Occupation of Palestine since 1948

[LebaneseCommunistParty]

Your thoughts on the subject? I have yet to hear the opinions of leftists from outside lebanon.

[Hiero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 09:09 pm
Your thoughts on the subject? I have yet to hear the opinions of leftists from outside lebanon.
It is colonialism/imperialism. It should be resisted by a united front and the settler state destroyed.

[Vargha Poralli]

It is the Biggest crime of the 20th century.The worse part is that it uses a Crime which is not committed by the Palestinians to justify its terror.

Another shameful thing is Stalin supported this crime(Initially).

Some works which shaped my outlook on this subject (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/mideast/index.htm)

[Fawkes]

It is doubtful that you will find many Zionists on the far left.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

I can't stand the double-standards of Israel. They form a highly millitaristic society prone to aggression against its neighbours and the seizure of more and more territory, all the while systematically abusing an ethnic minority.

And they still keep saying "never again."

[Fawkes]

The best part about it is the name of their armed forces....Israeli Defense Force.

[intransit]

First, I'd like to say I don't trust people who quote Mao, who was a brutal murderer and a self-serving autocratic. Further, I don't trust members of the Communist party, on the grounds that "Communism" is a great evil- Democratic Socialism is the way to be (personally, I'm more or less a Trotskyist).
To the point. Occupation? I think not. Furthermore, anyone who would destroy a highly functional (if strongly flawed) secular liberal democracy (Israel) in favor of a state that will be ruled by murderous Islamofascists is out of their head. I don't care what you think about the creation of Israel; it is a liberal, secular democracy (with strong democratic socialist roots, I might add). Imagine if the Palestinian Authority was in charge of Israel- if you think the infighting between Fatah and Hamas is bad, it would magnify exponentially. Israel, furthermore, is not an apartheid state (contrary to what a certain senile ex-president believes). There are government funded affirmative action programs to assist Arab persons; the current Speaker of Parliament of Israel, who's formal title is President of Israel, is in fact Arab.
~Proud to be an American, Proud to be a Democratic Socialist, Proud to Fight for Westernism, Proud of Permanent Revolution` :D

[intransit]

Oh, and I chuckle heartily at the anarchists. It sounds very nice on paper, but fails to work in reality.

[Fawkes]

First, I'd like to say I don't trust people who quote Mao, who was a brutal murderer and a self-serving
I used to have a quote in my sig from John F. Kennedy, do I like him, fuck no, but I liked the quote regardless of it's source.


Further, I don't trust members of the Communist party, on the grounds that "Communism" is a great evil- Democratic Socialism is the way to be (personally, I'm more or less a Trotskyist).
Do you believe in revolution? If not, have fun in OI.


Furthermore, anyone who would destroy a highly functional (if strongly flawed) secular liberal democracy (Israel) in favor of a state that will be ruled by murderous Islamofascists is out of their head.
When the fuck did we ever say that?


I don't care what you think about the creation of Israel; it is a liberal, secular democracy (with strong democratic socialist roots, I might add).
No it's not and to say it is is absolutely absurd.


Imagine if the Palestinian Authority was in charge of Israel- if you think the infighting between Fatah and Hamas is bad, it would magnify exponentially.
Fuck the Palestinian Authority; Fuck Hamas; Fuck Fatah.


Israel, furthermore, is not an apartheid state (contrary to what a certain senile ex-president believes).
Apartheid is rule by the minority, which Israel is when you include the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. (Source (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html))


the current Speaker of Parliament of Israel, who's formal title is President of Israel, is in fact Arab.
Can anyone say "token Arab guy"?


There are government funded affirmative action programs to assist Arab persons
To get dumbasses like yourself to buy into their "secularism".



Proud to be an American
Fuck you.


Proud to Fight for Westernism
Fuck off.


Proud of Permanent Revolution
Yeah, Permanent Revolution is a pretty cool guy, though I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that I'm "proud" of him.


P.S. Speaking of "in transit", I hope you get blown up while on a bus ;) .

[Fawkes]

Oh, and I chuckle heartily at the anarchists. It sounds very nice on paper, but fails to work in reality.
I chuckle heartily at dumbasses like yourself that make absurd claims while providing no argument(s) for them.

[intransit]

It isn't apartheid when the government is chosen in free elections. The President is an elected figure. And it is a secular liberal democracy, you have nothing to refute me with on that. Further, President Kennedy was a good president. Also, secularism and Westernism rock. Also, communism and anarchism are non-systems, because they simply don't work.
I believe we must support Taiwan, and I believe we must support Israel, I believe we must support Tibet, and I believe in all things Democratic and Socialist. You're simply uninformed. Also, suggesting that my death would be welcome to you is not appreciated.
Oh, and when properly regulated with Socialist policy, Capitalism is not that bad.
~Still proud to be an American.~

[intransit]

And anarchism still doesn't work. Most people grow out of it and become Libertarian Socialists, a respectable political movement. I hope you are able to get over yourself, calm down, and think clearly. Have a nice day :-D (I'm a friendly person, I don't wish death upon people)!

[Fawkes]

It isn't apartheid when the government is chosen in free elections. The President is an elected figure. And it is a secular liberal democracy, you have nothing to refute me with on that.
How the fuck is Israel a secular democracy? There is no denying that a huge portion of Israeli citizens (that includes West Bankers and Gazans) believe in the re-instating of the Palestinian state. Why than, are the three biggest political parties in Israel (Labor, Kadima, and Likud) all opposed to the creation of a Palestinian state either in place of Israel or alongside it?


Further, President Kennedy was a good president.
Oh ya, he was great :rolleyes:


Also, communism and anarchism are non-systems, because they simply don't work.
Show me how they don't work. Oh yeah, have fun in OI.


Also, suggesting that my death would be welcome to you is not appreciated.
I don't give a fuck if you appreciate it or not.


Oh, I see, you're just some 15 year old who is convinced he is an awesome revolutionary. Whatever, you aren't worth my keystrokes or bandwidth.
Wow, good solid argument ;) .


And anarchism still doesn't work. Most people grow out of it and become Libertarian Socialists, a respectable political movement. I hope you are able to get over yourself, calm down, and think clearly. Have a nice day :-D
Anarchism is a form of Lib. Socialism.


(I'm a friendly person, I don't wish death upon people)!
IRONY! IRONY! IRONY! (being a supporter of Israel and all)

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Could some on living in israel sue the IDF for false advertising or something?

[intransit]

Almost every major Israeli party is not opposed to a coexisting Palestinian state. The leaders of Fatah and Hamas are, because they want all of Israel. And Israel is liberal secular democracy, and any state that replaces it, I assure you, won't be.

[LebaneseCommunistParty]

Excuse me?

Palestianians are islamofascists? Have you ever heard of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine? Yeah look it up dumbass...

Proud to be an American? Hah....have you been living under a rock all your life? Have you seen what the americans have been doing?

Israel is not a liberal secular democracy. It is a force OCCUPYING foreign lands. They are the ones that started the fights between fatah and hamas. They kill children. They have ETHNICALLY cleansed lebanon from palestinians with the support of the phalangists party who are RIGHT WING CHRISTIAN FASCISTS WHO WERE INFLUENCED BY HITLER AND MUSSOLININ. they are allies with the phalangists and armed them during the lebanese civil war. Yes they armed a party who supported nazism, so that they would kill palestinians.

You think it's all well and good in your little shell in america come to lebanon and see whsat i'm seeing before you talk.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

And anarchism still doesn't work. Most people grow out of it and become Libertarian Socialists, a respectable political movement.
Libertarian socialists are also anarchists, often enough. Tell me, why doesn't anarchism work?

[intransit]

Sir, Hamas and Fatah were not "provoked" into attacking each other. Control over the Palestinian Terroritories was given to the PA, and Hamas and Fatah went at it for control. There isn't anything mysterious there, it's two different organizations vying violently for power. Further, the Popular Front (which isn't very popular, actually, it only got 4.2% of the Palestinian vote in the 2006 Elections) is both a Communist, Nationalist and terrorist organization, and I happen to dislike all three of those things a great deal. And they are in fact terrorists; they have hijacked no less than 7 civilian aircraft flights.
I'd like to reiterate the fact that I don't tolerate Communism. I'd also like to point out the irony that the an Anarchist and a man who supports Nationalists are taking the same side. The (Not-so) Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine is a secular organization, but they are Communists/Nationalists/Terrorists. Furthermore, there was no such "ethnic cleansing".
Oh, and I have to address my being proudness of being American. I don't support our current leadership, which has done incredibly terrible and horrific things in the past, and continues to blunder forward. But I am proud of the principles of equality, liberty, democracy, and freedom on which America exists and must defend (but has frequently failed to). Rather than disdaining my country, I strive to work with others to improve it's many flaws. I am proud of my American identity, and I simultaneously wish to improve America.
There's nothing wrong with that.

[intransit]

And anarchy doesn't work because some form of government is always necessary to ensure the well being of the people-- and thus, it must be a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. Anarchy is, I reiterate, very nice on paper. It's an extremely nice though, and I agree that people should do good deeds because they should, not because they have to. Unfortunately, many people don't operate that way, and that is why it fails in reality.

[Fawkes]

Almost every major Israeli party is not opposed to a coexisting Palestinian state.
Yes they are. Read about them and decisions they have made.

[metalero]

Apartheid cheerleaders and chauvinist neo-cons are not tolerated here, fuck off with your "westernism" to OI. Restrict.

[Budapestkick]

Right, whoever suggested that the "settler state" be destroyed is insane. A two-state solution is clearly the only answer to the palestinian question. What do you think you're going to do? Put every Israeli on a boat and say bon voyage? Most jewish people living there are third or fourth generation by now.


I don't care what you think about the creation of Israel; it is a liberal, secular democracy (with strong democratic socialist roots, I might add).

Er, right, well it isn't to be honest. Israel was always meant to be a haven for capitalism with little restrictions on industry and a weak welfare state. It certainly didn't have democratic socialist roots (though Jews have always been among the most militant and class-conscious of the internaitonal proletariat, the bunds playing an important role in nearly every major class-struggle of the late nineteenth, early twentieth century). Israel IS a jewish state in everything but name. The palestinian people living under Israeli occupation are oppressed and are frequently prevented from voting and other democratic rights. Palestine is also a bourgeois psuedo-state, dominated by arab elites and it's people have become radicalised towards fundamentalism (You keep oppressing people and stealing their fucking land they tend to do this). The interests of both the Israeli capitalists and the clerical/middle class Arab elites are both ultimately to the detriment of both the Palestinian and Israeli working classes.
The only hope for both nations is a united front of both the Israeli and Palestinian working classes against their oppressors, the capitalists. NOT EACH OTHER!

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 04:02 pm
It is the Biggest crime of the 20th century.
Don't be stupid. The Holocaust, Rwandan Genocide, Armenian Genocide, Pol Pot, and Stalin were all much, much worse than the state of Israel.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 02:32 pm
It isn't apartheid when the government is chosen in free elections.
South Africa under apartheid had free elections. It's just Black people couldn't vote in 'em.

Similarly, Palestinians in the occupied territories are denied citizenship rights, even though Israel has been ruling them for 40 years and counting.

[Fawkes]

A two-state solution is clearly the only answer to the palestinian question.
What about a no state solution....

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by Tatanka Iyotank+March 04, 2007 08:38 am--> (Tatanka Iyotank @ March 04, 2007 08:38 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 04:02 pm
It is the Biggest crime of the 20th century.
Don't be stupid. The Holocaust, Rwandan Genocide, Armenian Genocide, Pol Pot, and Stalin were all much, much worse than the state of Israel. [/b]
Did you read me correctly ?


Yes It is the BIGGEST CRIME because it uses a crime which IS NOT COMMITTED BY PALESTINIANS to justify its existence.

And still today it is daily conducting democide against Palestinians so it is fast becoming the biggest crime of the 21st centiry too.


Fawkes
What about a no state solution....

:lol: where in Midgard ?

The possible solution is giving equal rights to Palestinians and returing all the Lands that have been illegaly occupied by Israel. Which is not possible anywhere soon. :(

[Fawkes]

:lol: where in Midgard ?
I was saying that semi-facetiously. I know that, at this time, a two-state solution is probably the best option if we are to be realistic.

[Phalanx]

Yes It is the BIGGEST CRIME because it uses a crime which IS NOT COMMITTED BY PALESTINIANS to justify its existence.

Jews in Germany weren't responsible for the economic decline, but that didn't stop the Nazis from blaming them. I'm afraid I've got no idea what you're on about.

[Vargha Poralli]

Jews in Germany weren't responsible for the economic decline, but that didn't stop the Nazis from blaming them

What is your Point ? are you accusing me of being an anti-semite ?


I'm afraid I've got no idea what you're on about.

I am about Holocaust. The Zionists, Zionist state and the Imperialists of those times who supported the creation of the state Israel in the Palestinian justified that action by pointing to holocaust and each and every western Nation and Media were really sympathetic to Zionists just because of that until the first Intifada.

Did you ever click on the links that I have provided in my first post ?

This link could also help. (http://www.isreview.org/issues/04/zionism_false_messiah.shtml)

[LebaneseCommunistParty]

There was no ethnic cleansings? I LIVE in the country where the ethnic cleansings took place and everyone here knows about it.

you don't even know what i'm talking about intransit. I am an an anarcho-communist but i have arab pride, is that a crime? I'm proud of my culture and my past.

Secondly, the ethnic cleansings in the Sabra and Chatila camps in beirut were performed by the phalangist party under orders from israel, with israeli arms. don't believe me?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Chatila_Massacre


It is the worst massacre because it is not ending and has been going on for over 50 years, and instead of one huge genocide, they ethinically cleanse a few thousand every once in a while to make it less obvious. I'm sick of zionists using the excuse of the holocaust for everything. Every time someone speaks against israel's actions, they are accused of "anti-semitism''.

Viva Palestine Libre!!

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 05:47 am
What is your Point ? are you accusing me of being an anti-semite ?
No, where did you get that idea? I'm merely saying the Jews in Germany had nothing to do with Germany's decline after WWI, but the Nazis blamed them for it anyway. Therefore, the biggest crime in the 20th century, under your definition, would be the Holocaust, not the creation of Israel.

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by Tatanka Iyotank+March 05, 2007 02:48 am--> (Tatanka Iyotank @ March 05, 2007 02:48 am)
[email protected] 04, 2007 05:47 am
What is your Point ? are you accusing me of being an anti-semite ?
No, where did you get that idea? I'm merely saying the Jews in Germany had nothing to do with Germany's decline after WWI, but the Nazis blamed them for it anyway. Therefore, the biggest crime in the 20th century, under your definition, would be the Holocaust, not the creation of Israel. [/b]
Well that may be your opinion ! Anyway this thread is about the illegal Zionist occupation of Palestine not about what is the biggest crime of 20th century.

[Coggeh]

The only solution is the downfall of capitalism , a workers unity to strive against both bourgeois sides of the spectrum.Palestine is a big issue that can either split or unite the left against imperialism.Israel was brought up using socialist idea's(that can't be denied)but it is just so disgusting that a nation which uses the slogan "never again" is practicing it everyday against civilians . I've been to Dachau, it shows all the nazi attrocities against the jewish working class in so much detail , it makes you wonder sometime after the Israeli state is dismantled will their be a place of rememberance for the Palestinians by zionist attrocities?