chimps with 99% human DNA. that proves nothing.

on the other hand, evolution is a fact. we watch it in the lab, it happens inside the human body with HIV. there is no way to scientifically prove that the earth (and the rest of the universe) wasn't created as is at some point in the recent past, with the fossil record already pre-existing. it's kinda silly, but if you want to believe that and it makes you happy, feel free.

[Publius]

This was a question addressed to Nuh Ha Mim Keller in 1995. The Question asked is posted above. Please read the whole thing. Ask me about my beliefs of you wish... I was asked this on the Chat today, so I thought I might post it here.

I am sure some of you will run with name calling and other gibberish I dont care to mention. but its ok, everyone has to blow out steam. :)


Isn't it strange that people use the incomplete, inaccurate, falsely labeled, meaningless fossil record to disprove evolution? Think about it.

The thing I feel that needs to be mentioned is this:

(1) Evolution is a confused, incorrect worldview.
(2) If it were the case that Allah created man, then A would naturally follow.
(3) Therefore B.

That should about give you an idea of how highly I rate the level scholarship (I use the term loosely) in this essay.

And picking up the point made earlier, Darwin did indeed show his theory was falsifiable: if, say, a creature got a trunk or a working eye whole in one generation that would destroy the idea of natural selection. So there you go.

On the whole, the article is ridiculous. If you really want to get into semantics, we can do it, and have no doubt that evolution and I will come out ahead in this bout, but just as a representative sample:

Allah can do anything that is not impossible.

is a tautoloy. Anyone can do anything that it is not impossible for them to do.

And no, I didn't read all of it. I don't give a shit about Islamic theology.

[Eleutherios]

Originally posted by ichn[email protected] 06, 2007 08:18 pm
btw, maybe god made chimps with 99% human DNA. that proves nothing.
I know it's no positive proof, but I think it's still a powerful argument against Judeo-Islamo-Christian creationism. It just seems silly to me that God would create man in his own image and create chimpanzees 98% in his own image, and the rest of the apes 95% in his own image.

But it's not really the percentages that make our DNA a powerful form of proof that we share a common ancestor with the other primates; it's the actual sequences of DNA themselves. When we look at the way the DNA is structured among the various primates, it is overwhelmingly obvious that these species form an evolutionary hierarchy, with humans and chimpanzees and bonobos forming one branch. We can even use the structural similarities and differences, along with our knowledge of how frequently genes usually mutate, to make estimates of the times that certain species diverged. The molecular evidence for evolution is more compelling than the entire fossil record, but few people take notice because it's a very complicated subject.

on the other hand, evolution is a fact. we watch it in the lab, it happens inside the human body with HIV. there is no way to scientifically prove that the earth (and the rest of the universe) wasn't created as is at some point in the recent past, with the fossil record already pre-existing. it's kinda silly, but if you want to believe that and it makes you happy, feel free.
Yes, it's theoretically possible that the world was created last Thursday with everything already in place including the memories in our heads. But it's an unfalsifiable, unscientific and unreasonable proposition.

[freakazoid]

Just because a chimp has 98% of the same DNA is not proof that we are related.

[Eleutherios]

I know. I just said that in the post right above yours.

EDIT: Actually, I revise that statement. The fact that we share any DNA at all with chimps is scientific proof that we are related to them. We know how DNA replicates, how it mutates, how gene frequencies work and how the best genes get selected out through natural selection; we've observed all these things, and with them we have weaved a coherent, comprehensive, and thoroughly proven theory of the origin of species. Evolution is a fact; it is how all life-forms arose, and it is the only known mechanism that is capable of generating the complex structures found in the world's organisms.

It is ridiculous to postulate that DNA as a self-replicating molecule evolved twice on the same planet, once for chimps and once for humans. DNA is so intricate in its design that it could not have evolved twice from two separate lineages; all organisms with DNA must have had a common ancestor. So the fact that we have DNA and chimps have DNA is proof that humans and chimps are related. To anybody with a mind, that is.

If you want to go on believing that some deceptive sky wizard cooked things up to make it look very convincingly like evolution happened when it really didn't, go on ahead believing that, but it's rather like saying it only looks likes plate tectonics is going on because the Flying Spaghetti Monster actually molded all the landforms in a deceptive way and he creates volcanoes and earthquakes with his noodly appendages. I mean, sure, we can't technically disprove the unfalsifiable idea that some deceptive deity is only making it look like evolution and plate tectonics and gravity are happening according to the natural laws of physics, but it's just positively ludicrous, and quite frankly I don't know how people stay sane with such ideas in their heads.

[freakazoid]

I have posted on this subject over here, http://forums.jesusradicals.com/viewtopic....1459&highlight= (http://forums.jesusradicals.com/viewtopic.php?t=1459&highlight=) If you would like to read more on why I believe what I do about YEC then I highly recommend that link.

edit - spelling typo, lol

[Publius]

Just because a chimp has 98% of the same DNA is not proof that we are related.

I'd say it means we're about 98% related to them; what else could it possibly mean?

Think about it for a second.

[Eleutherios]

LOL, Jesus Radicals!

"Put down your guns comrades! Revolution's off! We can't shoot our bourgeois enemies, we have to love them remember?"

So why are you using the Bible as your source of information on how humanity started? Why not the Qur'an? Why not Greek mythology? Why not Dianetics? What's your evidence for believing that Yahweh exists and influences the process of evolution? Until you present some, evolution by natural (i.e. not supernatural) selection is the only acceptable scientific theory that can explain how organisms evolved.

[freakazoid]

I'd say it means we're about 98% related to them; what else could it possibly mean?


I explain what I think it means in the link that I provided.

edit -
"Put down your guns comrades! Revolution's off! We can't shoot our bourgeois enemies, we have to love them remember?"


Thats not how it is, I suggest you read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, here is an etext of it, http://www.lib.ru/LEWISCL/mere_engl.txt, The part that I am talking about is in Book 3 chapter 7

[Eleutherios]

Why don't you state what you think here so I don't have to scroll through all this creationist bullcrap where you basically say ancient tribal mythology is way more reliable than the hard physical evidence that scientists accept?

Genesis has been repeatedly proven false by geologists, biologists, palaeontologists, and astronomers. Just get over it.

[freakazoid]

Why don't you state what you think here so I don't have to scroll through all this creationist bullcrap where you basically say ancient tribal mythology is way more reliable than the hard physical evidence that scientists accept?


Because I thnk that it is much better to read it in the question and answer form, plus I am not very good at paraphrasing. Also not everyone there believes in YEC, actually it would apear that most do not.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Freakazoid.

When you die do you go to heaven?

[RedCommieBear]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 10:23 pm
Why don't you state what you think here so I don't have to scroll through all this creationist bullcrap where you basically say ancient tribal mythology is way more reliable than the hard physical evidence that scientists accept?

Genesis has been repeatedly proven false by geologists, biologists, palaeontologists, and astronomers. Just get over it.
Add theologians to that list. Philo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo_of_Alexandria#Attitude_toward_literal_meanin g), a Jewish scholar who was born before Jesus' ministry argued against Biblical literalism, long before evolution or heliocentrism were discovered.

You don't have to be an earth scientist to realize that Young Earth Creationism is utterly unscientific.300 YEC Lies (http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Pier/1766/hovindlies/A.html)

[Publius]

I explain what I think it means in the link that I provided.

How about we just discuss it here? Why don't you give me your own answers and opinions instead of copy/pasting some creationist nonsense?

Here, you tell me what you believe, in your own words.

Or don't, see if I care, just don't further pretend like you have any place in serious discussions.

[Comrade J]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 08:24 pm
And no, I didn't read all of it. I don't give a shit about Islamic theology.
Ah pity, it's parrots many of the myths that the Christians took from the Jews who took from the Pagans, kinda like fourth generation bullshit.

And nice link Red Tendency, refutes the YEC nonsense concisely and in an easy-to-understand way.

[freakazoid]

How about we just discuss it here? Why don't you give me your own answers and opinions instead of copy/pasting some creationist nonsense?

Here, you tell me what you believe, in your own words.

If you would like I will try to write out an essay, might be a while though. Although I try to shy away from doing that because I am not a very good essay writer, on my last semester of high school in my English class I flunked it, first time I have ever recieved an F :(. Also in my English class at collage A received a C and then in the next level of English I got a D, :(. I am not very good at writing papers, but if you would like I will.



And nice link Red Tendency, refutes the YEC nonsense concisely and in an easy-to-understand way.

I haven't fully read everyhing in the link but I have skimmed through it. He really isn't refuting the YEC belief, he is just refuting a person and it doesn't even seem to go into great detail into the belief.

[Publius]

If you would like I will try to write out an essay, might be a while though. Although I try to shy away from doing that because I am not a very good essay writer, on my last semester of high school in my English class I flunked it, first time I have ever recieved an F :(. Also in my English class at collage A received a C and then in the next level of English I got a D, :(. I am not very good at writing papers, but if you would like I will.


You don't need to write an essay, just tell me what you think, succinctly.

Or don't, it's not an obligation, and if it's too much trouble for you, fuck it. It doesn't matter to me either way.

[Raisa]

Humans could damn well have been created to evolve, if it is so that god really loves them.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

It isn't even worth debating.

You should just ignore creationist ideas, any extra attention lends them credence. It's a tried and tested formula for Dembski, Behew & Co. Make an outrageous claim, or several, so that a scientist will be provoked into refuting it, and then point to this refutation as evidence of a 'controversy' within the scientific community. If there's controversy in people's minds, then until they know something about evolution, they'll assume the ideas are about equal, hence the equal-time argument in schools.

-Alex

[Eleutherios]

Well it's kind of hard to ignore it when half the country consists of evolution deniers. It's best for scientists to keep away from creationists because it does give the false impression that there's a real scientific debate going on when they're seen debating real scientists, but the rest of us should go on ridiculing their ridiculous bullcrap.

[ichneumon]

Well it's kind of hard to ignore it when half the country consists of evolution deniers. It's best for scientists to keep away from creationists because it does give the false impression that there's a real scientific debate going on when they're seen debating real scientists, but the rest of us should go on ridiculing their ridiculous bullcrap.

i agree with this 100%. *scientists* need to stay out of it. i had a blistering flame fight with an evolutionary biology prof, who turned his class into Darwinism 101. science has to be neutral in this, no matter how ignorant and offensive creationists may be.

[Comrade J]

I haven't fully read everyhing in the link but I have skimmed through it. He really isn't refuting the YEC belief, he is just refuting a person and it doesn't even seem to go into great detail into the belief.

Exactly, hence the term "concise." And you won't believe any of it anyway, you're too far gone.


Humans could damn well have been created to evolve, if it is so that god really loves them.

Yes, or maybe it was a dancing blue unicorn named Brian. There is no evidence at all for God, it's therefore not at all logical to suggest it as a valid theory in how we got here. If we accepted any figment of someone's imagination as a valid point, we'd have billions of theories about how we got here. Creationism is simply dressed up magic, we might as well believe in the infinite wisdom of Gandalf.

[RNK]

Don't you people get it? Those religious folks aren't going to be satisfied until God himself comes down from heaven and tells them that evolution does infact exist.