Annoying... very annoying...

[Herman]

Being on the left side and all (and people knowing it), you'd think they'd understand that you're all for gender equality, that you know how women, homosexuals, lesbians, transsexuals and so on and so forth, have been oppressed for centuries by the white catholic man.

However, nowadays there is something else which annoys me. This woman whom I know is an idiot on so many levels. She thinks every man is trying to oppress her in any way conceivable (yet she always gives her opinion on everything and she loves to argue... heck, she even thinks 'Sinterklaas' [check it up on wikipedia if you don't know who he is] and Black Pete are not part of an old racist tradition when in the 16th/17th century it was 'popular' to have black slaves).

So she makes remarks such as 'Men are pigs', 'All men are the same' or 'You all think the same way'. Each time she says this (and I have to hear it every day because she goes to university with me), it kills 10,000 of my brain cells. I have to tell her to shut up and stop with the whole act.

So the thing is... is it right to say things like this? Is it equal? Should it be encouraged? Am I acting wrong?

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

I don't really think there is much you can do, other than purchase some ear plugs.

If she genuinely has such a low opinion of men, talking to her seems pointless, if she's just saying to have people pay attention to her, she's probably not too cool anyway.

If you must debate her though, you will be able to blow her arguments out the water by giving a class bend to the debate.

Like, talking about a black lesbian, who employs a million workers. And raising the point, how could that person be in any way oppressed, when they can employ (or fire) a million people?

race, gender and sexuality, while very important, are superficial oppressions. Class is the overriding oppression. Its scientifically proven after all.

[TC]

how women, homosexuals, lesbians, transsexuals and so on and so forth, have been oppressed for centuries by the white catholic man.


Thats just untrue.

There is no such thing as the "white catholic man" or "the white man" or "the white protestant man" or whatever in the abstract, these are not real social categories with a material reality.


When it comes to power relations, in class society the power relations that matter are socio-economic class relations. As Marxists we reject the artificial metaphysical narratives about history whether its in the form of the 'great man theory of history' or ultra liberal attempts to project contemporary identity politics backwards throughout history.

Not all white men are oppressors, not all women and gays are oppressed. Female and gay royals have oppressed straight white male peasants for centuries as well, because its ultimately the class relations that matter.

Where patriarchy is truly relevant in a marxist understanding is when class falls on gender lines, for centuries of feudalism male agricultural workers oppressed their female domestic and childcare workers in an unequal commodity exchange relationship known as "marriage", and thats the material basis for gender inequality.

Thats not captured in statement like the one you just made or the one your friend is inclined to make.


This woman whom I know is an idiot on so many levels. She thinks every man is trying to oppress her in any way conceivable

She does sound like an idiot.



So she makes remarks such as 'Men are pigs', 'All men are the same' or 'You all think the same way'. Each time she says this (and I have to hear it every day because she goes to university with me), it kills 10,000 of my brain cells. I have to tell her to shut up and stop with the whole act.

So the thing is... is it right to say things like this? Is it equal? Should it be encouraged? Am I acting wrong?

No she's a female-chauvinist reactionary who you should feel free to try to politically embarrass as frequently as possible. People like that aren't feminists and if she is a full time university student in the western world, she does not suffer from any real gender inequality based oppression because there is no material basis for inequality between male and female university students (gender inequality is still widespread but exists in other places and classes). Suggesting that women suffer oppression simply for being women even when they have no material disadvantages to their male peers is extraordinarily patronizing and leads to a victim mentality among women which is in fact part of a paternalistic cultural attitude towards women. You can also tell your friend that she's doing more to promote and preserve the patriarchy by cultivating a false gender based consciousness in place of a class consciousness than any of her male classmates.

Her resentment of men is totally unfounded and her female identity chauvinism is just a way of trying to assert a moral superiority and lack of social responsibility despite her privileged status.


As for practical advice for how to deal with her, try to drag a marxist girl into the argument, preferably a black lesbian maoist if there are any available, to bring back the liberal guilt she's trying to dispel with her female chauvinism. :lol:

[rouchambeau]

here is no such thing as the "white catholic man" or "the white man" or "the white protestant man" or whatever in the abstract, these are not real social categories with a material reality.
These “abstract” ideas like femininity and race can still be used to oppress women and non-whites.


Where patriarchy is truly relevant in a marxist understanding is when class falls on gender lines, for centuries of feudalism male agricultural workers oppressed their female domestic and childcare workers in an unequal commodity exchange relationship known as "marriage", and thats the material basis for gender inequality.
What about rape? Your notion of class-based gender oppression doesn’t seem to take that into account. Or can you tell me how rape is a tool for class oppression?


People like that aren't feminists and if she is a full time university student in the western world, she does not suffer from any real gender inequality based oppression because there is no material basis for inequality between male and female university students.
So if this girl is raped and beaten by a man do we attribute it to class oppression or tell her that her oppression wasn’t “real”?


Suggesting that women suffer oppression simply for being women even when they have no material disadvantages to their male peers is extraordinarily patronizing
What about the fact that women make less money than men?


Her resentment of men is totally unfounded and her female identity chauvinism is just a way of trying to assert a moral superiority and lack of social responsibility despite her privileged status.
What kind of privilege? Female Privilege?

[Herman]

I don't really think there is much you can do, other than purchase some ear plugs.

I'll lop my ears off if I don't find those.


If she genuinely has such a low opinion of men, talking to her seems pointless, if she's just saying to have people pay attention to her, she's probably not too cool anyway.

No, she isn't. she craves attention and popularity by being at the forefront of 'feminism'.


If you must debate her though, you will be able to blow her arguments out the water by giving a class bend to the debate.

Like, talking about a black lesbian, who employs a million workers. And raising the point, how could that person be in any way oppressed, when they can employ (or fire) a million people?

race, gender and sexuality, while very important, are superficial oppressions. Class is the overriding oppression. Its scientifically proven after all.

Good idea. I'll try this out.


Thats just untrue.

There is no such thing as the "white catholic man" or "the white man" or "the white protestant man" or whatever in the abstract, these are not real social categories with a material reality.

Of course they're not "real" social categories. I did not mean it in that way. It was just a way of speaking, since the majority of oppressors in Europe were white and catholic. But like I said, it's just a way of speaking.


When it comes to power relations, in class society the power relations that matter are socio-economic class relations. As Marxists we reject the artificial metaphysical narratives about history whether its in the form of the 'great man theory of history' or ultra liberal attempts to project contemporary identity politics backwards throughout history.

Yes, you are right. I have rejected these notions. I simply used her manner of speaking when talking about the 'white catholic man'.


Not all white men are oppressors, not all women and gays are oppressed. Female and gay royals have oppressed straight white male peasants for centuries as well, because its ultimately the class relations that matter.

Again, I agree.


Thats not captured in statement like the one you just made or the one your friend is inclined to make.

Err... that's because I haven't actually said anything about class relations and so on (and I did not want to mention it either as I did not see it relevant to the question and message I wanted to convey. I don't know why you're so hostile). I only mentioned that I was tired of hearing her bullshit.


She does sound like an idiot.

Yes, she does. And when I think she's finished talking (since there is a small pause in the conversation) I start telling her what a fool she is, but then she suddenly shouts that I'm not letting her talk and that i'm 'like a typical man'.


No she's a female-chauvinist reactionary who you should feel free to try to politically embarrass as frequently as possible.

In the lectures, I try to as much as possible.


Suggesting that women suffer oppression simply for being women even when they have no material disadvantages to their male peers is extraordinarily patronizing and leads to a victim mentality among women which is in fact part of a paternalistic cultural attitude towards women.

Precisely. That's the whole point.

[TC]

To reply to rouchambeau's comments



These “abstract” ideas like femininity and race can still be used to oppress women and non-whites.

No.

Abstract ideas like femininity, race, god, legal ownership, family values, etc, never oppressed anyone.

Guns, money and access to power do.

Marxists understand that the abstract ideas people use to justify oppressive institutions are just superficial rationalizations, it’s the material relations of production and consumption that are real.



What about rape? Your notion of class-based gender oppression doesn’t seem to take that into account.

Err it doesn’t take it into account precisely because individual acts of interpersonal violence, which are despised and surpressed by society and the state, are not oppression. Oppression is the systematic use of social power to adversely affect a population’s interests and conditions. Individual interpersonal violence with no institutional backing, no difference in power relations, no material support to allow one person to act against another with social impunity in the way that agents of the state can, are not instances of oppression and are suppressed by every state level society.

I’m curious to know why it would even occur to you that rape would be ‘gender oppression.’ Do you think that its gender oppression if a man is punched in a bar by a stranger? Individual interpersonal violence existed before class relations and social oppression and likely will exist after class relations and social oppression.

And for all the emphasis on violence against women, the vast majority of violence, both individual and state, is violence against men. Despite the media image of the female victim of random violence, which I frankly think is reactionary as it encourages women to be paranoid, unconfident and dependent in public and men to be overprotective, the more common victim of violence is male. Promoting the myth of women as perpetual victims is not only patronizing and paternalistic, its disempowering to women. How does that fit into your anti-marxist view of gender oppression?



So if this girl is raped and beaten by a man do we attribute it to class oppression or tell her that her oppression wasn’t “real”?

That’s not oppression, you’re making a category error. Oppression is not a catch all category for all bad things that happen to people. Cancer isn’t oppressive. Car accidents aren’t oppressive. Random disorganized non-state individual violence isn’t oppressive.

Individual rapists are a universally despised group that almost all feudal states, all bourgeois states, and all workers states repress, the power relations of society overwhelmingly work against them.




What about the fact that women make less money than men?

Err, did you READ what I wrote?

I wrote “(gender inequality is still widespread but exists in other places and classes).”

Places where women make less money than men would be examples of this.

The university is not one such place, men and women earn the same amount of money attending university as undergrads, none at all. And in any case the inequality in pay in capitalist societies is the result of a systematically unequal division of labour in families, something that does not affect typical university students.



What kind of privilege? Female Privilege?
Lol is male privilege the only type you can entertain?

The privilege I was referring to was the real type, class privilege.

[Adam Rand]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 05:21 pm
Being on the left side and all (and people knowing it), you'd think they'd understand that you're all for gender equality, that you know how women, homosexuals, lesbians, transsexuals and so on and so forth, have been oppressed for centuries by the white catholic man.

However, nowadays there is something else which annoys me. This woman whom I know is an idiot on so many levels. She thinks every man is trying to oppress her in any way conceivable (yet she always gives her opinion on everything and she loves to argue... heck, she even thinks 'Sinterklaas' [check it up on wikipedia if you don't know who he is] and Black Pete are not part of an old racist tradition when in the 16th/17th century it was 'popular' to have black slaves).

So she makes remarks such as 'Men are pigs', 'All men are the same' or 'You all think the same way'. Each time she says this (and I have to hear it every day because she goes to university with me), it kills 10,000 of my brain cells. I have to tell her to shut up and stop with the whole act.

So the thing is... is it right to say things like this? Is it equal? Should it be encouraged? Am I acting wrong?
You could argue with her. I guess voicing her opinion as such is not wrong, though her opinions certainly are. Maybe you can show her that her way is in no way different from the ideals she hates.