The Great American Novel?

[SittingBull47]

Is it really Moby Dick? The Great Gatsby? Or is it something more abstract like Thoreau's Walden?

Anybody who knows even a little bit more than the average person on literature knows that Moby Dick and Gatsby help make up the bible of american literature. No one can deny their significance or their magnificance. However, I personally believe that Kerouac's "On The Road", In my opinion, is the quinessential great american novel. Parts of it express the confusion and isolation that is the backbone of our literary history (in some instances Kerouac offers a throw-back to the lost generation, arguably the greatest literary generation of our history to date). It possess all of the qualities that make a novel timeless (youth, identity, human relationships, you get the point) and some that make it unique in it's own right.

What are your thoughts on such works like Moby Dick and Gatsby? Is there a piece that is more complete than both novels, but is underrated? I'm curious to hear some opinions, so let's do this.

[Mujer Libre]

I really don't like the idea of "great novels" and literary canon. It privileges certain types of art, or should that be Art, over others- both in terms of form and content. Also, the idea of a great American novel grates even more becuse it implies that there is some kind of 'Americanness' reflected in the novel that makes it objectively great.Clearly- there isn't an objective Americanness, nor is their objective greatness, so I wouldn't attempt to name a novel. But historically, "great literature" has been the domain of dead white men- i.e. the powerful- so I try to avoid the term and all the baggage it contains.

Besides- I HATE Gatsby.

[SittingBull47]

Wow. you really missed the fucking boat on this one. For once, just drop the leftist facade and think in terms of LITERATURE. I'm thinking in terms of cultural relevance and importance only.

Perhaps it is my fault. I assumed I wouldn't need to explain the term "American Literature" and what makes something american (just because something is american doesn't make it great. that's a given). I assumed that if somebody were going to post, they would have an idea of the genre and its specifics.

[Mujer Libre]

Leftist facade? rofl

I was applying an analysis to the idea that there is a literary canon or "great" literature... Is that not allowed now? :rolleyes: Just so you know- I do literary studies at university (and critiquing the concept of canon is something that makes up a large part of the subject area)- so I am familiar with the subject matter- I just don't agree with you. And that's the problem, isn't it? You can't handle people disagreeing with you.

Also, I didn't say that you said Americanness= greatness...

[Angry Young Man]

W/e it is, it's not "For Whom the Bell Tolls". The language is so unfeeling. What's more, all Hemingway had to do with the Spanish Civil War was report. Even though I haven't read it yet, I can tell England's own "Homage to Catalonia" is better, but then I absorb everything I read by Orwell.

But talking of this "Greatness", why do the English put so much emphasis on Shakespeare? Why is it ok to make a fact of an entirely subjective opinion that he is the greatest ever playwright? I studied Much Ado in eng lit and it was too bloody cheerful. I had to write on the only interesting aspect.
And Ford's "Tis a Pity She's a Whore" is much better. Considering it was written in 1634, it was pretty progressive for its time. I also like it because the rest of the class, a bunch of philistines, fail to acknowledge that there is more than one theme. They deem it 'disturbing' just because the only theme they notice is incest.

[Hate Is Art]

Why do the English put so much emphasis on Shakespeare?

Watch it boyo, Shakespeare is an intensely brilliant playwright. The fact that we are still studying his plays in because their major thematic concerns are still incredibly relevant to us today and the lyrical content of some of his lines are amazing.

Hemingway is also an excellent novelist, To Have And Have Not is brilliant, the unfeelingness of his work is just his style, like Pinter's use of the pause or Beckett's absurdity.

[FOREVER LEFT]

I read Gatsby in high school and didn't like it much. Regarding the great American novel--- that is up to what you want the novel to be about. Anybody heard of A Flag For Sunrise by Robert Stone---- that is a novel about revolution. I think that the great American novel is yet to written. I think the closest that has come to it is Huck Finn. Finn is limited by the paucity of major female characters.

[Angry Young Man]

How can a writer who expressly makes his prose unfeeling be considered a good novelist?

I started to read "For Whom..." just after I finished the bell jar by Sylvia Plath. To go from somebody who was primarily a poet to somebody who was primarily a journalist was a huge leap down in terms of emotion evoked in the prose.

Sylvia Plath really is the bee&#39;s bollocks&#33; I </3 her&#33;

[Hate Is Art]

Yeah if you&#39;re a nausey little 16 girl old. She&#39;s so tragic.

[JazzRemington]

The Great American novel is Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. End of discussion.

[Angry Young Man]

GRRRR I had F&L but lent it a friend and never got it back&#33; :angry:

[RASHskins]

Great Gatsby was ok.

[404]

Coincidently, I never completely read Gatsby or Moby due to my lack of interest or disregard, I guess, I did however attempt to read the both of them. Irk…Irk…Irk&#33;

Great American novels? For some peculiar reason Dalton Trumbo comes to mind when I think of a great American author but like I always say, my opinion may change tomorrow. Trumbo was blacklisted you know and joined the Communist Party in 1943 and after the war supported a strike organized by the Conference of Studio Unions. Now that is entertainingly intelligent in my opinion&#33;

“Johnny Got His Gun” was never a forbidden read, regardless to the popular belief, yet Trumbo himself was not in fact unhappy after the book went out of print, on account of its possible use in obscuring the war effort, Ingenious&#33; Contingency with a twist&#33;

Hemingway was a lush, yet this is not to imply that it made him a bad writer…nevertheless, I detest his lack of originality&#33;

Jazz, Hunter Thompson was a brilliant writer period, too bad he did himself in&#33;

[YSR]

Steinbeck&#39;s Grapes of Wrath is the best American novel I&#39;ve ever read.

That being said, I think I agree with Mujer Libre&#39;s above comments about art.

[Pawn Power]

Gatsby is crap. Boring and slow...

Clearly a single novel cannot represent the entire US literature canon, if such a thing exists.

As far as good American novels go I would put forth The Jungle- very well written and encompases some very important points of American cultrue and histroy.

If you want something a bit more modern, perhaps Slaughterhuse-Five.

Mark Twain definatly needs to be mentioned when talking about US liturater as well.

[Pawn Power]

Originally posted by Mujer [email protected] 02, 2007 01:53 am
I really don&#39;t like the idea of "great novels" and literary canon. It privileges certain types of art, or should that be Art, over others- both in terms of form and content.
I also do not like the idea of sole representations of a form of art. However, certainly there are novels that are "good" and those that are simply "crap"?



Also, the idea of a great American novel grates even more becuse it implies that there is some kind of &#39;Americanness&#39; reflected in the novel that makes it objectively great.Clearly- there isn&#39;t an objective Americanness, nor is their objective greatness, so I wouldn&#39;t attempt to name a novel.
I tend to agree.
Though, some would argue that American liturature has certain defining aspects, not that they are any "better" then another form. And then within this realm of American liturate various novels emerge better written and more characteristic of the genre.



But historically, "great literature" has been the domain of dead white men- i.e. the powerful- so I try to avoid the term and all the baggage it contains.
Indeed. Though today, Toni Morrison is probably considered by most to be a part of the American canon.

[luxemburg89]

&#39;For whom the bell tolls&#39; unfeeling??? so what if he reported, i believe Hemingway is a wonderful author, he clearly empathised with those who fought. Its stupid to believe that to aid a cause one has to fight, while that may be necessary sometimes, in others it is better to stand off; and other times people are scared to fight - i would be, not that i wouldn&#39;t fight, just that i&#39;d be scared. For example casting aside the protagonist, Pablo is a symbol, not of the Spanish, not even of a leftist, but of a human being. He, Roberto Jordan, Pilar, Maria, all go through the emtions that humans feel in a lifetime, in three days. That book was the greatest inspiration for me to live, and act on my beliefs, more so than anything else in my life. You can say you dislike it, but don&#39;t question the love and feeling that went into that book, and that people can feel from it.

To Kill a Mockingbird is also a beautiful book. It may not be considered socialist literature but it does it does contain great ideas on how to ideologically defeat racism, and, to an extent, fascism. Talking of literature as a whole i would also say Arthur Miller&#39;s &#39;The Crucible&#39; even more so than death of a Salesman.

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by Pawn Power+March 06, 2007 03:53 pm--> (Pawn Power @ March 06, 2007 03:53 pm)
Mujer [email protected] 02, 2007 01:53 am
I really don&#39;t like the idea of "great novels" and literary canon. It privileges certain types of art, or should that be Art, over others- both in terms of form and content.
I also do not like the idea of sole representations of a form of art. However, certainly there are novels that are "good" and those that are simply "crap"?



Also, the idea of a great American novel grates even more becuse it implies that there is some kind of &#39;Americanness&#39; reflected in the novel that makes it objectively great.Clearly- there isn&#39;t an objective Americanness, nor is their objective greatness, so I wouldn&#39;t attempt to name a novel.
I tend to agree.
Though, some would argue that American liturature has certain defining aspects, not that they are any "better" then another form. And then within this realm of American liturate various novels emerge better written and more characteristic of the genre.



But historically, "great literature" has been the domain of dead white men- i.e. the powerful- so I try to avoid the term and all the baggage it contains.
Indeed. Though today, Toni Morrison is probably considered by most to be a part of the American canon. [/b]
I basically agree with what you said just there too- I was just being extra confrontational because I wanted to challenge the OP.

Also, sure there are &#39;good&#39; and &#39;shit&#39; novels but that&#39;s largely subjective and doesn&#39;t necessarily mean that we can make lists of "great" novels anyway.