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Aurora
2nd March 2007, 16:09
Im trying to get an idea of what 'marxist-leninism' is from your perspective.If you could maybe make a few points about the main idea's that would be great.

and do you support the banning of factions within vanguard parties?

thanks

bloody_capitalist_sham
2nd March 2007, 17:16
Im trying to get an idea of what 'marxist-leninism' is from your perspective.If you could maybe make a few points about the main idea's that would be great.

and do you support the banning of factions within vanguard parties?

thanks

Well, a vanguard isn't a political party as such.

For example, anarchists are part of the working class vanguard. Since they are class concious workers, that's really all the vanguard is.

The idea of the party, is that the working class must have a political organ to carry out its objectives while its trying to make revolution, and carry out the important/immediate policies to prevent counter revolution.

Lenin though, said that the working class much choose their party. Even if this means different communist parties competing against each other.

Leninism, if your going to be accurate, is about using the best strategy in each set of circumstances. Lenin didn't think that revolutions in other countries should do exactly what the Bolsheviks did.

And the banning of factions within vanguard "parties". Well Lenin frequently changed the structure of the party, there is not reason why this wouldn't have been removed at a later congress.

Modern political parties all have this anyway. Its called "towing the party line". Its so your opponents cannot divide you. You remain unified against opposition, but the party remains internally open to debate.

Aurora
2nd March 2007, 17:56
Ya i know the basics of marxism and leninism and the role of the vanguard but what im interested in is Stalinists who refer to themselves as marxist-leninists.

sorry its a bit confusing maybe i should have said stalinists.

The Grey Blur
2nd March 2007, 17:58
This is pretty confusing Anarion. I don't think Stalinists have different opinions towards the rest of M-Ls towards the vanguard party. Stalinists genuinely believe they follow Lenin's political ideas and that Stalin did this also.

Aurora
2nd March 2007, 18:04
Well look the way i see it is that marx,engels and lenin had entirely diferent views than stalin.for example Lenin put a temporary ban on factions during war communism but the ban was never unbanned as such by stalin.Im just interested to know how the fuck stalinists attempt to justify stalin when he ended up taking up menshevik politics.

Cause i think it is an embarrassment that stalinists call themselves m-l's when their support of stalin completly contradicts this

edit: maybe an admin could change the title to stalinists?

The Grey Blur
2nd March 2007, 18:07
Okay then. I am also often befuddled by how Stalinists can square a lot of his actions (the show trials, the de-revolutionisation of the comintern) with Leninism. I think your title is misleading though and that a lot of Stalinists on this board don't bother defending his actions any more.

bloody_capitalist_sham
2nd March 2007, 19:21
One of the most strange aspects of stalinism, and its defenders today is the total removal of all the social goals that were made by the working class after 1917.

By the 1930's almost all good elements had been lost :(

I think one of the political differences between Leninism (internationalism) and Stalinism (nationalism) was the rejection and acceptance of "all Russian chauvinism".

The Stalinists simply accepted and encouraged chauvinism, and because the Leninist's rejected it, they got purged.

And the title is very misleading.

OneBrickOneVoice
3rd March 2007, 05:39
Originally posted by Permanent [email protected] 02, 2007 05:58 pm
This is pretty confusing Anarion. I don't think Stalinists have different opinions towards the rest of M-Ls towards the vanguard party. Stalinists genuinely believe they follow Lenin's political ideas and that Stalin did this also.
there is no such thing as Stalinism. Its a silly word that makes you look ignorant and gives a completly unmaterialistic analysis. Was Khurshchev a "stalinist"? What about Deng Xioping? What about the Republican Party?


Im trying to get an idea of what 'marxist-leninism' is from your perspective.

Well I am a Marxist-Leninist-Maoist and so I see Marxism-Leninism as Marx's scientific contributions and contributions on class struggle, as well as Lenin's contributions in the form of the means of carry out revolution. Stalin talked about this briefly in his phamplet, Trotskyism or Leninism. He points out several inconsistancies of trotskyism when compared to leninism.

Maoism is Mao's contributions to the Marxist Leninist thought such as emphasis on mass line and critiscism.


the show trials

The Moscow Trial was Fair

1

By D. N. PRITT, K.C., M.P.

I STUDIED the legal procedure in criminal cases in Soviet Russia somewhat carefully in 1932, and concluded (as published at the time in "Twelve Studies in Soviet Russia") that the procedure gave the ordinal accused a very fair trial. Having learnt from my legal friends in Moscow on my return this summer that the principal changes realised or shortly impending were all in the direction of giving greater independence to the Bar and the judges and greater facilities to the accused, I was particularly interested to be able to attend the trial of Zinoviev and Kamenev and others which took place on August 1936.

Here was, born the point of view of a lawyer, a politician, or an ordinary citizen, a very good test of the system.

The charge was a serious one. A group of men, almost all having earned high merit for their services at various stages of the anxious and crowded history of Soviet Russia, still not two decades old, almost all having been under some measure of suspicion for counter-revolutionary or deviationist activities, and most of them having had such activities condoned in the past on assurances of the loyalty in the future, were now charged with long, cold-blooded, deliberate conspiracy to bring about the assassination of Kirov (who was actually murdered in December, 1934), of Stalin, of Voroshilov and other prominent leaders.

Their purpose, it seemed, was merely to seize power for themselves, without any pretence that they had any substantial following in the country and without any real policy or philosophy to replace the existing Soviet Socialism. [They wanted capitalism. – RC ed.]

With all its difficulties and shortcomings, with all the opposition, military or commercial, of the outside world, Soviet Socialism has raised a terribly backward Asiatic State in some 19 years to a State of world importance, of great industrial strength, and above all of a standard of living which, starting somewhere about the level of the more depressed peoples of India, has already overtaken that of many races of Eastern Europe and will soon claim comparison with that of the most favoured of Western industrial people.

And the charge against the men was not merely made. It was admitted, admitted by men the majority of whom were shown by their records to be possessed of physical and moral courage well adapted to protect them from confessing under pressure. And at no stage was any suggestion made by any of them that any sort of improper treatment had been used to persuade them to confess.

The first thing that struck me, as an English lawyer, was the almost free-and-easy dameanour of the prisoners. They all looked well; they all got up and spoke, even at length, whenever they wanted to do so (for the matter of that, they strolled out, with a guard, when they wanted to).

The one or two witnesses who were called by the prosecution were cross-examined by the prisoners who were affected by their evidence, with the same freedom as would have been the case in England.

The prisoners voluntarily renounced counsel; they could have had counsel without fee had they wished, but they preferred to dispense with them. And having regard to their pleas of guilty and to their own ability to speak, amounting in most cases to real eloquence, they probably did not suffer by their decision, able as some of my Moscow colleagues are.

The most striking novelty, perhaps, to an English lawyer, was the easy way in which first one and then another prisoner would intervene in the course of the examination of one of their co-defendants, without any objection from the Court or from the prosecutor, so that one got the impression of a quick and vivid debate between four people, the prosecutor and three prisoners, all talking together, if not actually at the same moment -- a method which, whilst impossible with a jury, is certainly conducive to clearing up disputes of fact with some rapidity

Far more important, however, if less striking, were the final speeches.

In accordance with Soviet law, the prisoners had the last word -- 15 speeches after the last chance of the prosecution to say anything.

The Public prosecutor, Vishinsky, spoke first. He spoke for four or five hours. He looked like a very intelligent and rather mild-mannered English business man.

He spoke with vigour and clarity. He seldom raised his voice. He never ranted, or shouted, or thumped the table. He rarely looked at the public or played for effect.

He said strong things; he called the defendants bandits, and mad dogs, and suggested that they ought to be exterminated. Even in as grave a case as this, some English Attorney-Generals might not have spoken so strongly; but in many cases less grave many English prosecuting counsel have used much harsher words.

He was not interrupted by the Court or by any of the accused. His speech was clapped by the public, and no attempt was made to prevent the applause.

That seems odd to the English mind, but where there is no jury it cannot do much harm, and it was noticeable throughout that the Court’s efforts, by the use of a little bell, to repress the laughter that was caused either by the prisoners’ sallies or by any other incident were not immediately successful.

But now came the final test. The 15 guilty men, who had sought to overthrow the whole Soviet State, now had their rights to speak; and they spoke.

Some at great length, some shortly, some argumentatively, others with some measures of pleading; most with eloquence, some with emotion; some consciously addressing the public in the crowded hall, some turning to the court.

But they all said what they had to say.

They met with no interruption from the prosecutor, with no more than a rare short word or two from the court; and the public itself sat quiet, manifesting none of the hatred it must have felt.

They spoke without any embarrassment or hindrance.

The executive authorities of U.S.S.R. may have taken, by the successful prosecution of this case, a very big step towards eradicating counter-revolutionary activities.

But it is equally clear that the judicature and the prosecuting attorney of U.S.S.R. have taken at least as great a step towards establishing their reputation among the legal systems of the modern world.



2

By PAT SLOAN

recently returned after 5 years in the U.S.S.R.

Whenever there has been a big trial in the U.S.S.R., there has been a flutter in the world Press. This is natural, for big trials in any country are News, and when the trial has the additional feature of being "Bolshevik" into the bargain, its possibilities of making the trial a pretext for any and every kind of anti-Soviet slander, credible or incredible.

And the trial which has just concluded is no exception. It is particularly sensational this time: (a) because a number of well-known ex-members of the Bolshevik Party were the chief accused; (b) because, in connection with the new Draft Constitution, the capitalist press of all countries has been longing to get additional copy for the purpose of minimising the significance of this important document; and © because the fascist offensive [Nazis, Hitler. – RC ed.] against Peace and Democracy is at a critical stage to-day.

As in all previous big Soviet trials, this one has been declared a "frame-up." But just as Mr. Alan Monkhouse’s outburst in court, during the famous Metro-Vickers trial, that the trial was a "frame-up," was never supported by one iota of evidence; so to-day, the allegation of "frame-up" remains unsupported in the slightest degree.

The most serious statements which have appeared in the Press, and the most misleading, are: (a) that Stalin now stands alone, having "murdered" all the "Bolshevik Old Guard"; (b) that the trial was a "frame-up" because the accused all confessed their guilt; and © that this trial detracts from the significance of the new Draft Constitution.

If we just examine the present leadership in the Bolshevik Party, and the positions held by the leading personalities, we find that practically all are Bolsheviks of over thirty years standing. For nearly twenty years, therefore, they worked with Lenin. Just consider these:

Kalinin, President of the U.S.S.R. since 1922, was originally a metal worker. He joined the Party in 1898 (even before it bore the name of "Bolshevik"), and has been a member of the Central Committee of the Party since 1919. Molotov, Chairman of the Council of People’s Commissars, has been a member of the Party since 1906, was a member of the Russian Bureau of the Central Committee in 1919, and Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union for the years following 1920, and one of Lenin’s closest collaborators. Ordjonikidze, Commissar for Heavy Industry, has been a member of the Party since 1903, was elected to the Central Committee in 1912, and played an active part in the leadership of the Revolution in the Caucasus. Voroshilov, Commissar of Defence, was a worker who joined the Party in 1903, played an outstanding part in the Civil War, and was then elected to the Central Committee of the Party. Kaganovitch was a leather-goods worker, who joined the Party in 1911.

So that the youngest of these leaders had worked under Lenin’s leadership for at least ten years, and most of them for twenty years, and have now been thirty years in the Party. So it is fair to say that Stalin remains alone, and the "old guard" has been killed off? Ah, but it may be argued that only those now remain in power who were in minor positions when Lenin was alive.

So let us look at two individuals who, up to 1917, worked in close contact with Lenin all the time. People who had leading positions. Let us examine the records of these persons. In 1917, when the Party was preparing the armed uprising, the two intellectuals, Kamenev and Zinoviev, opposed this uprising in a meeting of the Central Committee. When defeated, they carried their opposition into the public Press---and gave away the Bolsheviks’ plans to the government. At that time Lenin wrote: "I should consider it disgraceful on my part if, on account of my former close relations with these former comrades, I were not to condemn them. I declare outright that I do not consider either of them comrades any longer and that I will fight with all my might, both in the Central Committee and at the Congress, to secure the expulsion of both of them from the Party. … Let Messrs. Zinoviev and Kamenev found their own party from the dozens of disoriented people. … The workers will not join such a party …"

So we find that two intellectuals, who were having "former close relations" with Lenin before October, 1917, and who are now hailed from "Daily Mail" to "Daily Herald" as the "Bolshevik Old Guard," were condemned by Lenin for their treachery at one of the most serious moments of the Revolution, and he tried to get them expelled from the Party. On the other hand, the Bolsheviks who are working in closest collaboration with Stalin to-day are working men, who have been in the Party for from 20 to 30 years, and who rose to power as a result of their activities in the Civil War, after Zinoviev and Kamenev had already discredited themselves.

And as for Trotsky, there is no claim that this man was with Lenin for years before the Revolution. Actually, he called Lenin the "leader of the reactionary wing of the Party" in 1903, and in 1917 he said that the "Bolsheviks had de-Bolshevised themselves" and that "Bolshevik sectarianism" was an "obstacle to unity." And to-day, in a recent interview with the "News Chronicle," he refers to the "new Conservatism" of the Soviet leadership---a direct repetition of his attack on Lenin as far back as 1903.

But even when inside the Party, between July, 1917---when it was clear that only the Bolsheviks could lead the masses to success---until his expulsion, Trotsky opposed Lenin, who was supported throughout by Stalin, on one issue after another. And in the leadership of the Red Army, for which Trotsky became famous, there were continual conflicts with the Party leadership and with Lenin and Stalin. But while Trotsky won fame by his speeches, Stalin was sent to one critical front after another as the representative of the Central Committee, and was determining policy by short and concise telegrams to Lenin.

And when Lenin died, Trotsky buried all his old quarrels with Lenin. No longer did he refer to his earlier accusations that the Bolsheviks had been "bureaucratic" and "reactionary" under Lenin, but introduced his attacks now on the "Stalinist bureaucracy," accusing Stalin of breaking with the policy of Lenin.

It is when the facts are seen in this light that the real position of Trotsky, Zinoviev, and Kamenev, to mention only three of them, can be understood. They are all three discredited ex-leaders, who have lost the confidence of the masses, and therefore could never be elected back to the leading positions in the Party or the State. They are the Ramsay MacDonalds and the Snowdens and the Thomases of the Russian working-class movement.

But the Ramsay MacDonalds and the Snowdens and the Thomases were discredited under capitalism. Therefore, when they lost their leadership of the Labour Movement, when the workers threw them out, they could still find means of advertising their personalities---in politics or capitalist business according to choice---within the framework of capitalism.

But in the U.S.S.R., once the workers have power, a discredited "leader" has no capitalist class to give him a job or finance him for a political career against the workers. In the U.S.S.R. he must submit to work under the leadership of those very leaders who have replaced him. And a worker, as a rule, recognising the need for class discipline above all else, can recognise his mistakes and work in a minor position when defeated on an issue. But the revolutionary intellectuals, time and again in moments of crisis, have shown their tendency to put personal prestige before everything else, and to fight to the bitter end against political opponents, even if this sacrifices the very principles that they were verbally accepting.

Kamenev and Zinoviev had to accept Stalin’s leadership---but it rankled. Their "independence" demanded that they should not submit to this domination by an elected leader with whom they did not agree. Therefore, from open opposition they started to fight in secret. And thus they came in contact with others fighting in secret---the fascist agents in the U.S.S.R.

Trotsky was expelled from the country. Since his expulsion he has never ceased to attack the "Stalinist bureaucracy." But if a bureaucracy rules the U.S.S.R.---then remove the bureaucracy, and Trotsky can return as a hero! It is therefore consistent with Trotsky’s theory that the whole people of the U.S.S.R. are Trotsky was expelled from the country. Since his expulsion he has never ceased to attack the "Stalinist bureaucracy." But if a bureaucracy rules the U.S.S.R.---then remove the bureaucracy, and Trotsky can return as a hero! It is therefore consistent with Trotsky’s theory that the whole people of the U.S.S.R. are dominated, against their will, by a small "bureaucracy," that only the "bureaucracy" need be removed, for him to be welcomed back as a liberator. Is it unreasonable to assume that Trotsky, putting this theory into practice, was working with all and sundry to put an end to the few individuals composing his "bureaucracy," as a way back to power?

But the allegation is then raised---that Stalin is a personal Dictator, without the support of the masses, and that this trial itself would bring mass struggles. Actually, no mass struggles have materialised except in the German fascist press, copiously requoted by the "Daily Herald" in the past few days. And two "aged mortals," students of the working-class movement for sixty years, have been studying the working of the U.S.S.R., and they too have asked the question: "Is Stalin a Dictator?" Here is the reply of Sidney and Beatrice Webb in "Soviet Communism":---

First let it be noted that, unlike Mussolini, Hitler and other modern dictators, Stalin is not invested by law with any authority over his fellow citizens, and not even over the members of the Party to which he belongs. He has not even the extensive power which the Congress of the United States has temporarily conferred upon President Roosevelt." (p. 431.)

"If we are invited to believe that Stalin is, in effect a dictator, we may enquire whether he does, in fact, act in the way that dictators have usually acted? …

"We do not think that the Party is governed by the will of a single person; or that Stalin is the sort of person to claim or desire such a position. He has himself very explicitly denied any such personal dictatorship in terms which, whether or not he is credited with sincerity, certainly accord with our own impression of the facts." (p. 432.)

"The Communist Party of the U.S.S.R. has adopted for its own organisation the pattern which we have described as common throughout the whole Soviet constitution. In this pattern individual dictatorship has no place. Personal decisions are distrusted and elaborately guarded against. In order to avoid the mistakes due to bias, anger, jealousy, vanity and other distempers, from which no person is at all times, entirely free or on his guard, it is desirable that the individual will should always be controlled by the necessity of gaining the assent of colleagues of equal grade, who have candidly discussed the matter, and who have to make themselves jointly responsible for the decision."

Well, so much for the allegations that Stalin personally now stands alone, having put an end to all the "Bolshevik Old Guard." Incidentally, this is the first time in its history that the "Daily Herald" and the "Daily Mail" have wept tears of salt in unison over the fate of "old Bolsheviks."
And not as to the "frame-up." The actual question is: Why did sixteen accused men all confess guilty, participate in a lively way in the court proceedings, and show all their old capacity for public speaking and repartee, and yet plead "Guilty"?

It is not because they had been rotting in dungeons or anything of that kind. Actually, the most recently arrested of the accused were at liberty in the U.S.S.R. until May of this year. And anyway, if they had been maltreated in prison, surely some signs of this would have been visible to the public, or at least one of them would have made some sort of a statement on the matter!

No---the fact is this: The prisoners had four alternatives. First, to plead innocent. Second, to plead guilty---making political speeches against the Soviet government, the "Stalinist bureaucracy," and justifying their crime. Third, to plead guilty and say no more. Fourthly, to confess, and give a full account of their activities. Besides these possibilities, there was no other way open to them---except suicide, the way chosen by Tomsky alone.

To plead innocent was impossible because the proofs were overwhelming, and all these people knew this. They knew what additional evidence could be brought against them if they tried to prove their innocence.

To attack the Soviet government and the "Stalinist bureaucracy" was impossible---because for nearly ten years now these people have had absolutely no political policy to oppose to that of Stalin. The fact is that Stalin’s policy is a success, and this has robbed his opponents of every excuse of a political attack. This fact is openly admitted by the accused.

Outside the U.S.S.R., from his refuge in Norway, Trotsky does issue an "opposing" policy. It is: (a) to proletarianise the non-proletarian elements in the U.S.S.R.; (b) to organise a Workers’ Front, as oppose to a People’s Front, in the capitalist countries. It seems that all the accused were sufficiently alive to political tendencies to realise that to put forward such a line in the court, as their political justification, would be worse than frankly admitting that they had no real alternative policy; that is, no political programme at all.

Actually, the policy of Stalin has consistently been to "proletarianise" the non-proletarian elements in the population, and the policy is now almost completely fulfilled. And internationally, to suggest the disrupting of the People’s Front, and forming a Worker’s Front in its place, hardly deserves mention.

And so, before all the men, against whom the proofs were overwhelming, who had no policy, there was the one possibility of pleading Guilty---with, or without, details of their crime.

Now it happens that not one of the individuals brought to trial has ever in his political career renounced the possibility of making a speech before the whole world. And they remained true to type. And in the court they made their speeches, showed signs of their old joy in "putting it over" and their old oratorical brilliance---and they told the truth to the whole world.

The newspaper, the "Observer" of August 23, no lover of the Bolsheviks, "old guard" or new, was bound to conclude:---

"Stalin is now the acknowledged leader of the unified Party, whose prestige in the country is now unquestioned.

"The defendants admitted frankly that they resorted to individual terror as a last resort, fully knowing that disaffection in the country now is not sufficiently strong to bring them into power in any other way. …

"It is futile to think the trial was staged and the charges trumped up. The Government’s case against the defendants is genuine."

And now, two final matters. First, it is said that the trial was "inopportune," it was a "political blunder" to hold it just now. Of course, if it was a "frame-up," specially staged by the Soviet government, that allegation would be true. But why should the Soviet government, at this most ticklish moment in international affairs, stage a frame-up calculated to run the risk of antagonising all that Liberal opinion all over the world that is more and more supporting the Soviet peace policy, but has a horror of death sentences, even against proven assassins? Three suggestions have been made. First, that the Soviet government wanted to prove that it is "becoming respectable." But the Soviet leaders are intelligent enough to know that trials for treason are never likely to gain a reputation for respectability in Liberal circles, while Bolshevism as such, can never become respectable to the reactionaries, whoever might be killed off. And the second suggestion is that it was to turn attention off Spain within the U.S.S.R.! When the Soviet Trade Unions have collected more money for the Spanish workers than has been collected in any other country!

A third suggestion is---that mass unrest was growing in the U.S.S.R. But is this were so, and if the men who were brought to trial were the leaders of this unrest, then it is absolutely inconceivable, with foreign journalists and radio microphones in front of them, that not one prisoner should have said one word to mobilise this unrest, to give the disgruntled populace courage, and to set a light to that flame of dissatisfaction which was creeping over the country!

It is only the realisation that the accused knew they had no mass support, as they stated in the trial, that can explain their complete lack of any attempt to mobilise opinion and action against the existing Soviet government.

And finally, about the new Soviet Constitution. Is there a single word in this Constitution that says that Terrorists, planning acts of terror in co-operation with fascists, against the leaders of the Soviet State, shall not be tried, and if necessary condemned to death? No---not a word. Because, so long as there are fascist and capitalist states, there will be fascist and capitalist agents in the U.S.S.R.; and so long as the use of violence is a principle of capitalism, carried to all forms of bestial terrorism under fascism; so must the Workers’ State use force to suppress force.

In the Moscow trial the accused were offered the right to a defence counsel, and refused. They themselves pleaded guilty, and explained their crimes, because they had no better way of conducting themselves.

The old discredited leaders of the Russian workers, the MacDonalds and Snowdens of Russia, had no capitalist class to support their further political career [They wanted that class through the NEP. –RC ed.], so they resorted to underground terrorism, and came into line with the capitalist class of Germany with its fascist agents.

The not-yet-completely discredited leader of the British workers, Sir Walter Citrine, who is already famous in the Nazi press for his attacks on the U.S.S.R., protested against the trial, asked for the use of "foreign lawyers" for the defence, and that there be "no shootings." The "Daily Herald," the not-yet-completely discredited "workers’" newspaper, has been quoting columns of false allegations against the U.S.S.R. It has invented the "disappearance" of Mme. Czersky, wife of the Soviet Trade Representative---who was on holiday in the country. It has given reports of "rumours in Moscow" as reported by a "German Press Agency." And the Nazis, in their radio broadcasts, have been quoting chunks from the "Daily Herald"!

The line-up of the discredited "leaders" in the U.S.S.R. with the Nazi Gestapo for purposes of terrorism---which is the only method of struggle now possible against the leadership of the united Soviet workers, can only be distinguished in degree from the line-up of the not-quite-completely discredited Trade Union "leadership" in Britain, the "Daily Herald," and the whole apparatus of Nazi propaganda. In both cases the enemies of the militant workers’ movement, losing the support of the masses, are ready to go to any length to hold on to, or get back, their power. In the U.S.S.R. it is now a struggle of physical force, as in Spain. In Britain it is still only a conflict of propaganda.

The "Daily Herald," quotes Hitler’s propaganda agencies, and Hitler is quoting the "Daily Herald." Their policy is the same.

Trotsky, Kamenev, Zinoviev and the others got assistance from the Hitler Secret Police, and worked with the help of the Nazi agents---their policy was the same.

This policy is: To weaken the Soviet Union by destroying its leadership, and to split the united struggle of the workers who are going forward in alliance with the middle class and peasantry of all countries to fight fascism---in fact, consciously or unconsciously, to strengthen the fascist offensive and its policy of suppression of the workers’ movement in all countries and of wars of aggression all over the world.

Our task is to expose these plans, and to fight with all our strength against this "united front" of all the forces of reaction!



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comintern

mainly had to do with the fact that some parties in the comintern complained that the guidelines were to rigid and did not give flexibility based on national circumstances. The Revolutionary Internationalist Movement, which is the Maoist Internationale today, comes under that critiscism and the "crypto-trot" critiscism from groups like MIM alot because of its internationale like role, however it is completly different because it is very lenient in what it imposes on the parties part of it (other than MLM thought)

OneBrickOneVoice
3rd March 2007, 05:43
Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 07:21 pm
One of the most strange aspects of stalinism, and its defenders today is the total removal of all the social goals that were made by the working class after 1917.

By the 1930's almost all good elements had been lost :(

I think one of the political differences between Leninism (internationalism) and Stalinism (nationalism) was the rejection and acceptance of "all Russian chauvinism".

The Stalinists simply accepted and encouraged chauvinism, and because the Leninist's rejected it, they got purged.

And the title is very misleading.
That is hardly true. Woman's liberation was an important part of Stalin's agenda. As for nationalism and internationalism. Stalin was an internationalist. he aided the revolution with arms and later industrial blueprints in China, and did the same in eastern europe. Socialism in One Country was not "nationalist" it was the idea that, we don't need to take the defeatist path. We can give the power to the collective workers and farmers and industrialize NOW. We DON"T need to wait for every other country to catch up and remain in state-capitalism.


Women in the Stalin era
By Anna Louise Strong, n.d. (for International Women's Day, Northstar Compass, 8 March 1999

Much has been written on the history of this important day for women. In this issue we thought that it would be a good idea to reprint an article by the well-known Anna Louise Strong, who lived in the USSR from 1929 to 1949 as a journalist. Although controversy surrounded her so-called “expulsion from the Soviet Union,” the consequence seems to prove that Anna Louise Strong was used by enemies of socialism. We hope that you will get an insight into these years.

The change in women's status was one of the important social changes in all parts of the USSR. The Revolution gave women legal and political equality: industrialization provided the economic base in equal pay. But in every village women still had to fight the habits of centuries. News came of one village in Siberia, for instance, where, after the collective farms gave women their independent incomes, the wives “called a strike” against wife-beating and smashed that time-honored custom in a week.

“The men all jeered at the first woman we elected to our village soviet,” a village president told me, “but at the next election we elected six women and now it is we who laugh.” I met twenty of these women presidents of villages in 1928 on a train in Siberia, bound for a Women's Congress in Moscow. For most it was their first trip by train and only one had ever been out of Siberia. They had been invited to Moscow “to advise the government” on the demands of women; their counties elected them to go.

The toughest fight of all for women's freedom was in Central Asia. Here, women were chattels, sold in early marriage and never thereafter seen in public without the hideous “paranja,” a long black veil of woven horsehair which covered the entire face, hindering breathing and vision. Tradition gave husbands the right to kill wives for unveiling; the mullahs—Moslem priests supported this by religion. Russian women brought the first message of freedom; they set up child welfare clinics where native women unveiled in each other's presence. Here, the rights of women and the evils of the veil were discussed. The Communist Party brought pressure on its members to permit their wives to unveil.

When I first visited Tashkent, in 1928, a conference of Communist women was announcing: “Our members in backward villages are being violated, tortured and murdered. But this year we must finish the hideous veil; this must be the historic year.” Shocking incidents gave point to this resolution. A girl from a Tashkent school gave her vacation to agitating for women's rights in her home village. Her dismembered body was sent back to school in a cart bearing the words: “That for your women's freedom.” Another woman had refused the attentions of a landlord and married a Communist peasant; a gang of eighteen men, stirred up by the landlord, violated her in the eighth month of pregnancy and threw her body in the river.

Poems were written by women to express their struggle. When Zulfia Khan, a fighter for freedom, was burned alive by the mullahs, the women of her village wrote a lament:

O, woman, the world will not forget your fight for freedom!
Your flame—let them not think that it consumed you.
The flame in which you burned is a torch in our hands.

The citadel of orthodox oppression was “Holy Bokhara.” Here, a dramatic unveiling was organized. Word was spread that “something spectacular” would occur on International Women's Day, March 8. Mass meetings of women were held in many parts of the city on that day, and women speakers urged that everyone “unveil all at once.” Women then marched to the platform, tossed their veils before the speakers and went to parade the streets. Tribunes had been set up where government leaders greeted the women. Other women joined the parade from their homes and tossed their veils to the tribunes. That parade broke the veil tradition in Holy Bokhara. Many women, of course, donned veils again before facing their angry husbands. But the veil from that time on appeared less and less.

Soviet power used many weapons for the freeing of women. Education, propaganda, law all had their place. Big public trials were held of husbands who murdered wives; the pressure of the new propaganda confirmed judges who gave the death sentence for what old custom had not considered crime. The most important weapon for freeing women was, as in Russia proper, the new industrialization.

I visited a new silk mill in Old Bokhara. Its director, a pale, exhausted man, driving without sleep to build a new industry, told me the mill was not expected to be profitable for a long time. “We are training village women into a new staff for future silk mills of Turkestan. Our mill is the consciously applied force which broke the veiling of women; we demand that women unveil in the mill.”

Girl textile workers wrote songs on the new meaning of life when they exchanged the veil for the Russian head-dress, the kerchief.

When I took the road to the factory
I found there a new kerchief,
A red kerchief, a silk kerchief,
Bought with my own hand's labor!
The roar of the factory is in me.
It gives me rhythm.
it gives me energy.

One can hardly read this without recalling, by contrast, Thomas Hood's “The Song of the Shirt,” that expressed the early factories of Britain.
With fingers weary and worn,
With eyelids heavy and red,
A woman sat, in unwomanly rags,
Plying her needle and thread.
Stitch, stitch, stitch, in poverty, hunger and dirt,
And still, with a voice of dolorous pitch,
She sang the song of the shirt.

In capitalist Britain, the factory appeared as a weapon of exploitation for profit. In the USSR, it was not only a means to collective wealth, but a tool consciously used to break past shackles.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/63/323.html

Vargha Poralli
3rd March 2007, 08:01
Marxism Leninism has nothing to do either with Marx or with Lenin. It is just a flashy name adopted by the bureaucratic regime to justify its position among workers.


Originally posted by LeftyHenry+--> (LeftyHenry). he aided the revolution with arms and later industrial blueprints in China,[/b]
And lead to slaughter of CPC cadres by QMT.

Originally posted by LeftyHenry+--> (LeftyHenry)
and did the same in eastern europe[/b]

That is why the workers were so much apathetic to the capitalist restoration by the bureaucracy <_<


[email protected]
Socialism in One Country was

In reality meant opposing/undermining/compromising socialism in other countries(Popular front)


LeftyHenry
The Moscow Trial was Fair

Really you are beyond arguing.If you belive that Moscow Trial was fair then some thing is wrong with you.The Case of Leon Trotsky. (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1937/dewey/)

/* Edit : Edited and deleted a derogatory term */

Whitten
3rd March 2007, 12:00
In reality meant opposing/undermining/compromising socialism in other countries(Popular front)

You really are clueless. Do you even know what the alternative to Socialism in One Country was? Trotsky wanted capitalist restoration throughout the Soviet Union.

bloody_capitalist_sham
3rd March 2007, 12:31
Also, you have to come tp terms with the rise of Soviet millionaires in the 1930&#39;s and 1940&#39;s.

Its complete madness to assume socialism can have millionaires form within it.

Aurora
3rd March 2007, 14:45
You really are clueless. Do you even know what the alternative to Socialism in One Country was? Trotsky wanted capitalist restoration throughout the Soviet Union.What are you on about?Trotsky recognised that the SU would return to capitalism if democracy wasnt restored.Therefore he wanted a political revolution where the beurocracy was eliminated and power was restored to the soviets.

And thanks for the posts everyone

Vargha Poralli
3rd March 2007, 15:42
Trotsky wanted capitalist restoration throughout the Soviet Union.


If you are asserting some thing you should back it up with solid references. It is not me it is you who is really clueless.

OneBrickOneVoice
3rd March 2007, 16:55
Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 08:01 am




Marxism Leninism has nothing to do either with Marx or with Lenin. It is just a flashy name adopted by the bureaucratic regime to justify its position among workers.

Right well studies have proved that assertion false. Also, if you actuallly look at Stalin&#39;s leadership, he thought that beauracracy was necessary in order to industrialize the Soviet Union in 10 years while it was 100 years behind. He then thought that it would be determental after such and by the 40s he had tried to pass a more democratic constitution, which was reject by the Supreme Soviet led by Krushchev and the newly forming nomenklatura.


Contact: Henk Klomp
[email protected]
31-70-3440714
Netherlands Organization for Scientific Research
Stalin was faithful Marxist/Leninist

Stalin remained true to the Marxist ideal of a classless and stateless world society until his death in 1953. This is the conclusion of researchers at Amsterdam University (UvA) who studied Stalin&#39;s annotations in books by Marx, Engels and Lenin in his private library. The research was carried out in the form of a project funded by the Dutch research organisation NWO. Many people have viewed Stalin -who always considered himself Lenin&#39;s most faithful disciple- as having betrayed Marxist principles from the moment he came to power. However, the researchers say that Stalin&#39;s words and deeds are in fact reconcilable.

The notes originate from the period between 1917 and 1953 and show that the dictator continued to adhere to such Marxist goals as the abolition of the state and the creation of classless society. Moreover, Stalin&#39;s correspondence and discussions with such Communist leaders as Mao Zedong and Palmiro Togliatti show a continuing faith in the spread of communism and "world revolution".

Stalin has often been accused of betraying Marxism because of the way he built up a centralised state and because of his principle of "socialism in one country". These political aims are supposed to have undermined the Marxist doctrines of a classless society and world revolution. Stalin&#39;s patriotism is also supposed not to fit in with the Marxist world view but to represent a return to ancient Russian traditions.

The Amsterdam historians say that Stalin was not in fact the originator of the idea of "socialism in one country". This principle states that an internationally isolated socialist state has long-term viability and constitutes an intervening phase on the way to the ultimate classless and stateless world society. The idea in fact originated with the German Social Democrat Georg Vollmar, and the orthodox Marxist Karl Kautsky also propounded the idea of an autarkic socialist state when explaining his Erfurt Programme. His comments on the Erfurt Programme were virtually the bible for Marxists in the early twentieth century. Thus the idea of socialism in one country was originally developed within the Socialist Second International, which the Russian Bolshevik party originally belonged to.

According to the researchers, Stalin&#39;s patriotism has a Jacobin origin. The Jacobins were a left-wing French political movement in the eighteenth century who aimed to use revolution to revive their fatherland. Stalin, too, saw this as his main aim, believing that it could only be brought about through a revolutionary transformation. He considered the Tsarist-capitalist system as responsible for weakening the Russian state.

The political works in Stalin&#39;s private library are almost all by Marxist authors. Books by non-revolutionary Russian political thinkers are not included. The library consisted originally of some 19,500 titles, 5000 of them on political and related topics.


###
Further information:

Dr. Erik van Ree (UvA)
T +31 20 525 2470
E-mail [email protected]


And lead to slaughter of CPC cadres by QMT.

Um no. Not really. The New Democratic Stage saw major party growth, and laid the foundations for people&#39;s war.


That is why the workers were so much apathetic to the capitalist restoration by the bureaucracy <_<

Not sure what you&#39;re saying however, if you&#39;re saying that the "workers" completly prefer capitalism that is bullshit.

There are all kind of studies that have been taken which prove this false.

Bulgaria (http://www.ce-review.org/99/19/cosmaciuc19.html)

almost 64 percent of Romanians said that life was better when the Communist dictator Nicolae Ceausescu was leading the country.

Poland (can&#39;t find link but its on BBC)

Poland: 40 per cent of Poles positive about communism, opinion survey shows
BBC Monitoring European - Political. London: Aug 2, 2002. pg. 1

Warsaw, 2 August: Forty per cent of Poles in a recent OBOP poll spoke positively about the pre-1989 Polish United Workers Party (communist party), 35 per cent criticized its rule. Forty-five per cent claimed Poland&#39;s situation deteriorated under the first post- communist government (1989-1993), 37 per cent said the country&#39;s situation improved in those years. Thirty per cent spoke positively about the 1993-97 left-wing-peasant coalition (SLD-PSL), 44 per cent said matters took a turn for the worse under the SLD-PSL.

Thirty-nine per cent said they would rather live in communist Poland during its final two decades than in today&#39;s reality. This was the first time that the Polish communist party&#39;s supporters outnumbered its opponents.

Russia (http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2006/diciembre/vier8/51ruso.html)


Fifteen years later, 56.3% of Russians lament the collapse of the Soviet Union, according to a survey by the Bashkirov and Partners consultancy.

Among citizens of Russia, the Ukraine and Belarus that sentiment brings together 69 out of every 100 persons interviewed by the Euroasian Monitor agency.


In reality meant opposing/undermining/compromising socialism in other countries(Popular front)

Popular Front was an ultra-leftist deviant. The Soviet Union actually did come to aid the Spanish Anti-fa. Have you heard of the International Brigades? They were a well trained, funded, army made up of worldwide volunteers under Soviet organization and funding.

THe Soviets also, were the only ones to give air support when the Luftwaffe and Italian Airforce attacked.


Really go to a mental Hospital.The Case of Leon Trotsky. (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1937/dewey/)

Nice to see you can keep things civil g.ram :) Did you bother to read the 2 eyewitness cases I provided?

Vargha Poralli
3rd March 2007, 17:46
Originally posted by LeftyHenry+--> (LeftyHenry)Also, if you actuallly look at Stalin&#39;s leadership, he thought that beauracracy was necessary in order to industrialize the Soviet Union in 10 years while it was 100 years behind.[/b]

My point is not industrialisation of Soviet union. It is bound to happen there even if it had been under Tsar. It is the toll it took for the bureaucrats to hold the power it gained during the Civil war is the case.


Originally posted by LeftyHenry+--> (LeftyHenry)He then thought that it would be determental after such and by the 40s he had tried to pass a more democratic constitution, which was reject by the Supreme Soviet led by Krushchev and the newly forming nomenklatura.[/b]

Khrushchev was never in a position to succeed Stalin. It was Beria and Molotov in the race. Khrushchev denounciation of Stalin is just to gain political leverage against them which is why he had not been opposed by people during that time.



Originally posted by LeftyHenry
Um no. Not really. The New Democratic Stage saw major party growth, and laid the foundations for people&#39;s war.


Bullshit. Mao even acknowledges that this policy(among many other things) was a "Mistake" made by Stalin. Anyway it helped Mao indirectly because it helped him to get rid of many political rivals of him.


Originally posted by LeftyHenry
Not sure what you&#39;re saying however, if you&#39;re saying that the "workers" completly prefer capitalism that is bullshit.

Nice playing on words LeftyHenry. You are intentionally twisting what I have said. I didn&#39;t say workers prefer capitalism I said when the Bureaucracy restored capitalism workers did not oppose it. The whole events of the 1989 to 1991 was really a great shock even to CIA.The shock was not the fall of communism but the total non action of common people during that time. Even the coup against Gorbachev failed becuase it did not gain any support from people.

And the shit you have posted about People prefering Communism is just Nostalgia not genuine feeling for return of Socialism because people didn&#39;t have any power during those times.


Originally posted by =LeftyHenry
Popular Front was an ultra-leftist deviant.

Really ??/ :blink: when a unity is needed with social democrats to fight Fascism Stalin became an ultra left which clearly led the path to Hitler to take power without even firing a shot, Then came the popular front to subordinate CP&#39;s to join ally with and join Bourgeoisie governments and Imperialists to "fight Fascism" <_<


Originally posted by LeftyHenry
The Soviet Union actually did come to aid the Spanish Anti-fa.

Yes that is why they slaughterd members of POUM and destroyed revolutions of Catlonia.And joined hand to hand with liberals and capitalists in Spain to stab workers at the back.


[email protected]
Have you heard of the International Brigades? They were a well trained, funded, army made up of worldwide volunteers under Soviet organization and funding.


Then why Franco captured power ? :blink:


LeftyHenry
Nice to see you can keep things civil g.ram :) Did you bother to read the 2 eyewitness cases I provided?

Number of eyewitness claimed that nothing happened in Best Bakery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_Bakery_case) during the Gujarat Carnage. Even the main witness(Zaheera Sheikh whose family who was murdered) turned hostile during the peak of trial. That does not mean that nothing happened and 14 people were not burned alive. :angry: .Yes I read the shit piece you have posted fully and I have provided a source that debunks "Claims" of your witnesses.

OneBrickOneVoice
3rd March 2007, 18:34
My point is not industrialisation of Soviet union. It is bound to happen there even if it had been under Tsar. It is the toll it took for the bureaucrats to hold the power it gained during the Civil war is the case.

no not really because it wasn&#39;t happening under the tsar. Care to elaborate?


Khrushchev was never in a position to succeed Stalin. It was Beria and Molotov in the race. Khrushchev denounciation of Stalin is just to gain political leverage against them which is why he had not been opposed by people during that time.

Don&#39;t see the relevence. Point is that it was the bureacray who opposed Stalin post-industrialization


Bullshit. Mao even acknowledges that this policy(among many other things) was a "Mistake" made by Stalin. Anyway it helped Mao indirectly because it helped him to get rid of many political rivals of him.

No Mao supported the idea of New Democracy. And its true the party grew, it was during this time that Mao was able to gain access to the countryside and organize support among the rural proletariat.


Nice playing on words LeftyHenry. You are intentionally twisting what I have said. I didn&#39;t say workers prefer capitalism I said when the Bureaucracy restored capitalism workers did not oppose it.

That&#39;s because it wasn&#39;t socialist anyhow. They didn&#39;t oppose naked capitalism because they were already in State Capitalism. Plus there was little they could do. The events happened extremely fast and the hardline faction of the CPSU was always in retreat. Resistance occured after power had changed.


And the shit you have posted about People prefering Communism is just Nostalgia not genuine feeling for return of Socialism because people didn&#39;t have any power during those times.


trot bullshit. Maybe it is nostaglia but the people are more and more showing approval for leaders like Krushchev and Brezhev who carried out the cold war, but Lenin and Stalin.


when a unity is needed with social democrats to fight Fascism Stalin became an ultra left which clearly led the path to Hitler to take power without even firing a shot, Then came the popular front to subordinate CP&#39;s to join ally with and join Bourgeoisie governments and Imperialists to "fight Fascism" <_< [QUOTE]

wtf are you talking about?

[QUOTE]Yes that is why they slaughterd members of POUM and destroyed revolutions of Catlonia.

um no not really the Soviet Union didn&#39;t do any of that. If you&#39;re talking about the PCE, that was going both ways. Also POUM was clearly documented as having connections with the Nazis to create confrontation between PCE and anarchists. Contact Intelligitimate he is a member on this board. He posted about it many times.


Then why Franco captured power ? :blink:

he would have captured power alot sooner if it wasn&#39;t for the International Brigades. If it wasn&#39;t for them the Anarchists would&#39;ve lost Madrid and the war would be over in a year.


I have provided a source that debunks "Claims" of your witnesses.

not really.

bloody_capitalist_sham
3rd March 2007, 18:40
Lefty Henry, you really know very little about this subject.


no not really because it wasn&#39;t happening under the tsar.

It was happening under the Tsarist regime.



wtf are you talking about?


Its ultra leftism, on stalin&#39;s behalf, because he said not to work with the socialist and trade union organisations in an attempt to stop the Nazi rise to power. Working together as a class, the workers could have defeated the Nazi&#39;s.

Thats why its ultra leftism.

Vargha Poralli
3rd March 2007, 19:06
no not really because it wasn&#39;t happening under the tsar. Care to elaborate?

It happened under the Tsar regime. From where did the workers of petrograd arise from ? From the sky ?



Don&#39;t see the relevence. Point is that it was the bureacray who opposed Stalin post-industrialization

It is relevant. Khrushchev did not end the structure created by Stalin. And Stalin had not intention to bring deomcracy USSR.


No Mao supported the idea of New Democracy. And its true the party grew, it was during this time that Mao was able to gain access to the countryside and organize support among the rural proletariat.

Mao was really lucky to escape from KMT(Long March). And Mao was forced to oragnise in countryside because in cities almost CPC was wiped out entirely. Mao did not gain power by revolution but by Military action.



That&#39;s because it wasn&#39;t socialist anyhow. They didn&#39;t oppose naked capitalism because they were already in State Capitalism. Plus there was little they could do. The events happened extremely fast and the hardline faction of the CPSU was always in retreat. Resistance occured after power had changed.

I am glad that you acknowledge that. It was never socialist from 1927.


trot bullshit. Maybe it is nostaglia but the people are more and more showing approval for leaders like Krushchev and Brezhev who carried out the cold war, but Lenin and Stalin.


Yes it is nostalgia. Especially Brezhnev under whom the Soviet Economy had stagnated had been admired now as much as Stalin.


wtf are you talking about?

This (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1930-ger/index.htm)


Also POUM was clearly documented as having connections with the Nazis to create confrontation between PCE and anarchists

POUM broke with Trotsky as early as 1935. They ahve no more been trotskyites. So don&#39;t piss on their graves to prove your servitude to Stalin school of Falsificattion.


Contact Intelligitimate he is a member on this board. He posted about it many times.

Really :lol: . So to have a knowledge about Spanish Inquisition and Crusades I have to get the opinion of Pope ? :P or to get facts about Gandhi I should ask RSS.


not really.

really ?

Whitten
3rd March 2007, 19:54
Originally posted by Anarion+March 03, 2007 02:45 pm--> (Anarion @ March 03, 2007 02:45 pm)
You really are clueless. Do you even know what the alternative to Socialism in One Country was? Trotsky wanted capitalist restoration throughout the Soviet Union.What are you on about?Trotsky recognised that the SU would return to capitalism if democracy wasnt restored.Therefore he wanted a political revolution where the beurocracy was eliminated and power was restored to the soviets. [/b]

g.ram
If you are asserting some thing you should back it up with solid references. It is not me it is you who is really clueless.

Trotsky opposed continuing to progress towards socialism within the soviet union, claiming it was possible without a world wide permenant revolution. He wanted to keep the bourgeois democratic system until the west became socialist.

Redmau5
3rd March 2007, 20:03
Originally posted by Whitten+March 03, 2007 07:54 pm--> (Whitten @ March 03, 2007 07:54 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 02:45 pm

You really are clueless. Do you even know what the alternative to Socialism in One Country was? Trotsky wanted capitalist restoration throughout the Soviet Union.What are you on about?Trotsky recognised that the SU would return to capitalism if democracy wasnt restored.Therefore he wanted a political revolution where the beurocracy was eliminated and power was restored to the soviets.

g.ram
If you are asserting some thing you should back it up with solid references. It is not me it is you who is really clueless.

Trotsky opposed continuing to progress towards socialism within the soviet union, claiming it was possible without a world wide permenant revolution. He wanted to keep the bourgeois democratic system until the west became socialist. [/b]
Any evidence from Trotsky&#39;s works where he makes such claims?

Aurora
3rd March 2007, 20:18
Originally posted by Whitten
Trotsky opposed continuing to progress towards socialism within the soviet union, claiming it was possible without a world wide permenant revolution. He wanted to keep the bourgeois democratic system until the west became socialist.
haha dont embarass yourself whitten&#33;

"If the Soviet bureaucracy succeeds, with its treacherous policy of "people’s fronts", in insuring the victory of reaction in Spain and France—and the Communist International is doing all it can in that direction—the Soviet Union will find itself on the edge of ruin. A bourgeois counterrevolution rather than an insurrection of the workers against the bureaucracy will be on the order of the day. If, in spite of the united sabotage of reformists and "Communist" leaders, the proletariat of western Europe finds the road to power, a new chapter will open in the history of the Soviet Union. The first victory of a revolution in Europe would pass like an electric shock through the Soviet masses, straighten them up, raise their spirit of independence, awaken the traditions of 1905 and 1917, undermine the position of the Bonapartist bureaucracy, and acquire for the Fourth International no less significance than the October revolution possessed for the Third. Only in that way can the first Workers’ State be saved for the socialist future."- Leon Trotsky

There another quote which i cant find but it goes something like this:
"If the present bureaucratic dictatorship[in the soviet union] is not replaced by a new socialist order it will inevitably revert to capitalism with a catastrophic decline in industry and culture."

These are from The Revolution Betrayed (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1936-rev/index.htm)

Whitten
3rd March 2007, 20:25
What exactly do you think "socialism in one country" is? It was attempting to build socialism without waiting for a western internationalist revolution.

grove street
4th March 2007, 04:02
Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 07:06 pm



Don&#39;t see the relevence. Point is that it was the bureacray who opposed Stalin post-industrialization

It is relevant. Khrushchev did not end the structure created by Stalin. And Stalin had not intention to bring deomcracy USSR.

http://clogic.eserver.org/2005/furr.html

(&#39;&#39;Stalin and the struggle for democratic reform&#39;&#39;.)

Khrushchev did end the system created by Stalin. What did you think his de-Stalinsation period was for?

Khrushchev liqudated the collectives and re-introduced elements of market-capatalism.

Vargha Poralli
4th March 2007, 05:22
Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 01:55 am
What exactly do you think "socialism in one country" is? It was attempting to build socialism without waiting for a western internationalist revolution.
But in that process it took every thing to undermine any workers intiatives in other countries.

First they opposed the strategy of United front to fight Fascism. Then after Hitler&#39;s rise to power they Subordinated the CP&#39;s to a coalition with Liberal and bourgeoisie greatly compromising the workers rights in the name of popular front.That is not building socialism in other countries.

Third International after Lenin (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1928-3rd/index.htm)


Khrushchev liqudated the collectives and re-introduced elements of market-capatalism.

Sorry that was done by Gorbachev not Khrushchev.

grove street
4th March 2007, 07:11
Originally posted by g.ram+March 04, 2007 05:22 am--> (g.ram @ March 04, 2007 05:22 am)
[email protected] 04, 2007 01:55 am
What exactly do you think "socialism in one country" is? It was attempting to build socialism without waiting for a western internationalist revolution.
But in that process it took every thing to undermine any workers intiatives in other countries.

First they opposed the strategy of United front to fight Fascism. Then after Hitler&#39;s rise to power they Subordinated the CP&#39;s to a coalition with Liberal and bourgeoisie greatly compromising the workers rights in the name of popular front.That is not building socialism in other countries.

Third International after Lenin (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1928-3rd/index.htm)


Khrushchev liqudated the collectives and re-introduced elements of market-capatalism.

Sorry that was done by Gorbachev not Khrushchev. [/b]
The move towards Capatalism started with Khrushchev and ended with Gorbachev.

Vargha Poralli
4th March 2007, 07:20
Originally posted by grove [email protected] 04, 2007 12:41 pm

The move towards Capatalism started with Khrushchev and ended with Gorbachev.
No you are wrong. If you want to scapegoat Khruschev then Stalin should also be blamed. Khruschev didn&#39;t change the structure left by Stalin. Nobody did want to change the structure.

The Author
4th March 2007, 15:36
Originally posted by [email protected] March 4, 2007, 03:20 am
If you want to scapegoat Khruschev then Stalin should also be blamed.

"Blaming Stalin for everything would be historical simplism." --Fidel Castro.

There&#39;s actually an interesting text produced from a comrade from Northstar Compass in their December 2006 issue of their periodical. I shall reproduce here this text, concerning the Khrushchevite deviation and the restoration of capitalism in the Soviet Union, particularly beginning with the emergence of the Khrushchevites at least at the time right after the end of the Second World War.


Thoughts about the Class Roots of Counter-Revolution in the Territory of the Soviet Union

Alexei Danko
Leningrad
Published in Proletarskaya Gazeta, No. 26

I will not try to give a solid and complete answer to the question posed above given the shortness of this article and the lack of proper preparation. However, I feel obliged to at least draw the attention of revolutionary proletarians to the need to study this question deeply and scientifically for the benefit of the future class struggle of the Russian and international proletariat. Moreover, if we call ourselves Marxists we should not "close our eyes to reality", regardless of how bitter and tough this truth may be for us. We need to clarify the truth and its fundamental essence among the proletarians so that the workers are not deceived by the tricks of the bourgeoisie. It is necessary to explain the essence scientifically from the point of view of dialectical and historical materialism so that the working class can see itself as the maker of historical progress and so that it does not leave all the class responsibility to the vanguard or its leaders.

In the conditions of the bourgeois system the working class is the progressive class, which develops the revolutionary class struggle against the reactionary class of capitalists. The Communist Party is essentially the political vanguard, the most advanced section of the working class. In the process of class struggle political leaders arise, i.e. the cadre who are best prepared and capable for revolutionary struggle, "the best of the best" of a small group of professional revolutionaries.

In correspondence to the Marxist-Leninist teachings, the leading force of the revolution is the most advanced class in the concrete stage of historical development, which opposes the decadent system and the class that embodies it. The role of the individual in the process of revolutionary struggle (including any political leader) is undoubtedly great, but can become determining only in particularly tense moments of the struggle, i.e. temporarily.

Therefore it would be fundamentally wrong to state that the dictatorship of the proletariat in the Soviet Union depended mainly on the leadership and political activity of comrade Stalin, and that the counter-revolution in the country after the death of comrade Stalin was successful as a result of a conspiracy and the will of a bunch of Soviet revisionists who took over political power (the so called "Khrushchevites").

During the period of socialism, after the proletarian revolution and the suppression of the open class resistance of the bourgeoisie and the most obvious class enemies, for a long time there remain non-antagonistic, non-belligerent classes and social strata, as well as remnants of capitalism and certain social inequalities. As a result of this it is natural that under socialism the class struggle continues to exist in different manifestations and forms and, given certain negative class conditions, counter-revolution may become a real threat. The main revolutionary force capable of preventing counter-revolutionary threats or suppressing counter-revolutionary activities, as before, is the working class led by its political vanguard – the communist party. Therefore the most important task of the party is to establish a tight and relentless control over the purity of its members and to develop a continuous ideological struggle against anti-proletarian ideologies and political "teachings" – a tenacious dictatorship against any counter-revolutionary expression and for a general political party line aimed at the liquidation of remnants of capitalism.

The essence of the existence of the party consists in that it becomes the brains of the working class and essentially becomes a monolithic organism together with the working class. If it is isolated from the working class, the Communist party ceases to be its political vanguard and necessarily degenerates from the class point of view; the party should be able to predict the social-class issues in society, to understand them in a timely manner and to recommend to the working class the most effective methods to "cure them".

The petty-bourgeois ideology and its consolidation in society is particularly dangerous for the dictatorship of the proletariat. The intelligentsia (including officers of the army and whatever repressive organs) and the peasantry are objectively massive conductors of the petty-bourgeois psychology. The influence of petty-bourgeois ideology on the working class is also significant, since the working class to a sufficiently large degree includes recruits from the petty-bourgeoisie and it is not separated from it by a "Chinese Wall". At the time of the Great Patriotic War (most commonly known as the Second World War, editor’s note) the working class suffered tremendous losses especially in terms of old party cadre who had experience in the class struggle and a stable class psychology. They were replaced by youths without sufficient class solidity.

The proletarian ideology and the petty-bourgeois ideology express different class interests. Therefore it is necessary to have a very clear conception about the differences between the interests of the petty-bourgeoisie and the interests of the working class

It is the petty-bourgeois masses who reproduce bourgeois aspirations in socialist society and who engender a new bourgeoisie. To neglect the struggle against the petty-bourgeois ideology and to lose revolutionary awareness of this cowardly enemy of the proletariat may become a mortal danger for the interests of the proletarian revolution and socialism.

Under capitalism a certain fraction of the petty-bourgeoisie becomes an active ally of the proletariat, especially when the contradictions between large capital and that of the petty owner deepen. Under socialism the petty-bourgeoisie, in conformity to its class essence and its class ambiguity, may become a dangerous counter-revolutionary force when the struggle against the petty-bourgeois ideology by the communist party and the working class loses momentum. The petty-bourgeoisie then goes on the offensive when opportunities for personal profiteering exist and when certain goods or services become scarce. The petty-bourgeois easily change their class attitude depending on the situation and due to the selfish class interests of the petty owners since they function only according to considerations of the individual or family, purely animal instincts and they cannot think about social life in perspective, in global terms. The attitude and political activity of the petty-bourgeoisie often even becomes irresponsible and rather aggressive.

The realization of petty-bourgeois aspirations under socialism happens through the necessary preservation of certain elements of capitalism and the application of the "bourgeois right", which it is impossible to liquidate in a short period of time. For instance, take the distribution according to labor, which necessarily results in income differentiation and the existence of significant differences between mental and manual labor and between the city and the countryside. A concrete expression and source of petty-bourgeois aspirations are the existence of private peasant plots, private real estate and dachas, goods of excessive luxury, the special status of managerial and intellectual labor, the existence of commodity-money relations in the sphere of distribution of products, commodities and services of broad demand and so forth. These elements can only be eliminated by means of gradual liquidation of "bourgeois right" in the process of the progressive development of the material and technical basis of socialism. Only in this way can the conditions which reproduce the petty-bourgeois system with all its negative manifestations be liquidated.

The forms of class struggle are diverse: from the ideological struggle to armed struggle including civil war. Marxists acknowledge all forms of class struggle. In order to secure victory in the class struggle as a whole, Leninist Bolsheviks should first attain victory in the ideological struggle. At that time they became victorious. Nevertheless the ideological struggle continued. The ideological struggle between petty-bourgeois ideology, which has a multiplicity of forms, and proletarian ideology continued in different forms during the years of proletarian socialism: at times it weakened; at times it became more prominent. The thesis of comrade Stalin about the continuation of the class struggle in the process of construction of socialism is convincingly confirmed by real practice, by real life, since the only criterion of truth is practice.

Marxism-Leninism teaches that the pre-conditions for the change of one social system to another develop within society long before the revolutionary events. I am convinced that this fundamental thesis also applied to the case of counter-revolution in the socialist country.

Since we are dealing here with the victory of counter-revolution and the defeat of the dictatorship of the proletariat in the USSR, therefore in the Soviet Union during the post-war period decisive changes in the correlation of class forces took place, not in favor of the proletarian forces, especially within the Bolshevik party. As a result of the class struggle these anti-proletarian forces took over. No other interpretation here is possible if we are to stick to the science of classes and class struggle.

The invasion by fascist Germany of the socialist Soviet Union should not be considered in a primitive fashion, from the point of view of a regular aggression of one country against another. In this deadly conflict two irreconcilable class forces faced each other: the most reactionary forces of capitalism siding with fascist Germany and the progressive communist forces represented by the Soviet Union, which made a breakthrough in the future of world civilization and was dangerous for capitalism as a whole. While paying the price of countless victims and sacrifices, the Soviet people led by the Bolshevik party defended the independence of the proletarian state, expelled the aggressor from the territory of its socialist country and crushed the fascist beast in its own lair. The working class of the Soviet Union ferociously defended its revolutionary conquests against the same reactionary forces of world capital. However, at the same time the class enemy managed to inflict a mortal wound on the Bolshevik party and the dictatorship of the proletariat in the Soviet Union from which later the power of the working class and proletarian socialism died in the USSR.

The Bolshevik party was the vanguard of the working class of the Soviet Union not only as a result of its specific political position. The Bolshevik party continuously directed its best party cadre to the most difficult and responsible sections of practical work, where they outstandingly demonstrated the high level of authority and respect enjoyed by party members among non-party comrades due to success in concrete practical deeds. In the years of the Great Patriotic War the Bolshevik party directed its best party cadre and the best representatives of the working class to the hardest sections of the front and the rear. The communists were the first to enter battle and the first to die. Therefore the losses among party cadre were extremely severe, especially during the first years of the war. However, the party membership grew, its ranks filled to a great degree by heroes of the front since heroism in the front was not only a mass phenomenon but an obvious one and the communists were the best of those heroes. Therefore the title of communist became a special distinction.

The fact that the overwhelming majority of new party cadre did not have party and political experience helped to dilute the class content of its ranks. As a result of this development especially during the years of the war, the party suffered a significant qualitative damage in the political sense of the word. Nevertheless, this should not be considered an error or lack of political foresight by the Bolshevik party. During the war the fate of the proletarian state was being decided at the front. Therefore the most important political goal, slogan and task at the time was: EVERYTHING FOR VICTORY. All the politics and life of the Bolsheviks were devoted to the latter. Therefore, in virtue of this the heroes of the front were not only heroes but were the political vanguard in the most advanced aspect of the practice of the class struggle, i.e. they essentially made up the base of the party under those conditions. This completely conformed to the politics of the party and the class demands of the war period, but it had within itself the threat of petty-bourgeois degeneration of the party ranks especially due to peasants and intellectuals.

During wartime the consciousness of the peasant masses was dominated by the psychology of the peasant-laborer. Why? The proletarian revolution and the success of socialism greatly improved the standards of living of the peasantry. The proletarian power provided the peasants with land and the necessary means, modern agricultural technique under preferential conditions through the creation of the machine-tractor stations (MTS), support in case of poor crops, many social-cultural benefits, it liberated the peasantry from the dangers of chaotic market relations when realizing their production, etc. Under the tsars, the peasants could not even dream about such things. Therefore soldiers from peasant background displayed great heroism in the front lines, defending their class interests, and through this, the defense of the proletarian revolution and the proletarian state from the belligerence of the fascist invaders. Because of this the communist psychology dominated in the consciousness of the peasant-laborer during the years of the war, compelling many peasants to join the Bolshevik party, which defended the interests of the peasantry at the cost of many lives of the best children of the party.

In the post-war period the situation fundamentally changed. Having returned from the front, the peasantry faced significant material difficulties. The kolkhozes, many of which were destroyed during the war, could barely fulfill the state contracts. Industry faced the need to accommodate to the requirements of peaceful times and could not provide the peasants with the necessary industrial goods and technique rapidly enough, while at the same it justly demanded that the peasants increase the production of food and agricultural products. The private plots of peasants were not productive enough; food, clothing and many other necessary means for a modest family life were scarce. Those who fought in the front had already suffered severe scarcity, enjoyed war glory and many dreamed of a better life. This impelled the peasantry to focus on its own material interests, and that included taking advantage of the glory earned in the war and the party membership. These factors encouraged the peasantry to develop strong elements of private thinking in their consciousness. However, as a result of the duality of the peasants’ psychology, the psychology of the petty owner and the psychology of the laborer, most of the peasant masses trusted the Bolshevik party with regard to the construction of communism since they were already convinced of the economic benefits brought by socialism. On the other hand, with regard to questions of everyday life and activity, the peasants as a rule gave priority to their private interests over the interests of society.

Such is the dialectics of the psychology of the peasant, a petty owner and a laborer at the same time. This psychology was inherited and further propagated even more aggressively by city inhabitants originally coming from the peasantry.

To defend the party ranks from the dangerous contaminations from elements with the psychology of the petty owner was already a very complicated task. Firstly, such elements already had become a large section of the party. Secondly, these elements had war achievements in serving the socialist Fatherland and this prevented other comrades from exposing them.

The intellectuals, in virtue of their social position, always serve the dominating class regardless of the social system.

Under capitalism the intellectuals, on the one hand also relate to the exploited class. On the other hand, the intellectuals, as a result of their social functions, participate in the accomplishment of the exploitation of the workers and peasants, since it is though the intellectuals that the capitalist class exerts and regulates its direct domination, i.e. the intellectuals are used as tools for the exploitation of the workers and peasants.

Under socialism the intellectuals are bound to execute the will of the dictatorship of the proletariat. Many intellectuals see themselves unwillingly forced to offer such a "service", since they have to serve the interests of the workers and peasants whom the intellectuals had traditionally considered as lower classes. The standard of living of the intellectuals depends on their social position in society. This explains the tendency of the intellectuals to indulge in such social illnesses as careerism, bureaucratism, idealism, overestimation of their social role and the will to have a special position in society. To a great degree this explains the tendency of the intellectuals to join the Bolshevik party. As a result of their social-class specifics, the duality of their class position, the intellectuals are easy targets for petty-bourgeois influence and decomposition.

It is common to the intellectuals and peasants, who are influenced by individualism, to make the country’s leadership responsible for the organization of social life and the party.

In the post-war period the Bolshevik party was dangerously infiltrated by such petty-bourgeois elements.

It is necessary to note that "if we do not close our eyes to reality we must admit that at the present time the proletarian policy of the Party is not determined by the character of its membership, but by the enormous undivided prestige enjoyed by the small group which might be called the Old Guard of the Party. A slight conflict within this group will be enough, if not to destroy this prestige, at all events to weaken the group to such a degree as to rob it of its power to determine policy" (V.I. Lenin Collected Works, 4th English Edition, Progress Publishers, Moscow, 1966, volume 33, page 257).

As a result of the class struggle during the war and in the post-war period this "small group … of the Old Guard of the Party" also suffered great losses and became even smaller and after the death of Stalin "slight conflicts within this group" weakened it to the extent that it did not have the "power to determine policy."

The war and the severe military consequences inflicted tremendous losses on the Soviet Union not only from the class, material point of view and in terms of population, but also strengthened a number of dangerous tendencies for the dictatorship of the proletariat.

The war period demanded that the economy re-direct the focus of the development of the forces of production and the efforts of all of society on the needs of the struggle against the fascist aggression. In the course of accomplishing this goal the production relations also suffered changes toward a strictly top-down structure. This shift took place not only in the organization of the economy but in all fields of social life including politics. The need to liquidate the most severe consequences of the war also required a speedy economic restoration and the development of the forces of production under a regime of general mobilization.

The development of production relations seriously lagged behind the development of the forces of production as a result of these extreme measures and conditions, and not only as a result of the inertia so characteristic of production relations in general.

Under the pressure and the disguise of these and other adverse conditions the functions of the dictatorship of the proletariat and the development of proletarian democracy were significantly hampered. The dictatorship of the proletariat was then applied from top to bottom, mostly as a result of the activity and authority of the leading organs of the Bolshevik party, and the development of proletarian democracy in society was basically reduced to endorsing the government and party decisions produced at the top.

The strictly top-down character of the management of economic and social life seriously weakened the class control from below of the activity of the apparatus and the intellectual elite. This lack of control from below led to the social alienation and petty-bourgeoisie decomposition of the apparatus. As a result, the petty-bourgeois interests and actions of the managers and intellectual elites began to diverge from the class interests of the proletariat.

The situation worsened from the class-political point of view due to the replacement of managerial cadre as the result of personnel losses during the war. The replacements came mostly from demobilized army cadre and specialists of war industry who traditionally, in virtue of the organizational specifics of their previous activity, resisted the development of proletarian democracy in production and social relations, and even most probably did not understand the danger to the dictatorship of the proletariat and socialism concealed in their actions.

The class and social-economic phenomena described above represented a substantial danger for the dictatorship of the proletariat, but while Stalin was alive the proletarian forces within the party managed to maintain the political situation under control in the party and in society. How can this be explained?

The most honest and deepest trust of the Soviet people towards the Bolshevik party and the proletarian power was engendered by real life and was tested to death during the years of the war. It was specifically the monolithic class unity of the Bolshevik party and the working class in alliance with the laboring masses (non-party members) of the Soviet Union that was one of the most determining factors that made possible the successful and rapid development of practical life of the socialist society. Therefore it is disturbing and laughable when today bourgeois ideologists claim that the Bolsheviks and their leadership allegedly usurped power and remained in power with the help of mass violence and terror. Such ignorant garbage and irreverent slanders would be denied by even the most vicious enemy of the Bolsheviks and the dictatorship of the proletariat.

When we say Lenin we mean the party. By analogy, the name of Stalin incorporated the dictatorship of the proletariat in the Soviet Union during the so-called Stalinist period. This was related not only to Stalin’s greatest contributions to the Bolshevik party and the working class. This phenomenon also has a social-class explanation. The victory of the proletarian revolution and the tremendous success of socialism during the dictatorship of the proletariat under the leadership of the Bolshevik party created a strong morale among the masses and their hopes for a bright future. The dreams of a better life turned into reality in a planned and rapid fashion. The petty-bourgeois consciousness, first of all of the peasants and the intellectuals, was used to link the good and the bad in their lives, victory or defeat, with the name of a given leader and not with the politics of the leading class; in the concrete historical case we are dealing with the dictatorship of the proletariat led by the Bolshevik party. This way it was easier for the petty-bourgeois consciousness to understand, and the successes of the country were indeed legendary. Therefore while Stalin was alive, through such manifestations, the influence of the proletarian nucleus in the party was further strengthened by the authority of the party attained during the epoch of the dictatorship of the proletariat. The Marxist-Leninist line of the party did not suffer changes and the party formally displayed class unity among its members; this all corresponded to the post-war period while comrade Stalin was still alive.

After the death of comrade Stalin the petty-bourgeois forces within the party (the Soviet revisionists, the so-called "Khrushchevites") worked hard to seize the key party positions, since to achieve control in the party structures gave them the chance to take over political power and ideological control. However, in order to change the politics of the CPSU towards the opposite class direction, i.e. to bring it in correspondence with the real power, it was necessary to discredit the Stalinist dictatorship of the proletariat and to isolate it from the Leninist party of the Bolsheviks, even though the Stalinist dictatorship of the proletariat solidly followed the Leninist party of the Bolsheviks.

It was because of this that the 20th Congress of the CPSU had to replace the class dictatorship of the proletariat and the vanguard role of the Bolshevik party with the "cult of personality of Stalin", it had to replace the class struggle with the unilateral dictate of the leader and to slander his name after his death. This completely contradicts Marxism-Leninism as a science of classes and class struggle and the whole world practice of class struggle, but it is easily comprehended by primitive petty-bourgeois consciousness.

The 20th Congress of the CPSU should be considered as the date that formally marks the defeat of the dictatorship of the proletariat in the USSR and the execution of a counter-revolutionary coup.

The counterrevolution did not hesitate to resort to slanders, intrigues, terror and threats to use the armed forces directly in order to attain power.

It is true that not all the party leaders agreed with the concrete actions of the class enemy. In particular Malenkov, Kaganovitch, Molotov, Shepilov and other party members tried to remove Khrushchev after a while. But their actions were not reflected in the class struggle and were more like a struggle for power among the high party echelons, as if their actions had nothing to do with the class struggle and the class enemy and were a result of private organizational inner-party discussions. It is due to this that their "struggle" did not become an example of revolutionary class struggle. Khrushchev and his supporters declared this group "anti-party" and expelled them from the party leadership in their entirety.

Power in the territory of the Soviet Union fell completely into the hands of the new class forces forged in the petty-bourgeois medium who defeated the dictatorship of the proletariat in the class struggle.

These were communists only in words, but capitalists in practice. The new party leadership was obliged, above all, to transform the party documents according to the new essence of power and the real situation in society. Fundamental class concepts such as the "dictatorship of the proletariat", "class struggle", the "political vanguard of the working class" and other concepts which make up the basics of the Marxist-Leninist teachings simply disappeared. At the same time theses about the "complete and final victory of socialism in the USSR" were introduced, which pointed without proof to the impossibility of restoring capitalism and excluded the possibility of class struggle, about the "party of the whole people", etc. In other words, Marxism-Leninism was subject to open and conscientious petty-bourgeois revision. However, the external attributes of the CPSU remained untouched; the party preserved its communist name; the state was still called socialist and the party propaganda still called for loyalty to Marxism-Leninism. This was also consistent with the psychology of the rank-and-file Soviet petty-bourgeois of that time. The revision of Marxism-Leninism also had another hidden aspect: the revisionists concealed their true (bourgeois) selves using Lenin.

Lenin was transformed by them into an icon for mass oration, which was harmless for the new power, and Marxism-Leninism was transformed into a petty-bourgeois pseudo-science under the excuse of "creative development" and ceased to inspire revolutionary action among the working class and the communists.

The representatives of the petty-bourgeois forces, who seized power and destroyed the dictatorship of the proletariat, took over all the socialized means of production; therefore de facto they became corporate owners, i.e. capitalists. From this point on we are dealing here with a bourgeois state and the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.

Now the corporate capitalist, by virtue of the main economic law of capitalism, the law of maximum profit, should distribute the means of production accordingly. These class aspirations force changes in the economic basis at all levels with respect to ownership of the means of productions and the corresponding state policies.

A fundamental example of such transformation in the basis is the decision to liquidate the machine-tractor stations (MTS). The liquidation of the MTS represents the liquidation of social property of the means of production in the countryside, the return to group property of the machine stations and their inclusion in the system of commodity-money relations. That is a fundamental turning point in the essence of the economic relations between industry and the countryside towards capitalist relations.

The dictatorship of the proletariat or the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie determines the existence of socialism or capitalism; there is no intermediate step between them.

OneBrickOneVoice
4th March 2007, 18:02
Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 05:22 am



But in that process it took every thing to undermine any workers intiatives in other countries.

Yeah like the International Brigades and all the aid to Communist Parties in Eastern Europe as well as China.


First they opposed the strategy of United front to fight Fascism. Then after Hitler&#39;s rise to power they Subordinated the CP&#39;s to a coalition with Liberal and bourgeoisie greatly compromising the workers rights

Way to completly contradict yourself. And yeah they did have a united front against fascism. In case you didn&#39;t notice the International Brigades were fighting along side the Republic, POUM, and the CNT-FAI. And how did they subordinate the CPs? They encouraged the CPs to form a coalition with bourgioesie factions just to kick out the fascists. What&#39;s wrong with that? It worked in China extremely well because it was also the time the CCP exploded in membership.


Third International after Lenin (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1928-3rd/index.htm)

Why do you keep posting this irrelevent. It would be like if I posted Trotskyism or Leninism after every post where it is shown that Trotsky says things like "Leninism will self-distruct" and that "Lenin is arrogant".


Sorry that was done by Gorbachev not Khrushchev.

by both.

OneBrickOneVoice
4th March 2007, 18:08
It was happening under the Tsarist regime.

Um no it wasn&#39;t. That&#39;s why it was one of the most backward countries in the world.


Its ultra leftism, on stalin&#39;s behalf, because he said not to work with the socialist

social democratic you mean


and trade union organisations in an attempt to stop the Nazi rise to power. Working together as a class, the workers could have defeated the Nazi&#39;s.

becuase most of the trade unions were aligned with social democratic politics. They disagreed fundamentally.

Anyhow, the Nazis were voted in, there was little they could do. And when did Stalin exactly say this?

OneBrickOneVoice
4th March 2007, 18:11
Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 08:25 pm
What exactly do you think "socialism in one country" is? It was attempting to build socialism without waiting for a western internationalist revolution.
Exactly. That was what the permanent revolution truly advocated: keeping the workers exploited until every other revolution caught up.

Vargha Poralli
5th March 2007, 06:32
Originally posted by LeftyHenry+--> (LeftyHenry)eah like the International Brigades[/b]

That is not relevant. There would have been no need for an International brigade if Stalin&#39;s foreign policy had taken the right direction in 30&#39;s.


Originally posted by LeftyHenry+--> (LeftyHenry)and all the aid to Communist Parties in Eastern Europe as well as China.[/b]

Communist parties of eastern Europe were soem extension of Stalin&#39;s bureaucracy they are not Independent.

And don&#39;t embarass yourself again and again by defneding cominten&#39;s policy on China. Mao himself admits them as mistakes.


Originally posted by LeftyHenry
Why do you keep posting this irrelevent. It would be like if I posted Trotskyism or Leninism after every post where it is shown that Trotsky says things like "Leninism will self-distruct" and that "Lenin is arrogant"

That is relevant because it clears shows the way comintern worked when Lenin was alive and how it deviated from Communism under Stalin.


[email protected]
(Industrialisation)Um no it wasn&#39;t(happening in Tsar&#39;s Russia). That&#39;s why it was one of the most backward countries in the world.

Again I ask you from where did the workers of Petrograd soviet came from ? Did they fall from the Sky ?


LeftyHenry
Anyhow, the Nazis were voted in, there was little they could do. And when did Stalin exactly say this?

Again don&#39;t embarass yourself.
Just read the chronology of Events in this page. (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1930-ger/index.htm) You don&#39;t have top read all the essays given there just read the chronology of events.

OneBrickOneVoice
5th March 2007, 21:44
That is not relevant. There would have been no need for an International brigade if Stalin&#39;s foreign policy had taken the right direction in 30&#39;s.

Don&#39;t embarress yourself, The Spanish Civil War started in the 30s. Stalin was not some magician, he made mistakes, but its fucking upsurd to just blame him for Franco and Hitler and Mussolini and dissmiss the actions of the workers and peasants who made up the International Brigades. You do this why? Because you are a liberal and a renegade g.ram, and are going no where. You can critiscize Marxism-Leninism(-Maoism) all you want (and there are plenty of critiscisms to be made of course) without any use of historical materialism, and I can continue to defend actions taken, however the fact remains that Trotskyism has no history. Why? Because the workers consistantly have chosen against it because it is a renegade ideology.


Communist parties of eastern Europe were soem extension of Stalin&#39;s bureaucracy they are not Independent.

yeah that explains the Sino-Soviet, Sino-Albanian, and Sino-Czechoslovakian splits and conflicts
:rolleyes:

way to dodge the subject


And don&#39;t embarass yourself again and again by defneding cominten&#39;s policy on China. Mao himself admits them as mistakes.

of course there were mistakes maken, however the point is that the cominform would in the end be pivotal in the Communist seizure of power in China because of the aid it would supply. As for the New Democratic stage, it was working well for CCP until Chaing Kai-Shek took control of the KMT. The party had grown in a major way since its inception and was the largest CP in the world, however it made the mistake of not relying on the overwhelming population, the rural proletarian masses. Mao realized this after trying to organize in the early 20s and left to organize in the countryside. This strategy turned out to be right for China as well as other predominantly unindustrialized countries similiar to China.


That is relevant because it clears shows the way comintern worked when Lenin was alive and how it deviated from Communism under Stalin.

it was written by fucking trotsky lol&#33; Is that serious? Besides, it was prescisly because the material conditions had changed that the comintern was dissolved and the cominform was formed.


Again I ask you from where did the workers of Petrograd soviet came from ? Did they fall from the Sky ?

Russia was semi-industrialized however compared to other capitalist powers it was similiar to a country locked in the stone ages making minimal progress.

Herman
5th March 2007, 22:48
Ugh... now it&#39;s becoming another &#39;Stalin was actually a facist dictator&#39; thread....

Vargha Poralli
6th March 2007, 04:53
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 04:18 am
Ugh... now it&#39;s becoming another &#39;Stalin was actually a facist dictator&#39; thread....
Really ?


Don&#39;t embarress yourself, The Spanish Civil War started in the 30s. Stalin was not some magician, he made mistakes, but its fucking upsurd to just blame him for Franco and Hitler and Mussolini and dissmiss the actions of the workers and peasants who made up the International Brigades. You do this why? Because you are a liberal and a renegade g.ram, and are going no where. You can critiscize Marxism-Leninism(-Maoism) all you want (and there are plenty of critiscisms to be made of course) without any use of historical materialism, and I can continue to defend actions taken, however the fact remains that Trotskyism has no history. Why? Because the workers consistantly have chosen against it because it is a renegade ideology.


I meant backstabbing the Spanish proleatriat by purging of POUM and Militanty anarchists. And the help to republican govt was not on the intrests of workers it is in the intrest of Stalin.



yeah that explains the Sino-Soviet, Sino-Albanian, and Sino-Czechoslovakian splits and conflicts
rolleyes.gif

way to dodge the subject

Sino-Soviet split was just a battle of egos Mao and Khrushchev. It has nothing principle in it.I don&#39;t consider that none of the european regimes to be Communist at all.


of course there were mistakes maken, however the point is that the cominform would in the end be pivotal in the Communist seizure of power in China because of the aid it would supply. As for the New Democratic stage, it was working well for CCP until Chaing Kai-Shek took control of the KMT. The party had grown in a major way since its inception and was the largest CP in the world, however it made the mistake of not relying on the overwhelming population, the rural proletarian masses. Mao realized this after trying to organize in the early 20s and left to organize in the countryside. This strategy turned out to be right for China as well as other predominantly unindustrialized countries similiar to China.

China too was never a workers state. According to me the only workers state is USSR and that too IMO is degenerated from 1927.


it was written by fucking trotsky lol&#33; Is that serious? Besides, it was prescisly because the material conditions had changed that the comintern was dissolved and the cominform was formed.

Ok you post some thing that is written only by Stalin and worshippers of Stalin so i post works that provide the opposing view. The difference between me and you is that I read the shit source you have provided and refute and you reject everything outright because it is not authorised by Stalin school of falsification


Russia was semi-industrialized however compared to other capitalist powers it was similiar to a country locked in the stone ages making minimal progress.

My point is full scale Industrialisation would have been accomplished in USSR even under Tsar. There is no way out for anybody who got the power there. So Industrialisation was not an accomplishment of Stalin.

Wanted Man
6th March 2007, 11:33
Originally posted by g.ram+March 06, 2007 05:53 am--> (g.ram @ March 06, 2007 05:53 am) I meant backstabbing the Spanish proleatriat by purging of POUM and Militanty anarchists. And the help to republican govt was not on the intrests of workers it is in the intrest of Stalin. [/b]
Aw jeez, not this shit again. I do not know whether POUM&#39;s intentions were honourable(CNT-FAI&#39;s definitely were, but they also participated in the Republican government), but acting to overthrow the one and only entity that has the weapons necessary to fight the fascist army is the dumbest strategy one could have thought of.


Originally posted by g.ram+--> (g.ram)Sino-Soviet split was just a battle of egos Mao and Khrushchev. It has nothing principle in it.[/b]
Really? So it has no class character or anything in it? Strange, even left communists would at least assert that it was a conflict between the "bourgeoisie" of two "state capitalist" countries, thus giving it a certain class character. But you, on the other hand, only attribute it to the egos of two individuals. That&#39;s nonsense, communists don&#39;t uphold the "great men" view of history.


[email protected]
Ok you post some thing that is written only by Stalin and worshippers of Stalin so i post works that provide the opposing view. The difference between me and you is that I read the shit source you have provided and refute and you reject everything outright because it is not authorised by Stalin school of falsification
Not sure where this came from, as I didn&#39;t really see any in-depth sources or refutations to them in this discussion, I&#39;ll read the whole thread shortly. Anyway, if you think the other guy is arguing in bad faith and won&#39;t even listen to you, then why carry through the discussion at all? If you really feel that way, just go do something else.


g.ram
My point is full scale Industrialisation would have been accomplished in USSR even under Tsar. There is no way out for anybody who got the power there. So Industrialisation was not an accomplishment of Stalin.
So you say. Of course the economy of the Tzarist régime wasn&#39;t completely static, but to say that the massive industrialization that happened in the Stalin era was a completely natural consequence is wrong on many levels. But I do agree that it&#39;s not particularly an accomplishment of the individual Stalin. Instead, it was an accomplishment of the Soviet state that was being built up by its workers as a whole.

OneBrickOneVoice
7th March 2007, 03:03
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 04:53 am




I meant backstabbing the Spanish proleatriat by purging of POUM and Militanty anarchists. And the help to republican govt was not on the intrests of workers it is in the intrest of Stalin.

this has been dealt with a shitload of times before. You really can&#39;t be serious. This is one thing that can&#39;t just blame Stalin for. First, the PCE was a deviant party, second, the fire was going three ways all were attacking itself. In fact Anarchists had shot down a Soviet plane at one time early on (supposedly they mistook it for luftwaffe) yet the IB didn&#39;t do anything.


Sino-Soviet split was just a battle of egos Mao and Khrushchev. It has nothing principle in it.I don&#39;t consider that none of the european regimes to be Communist at all.

Neither do I. I consider them socialist. And that is a shallow and upsurdly unmaterialistic analysis you have made. Even if you were right, it proves that the parties weren&#39;t just branches of the kremlin to have made such splits.


China too was never a workers state. According to me the only workers state is USSR and that too IMO is degenerated from 1927.

I know you&#39;re opinion, and I disagree.


Ok you post some thing that is written only by Stalin and worshippers of Stalin so i post works that provide the opposing view. The difference between me and you is that I read the shit source you have provided and refute and you reject everything outright because it is not authorised by Stalin school of falsification

hi g.ram

did you miss the post where I refuted your article point by point? Of course I am reading it. You on the otherhand, just keep changing subjects indicating that if anyone is not reading the articles it would be you comrade.


My point is full scale Industrialisation would have been accomplished in USSR even under Tsar. There is no way out for anybody who got the power there. So Industrialisation was not an accomplishment of Stalin.

No it wouldn&#39;t because it was 100 years behind every other european country. That&#39;s not industrialization. What Stalin did was take those 100 years of lag, and make it up in 10.

Rawthentic
7th March 2007, 03:13
No it wouldn&#39;t because it was 100 years behind every other european country. That&#39;s not industrialization. What Stalin did was take those 100 years of lag, and make it up in 10.

Here&#39;s a fundamental problem in human history; human progress is made at all costs, whether it be human. Atrocities are committed in the name of "human progress". Take Columbus and how he justified the genocide of natives, as well as several other historians have, "in the name of the progress of human civilization." Stalin may have led the country in making decreasing the "lag" to 10 years, but it was at the expense of the workers, who actually had to do the working. They didn&#39;t have the luxury of a galant office or great feasts.

Vargha Poralli
7th March 2007, 10:23
I do not know whether POUM&#39;s intentions were honourable(CNT-FAI&#39;s definitely were, but they also participated in the Republican government), but acting to overthrow the one and only entity that has the weapons necessary to fight the fascist army is the dumbest strategy one could have thought of.

Yes you do not know POUM&#39;s intentions where honourable or not but the spanish communists did carried out repression. It is funny that you criticise CNT-FAI leadership for joining reoublican government while Comintern under your leader&#39;s guidance worked with British Imperialists. <_<


Really? So it has no class character or anything in it? Strange, even left communists would at least assert that it was a conflict between the "bourgeoisie" of two "state capitalist" countries, thus giving it a certain class character. But you, on the other hand, only attribute it to the egos of two individuals. That&#39;s nonsense, communists don&#39;t uphold the "great men" view of history.

I don&#39;t know what left communists have analysed and don&#39;t care about it. But certainly the Sino-Soviet split has nothing to do with principle or class character of both States. Both of them are culpable of betraying the international proletariat.


Not sure where this came from, as I didn&#39;t really see any in-depth sources or refutations to them in this discussion, I&#39;ll read the whole thread shortly. Anyway, if you think the other guy is arguing in bad faith and won&#39;t even listen to you, then why carry through the discussion at all? If you really feel that way, just go do something else.

Nice idea thank you. I am done with arguing with you guys.


No it wouldn&#39;t because it was 100 years behind every other european country. That&#39;s not industrialization. What Stalin did was take those 100 years of lag, and make it up in 10.

My point that is not reason for my criticism of the bureaucracy it is the toll it took for holding back to power in the name of Industrialisation.