The importance of weaponry

[Connolly]

Im just curious to know whether nations such as Ireland and the Uk are at a serious disadvantage due the lack of availabilty of weapons come revolution.

Also, the importation of weapons, I would imagine, is becoming more and more difficult as the state develops new means to control its borders.

Could weapons be a necessary material condition to bring about socialism?

In which case the USA, among the most advanced nations, will be at an advantage due to the ready availabilty of weapons.

Or, as with most things, does the availabilty of weapons have another, counter-revolutionary problem during a time of possible revolution.

[TheDifferenceEngine]

It's a called "Recceding empire syndrome."

After WW2 all of the great european nations lost their empires.

And that leads us neatly to the banning of guns.

(Damn you Thatcher!)

I'm sure that when things turn sour for the US, they'll ban guns too.

[Janus]

Could weapons be a necessary material condition to bring about socialism?
It's a necessary prerequisite to bring about any type of revolution.

As for the UK specifically, I've heard that it has some pretty strict gun laws but I would think that in a revolt, the populace would simply steal or seize the local military arsenal (which is what usually occurs) since personal firearms can only be sustained for so long and are limited in their effectiveness in combat.


In which case the USA, among the most advanced nations, will be at an advantage due to the ready availabilty of weapons.
In terms of readily available privately owned firearms then yes but that's a double edged sword when you think about the numbers of conservative people who own guns.

[freakazoid]

I'm sure that when things turn sour for the US, they'll ban guns too.

Probably. There are currently 2 competing bills right now it would seem. Here in the US.

H.R. 1096 - To restore the second amendment rights of all Americans.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-1096
Description:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h110-1096

and then there is this one, grrrr

H.R. 1024 - To reauthorize the assault weapons ban, and for other purposes
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h110-1022

[Janus]

I'm sure that when things turn sour for the US, they'll ban guns too.
There have been some recent national efforts to limit gun ownership but they're more or less ineffective. The gun rights lobby in the US is very strong unlike in the UK.

[SittingBull47]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 12:49 am

It's a necessary prerequisite to bring about any type of revolution.

False. Weaponry is NOT a necessity for revolution. Clearly our Admin here is ignoring the power of non-violent resistance (Ghandi anybody? you know, the skinny man who brought India independence from british colonial rule?).

Personally I'm all about intelligent and determined revolution as opposed to "letz blow shit up cuz' we can!!!11!" style revolution, although certain circumstances dictate the use of arms. Clearly Che and Fidel couldn't have taken Cuba by a hunger strike, and sub-comandante Marcos can't try to get support from the piano tuners association.

Brains > Brawn
Determination > Fury

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 12:31 am
False. Weaponry is NOT a necessity for revolution. Clearly our Admin here is ignoring the power of non-violent resistance (Ghandi anybody? you know, the skinny man who brought India independence from british colonial rule?).
Not this shit again.

[SittingBull47]

It's a valid point. prove why it isn't or straight up deal. You must have a pretty fucked up viewpoint if you can deny the achievements of Ghandi.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 08:44 am
It's a valid point. prove why it isn't or straight up deal. You must have a pretty fucked up viewpoint if you can deny the achievements of Ghandi.
No, it really isn't a valid point if you're familiar with the entire Indian anti-imperial struggle, and not just what the pacifists and other morons spout off about Ghandi. There was a great deal of violence during the struggle, despite Ghandi's efforts, and ultimately the British only gave up India because they couldn't afford it. Ghandi was certainly a major figure in the movement, but he wasn't the end-all-be-all and he didn't do it alone.

[BreadBros]

Weaponry is important if sustained civil war with state forces emerges. Looking past at periods of unrest throughout the world however, weapons arent necessarily of vital importance to the beginning of changes, riots, mass-marches, breakdown in authority etc. all lead to social changes. If the ball starts rolling like that it may become significantly easier to acquire weapons.

[TheDifferenceEngine]

Peaceful revolutionaries don't accomplish jack shit all.

You always get taught about non-violent resistance nad they never tell you about the guys who actually got their message across with violence.

[SittingBull47]

granted Ghandi was not the end-all, I'll give you that. But his message and ideology stuck around and became more important than the actual INA vs. British fighting.

[JKP]

Can we just ignore sittingbull(an ironic name for a pacifist) and get back on topic?

[CNT-FAI]

We are so far from revolution i don't see the point of discussing guns one way or another. Most Americans don't even know who we are, even after all these years. That is what IMO we need to be addressing, with concrete remedies.

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by CNT-[email protected] 02, 2007 01:16 pm
We are so far from revolution i don't see the point of discussing guns one way or another. Most Americans don't even know who we are, even after all these years. That is what IMO we need to be addressing, with concrete remedies.
I don't agree with you on the Lenin fetishism but you've hit the nail on the head.

People are putting the cart before the horse, or some other analogy which makes sense.

[CNT-FAI]

What is Lenin Fetishism?

[The Grey Blur]

Your obsession with Lenin and the non-existent "Leninism" you hate.

[RNK]

Better than being an anarchist IMO.

Building a capable offensive organization hand-in-hand with the building of the vanguardist party is highly important. One can not build a party and expect it to overthrow a government if there is no armed force capable of protecting it as it grows.

[CNT-FAI]

Please give examples of my "obsession". True, i don't like Lenin, but that's not a diagnosis.:) Anyway i say more about Stalinism, the historical outgrowth of Leninism.

Here is Lenin at work: the massacre of the Kronstadt sailors. Only one example (Here's one time i actually mention Lenin:



http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/jobrien/reference/ob19.html



I'm not a Marxist at all, altho i believe Marx has things of value to say. "Communism" in power has always degenerated into authoritarian terror & repression, the opposite of what Marx wanted to see. In no case has Marxist socialism blossomed into Marxian communism. This is true in part because the world-historical conditions for communism according to Marx have not been met.

That would require a capitalism that is global & that then reaches a point where it becomes an actual drag on production, i.e. ceases to be a dynamic force. Marx as you may know was not anti-capitalist per se - he saw it as a valuable historic phase.

I say this just to clarify my own position, not to start a fight. I realise many people here will not agree. But please, let's show respect for other tendencies; this is not an exclusively Communist forum (even if the hammers & sickles do outnumber the Anarchy symbols.:)

My own leaning is towards Anarcho-syndicalism, which in fact has had actual if limited success even today & provides certain elements that make it more viable than "pure" anarchism. But i'm more than happy to discuss with Communists provided they don't think they have all the answers. I sure don't.

[JKP]

Also, can we avoid having this degenerate a Leninism vs Anarchism debate?

Just drop it, and get back on topic.

[The Grey Blur]

Hey, I never mentioned Anarchism did I?


Please give examples of my "obsession"
A thread where you and fellow ultra-lefts attack Lenin and "Leninism", before it had even be raised (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=63245)

It's not us that follow any personality cult around Lenin and make him out to be super-human but you. Saying things like;


Here is Lenin at work: the massacre of the Kronstadt sailors
Yes, because Lenin went and personally killed every one of the Kronstadt sailors :rolleyes:

JKP or whichever other North American wants to boast about their gun collection, feel free to steer this back on topic.

[Janus]

False. Weaponry is NOT a necessity for revolution. Clearly our Admin here is ignoring the power of non-violent resistance
There is no "power" in non-violent resistance. It only works if you have strong sympathy within the ruling class.

(Ghandi anybody? you know, the skinny man who brought India independence from british colonial rule?).
Gandhi may have been at the forefront of it but he was still part of a much larger movement. The "great leader" theory is simply false.

[freakazoid]

JKP or whichever other North American wants to boast about their gun collection, feel free to steer this back on topic.

I once had a CETME, predecessor to the H&K G3, but I had to sell it for money, :(. But I am planning on getting some type of AK. :D

edit- lol I spelled CETME as CEMTE

[Sadena Meti]

The main "revolutionary" anti-gun argument seems to be "the revolution isn't happening tomorrow, so no need to do anything."

A couple of points, 1. there's no time like the present for getting prepared, and 2. violent armed action will likely be needed outside of the final revolutionary days.

It seems a lot of people here have the mentality of "I won't get involved until it is time to march on the Winter Palace."


Never too early to build up your private stockpile You never know when you’ll need them. :D

[razboz]

Thats pretty scary rev-stoic :o

I was not an consciencous objector id have an assault riffle with ammunition and training free of charge at my place of residence courtesy of the government. I guess that's what i get for being a hippy : No gun :(

[JKP]

Doesn't Switzerland have very liberal gun laws, and hence a very low crime rate? I think the gun paranoia is more a British and and American liberal thing. Hell, even the french could own full auto until around 1991 or so!

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 01:28 pm
Doesn't Switzerland have very liberal gun laws, and hence a very low crime rate?
Its due to the militia structure of their army which considers every able bodied male a member of the reserves.

[TheDifferenceEngine]

Originally posted by ComradeOm+March 05, 2007 01:43 pm--> (ComradeOm @ March 05, 2007 01:43 pm)
[email protected] 05, 2007 01:28 pm
Doesn't Switzerland have very liberal gun laws, and hence a very low crime rate?
Its due to the militia structure of their army which considers every able bodied male a member of the reserves. [/b]
Every man who has completed military conscription in switzerland has to keep a SIG 550 and 1000 rounds at home just in case.

The officers also get to keep their pistols too.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by TheDifferenceEngine+March 05, 2007 10:46 am--> (TheDifferenceEngine @ March 05, 2007 10:46 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 01:43 pm

[email protected] 05, 2007 01:28 pm
Doesn't Switzerland have very liberal gun laws, and hence a very low crime rate?
Its due to the militia structure of their army which considers every able bodied male a member of the reserves.
Every man who has completed military conscription in switzerland has to keep a SIG 550 and 1000 rounds at home just in case.

The officers also get to keep their pistols too. [/b]
Whoa... how does one sign up for the Swiss army? :lol:

[JKP]

Originally posted by TheDifferenceEngine+March 05, 2007 08:46 am--> (TheDifferenceEngine @ March 05, 2007 08:46 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 01:43 pm

[email protected] 05, 2007 01:28 pm
Doesn't Switzerland have very liberal gun laws, and hence a very low crime rate?
Its due to the militia structure of their army which considers every able bodied male a member of the reserves.
Every man who has completed military conscription in switzerland has to keep a SIG 550 and 1000 rounds at home just in case.

The officers also get to keep their pistols too. [/b]
Well my point is that they don't go around killing each other even though everyone's packing heat.

[TheDifferenceEngine]

Originally posted by black coffee black metal+March 05, 2007 11:14 pm--> (black coffee black metal @ March 05, 2007 11:14 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 10:46 am

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 01:43 pm

[email protected] 05, 2007 01:28 pm
Doesn't Switzerland have very liberal gun laws, and hence a very low crime rate?
Its due to the militia structure of their army which considers every able bodied male a member of the reserves.
Every man who has completed military conscription in switzerland has to keep a SIG 550 and 1000 rounds at home just in case.

The officers also get to keep their pistols too.
Whoa... how does one sign up for the Swiss army? :lol: [/b]
You have to be a swiss citizen.

The 1000 rounds are in a sealed box which is only to be used in the event of invasion.

And everyone who has a gun in switzerland has to take weekly marksmanship classes.

No wonder the swiss are so neutral, if they went to war they'd pwn all!

Also, the swiss run a neutral base on the north/south border in korea.

[piet11111]

im always surprised to hear how ex-convicts always manage to get weapons even when they are on parole in the netherlands.
you often hear about shootings or drugbusts where they also find loads of weapons but i would love to know where they get those things just out of curiousity.

anyway i say that every revolutionary should have the means to get him/herself armed.
like say a nice stack of cash in a can someware and knowing a guy who has a friend with an uncle that might be able to sell a gun or 2 for not too much.

[Janus]

you often hear about shootings or drugbusts where they also find loads of weapons but i would love to know where they get those things just out of curiousity.
Organized crime connections, friends, or unlicensed gun salesmen. It's not that hard especially for people who already have connections.

[Sadena Meti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 07:45 pm

you often hear about shootings or drugbusts where they also find loads of weapons but i would love to know where they get those things just out of curiousity.
Organized crime connections, friends, or unlicensed gun salesmen. It's not that hard especially for people who already have connections.
I'd like to point out that that statement only applies in Europe.

Contrary to what the NRA likes to believe, there is no black market for guns in the US. There doesn't need to be one, enough loopholes in current laws that anyone can get anything anytime anywhere.

[Janus]

there is no black market for guns in the US.
It depends on the type of weapon and the location. Obviously, if you were living in Texas or something, guns even military grade ones aren't too hard to procure.

[RNK]

I'd love to get my hands on a gun. I live in Quebec, Canada, if anyone has any connections. ;)

[Sadena Meti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 07:29 pm
I'd love to get my hands on a gun. I live in Quebec, Canada, if anyone has any connections. ;)
Simple. Drive to the US for a "weekend vacation", though don't go to New York. Find a gunshow, buy from a private seller, cash and carry, no ID, then stash the gun inside one of the seats in your car, drive home.

If necessary bring a sewing kit.