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Kez
3rd June 2002, 20:17
Please Read this ALL before you comment:
**********************************

This is a promise, it will give you a tool to discuss with anarchist and convice
them of the uselessness of their ideology. I have been using different sources
but the most important are Engles collected works. If you don’t understand
something tell me (few technical names, Spanish politicians).

I hope you like it,

First of all a brief background:

In 1868 Spain was in a deep crisis. There was a revolutionary ferment. The
monarchy split and there were two factions fighting, in fact there was a civil
war. Unrest in the population was growing .A coup d’etat was organised by the
progrssive forces in the Army. The abdication of the Queen led to a even bigger
inestability. A new King was elected but he couldn’t solve any of the problems.

After two years the king, who was an Italian Prince (Amadeo), abdicated and a
Republic was declared. The Government of the Republic was put in power by
another coup. The new Governemnt abolished slavery in the colonies, stopped the
war in Africa that Spain was holding and started a land reform in benefit of the
poor peasants of Southern Spain. But the revolts continued in others areas…
cantonalist movements developed and the central govt. was under pressure. Under
these conditions the reaction organised another coup and the monarchy was put
back in power, and a regime with a democratic face was ruling the country. The
living conditions of milions of workers and peasants remained the same.

Engels and The First International in Spain. 1873.

He wrote:

As we know, at the time the split in the International occurred the odds were in
favour of the members of the secret Alliance in Spain; the great majority of
Spanish workers followed their lead. When the Republic was proclaimed in
February 1873, the Spanish members of the Alliance found themselves in a
quandary. Spain is such a backward country industrially that there can be no
question there of immediate complete emancipation of the working class. Spain
will first have to pass through various preliminary stages of development and
remove quite a number of obstacles from its path.

The Republic offered a chance of going through these stages in the shortest
possible time and quickly surmounting the obstacles. But this chance could be
taken only if the Spanish working class played an active political role. The
labour masses felt this; they strove everywhere to participate in events, to
take advantage of the opportunity for action, instead of leaving the propertied
classes, as hitherto, a clear field for action and intrigues. The government
announced that elections were to be held to the Constituent Cortes (Spanish word
for Parliament). [May 10, 1873] What was the attitude of the International to
be? The leaders of the Bakuninists were in a predicament. Continued political
inaction became more ridiculous and impossible with every passing day; the
workers wanted "to see things done". The members of the Alliance on the other
hand had been preaching for years that no part should be taken in a revolution
that did not have as its aim the immediate and complete emancipation of the
working class, that political action of any kind implied recognition of the
State, which was the root of all evil, and that therefore participation in any
form of elections was a crime worthy of death. How they got out of this fix is
recounted in the already mentioned Madrid report:
"The same people who rejected the Hague resolution on the political attitude of
the working class and who trampled under foot the Rules of the [International
Working Men's] Association, thus bringing division, conflict and confusion into
the Spanish Section of the International; the same people who had the effrontery
to depict us to the workers as ambitious place-hunters, who, under the pretext
of establishing the rule of the working class, sought to establish their own
rule; the same people who call themselves autonomists, anarchist
revolutionaries, etc., have on this occasion flung themselves into politics,
bourgeois politics of the worst kind. They have worked, not to give political
power to the working class -- on the contrary this idea is repugnant to them --
but to help to power a bourgeois faction of adventurers, ambitious men and
place-hunters who call themselves Intransigent (irreconcilable) Republicans.

"Already on the eve of the general election to the Constituent Cortes the
workers of Barcelona, Alcoy and other towns wanted to know what political line
they should adopt in the parliamentary struggle and other campaigns. Two big
meetings were therefore held, one in Barcelona, the other in Alcoy; at both
meetings the Alliance members went out of their way to prevent any decision
being reached as to what political line was to be taken by the International"
(note bene: by their own International). "It was therefore decided that the
International, as an association, should not engage in an, political activity
whatever, but that its members, as individuals, could act on their own as the,
thought fit and join the part, they chose, in accordance with their famous
doctrine of autonomy! And what was the result of the application of this absurd
doctrine? That most of the members of the International, including the
anarchists, took part in the elections with no programme, no banner, and no
candidates, thereby helping to bring about the election of almost exclusively
bourgeois republicans. Only two or three workers got into the Chamber, and they
represent absolutely nothing, their voice has not once been raised in defence of
the interests of our class, and they cheerfully voted for all the reactionary
motions tabled by the majority."

That is what Bakuninist "abstention from politics" leads to. At quiet times,
when the proletariat knows beforehand that at best it can get only a few
representatives to parliament and have no chance whatever of winning a
parliamentary majority, the workers may sometimes be made to believe that it is
a great revolutionary action to sit out the elections at home, and in general,
not to attack the State in which they live and which oppresses them, but to
attack the State as such which exists nowhere and which accordingly cannot
defend itself. This is a splendid way of behaving in a revolutionary manner,
especially for people who lose heart easily; and the extent to which the leaders
of the Spanish Alliance belong to this category of people is shown in some
detail in the aforementioned publication.

As soon as events push the proletariat into the fore, however, abstention
becomes a palpable absurdity and the active intervention of the working class an
inevitable necessity. And this is what happened in Spain. The abdication of
Amadeo ousted the radical monarchists from power and deprived them of the
possibility of recovering it in the near future; the Alfonsists (the main
monarchic faction) the stood still less chance at the time; as for the Carlists
(note the other monarchic faction), they, as usual, preferred civil war to an
election campaign. All these parties, according to the Spanish custom,
abstained. Only the federalist Republicans, split into two wings, and the bulk
of the workers took part in the elections. Given the enormous attraction which
the name of the International still enjoyed at that time among the Spanish
workers and given the excellent organisation of the Spanish Section which, at
least for practical purposes, still existed at the time, it was certain that any
candidate nominated and supported by the International would be brilliantly
successful in the industrial districts of Catalonia, in Valencia, in the
Andalusian towns and so on, and that a minority would be elected to the Cortes
large enough to decide the issue whenever it came to a vote between the two
wings of the Republicans. The workers were aware of this; they felt that the
time had come to bring their still powerful organisation into play. But the
honourable leaders of the Bakuninist school had been preaching the gospel of
unqualified abstention too long to be able suddenly to reverse their line; and
so they invented that deplorable way out -- that of having the International
abstain as a body, but allowing its members as individuals to vote as they
liked. The result of this declaration of political bankruptcy was that the
workers, as always in such cases, voted for those who made the most radical
speeches, that is, for the Intransigents, and considering themselves therefore
more or less responsible for subsequent steps taken by their deputies, became
involved in them.

II

The members of the Alliance could not possibly persist in the ridiculous
position into which their cunning electoral policy had landed them; it would
have meant the end of their control over the International in Spain. They had to
act, if only for the sake of appearances. Salvation for them lay in a general
STRIKE.

In the Bakuninist programme a general STRIKE is the lever employed by which the
social revolution is started. One fine morning all the workers in all the
industries of a country, or even of the whole world, stop work, thus forcing the
propertied classes either humbly to submit within four weeks at the most, or to
attack the workers, who would then have the right to defend themselves and use
this opportunity to pull down the entire old society. The idea is far from new;
this horse was since 1848 hard ridden by French, and later Belgian socialists;
it is originally, however, an English breed. During the rapid and vigorous
growth of Chartism among the English workers following the crisis of 1837, the
"holy month", a strike on a national scale was advocated as early as 1839 (see
Engels, The Condition of the Working-Class in England, Second Edition [1892], p.
234) and this had such a strong appeal that in July 1842 the industrial workers
in northern England tried to put it into practice. -- Great importance was also
attached to the general STRIKE at the Geneva Congress of the Alliance held on
September 1, 1873, although it was universally admitted that this required a
well-formed organisation of the working class and plentiful funds. And there's
the rub. On the one hand the governments, especially if encouraged by political
abstention, will never allow the organisation or the funds of the workers to
reach such a level; on the other hand, political events and oppressive acts by
the ruling classes will lead to the liberation of the workers long before the
proletariat is able to set up such an ideal organisation and this colossal
reserve fund. But if it had them, there would be no need to use the roundabout
way of a general STRIKE to achieve its goal. (…)


This is the tipical anarchist approach to all matters. The text has got 12 pages
more (you can read it at www.marxists.org , Engles works 1873). This is just an
example. But the luck of ideological cohesion destroyed the First International.
Marx knew that but in 1860’s and 70’s the main priority was to put the basis for
an international working class movement. The defeats of the First International
gave the lesson to build the second. An international of mass socialist
parties, but the betray of the leaders force the Bolsheviks to create the third.
Stalin dissolved the third International in 1943. A bit earlier Trotsky was
trying to crate a new international movement based in the experience of the
three previous attempts. But he was assassinated. And now this task is on our
shoulders. So comrade is important to start this essential struggle.

any opinions?

Yours In the only Struggle
Comrade Kamo

Menshevik
3rd June 2002, 23:48
I agree. Are you trying to show the failures of anarchists or trying to show how we must continue the work left off by the international?

Kez
4th June 2002, 14:30
its good to see 1 person can read more than a paragraph then become uninterested

It is intended to show how the left is what is it, and the anarchists are not part of the left but part of their own.

How can we unite if we know they will fight us later?

Menshevik
4th June 2002, 15:21
Well, it seems that this situation regarding the anarchists hindering the actual revolution, was specific to Spain. It's only one experience, the Spanish one. We musn't jump to conclusions about Anarchists; how do we know they will fight 'us' later?

Kez
4th June 2002, 16:25
because they are against a state, be it a workers state or the capitalist state

Kez
4th June 2002, 16:37
Well,

the Spanish experience is very important for the anarchist movement. Go to the IAW website (main anarchist international) and you'll see a entire section on Spain.

And is not only the 1868-1873 revolution is also their role in the 1931-1937 revolution when they handed back power to the bourgeios. Read the writings of Abad de Santillan (leader of the CNT) and we admitted that the could take power. But they were anarchists and they are against all power, which is nonsense.

The problem of power is the problem of anarchism.

For a Workers' Democracy!

Menshevik
4th June 2002, 17:50
But do you not agree that power ultimately corrupts?

Kez
4th June 2002, 18:35
only if it is a plutocracy

plutocracy is when power is for the few yes?

evil chris
4th June 2002, 22:33
now kamo, i may be a poorly read drop-out but even failures like me know that taking your sources from one side of one event isn't a good way to factual accuracy.

evil chris
4th June 2002, 22:55
Yes anarchists do not vote.
Is that what allowed the right to take power at the ballot?
No.

Voters allowed the right to take power at the ballot in the mistaken idea that elections are democratic and then in handing power over to these fruitloops.
The right proved by rising up against the Republic in 36 that they were laughing their tits off at the fools who voted and then gave them power coz they were gonna take it anyway!

"Har Har Har, you bought the lie you dippy fuckwits!"

Anarchists belive in democracy, of rule and self government by the people themselves, rather than encourgeing them to deffer the responsibity to be free.
The responsibity to be free involves fighting against those who would oppress us,regardless of whether they try to rule by force,coercion, ballot or "dictatorship of the proles",wether the oppessor call themselves Facists,Socialist Workers,New Labour,National Front,Republicans or the Peoples Front Of Judea for that matter.

yes power currupts,State power,Iligitmate power,Hierarcal power but not People Power.
This man doesn't hate power.Just the Power that wears jackboots and a tie.





(Edited by evil chris at 11:07 pm on June 4, 2002)

evil chris
4th June 2002, 23:03
sorry. i think i should make something clear before this turns too sectarian.
In our actions i work with socialists,left communists,anarchists,greens and hey, whoever i agree with on the action we're doing.
but this is a theorectical arguement and so theory will shine through.


(Edited by evil chris at 8:47 pm on June 5, 2002)

Kez
5th June 2002, 12:20
what is this bullshit?

let us not forget that there are 3 sorts of people here, not 2, cappies and anti-cappies

there are cappies who are against commies and anarchists
there are commies who are anti-cappie and not arsed about stupid anarchists
and there are anarchists who wanna destroy both socialism and capitalism equally much so

the anarchist i am talking about is a pure anarchist, not a syndacist or whatever

Fabi
5th June 2002, 15:11
to not let syndicalists be considered anarchists is not a good approach...

anarchy is not against socialism, it is against STATE socialism.

"And is not only the 1868-1873 revolution is also their role in the 1931-1937 revolution when they handed back power to the bourgeios. "

in fact the bourgeios had support from the COMMUNISTS who found the anarchists to be worse than the fascist threat. In fact Russia supported Franco since a succesful worker's revolution would have undermined the necessity of a transitional phase on the way to 'real' communism.
to say that the CNT helped the capitalists (or something close to that, sorry if i dont remember it exactly) is flawed if you do so by simply picking out leaders, who in fact weren't anarchist in the first place.


"For a Workers' Democracy! "

THAT is exactly what anarchism is about.

Fabi
5th June 2002, 15:16
"Stalin's support gave more power to the Communist Party of Spain which was smaller and weaker than either the Independent Marxist Party (POUM) or the Anarchists. It was this intervention by Moscow that led the Communists to the tragic mistake of believing they could compromise with Franco. The anarchists and members of POUM saw the Civil War as a chance at creating a social revolution. The war was seen as a defense of the communes and factory occupations that were going on in Northern Spain. In Madrid the communists and the Republican government saw this as a war in defense of parliamentary democracy against the forces of fascism and reaction. The world powers, saw this as a possible prelude to World War and were terrified of confronting Germany and Italy over the issue.

The Communists and the Republican Government believed that they could negotiate with Franco if they quelled the anarchist revolution in Catalonia and Barcelona. It was this tragic policy that led to a civil war within the civil war. Communist party commissars and military advisors from Moscow, seized control of the army and attacked the anarchists and POUMists. The most pitched battles in the last days of the civil war were in the cities controlled by the Anarchists laid siege to by the Republican army under communist control. "

source: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/9820/spain.html

Fabi
5th June 2002, 15:30
"THE WAR in Spain (1936-1939) has often been portrayed as a simple struggle between Fascism and democracy. In fact it was anything but. A military coup launched in July 1936 was defeated by worker's action in most parts of Spain.

There then followed a wide ranging social revolution (see Worker's Solidarity 33). As many as 5-7 million were involved in the collectivisation of agriculture and thousands in worker's control of industry. About 2 million of these were also members of the oldest union in Spain the anarcho-syndicalist; CNT.

As with all revolutions a counter-revolution followed quickly on the Spanish revolution. This was spearheaded by the Spanish Communist party. These were faithful adherents to Stalin's foreign policy of sucking up to France and England in the hope of military and economic alliances. They resisted the revolution at all stages and found willing allies in the Spanish republican and socialist forces. All took pains to convey to the world a struggle between fascism and democracy.

They also took steps to try and make it such a struggle by smashing collectives and factory committees and sabotaging the efforts of revolutionary forces at the front. However even more worrying is the fact that the "anarchists" of the CNT made little attempt to combat these forces. In fact four became government ministers.

One tendency within the CNT; the Friends of Durruti resisted the growing reformism within the CNT. "

source: http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/ws92/fod34.html

Fabi
5th June 2002, 15:40
"Marxists have usually argued that workers power built in a revolution must be consolidated in a "state" since the workers' armed fight against the defenders of capitalism means "repression" of "another class." As Engels said:
"A revolution is the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part by means of rifles, bayonets, and cannon -- authoritarian means, if such there be at all; and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionaries."(28)

But Engels is here playing with words. When the power of the bosses is broken, and workers take over control of the society, this is an act of liberation. To say that the armed defense of the workers freedom is "authoritarian" is like saying that I am engaging in "theft" if I take back from a thief the jacket that he previously stole from me.

The "repression" directed against the capitalist class consists in forcibly removing their power to exploit the working class. But the former bosses do not thus become a new exploited class; they simply lose their former position as order-givers and owners. As the economy is re-organized under workers management, ex-bosses are forced to accept equality, to become workers like everybody else.

But they would enjoy the same rights as everyone else -- including the right to criticize existing arrangements. Of course, if they go beyond mere grousing and actually make an armed attempt to re-impose their rule, the community has the right to use armed force to defend its freedom. But the community's collective, democratic control of the dominant armed force is not a "state" because there is no longer a separate, privileged class in possession of political and economic power. "


source: http://www.uncanny.net/~wsa/spain.html

Fabi
5th June 2002, 15:52
"anarchists who wanna destroy both socialism and capitalism equally much so
"

anarchists want to destroy only capitalism. state socialism and state communism, however, are nothing but state capitalism.
this is even something lenin admitted, claiming that "our task is to study the state capitalism of the Germans, to spare no effort in copying it and not shrink from adopting dictatorial methods to hasten the copying of it" (Lenin, Ibid, Vol. 27 page 340)

Fabi
5th June 2002, 16:03
i want to stress, though, that everyone is entitled to his opinion and i do not claim to be right on everything (maybe anything) i posted here. i did the best i coud, but i am not an authority (not in a hierachical way ;)) on the topic of either anarchism, or the spanish revolution(s)...

i myself do not consider myself anyting, yet, politically, simply because i do not think i know enough, to form an opinion as of now.
nevertheless i did notice, the more i read about anarchism, that a lot of thoughts that i have had in the last years are neatly summed up or at least talked about in a similar way in a lot of anarchist writings.

i may be biased on the topic, simply because the theory of anarchism attracts me, personally for it very much resembles the way i think.

maybe, as i grow older, i will step back from it eventually....

also i do not think that anarchists are really opposed to communism... only to the transtitional phase... know what i mean?

Shock To The System
5th June 2002, 20:21
''stupid anarchists''? hahahahha, kamo, your the one who thinks he can 'beat the system' by getting his a-levels..............
anarchists are intent on destroying socialism are they kamo?
Well , that just proves YOUR stupidity and ignorance, beacuse anarchism is a form of socialism...infact, it supports and fights for socialisms core ideology..'social equality', much more than pseudo-communists like you ever will.
Personally I get along with and support libertarian-communists, so i don't have any idea why you seem to be so anti-anarchist....
maybe it's because you know little about it, apart from the complete bullshit you read on 'youth for international socialism', which can only be explained as blatant lies and propaganda to try and turn people against anarchism(probably for the increasingly corrupt groups personal gain).
Infact, here is a site that puts right those comments made by y.f.i.s, 'socialsim from below' and other organisations intent on dividing the left
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1931/append3.html
..............................i also suggest you read the section on 'what is anarchism?' http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1931/secAcon.html

Hopefully, after you have read these various articles you will understand that anarchists do not wish to divide the left. Most of us sport black and red flags, infact, which symbolises left unity.
The only things anarchists oppose are: heirarchy.
Now, authoritarian communism (state socialism/ Stalinism) , and capitalism fall into these catergories , therefore anarchists oppose these, amongst many other things (such as hierarchal religion, etc).
That doesn't mean we are anti-communist. We are only opposed to a certain type of communism. State socialism, or any other forms that are authoritarian, or oppressive, that threat the freedom of the individual.

Valkyrie
5th June 2002, 21:45
Read your Marx Kamo. The full circle finale is a society without a state. The end-all of Marxism.

(Edited by Paris at 9:47 pm on June 5, 2002)

Kez
7th June 2002, 18:48
Bah, what is this bullshit?

The fact that i wanna get a-levels doesnt mean i wont resist the system, and i suppose you will defeat the system by? what dossing about? yeah, so with no power to influence you will change society?

or not, u keep smoking ur ganja and leave the rest to people who know a thing or 2.

"Shock, as well as contradicting yourself in your little post, you also made it quite clear of your ignorance and ur lack of intellect in the field of anarchy, (which fortunately, cannot be sed for chris).
In a workers state individuals are brought forward to bring changes into place, and according to how well they represent the people, the longer they will stay so.
These representatives as you should know, are seen as "state" or "authority", and therefor you "anarchists", would be against them.

Also the fact that some people here wish to generalise any type of socialism to stalinism to suit their argument, is very much present in this thread, and one should be wary (sp) of such.

If you could give me 1 day to prepare, i will post another essay on how anarchists intend to destroy socialism. When i mean anarchists i mean pure anarchist, not the liveratarian communists or the other type ( i forget)

Many anarchist arguments are based on world wide communism being present, as many of us know, this isnt the case now, so i do not see the point in such anarchist developement

Peace
Comrade Kamo

evil chris
8th June 2002, 01:57
"The fact that i wanna get a-levels doesnt mean i wont resist the system"

but in what way?The brainwashing you willfully subject yourself to makes it easier for the first con man with an attractive idea to come along and scope you up.
I would argue that your "resisting" the system (in what way you've been doing this is still uncelar...) is as dangerous as the system you apparently hate.

"so with no power to influence you will change society? "

i don't need coercion when i have the ideal of freedom.

"or not, u keep smoking ur ganja "

i don't smoke myself but i know alot of very switched on people who use draw as a study aid aswell as a high.

"and leave the rest to people who know a thing or 2."

what, like you and Lenin?
a thing or two is literal then!

"(which fortunately, cannot be sed for chris). "

creep.


chris

RGacky3
8th June 2002, 02:10
Anarchy is a dream world. Most anarchists are just stupid punks who want riot and destroy the governent becouse the sex pistols are anarchists. Then there's the real anarchists who live in a dream world where every one loves each other and does everything for every one else.

evil chris
8th June 2002, 02:49
thats fairly sweeping.

"Anarchy is a dream world"

in what respect?

"Most anarchists are just stupid punks "

that so is it? you know alot of anarchists? i know a few and i can't think of one who is just a stupid punk.Or a punk full stop.


"who want riot and destroy the governent becouse the sex pistols are anarchists. "

breathtaking in your pressumtion there,I really hope you have something to back that up with coz otherwise you'd look like a complete twat.
The Sex Pistols were anarchists in the loosest "spit and look scary" way that gives anarchism a bad name, ie Lawless,listless,pointless.
The Sex Pistols also weren't very good.
Why not loisten to some anarchist punk bands like crass or Conflict ( i aint a punk kid but even i reckon that Conflict rule)

Then there's the real anarchists who live in a dream world where every one loves each other and does everything for every one else."

not quite as breathtaking admitedly, some anarchists are stary eyed dreamers but whts wrong qwith alittle dreamin' anayway?

man in the red suit
8th June 2002, 05:31
crass fucking sucks. sex pistols are awesome regardless of whether or not they are complete posers.

Kez
8th June 2002, 11:35
the guy i was refering to smokin ganja was shock as it seems he is obsessed with the shit.

by going into a-level dont mean i will be brainwashed, only the weak and uneducated get brainwashed.

when i sed "which cannot be sed for chris", it was a complement, i dunno if u saw it that way.

and also there isnt just me and lenin, theres gacky too

Shock To The System
8th June 2002, 15:04
As me smoking ganja appears to be a problem to you kamo, i will simply say this:

Why don't you take a look at yourself before you judge someone simply on the fact he/she takes a banned substance?
And as your so fascinated about my personal life (which has nothing to do with you, or anyone else) i'll tell you why i smoke ganja.
I smoke ganja about once every 2 weeks, and sometimes to relieve pain in my right knee (i've always suffered from cramps due to a deformity in my knee, something I was born with) as I find it's a better pain killer than this paracetemol/iprobrofen crap.
Secondly, I smoke it for recreational use.
I find it's a safer and much less harmful drug than alcohol etc.
Thirdly, kamo, how the fuck do you know if i'm ''obsessed with the shit''!?
You don't actually know me, you've never met me.
As for, ''you also made it quite clear of your ignorance and ur lack of intellect in the field of anarchy''...well kamo, i've never claimed to know it all, and i've only been interested in anarchism for about 6 months.....sorry we're not all so perfect and all-knowing as you.
Finally, why did you have to make silly little personal attacks against me? Why make this personal kamo?
No other way to defend yourself? Lack of knowledge maybe?

Shock To The System
8th June 2002, 15:27
Oh, and kamo......
Representitives ( atleast the way i'd believe it should work) have no actual authority over another individual. They are simply 'advisors', with no group/organisation e.g. 'state' , protecting them, or carrying out there 'will'.
Therefore, they can be elected and removed by the workers.
Therefore, where is the authority?

Fabi
8th June 2002, 15:33
yes... actually they are delegates...
they are voted to do what they were voted to do... if they do something different from what their electors wanted, they can be called back immediately, and their 'decisions' will be taken back, too.
i.e. they do not stand above the people who elected them.

Shock To The System
8th June 2002, 15:38
lol Kamo's threatening me on MSN now!
I simply ask why u have to make it personal, and u start talking abt fighting you!?
Chill kamo mate.

Kez
8th June 2002, 15:52
i didnt actually attack you, so wtf

just from what i DID know about u, u smoked ganja and drank absynthe, and from what i DID know you werent arsed about social studies. so there u have it.
A misunderstanding, but this is irellevant from the thread.

How can anarchism exist when there is no communist international world wide?
Its counter productive, and anarchists are willing to fight in this counter-productive manner.

That is my only quarrel

Fabi
8th June 2002, 15:58
i personally never said that anarchy could work now...... but i still think (right now at least, still learning) that anarchism/anarchy is the 'best' form of human organisation and coexistence.

Shock To The System
8th June 2002, 16:14
so, maybe i'm not that 'ignorant' towards anarchism then... :P
As for the absinthe....im lucky to get a bottle once a year from my spanish cousins who live in barcelona.
And 'social studies'...i became uninteseted in it, yes, true.
Why? beacuse it was crap basically!
It tries to turn you into a 'centralist' (in the political context, between left and right-wing).
You don't get a choice of what to study. All you get assigned to do is Marxist theory and Functionist right-wing theory.
You have to study and have knowledge of both to get a good grade.
Personally I found it very tedious learning the functionalist theory on crime, for example, which states, ''some people are simply born bad, therefore commit crime.''
Sorry, but i really didn't enjoy learning about that!
Also, you can't give your individual opinions. You can only give a marxist one or a functionalist one.
Although the marxist theory is by far the better, I still didn't enjoy it because I found myself constantly resisting the syllabus which was trying to turn me into a centralist.
I was also quite pissed off after being promised by one lecturer that we'd do a couple of lectures studying Chomsky, I later realised that she was only making this false promise, which never materialsied, to get me into the lessons!
Also, the other people in my group were quite tedious and just sucked up to the lecturer all the time (bar a couple of leftists, and an anarcho-chrsitian.......dont ask!)
So thats why i disliked 'social studies'. an dcouldn't eb arsed with it..........
Glad that's all sorted out now then.

Shock To The System
8th June 2002, 16:15
So, maybe i'm not that 'ignorant' towards anarchism then... :P

As for the absinthe....im lucky to get a bottle once a year from my spanish cousins who live in barcelona.
And 'social studies'...i became uninteseted in it, yes, true.
Why? beacuse it was crap basically!
It tries to turn you into a 'centralist' (in the political context, between left and right-wing).
You don't get a choice of what to study. All you get assigned to do is Marxist theory and Functionist right-wing theory.
You have to study and have knowledge of both to get a good grade.
Personally I found it very tedious learning the functionalist theory on crime, for example, which states, ''some people are simply born bad, therefore commit crime.''
Sorry, but i really didn't enjoy learning about that!
Also, you can't give your individual opinions. You can only give a marxist one or a functionalist one.
Although the marxist theory is by far the better, I still didn't enjoy it because I found myself constantly resisting the syllabus which was trying to turn me into a centralist.
I was also quite pissed off after being promised by one lecturer that we'd do a couple of lectures studying Chomsky, I later realised that she was only making this false promise, which never materialsied, to get me into the lessons!
Also, the other people in my group were quite tedious and just sucked up to the lecturer all the time (bar a couple of leftists, and an anarcho-chrsitian.......dont ask!)
So thats why i disliked 'social studies'. and couldn't be arsed with it..........
Glad that's all sorted out now then.

Shock To The System
8th June 2002, 16:16
sorry i posted that twice..my comps being a ****.

James
8th June 2002, 23:26
i'll forgive you
:)

evil chris
9th June 2002, 01:03
"sex pistols are awesome "

you reckon that Limp Bizkit are an inovitive and dyniamic force in music aswell?

"by going into a-level dont mean i will be brainwashed"

no your right ,it doesn't.Goin into primary and secondary schooling did the real ground work, your just consolidating it now.
To the point where you have compeltly internalised the lies so you can come out with this :"only the weak and uneducated get brainwashed. "

sorry buddy but your love of schooling has made you the weak and the uneducated.And it made you an easy target for the first con man who came along, ie, Marx, or rather, your understanding of Marxism.

"which cannot be sed for chris", it was a complement, i dunno if u saw it that way."

It was a poor attempt at bringing me onside.

"and also there isnt just me and lenin, theres gacky too"

it aint like subtracting a negative, you don't get more switched on if you have lots of ,shall we say, mislead ( coz flat out calling you idiots would be rude), people together doesn't give your arugemnts more weight.

"How can anarchism exist when there is no communist international world wide"

Many Anarchists and,indeed, revolutionaries in general, belive that the sucsessful revolution must be a global rising.We have seen before that the "Liberal Democracys" will side with facism, for at heart they are facists.It is also thought that these "free" countries would happily see us all die than allow us to truely live in freedom for their faked Authority would no longer be able to hoodwink their citizens.
We may not want a 13th International (or what ever fucking nunmber we're on) but we strongly belive in international links and contact webs.

Anonymous
10th June 2002, 00:07
But one thing you just didnt noticed is taht during the spanish civil war some vilages lived under a complete anarchism and didnt starve to death! see they suported each other you cant say all anarchist are bad some are punks but those arent real anarchists they are just punks! anarchism may be a utopic theory but its a lot bether tan capitalism, under anarchism there would be no unger or third world countrys because there would be no countrys nor money, there would be only people but this can only be achieved when people starrt to think racionaly and nowdays its just impossible, dont forget that maex one sayed that one day anarchism could be possible! he was right but thatday is too far!