Communism and all you commy lovers

[Tkinter1]

What individual benefits does communism have? what is the ultimate gain in communism that far outways capatailism or any other economic system? If everyone is the same class and gets exactly what they need, what more could they want right? so i guess that meens no 'hot' car. No expensive jewlery. Nothing that you dont need or that would ultimately set you apart from society is the key. You wouldn't be challenged in school, everyone would learn at the same level. if a worker doesn't wanna work no more, its ok, you can pay for him until he feels like working again( or just kill him)! A world united under communism would never last. Does anyone in here plan to see communism arise ever. If you say "well communism worked in cuba", please your only embarrasing yourself. If you say Russia... i say what communsism?? If you say china... i say they have a president...if you say 3rd world smaller countries... i say they dont count they were poor anyways. im expecting trash talk so try to come up with something more original then you dont know what your talking about or what an idiot or loser.

[Nick Yves]

you make some good points. the only good thing i see about communism is that everyone would be equal. but its the exact opposite of what most people want- freedom.

[James]

I do respect your opinion, and you wernt (that) abusive, so i will be so in my reply.

The idea is that people work for their own benifit. The more they work, the more they get back out of the system. I don't know about you, but i certainly wouldn't just stay at home all day, I'd much rather get out and and about and do some work. I can't stand not doing anything. In capitalism you don't have to work. In the UK you can simply claim benifits, and get a council house. However not everyone does this do they? Some do though, so by your ideiology - does that mean capitalism is stupid?

I will write more if you wish, later

James

[Avamatha]

Yep, good points you have there.

And I guess we just have to accept the human nature: Somebody just are leader-alike and someguys just follow, doing just something to show they're doing something. The leader does the only hard work, and yet they all get the same amounts of money. (Please ignore my bad english, you all get the point, don'tcha?)

But then, I think it's good idea that no matter who you are, you can get free things, hospital things and education and and... Everyone has rights for them. Not everyone wants to study, though.

And this world wouldn't go around if everyone would be high-educated jibba jabbas. We need those trashguys and schoolcleaners etc. much more.

So, communism is a good idea, but it doesn't quite work... yet.

[lennon]

I would draw your attention to the UN figures for Health and Education in Cuba. They ll make you shudder!!! Also haven travelled through work, I can say that Cuban people are visibly more happy and healthy than the american proletariat ( where Ive been too) . Cuba has no problem with youth disorder, and a much less visible drug problem than every country Ive been to ( if it has one at all).
Today there was a funeral procession down my road. Do you know how many people came out of their home to pay any respect : a big fat zero, nobody at all. Western society is just self centred and has lost touch with the concept of COMMUNIty .It was very sad and spoke volumes. Thats what Communism is about : togertheness: community and understanding that life can be easier and more pleasant if we work together, like a football team.
Would you enjoy playing for a football team if when you were successful only one or two people get praise and reward and the rest have their effort ignored, despite working just as hard , or harder than those reaping the rewards??? Thats what happens in Capitalism today. I could go on and on..............
Anyway you have an opinion and thats fine, but is it really your own or are you just reflecting a lifetimes worth of anti- communist propaganda input from the powers that be??? ( look up Hegemony).

[RGacky3]

here are some examples of where communism/socialism has worked: Norway, sweeden, vietnam, nigeragua, cuba, USSR (much better under communism than it is now), Poland an Hungry (many former solviet states are reterning to communism).

[Tkinter1]

Ok gacky thank you for that reply.... lets see under communism there is no gov right!??! uhhh guess we forgot STALIN in USSR... so X that off your list. same with CUBA they have castro. Poland, hungary and all thos other quote un quote commy nations arent even communist. They were soviet sattelites, so they were the "fake commys" as i like to refer to them as. Just because something is CALLED communism doesnt mean it IS. (same goes for all the other coutries you listed) sorry bud.

I have yet to see a communist nation where there is no government.

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 5:02 am on June 1, 2002)

[thebigcom]

it is my personal belief that the ideals of communism are now present to oppose the oppressive nature of capitalism, nothing more. the idea of communism itself is not easily applied, and is more or less is used to scare other forms of gov't

[lennon]

Communist countries will have a government for the transitional phase from Capitalism . This is a requirement that Marx highlighted and could take any number of years. Whilst the system is/was having to protect itself from other threats, then Communism could not have possibly gone through the transitional phase. Thus your argument about governments being present in pure Communism, tho true, is qualified against when you look at the bigger picture.
Without a government in Cuba Dubya would be in within an hour!!!!

[BOZG]

Lennon is right. There must be an interim government to prepare the system to run itself and to organise the communes to be self sufficient.

[Tkinter1]

when Fidel dies someone will take his place. Do you know of any plans for the interim government to render real communism?

[BOZG]

Cuba is a dictatorship that is not true communism.

[Tkinter1]

The "dictatorship" has been present in all communist countries.

[Tkinter1]

"Without a government in Cuba Dubya would be in within an hour!!!!"
Come on lennon, isnt that a huge exageration? Cuba isnt U.S. public enemy no.1 anymore. What reason would the U.S. have to go there. To kill innocent people? Rape? women? steal? because you know thats all that americans do to oter countries right?

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 5:18 pm on June 1, 2002)

[honest intellectual]

You cannot deny that the USa has and continues to act aggresively towards Cuba. It is on its 'axis of evil' list, it is considered a 'rogue state', and then there's the little point of the embargo.


The "dictatorship" has been present in all communist countries.
not true. Anarcho-socialism existed in the Americas and the Carribean before they were colonised. Angola is democratic.
Besides, I don't think you've thought through what is meant by democracy. We are told it is a man with a vote, but democracy really means "government of the people by the people" by whatever means. And which is more democratic: Cuba, with a democratic dictatorship, where the "dictator" does what the people want, or the U.S.A. where every 4 years people pick which one of two nearly identical parties they want to rule over them.

[Tkinter1]

Honest, the anrachist socialism your talking about probably existed in a time where it was a small group of people and there was no other thought of a different goverment. And we in the US dont get 'ruled over' if an officail does something morninc he gets kicked out. Were not powerless. and there are HUNDREDS of political parties. but they are not widely known. And the embargo was started like 60 years ago, many government officails and most of our people want to end it. We love the cigars :). If fidel does what the people want... why are they swimming in the masses to get here. yes some people like fidel and like what hes doing. But i think most don't, thats why florida is PACKED with cubans. and what hostility towards cuba???


(Edited by Tkinter1 at 8:58 pm on June 1, 2002)

[Hayduke]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 1:56 am on June 2, 2002
Honest, the anrachist socialism your talking about probably existed in a time where it was a small group of people and there was no other thought of a different goverment. And we in the US dont get 'ruled over' if an officail does something morninc he gets kicked out. Were not powerless. and there are HUNDREDS of political parties. but they are not widely known. And the embargo was started like 60 years ago, many government officails and most of our people want to end it. We love the cigars :). If fidel does what the people want... why are they swimming in the masses to get here. yes some people like fidel and like what hes doing. But i think most don't, thats why florida is PACKED with cubans. and what hostility towards cuba???


(Edited by Tkinter1 at 8:58 pm on June 1, 2002)


Tkinter1,

You know what it is with Cuba, people can use it as a negative
example " see people run away from Cuba ", but lets face it
Cuba has never got the change to develop.
Afgorse a country is poor when there's a trade embargo placed
on it.
Do you think America would be big with a trade embargo on it ?
Guess again...

[Tkinter1]

"Do you think America would be big with a trade embargo on it ?"

We import more then we export... and where a still a super power. think im lying???? and also it wouldnt be economically wise for coutries NOT to trade with us. it would hurt them more than us, because we buy everything over seas
guess again

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 9:30 pm on June 1, 2002)

[lennon]

I didnt say Cuba was public enemy number one. Dubya wants Cuba for economic reasons as well as political.
1. Cuba has oil
2 Cuba is fertile: sugar, tobacco, etc etc.
3 Cuba has a very high level of intellectual property
4 Cuba has a rapidly growing and lucrative tourist trade
5 Cuba owns rights to many of the latest pharmaceutical breakthroughs and is a world leader in this field.
6 Capitalism depends upon exploiting new markets: Ronnie Mac cant wait to open in Havana! What a great market Cuba could be.
7 The less academically able will be a great source of sweat shop labour.
I could write all night on why the US wants Cuba for economic gain.
Then there are political reasons, Dubya hasnt quite grasped that the cold war has ended, and Uncle Sam appears to have won!

[Shock To The System]

you forget about Anarchism....Anarchism has worked in a number of countries throughout history.
E.g. Spanish revolution.....the Anarchists lead a successful revolution, and look at what it did in that country for the 2 years the Anarchists kept 'power'.....
Currency was abolsihed altogether in many farming communitys....and the farms were producing surplus amounts of food for the population....
The trams in barcelona became sumthing like 5 times more effeicient, and the number of deaths on teh tramlines was slashed........
Also, look at the Ukraine during the Russian revolution.......
The anarchist militia liberated it, and helped organise communes.....until trotsky massacred them..... :(
Point is though, anarchism can work given the right conditions, and the right timing.

[Tkinter1]

way to post off topic Shock

[Shock To The System]

yeah, sorry...couldnt resist!......anarchists have feelings too!

[Hayduke]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 2:24 am on June 2, 2002
"Do you think America would be big with a trade embargo on it ?"

We import more then we export... and where a still a super power. think im lying???? and also it wouldnt be economically wise for coutries NOT to trade with us. it would hurt them more than us, because we buy everything over seas
guess again

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 9:30 pm on June 1, 2002)

Yeh now you can come with arguments like " it would hurt them more then us " but do you think America will be rich when they can't trade ? Cuba almost has to import everything, cause there
isnt much on the island itself. Its totally unfair to call a island " not working " and on the same time keeping it poor yourself.

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 3:36 am on May 31, 2002
What individual benefits does communism have? what is the ultimate gain in communism that far outways capatailism or any other economic system? If everyone is the same class and gets exactly what they need, what more could they want right? so i guess that meens no 'hot' car. No expensive jewlery. Nothing that you dont need or that would ultimately set you apart from society is the key. You wouldn't be challenged in school, everyone would learn at the same level. if a worker doesn't wanna work no more, its ok, you can pay for him until he feels like working again( or just kill him)! A world united under communism would never last. Does anyone in here plan to see communism arise ever. If you say "well communism worked in cuba", please your only embarrasing yourself. If you say Russia... i say what communsism?? If you say china... i say they have a president...if you say 3rd world smaller countries... i say they dont count they were poor anyways. im expecting trash talk so try to come up with something more original then you dont know what your talking about or what an idiot or loser.



couple things there regarding your country/communism capabilities.

Communism works excellently in Cuba, we are not embarassing ourselves by saying this.

Russia is worse off now than they were when they were communist. All of my Russian friends liked communist Russia. Gorbachev is the reason they aint commie no more.

China-what the hell are you talking about? they have a president..........yeah............and...........

see where I'm going? what do presidents have to do with communism? Not all commie countries are dictatorships. Understand that communism is economics and not politics. Communist democracies have existed in Hungary, Polland, Nicaragua, and other European countries.

Of course the third world countries count, Have you noticed that their living standards have improved from communism?

communism deprives no man of his individuality. You don't need money and fancy cars to be individual. People still buy the things they want, however they don't buy as many "fancy" things that we have. Even if it did deprive us of individuality, it would deprive us of less individuality than does capitalism, where we are all fucked over individualy. Do you even feel the need for individuality? I don't. Individuality leads to rascism and causes social classes. This is not right (in my 0inion)

(Edited by man in the red suit at 3:29 am on June 4, 2002)

[Tkinter1]

ok red suit. Commuinsts states should not have presidents, becaus under communism there is no governemnt. OH AND YEA RUSSIA WAS WAY BETTER OFF UNDER STALINS RULE. AND YEA CUBAS DOING GREAT,......THATS WHY THOUSANDS SWIM TO U.S. YOU DONT HAVE A CLUE WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT

"(communism deprives no man of his individuality.) You don't need money and fancy cars to be individual. People still buy the things they want, however they don't buy as many "fancy" things that we have. Even if it did deprive us of individuality, it would deprive us of less individuality than does capitalism( BUT wait, capatailism is onyl an economic system right so what does it have to do with indivuality?), (where we are all fucked over individualy.) (Do you even feel the need for individuality? I don't). (Individuality leads to rascism and causes social classes.) This is not right

IDIOTIC!! anything with "()" shows true idiocy

living standars dont improve in communism they only eqaulaise. and smaller coutries dont count, because marxis theory is it should take over the world, and communism will not work that way. and you make it seem like US is PURE capatailsm. We have socailistic things, such as socail security, welfare, unions. Your lucky you live in the US, despite all the bullshit you throw down on this forum.

COULD SOMEONE TELL IF HES JOKING???

[honest intellectual]

Honest, the anrachist socialism your talking about probably existed in a time where it was a small group of people and there was no other thought of a different goverment.
So?


And we in the US dont get 'ruled over' if an officail does something morninc he gets kicked out. Were not powerless. and there are HUNDREDS of political parties. but they are not widely known.
Something moronic like sleeping with a hooker. Not something moronic like killing thousands of civilians. And as for the minority political parties, I know they are around, but in reality you must admit, there are only two parties witha any power.
You are powerless. Like I said before, the only 'democracy' you have is picking between these two identical parties every four years. And if you vote for a minority party, you have even less power, as your vote will not count

[honest intellectual]

ok red suit. Commuinsts states should not have presidents, becaus under communism there is no governemnt.
Yes there is. How can you be opposed to something when you don't even know about it? Sounds like you're brainwashed.

OH AND YEA RUSSIA WAS WAY BETTER OFF UNDER STALINS RULE.
Not Stalin's: Khruschevs'

AND YEA CUBAS DOING GREAT,......THATS WHY THOUSANDS SWIM TO U.S. YOU DONT HAVE A CLUE WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT
What several hundred (not thousands) of Cubans do is not an accurate portrait of the Island. What is is the statistics on standards of living in Cuba

"(communism deprives no man of his individuality.)
How is this "idiotic? You can't just criticise it wothout any sort of argument.

(where we are all fucked over individualy.)
That's true. We Are. And again you call it idiotic without anything to back it up

(Individuality leads to rascism and causes social classes.) This is not right
You misread this, Tkinter.

IDIOTIC!!
Expand on this, please. Why?

marxis theory is it should take over the world,
Where in Marx does he say that? Give me a quotation

and communism will not work that way.
Why not? Expand

[Tkinter1]

haha im not writing a book here. so im nto expanding. the jist is, why do you insist on making capatailism seem so much worse then communism. Even though with the socialistic reforms you still *****. When does it stop? with a communist state? Thats just not going to happen. There are too many bad role models for communism. Russia has always had a poor economy though so i will give you that not much has been able to help them. Even thought communism wasnt fully present in russia, the majority does not want to give up there life in this nation to choose communism. Equal oppurtunity is equlity. And read marxis work. I should have clarafied that roughly he stated that communism should be a world wide phenomenon and that the prolietarit should rise up around the world and seize power. and im sorry to say but its common knowledge that there is no president in a communist coutry. its community no select group. I was saying idiotic more out of anger, than in the fact that i saw true idiocy. You beleive in a system of government that i find to have many flaws, and i beleive in a system in which you find many flaws. The only difference is, capatilism looks way better than communism to most people. and no, its not becuase of evil captalist propaganda. Ive heard it, so dont try and blow my mind by stating that

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 2:32 am on June 6, 2002)

[peaccenicked]

Equal opportunity.
Your are saying a rich kid and a poor kid have equal opportunities. Where did you learn that fairy tale?

[Tkinter1]

HA


US is made up of the poor from other countries. You think they are born into wealth? we have only been here for approx 200 years. The rich WAS ONCE THE POOR. Ever hear of rags to riches? It does happen, quite often in the land of oppurtunity my friend;) It is no fairy tale.

[Tkinter1]

OK i wont even push as far as POOR TO RICH. But poor to middle class. They have the oppurtunity here its not handed to them (communism).



----
Communism is a crutch for the weak.

[peaccenicked]

obviously not often or millions would not be below the poverty line. You are believing the American fairy tale.

[Tkinter1]

The american fairy tale?????? you sound so dumb. My who family is an example of rags to middle class. and its not millions in poverty. Show the millions in poverty statistics. Lets be realistic the, the majoirty is middle upper and lower middle class. Not poor (on the streets). the majority of the US is not poor. and some of them like there "ghettos" they are some of the most well organised communities. Im really starting to get the idea that you dont live in the US.. corRect me if im wrong




(Edited by Tkinter1 at 3:26 am on June 6, 2002)


(Edited by Tkinter1 at 3:28 am on June 6, 2002)

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 9:01 pm on June 4, 2002
ok red suit. Commuinsts states should not have presidents, becaus under communism there is no governemnt. OH AND YEA RUSSIA WAS WAY BETTER OFF UNDER STALINS RULE. AND YEA CUBAS DOING GREAT,......THATS WHY THOUSANDS SWIM TO U.S. YOU DONT HAVE A CLUE WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT

"(communism deprives no man of his individuality.) You don't need money and fancy cars to be individual. People still buy the things they want, however they don't buy as many "fancy" things that we have. Even if it did deprive us of individuality, it would deprive us of less individuality than does capitalism( BUT wait, capatailism is onyl an economic system right so what does it have to do with indivuality?), (where we are all fucked over individualy.) (Do you even feel the need for individuality? I don't). (Individuality leads to rascism and causes social classes.) This is not right

IDIOTIC!! anything with "()" shows true idiocy

living standars dont improve in communism they only eqaulaise. and smaller coutries dont count, because marxis theory is it should take over the world, and communism will not work that way. and you make it seem like US is PURE capatailsm. We have socailistic things, such as socail security, welfare, unions. Your lucky you live in the US, despite all the bullshit you throw down on this forum.

COULD SOMEONE TELL IF HES JOKING???


I never said Russians were better under Stalins rule. stalin was evil. They were better under Lenin's and KRuscvev's rule. The cubans who swim to us are rich capitalists who lost their money and want to become rich. I do have a clue what I'm talking about. But do you have a clue as to what YOU are talking about.
The few socialistic things in America are not nearly socialistic enough to be called socialist.

And wtf r u talking about? really, you don't need money to be an individual. At least I don't do you?

You are also a complete dumbass, where did you see anything in Marxist theory about taking over the world.

You are really fucking stupid I don't even know why I waste my time arguing with such a fucking idiot. Maybe if you used some more logical arguments I would be able to comprehend your blind nationalist love towards such an exploitive system as capitalism.

(Edited by man in the red suit at 4:22 am on June 6, 2002)

[peaccenicked]

Child poverty fact sheet
http://cpmcnet.columbia.edu/dept/nccp/ycpf.html

[Nateddi]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 3:21 am on June 6, 2002
The american fairy tale?????? you sound so dumb. My who family is an example of rags to middle class.


You must be really proud of being a rags to riches story. Just because a family member a while ago, with hard work as well as good luck, was able to secure a position for the rest of their family in the middle class, doesn't mean everyone can. For all I know, you could be growing up in shit right now, meanwhile some wanker with a rags-to-riches family who had slightly better luck would be posting on some message board where most of the members try to help out people who you more likely than not would have currently been a part off.

Oh, how did your family get into the rags in the first place? You must have a really lazy family not to succeed in blissful america.

As for the statistics. I believe appx 30-35 million americans live in poverty. Those are the latest figures I have heard. Can anyone directly link me to an IMF/WB statistic page regarding this?

[Nateddi]

Quote: from peaccenicked on 4:25 am on June 6, 2002
Child poverty fact sheet
http://cpmcnet.columbia.edu/dept/nccp/ycpf.html


Thanks peacenick, you hit reply a bit before I did.

[El Che]

"Communism is a crutch for the weak."

I resent such blatant stupidity and insensitivity to the crimes of capital.

[lennon]

Tkinter or whatever your name is : spell check:
Capitalism NOT Capatilism
Proletariat NOT Proletriat
Their when belonging to isnt "there".
You sure are a great advert for the US education system!
One rule I have in life is not to use words I cant spell, because I probably dont understand them.
Do YOU know what youre talking about?
You appear so proud to be american, why? .

[Tkinter1]

Tkinter is a is a GUI (graphical user interface) programming interface based on the programming language python. And i know my spelling isn't perfect but neither is yours. I guess im so used to not worrying about spellin (on this forum) that i just dont care enough to read it over.


(Edited by Tkinter1 at 8:47 pm on June 6, 2002)

[Tkinter1]

http://cpmcnet.columbia.edu/dept/nccp/ecp302.html


Notice the first bullets.

inadequate nutrition (old soviet union)
environmental toxins
diminished interaction due to maternal depression
trauma and abuse
lower quality child care
parental substance abuse


What it is communism's answer to this?


Also notice the chart a little lower. Poverty is decreasing! Poverty has always been present. Communism seems to be the wasy way out of it. They say the economic downturn could change these statistics but for now, its to early to tell.


"Poverty rates for young children vary dramatically by ethnicity and family structure."

[Nateddi]

First off, the USSR was a second world country, definately not malnutricioned (I know I wasnt).

Here is another source on the rich-poor gap.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/...000/1763410.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/newsid_1763000/1763410.stm)

[Tkinter1]

Define poor Nateddi.

Is it literally 'on the streets'

Or just not as "well off" as the "rich"

[Nateddi]

My opinion:

Poor = cannot afford basic living commodities:
*modest employment ($10/h +)
*health coverage
*energy
*food (some shortages)
*shelter
*food (starvation)

Any of these are poverty to an extent. Start with the top of the list and work your way down. I don't know what BBC source's definition is, I am sure its much looser than mine though.

[Tkinter1]

*food (some shortages) ----------- Soup kitchens, cheap restaurants
*shelter - homless shelters, projects
*food (starvation) --- starvation!? that is VERY uncommon in the US (welfare, Soup kitchens etc)
modest employment ($10/h +)

All of these are provided to the poor though. Some have to much pride to accept the "handouts" though.
There are people trying to help the less fortunate. Some are government sponsered. Hell there are even overseas programs in the US. I can't turn on the TV once without seeing one. Starvation? Ive seen bums herethat have more meat on them then people i know!!

[Nateddi]

Its quite obvious that the last three (the extremes) are not problems in the US.

The people which you mention having "pride" accepting the handouts are not poor nor lazy. They are very affluent who work for cash and report low income. I know a family which does this personally (welfare, for the family, and college tuitions and three trips to russia per year is still affodable). I am trying to blackmail them for cheating the system. Its quite ignorant to assume that the poor are lazy who live off of these "handouts" instead of "trying" (I assume thats what you were trying to say). You moreover prove my point; capitalism to keep going needs to be bailed out, business is war and the victims are the people.

Indeed the first two points are not mensioned. The right wing (as well as Democrats) position on free trade, a low (poverty rate) minimum wage, and no real push for universal healthcare (as is provided in all other 'western' nations, even 'communist' nations). Both parties are quite happy not caring about improving the quality of life of our people. Politicians are indeed avoiding this "digital divide" trouble, furthermore funding to public schools is low, hell, we want handouts so instead of fixing the problem, we will let people abandon it. Meanwhile, we are bailing out corporations with corporate welfare and fighting a "war" with no end, soon to overthrow saddam and claim another Bush / Oil victory. Great way to spend money.

As for the other countries and foreign aid. Well, the certain overseas programs which you "always see" are not really working. Hell yeah, sponsor a child. Can we agree that those private programs don't make anywhere near a significant difference? How much does it cost them to put those commercials on every time you watch TV? I don't feel like researching the exact statistics, however starvation in the world is infact rampant. It is very possible to get rid of these global, but in order to do that, a global system must be adopted for human need rather than private greed.

Do you honestly opine that some day we will see successful free market capitalism in all the present third world countries? Where small business triumphs and people live together happily embracing the free market? Where people have a quality of life atleast as good as an "average" american has presently?

[Tkinter1]

Do you honestly opine that some day we will see successful free market capitalism in all the present third world countries?

Probably not right away. Seeing as how most of the 3rd world countries are in decaying socialism, and often run by drug lords or small factions. But look at afghanistan. That is one of our 'projects'. I predict the will be quite prosperous within the next few years due to our intervention, and the disbandment of the taliban. Would agree that is much room for scamming a communist government? Also would you agree that in some cases communism works as one giant hand out for the poor? There is not enough people in the U.S. that want to get rid of the government, becuase most are happy with the way they live. Communism i beleive was devloped in a time when working conditions and peoples welfare was genuinally threatend. But now that working conditions have improved and our country has implemented the advantages of both economic systems, I dont think there would be a significant reason to complain about it. The majoirty would not follow a revolt against our government.

[man in the red suit]

we never stated that people are unhappy with the current capitalist system. Communism and socialism are for less benefited countries. A country that starts out poor will be more greatly benefited by the socialist system as opposed to capitalism. Capitalism is what benefits the needs of the few over the many. In america, we are already happy because we have a middle class. In other countries, there is no middle class.

I don't protest the American government asides from its abuse towards communiusm, which is dispicable. If you think communism is so flawed, howcome, America thought it to be a threat? Communism is for the poor not us Amerikans who have been corrupted by greed.


Don't tell me about how corrupted communism is because if you tell me this, I will laugh in your face.

I see no more less corruption in your precious capitalism.

Why are you even on this site? nobody wants you here anyway.

[Nateddi]

This is complete ideological babble.

I won't know you in a few years, but I will bet for the fun of it that Afghanistan will not improve; well perhaps they will up to a modest middle eastern standard (which isn't high at all). We will see how much better their people are. Tell me, what will cause such great improvements?

As for socialism: Tell me, which country did not improve as a result of a socialist revolution? Socialism has always improved a country, unlike capitalism which simply used it for its resources and labor force. And no, most countries are not ran under "decaying socialism". Those which are, I shall ask you, would they be better off under capitalism? If you had to live for a decade in a latin american country, would you go to an ameircan puppet plutocracy, or someplace such as Cuba? Statistically Russia has worsened after the overthrow of decaying socialism, extreme rise in poverty and crime sold me.

As for communism, what brought it into discussion? I never mensioned communism. Its pretty obvious that it is unpopular in America, you don't need to tell me that.

[Tkinter1]

Lets try and relax first of all

Ive had my share of heated converstions frankly im tired of them.

anyway.

What i meen is countries such as albania are stagnant under socialism. They are not moving ahead as signifacantly as they might under capatilism. its up to the people though. And im sorry if you interpreted my words into " communism is flawed and corrupt" thats not what i intended. what i was trying to say, is that people could take advantage of communism's ' to those what they need' policy ( i think thats what its called, not a literal policy). People could fake injurys to gain money without working ( which they do in the US too!!). Again i intended to state that the drug lord run nations such as samalia and others could not be instantaniosly converted to capaitalism, as is what you asked.

[Tkinter1]

You answered you own question suit. I am here becuase no one wants me to be....

[man in the red suit]

do you actually consider capitalism as "moving ahead"
I don't. for a few, maybe. But in the long run, many get fucked over and lose their jobs under capitalism.

[Tkinter1]

You look at the small picture suit. Thats the idea of capatilism. Its competative. Some win some lose. You like sports?

[Nateddi]

I love sports, I would love to be a sports team; I would not want to be the grass and equipment is used for the sports teams to play.

[man in the red suit]

I don't look at the small picture twinky, I just don't think it is a good idea for some to win by fucking over others

[Tkinter1]

Then play mind games :)

[man in the red suit]

lol why sould you want to be here when others hate you.

[Tkinter1]

I should ask you the same question suit...

[man in the red suit]

I am not hated. I guess you are not either. But I am a socialist, you are not. This IS a site for socialists in case ya didn't know.

(Edited by man in the red suit at 6:47 am on June 9, 2002)

[Tkinter1]

i guess im here to challenge your standings. Its not like im asking you to convert ;)

[man in the red suit]

well i guess there's you, capitalist imperial, and some guests who are on you side. So challenge away good sir.

[Nateddi]

tk, check your PM box (upper right corner)

[man in the red suit]

don't do it man!!!! it's a bomb! aghaghaghaghag!!

nah, I'm joking.

[Tkinter1]

suit. What are your stand points on anything in the world today. Any thing at all?

[man in the red suit]

clarify that question for me. View points regarding What? by the world, what do you mean?

[Tkinter1]

nvm

[man in the red suit]

very well then. My stand points on the world today....
hmm......lets see........hm...... I guess it doesnt matter to you because I'm a satan worshipping, baby eating, communist.

[anti machine]

there has been no true communist country in exestince because they have not followed the marxist/engles doctrine of a true communist form of government. I have alot of personal problems with communist theory. I think there must be a middle ground between captitalism and communism which would be accepted more easily by the people. what really bothers me about communism is the lack of freedom the people have. I heard a quote one time that went something like this: "in capitalism you sacrifice equality for freedom, in communism you sacrifice freedom for equality." Surely there is a system that is as perfect on paper as it is in practice, but communism is the closest we got.

[Angie]

Quote from Tkinter1:

They are not moving ahead as signifacantly as they might under capatilism.Is that the whole reason for life, though? "Moving ahead"?

There are so many countries on this planet which contain cultures that are perfectly content remaining the way they have been for thousands of years, a good example being some African tribal systems. Must we force those people to "move ahead", just so that we can decide if they have the right to exist amongst the rest of us? I don't think so.

If we took the time to find out how those societies WANT to exist, then helped them to acheive those goals, then they're benefitting without requiring much change.

All the time I hear stories of the Aborigines in my nation who claim they don't want to live in the fast-paced Western existence the whites have created for themselves. They want to keep their own traditions, without living in poverty - nor should they be expected to live in poverty. They want to live their own lives according to a system which they honour as sacred and right for them. Must we demand that that all changes, because of our views on progress being the be-all-and-end-all?

They're not hurting anyone by being "un-progressive" on the world stage. Why must they change, unless they themselves personally want to?

Capitalistic tip for you: Your website's English is horrendous. If you want anyone to take your company seriously, you'll make sure your spelling and punctuation are both absolutely perfect. Go over it with a fine-toothed comb.

[Tkinter1]

"There are so many countries on this planet which contain cultures that are perfectly content remaining the way they have been for thousands of years, a good example being some African tribal systems"

NO ONES STOPING THEM


AND CAPTATILIST TIP ABOUT MY SITE??, THATS A CHEAP SHOT! Be specific about HORRENDUS english *****. Either you cant spell or i missed something becuase i haven't found any mistakes.......

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 5:40 pm on June 13, 2002)

[Tkinter1]

and whats even more aggrevating is the fact that you have numerous mistakes in your writings as well. and what does that have to do w/ capatilsm. You have succesfully confused me angie

[Angie]

My my my, we are an offensive little Child, aren't we? In response, I will pick over your website, AND both of the posts you've made to me here, just to make my own point about how bad your communication abilities truly are. Thanks for your time, but the game is over as far as you're concerned.

Now, onto the fun stuff:

On your first post to me in this thread:

Original:

"NO ONES STOPING THEM
AND CAPTATILIST TIP ABOUT MY SITE??, THATS A CHEAP SHOT! Be specific about HORRENDUS english *****. Either you cant spell or i missed something becuase i haven't found any mistakes......"

Completely re-written to correct mistakes:

NO ONE'S STOPPING THEM
AND (THE) CAPITALIST TIP ABOUT MY SITE? THAT'S A CHEAP SHOT! Be specific about HORRENDOUS English, *****. Either you can't spell or I missed something, because I haven't found any mistakes...."

See the difference yet?

On your second post to me in this thread:

Original:

"and whats even more aggrevating is the fact that you have numerous mistakes in your writings as well. and what does that have to do w/ capatilsm. You have succesfully confused me angie"

Completely re-written to correct mistakes:

"And what's even more aggrevating is the fact that you have numerous mistakes in your writing, as well. And what does that have to do with Capitalism? You have successfully confused me, Angie."

On your website:

'stratagies' = strategies
'securifying' = word doesn't exist
(the two nearest words are: Securitising, which relates to buying something from a lender, and is therefore completely unrelated; or, Securing, which could also mean a purchase, or making something secure, the latter of which would be the most applicable option)
'begginer' = beginner
'immediatly' = immediately

In conclusion:

I reiterate: Your spelling AND punctuation are horrendous.

Be assured, you have no respect from me, both as a fellow poster upon this forum AND as someone who looks at your website and sees a very clear lack of professionalism - you appear to me to be exceedingly immature, rude, disrespectful, and I cannot see how you could POSSIBLY make a decent business person from having such traits. Frankly, I'm not surprised that you're confused, either. I appears to me to be an emotion that you should be quite familiar with, right across the board.

Please, feel free to look at my posts here, and point out the spelling mistakes. I'll be sure to correct them immediately. Thanks!

Oh, and if you knew anything - ANYTHING - about politics and international cultural transitions, you would see that there is quite a strong correlation between my posts and Capitalism. Apparently you don't have that - either the ability to see the difference, OR the knowledge you require in which to make a statement that has any basis of truth.

Have a nice day. :)

[Tkinter1]

WOW. You showed me! Your the coolest thing on this site!

[Tkinter1]

and im 14, i dont give much thought into that site, its mostly boredom. But when real business (which it does) does role around, believe me i take the time to correct spelling mistakes. I dont even advertise that site lol.
"Please, feel free to look at my posts here, and point out the spelling mistakes. I'll be sure to correct them immediately. Thanks!"

Def not that corney.


"you appear to me to be exceedingly immature, rude, disrespectful."

I gather that you have have arrived at that conclusion becuase you are a tad bit perturbed by the fact that i refered to you as a '*****', which i ment in the nicest most respectful way. Also, i sense that you are often very critical about everyone around you, this obsession to have everything perfect has left you in a state of turmoil and confusion. You express your 'narcissistic' attitude about spelling on this site, and you become agitated when others dont not adhere to your high standards. Lossen up a little bit and realise that not everyone is as perfect as you ;)

have a great day sunshine, and im sorry if that wasn't perfect, but you can always correct me later...

how old are you anyway angie?



(Edited by Tkinter1 at 8:06 am on June 14, 2002)

[Angie]

"and im 14" -- Immaturity.
"i refered to you as a '*****'." -- Rudeness.
"how old are you anyway angie?" -- Disrespectful. (and in answer, anyway? Double your own age and you're getting warmer. Respect your elders, or face their wrath.)

You don't DESERVE respect. You haven't EARNT it.

You thus spend your most recent posts trying to prop yourself up, as is to be completely expected when one's ego is bruised.

"a tad bit perturbed" ?

The only thing I'm perturbed about is the level of immaturity and patheticness that some of our forummers exhibit. This is a forum about Economics and Politics - neither of which are for Children, they are for Adults and those Young Adults who are mature enough to contribute. If you cannot play in an Adult world according to the rules set by the forum and it's community itself, a fact which you have proven consistently throughout this entire thread, then you have no place being here. Those people who cannot contribute to the forum in the manner in which it was created are usually confined to the Socialism v Capitalism forum, choosing instead to prescribe to the opposing Capitalist doctrine, such as you have admitted to. I think we can expect to see yourself soon to follow in their footsteps.

"Also, i sense that you are often very critical about everyone around you, this obsession to have everything perfect has left you in a state of turmoil and confusion." ?

Feel free to explain to me where I appear in a state of turmoil and confusion, as it appears to have passed me by, and the enlightenment is always welcome. Frankly, I'm doubtful you even know what either word means, since you have clearly misused a bare minimum of one of them, if not both.

Keeping to the topic, I'm only critical of those people who are hell-bent on disturbing the equilibrium that has been created here. Creating such threads as "Communism and all you commy lovers: Come on.... are you serious???" upon a Socialist/Communist discussion forum (and especially when it appears NOT within the designated Capitalist forum) is one way to disturb the equilibrium successfully, therefore it's pretty fair to claim that you are one of the people who would automatically receive my scorn. Anything less is not adhering to my Duty of Care towards the Socialist / Communist Global Community, and therefore letting down my fellow Comrades.

"You express your 'narcissistic' attitude about spelling on this site, and you become agitated when others dont not adhere to your high standards." ?

Meanwhile, you sound like an astrology reading. Let me guess: Scorpio? It's certainly not Pisces.

Keeping to the topic at hand, however, I only pick on people's spelling when it provides conflict between who they are, and what they're trying to outwardly project. You project that you feel you know what you're talking about, but you cannot string a line of words together correctly, and from every angle people are discrediting your comments due to their very inaccuracy. So the little tip is as follows: When you're trying to at least appear intelligent, it's worth LOOKING intelligent. Prancing around with the spelling of a 6 year old is not going to help your cause.

The website-related comments are self-explanatory. You will never succeed in the business world unless you make every effort to be perfect in your field. A business is a business - if you consider it a toy, as clearly you do regarding your website, then you will fail, and the whole experience will not even register as a learning experience, let alone anything else. As you said yourself, it's about mindgames. You have, in your lack of knowledge, successfully failed this particular mindgame and lost a lot of respect and honour in the process. There is no second round in the business world - once you're out, you're out.

... To claim otherwise would make you delusional.
... To "fight back" makes you infantile not to mention needy of instant respect and recognition - neither of which are readily available here given your slander towards our own kind. They must be earnt.
... To accept defeat, and thus learn from your mistakes, makes you stronger.
... To receive knowledge from those who have already walked before you requires silence, patience, and a good listening ability.
... To disregard the above invitation, especially if it is coupled with an open display of hostility and disrespect, actively invites scorn and isolation from those who would be better off as peers.

Which is your path?

(Edited by Angie at 10:43 pm on June 14, 2002)

[Tkinter1]

Wow. someone has alot of time on their hands. You should learn how to be concise.

Im done talking with you so there is no use of writing me another novel angie...

[Xvall]

Shouldn't you be in the Soc. Vs. Capitalism fourm? Why the hell are you talking here? Shoo, Shoo.. Both of you.. Take it somewhere else..

[Angie]

It's so much fun watching a person scrambling for victory when clearly they've just been hit with a sledgehammer and have been knocked sideways. A perfectly decent, logical response was given to such a fool, and as is to be perfectly expected, they cannot respond to it with any scraping of intelligence. Thus, they have become the puppy with the tail between it's legs and must scamper off, leaving one last insult in it's wake.

Here's something concise for you: You Lose. Game over.

:)

Drake, he should only BE in the Soc-v-Cap forum; Why he's here is beyond me.