A Few Questions?

[Owen-]

Ok, Im quite new to Communism/Socialism and, although I entirely aggree with it i have a few questions, that have stumped me:

1. The "its human nature to be selfish therefore Communism would always fail" arguement, ie. people will alway be looking for a profit. How can this arguement be countered?

2. Can Communism/Socialism actually occur? It seems an almost impossible feat.

3. Some people call point 2. reactionary - what is that?

4. Has there ever been TRUE Communism - not like the USSR or the like, but I have heard people talking about an ancient Greek group of Communists. Furthermore it is also argued that Jesus himself (if he is real or not) was a Communist/Socialist?

Thanks for all your help

[Fawkes]

1. The "its human nature to be selfish therefore Communism would always fail" arguement, ie. people will alway be looking for a profit. How can this arguement be countered?
What is human nature and what proof is there that it exists.



2. Can Communism/Socialism actually occur? It seems an almost impossible feat.
If we thought it impossible, we wouldn't believe in it.



3. Some people call point 2. reactionary - what is that?
Generally, reactionary is something that is right wing.



4. Has there ever been TRUE Communism - not like the USSR or the like, but I have heard people talking about an ancient Greek group of Communists.
There has never been communism on a mass scale, but it has been done a number of times in smaller scenarios.



Furthermore it is also argued that Jesus himself (if he is real or not) was a Communist/Socialist?
A communist who claims to be a messiah and who has his followers bathe his feet in oils....

[Organic Revolution]

QUOTE
1. The "its human nature to be selfish therefore Communism would always fail" arguement, ie. people will alway be looking for a profit. How can this arguement be countered?

What is human nature and what proof is there that it exists.

People say that because they are afraid not to be selfish. It cant be human nature to be selfish because it isnt inherently in our brain functions.




2. Can Communism/Socialism actually occur? It seems an almost impossible feat.

If we thought it impossible, we wouldn't believe in it.

Socialism has occured, in the USSR. Communism has never occured. Anarchism has occured at several times in history.


QUOTE

3. Some people call point 2. reactionary - what is that?

Generally, reactionary is something that is right wing.

I would call socialism reactionary because it takes an authoritarian stance, and is divisive to real freedom (anarchism)

[Owen-]

What is human nature and what proof is there that it exists.

People have been selfish all throughout history - even looking back all the way to the stone age man has been greedy - even before Capitalism, Socialism, Communism etc. were really thought of.

As it you have stated - there has never been true Communism, because somebody has always been greedy and wanted more. Thus ruining the entire concept.

This is what I mean by "it seems an almost impossible feat." Every time a Communist-like society has been attempted - it has always failed

For the Jesus thing Acts 4 vs something like 30 says that;

"The community of believers was of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common.
33
With great power the apostles bore witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great favor was accorded them all.
34
There was no needy person among them, for those who owned property or houses would sell them, bring the proceeds of the sale,
35
and put them at the feet of the apostles, and they were distributed to each according to need.
36
Thus Joseph, also named by the apostles Barnabas (which is translated "son of encouragement"), a Levite, a Cypriot by birth,
37
sold a piece of property that he owned, then brought the money and put it at the feet of the apostles.

I have a file on how Chirstians should be communists

If it works its in the attachment

Cheers

[redcannon]

Originally posted by Owen-@February 26, 2007 11:33 am
Ok, Im quite new to Communism/Socialism and, although I entirely aggree with it i have a few questions, that have stumped me:

1. The "its human nature to be selfish therefore Communism would always fail" arguement, ie. people will alway be looking for a profit. How can this arguement be countered?

2. Can Communism/Socialism actually occur? It seems an almost impossible feat.

3. Some people call point 2. reactionary - what is that?

4. Has there ever been TRUE Communism - not like the USSR or the like, but I have heard people talking about an ancient Greek group of Communists. Furthermore it is also argued that Jesus himself (if he is real or not) was a Communist/Socialist?

Thanks for all your help
1. it may be human nature to be selfish, but it's also human nature to fuck everyone we see right there in the street. tell that to the next cappie you see.

2. we know socialism can occur, and communism is merely the ends to those means. I think communism can occur, and if it can't, then that's the lives of millions of peoples wasted who were working towards it.

3. reactionary isn't neccasarily right wing, it just means someone who wants to change back to the old ways. in soviet russia, the reactionaries wanted the Czarist system to be put back in place.

4. there has never been TRUE communism, because communism implys a CLASSLESS and STATELESS society.

also, there is no doubt that jesus the human existed. Jesus the messiah is where the debate lies.

[redcannon]

Originally posted by Owen-@February 26, 2007 02:18 pm

I have a file on how Chirstians should be communists

If it works its in the attachment

Cheers
nice, i like your thesis statement

[Aurora]

1. The "its human nature to be selfish therefore Communism would always fail" arguement, ie. people will alway be looking for a profit. How can this arguement be countered?
Human nature changes with every epoch.Humans first lives in an historical epoch known as primitive communism.

2. Can Communism/Socialism actually occur? It seems an almost impossible feat.
The basis for creating a socialist society has been laid out by marx,developed by lenin and further developed by trotsky.Socialism can be acheived and is realistic.Not much is known about a communist society but socialism lays the basis for communism and when socialism reaches its potention it will develop into communism.

3. Some people call point 2. reactionary - what is that?
Reactionary is counter-progressive,the problem is what people think is progresive and what is not ;)

4. Has there ever been TRUE Communism - not like the USSR or the like, but I have heard people talking about an ancient Greek group of Communists. Furthermore it is also argued that Jesus himself (if he is real or not) was a Communist/Socialist?
humans naturaly live in communism,the class society we live in today is artificial and will develop into a higher form of communism.Although 'modern communism' has never been implemented.
Jesus might have been some sort of utopian socialist but of course utopian socialism is based on bullshit and will acheive nothing.There is a huge distinction between a marxist socialist and a christian pseudo utopian socialist ;)

Socialism has occured, in the USSR.
This in incorrect,but thats a total other story.

[Owen-]

Human nature changes with every epoch.Humans first lives in an historical epoch known as primitive communism.

I think I have got the meaning of reactionary now - thanks guys

And might also see how Socialism/Communism could be realistically possible - if i could only get my haed around the "human nature" thing

Sorry im probably being retarded but...

Human nature has always been selfish. That has never changed. Even if we change "epoch" we may not change our nature?

Thx for the help

[Owen-]

soz comp is fuckin up

[which doctor]

Originally posted by Owen-@February 26, 2007 02:33 pm
1. The "its human nature to be selfish therefore Communism would always fail" arguement, ie. people will alway be looking for a profit. How can this arguement be countered?
Instead of denying human nature like some people do, I use the argument of selfishness against those who say communism cannot work because of it.

Are humans naturally selfish? Yes, in a way, humans do what is in their best interest. This is a trait common to pretty much all organisms. In fact, it's how we have survived through the many thousands of years, evolution, Darwinism, etc.

Since when does self-interest (selfishness?) = profit?

For many thousands of years people successfully lived collectively, even before notions of property and profit existed. People were still selfish, but a collective still successfully functioned and provided for all the members of this collective.

In a communist society people would have the luxury of being "selfish." What's generally good for the collective, is generally good for the individual as well.

Intelligence is also another factor for refuting this so called selfishness argument. If the capitalists were really smart, the would be able to forsee their downfall. Even capitalists would see a certain degree of a qualitative life change after a revolution. It wouldn't be based on material gain, but perhaps emotional health.

[cenv]

1. The "its human nature to be selfish therefore Communism would always fail" arguement, ie. people will alway be looking for a profit. How can this arguement be countered?
If humans were really the way capitalists paint them -- utterly selfish creatures hell-bent on destroying everybody and everything for the sake of personal gain -- capitalism wouldn't work either. No system would. All systems require a degree of cooperation and a feeling of social obligation, and capitalism is no exception. If people really have the characteristics assigned to them by capitalists, why do people obey the law so thoroughly under capitalism? Why don't they just rob everyone else? Why do they pay the bill before they leave the restaurant? Why do they pay when they buy a Hershey's bar at Walgreens? Because they feel that they, as members of society, are obligated to adhere to the existing order.

Anyway, your argument is a little vague to begin with. Even if humans are "selfish" to some degree, how would that characteristic conflict with or render ineffective a classless, stateless society (ie. a communist society)?

[Owen-]

Anyway, your argument is a little vague to begin with. Even if humans are "selfish" to some degree, how would that characteristic conflict with or render ineffective a classless, stateless society (ie. a communist society)?

ok...

I aggree that it is vague but you guys have cleared most of those things up for me anyway - thanks

However, before somebody said that Socialism is reactionary, why is that, if we are all working towards the same aim.

Surely socialism is "a lesser form of Communism" but is still working towards it - therefore not reactionary.

[Aurora]

Surely socialism is "a lesser form of Communism" but is still working towards it - therefore not reactionary.
Those who consider socialism reactionary think so because they dont believe that socialism will develop into communism once its reached its highest stage.Generaly these are Anarchists.
Anarchists think that the state cannot be used for the benefit of the working class and therefore must be abolished.

[Janus]

However, before somebody said that Socialism is reactionary, why is that, if we are all working towards the same aim.

Surely socialism is "a lesser form of Communism" but is still working towards it - therefore not reactionary.
It depends what you mean by socialism as it's a pretty vague term. Some socialists, mainly democratic socialists, simply want to set up a socialist state while others see communism as their final goal.

[Owen-]

Oh! One I found out against the human nature argument - If it is always in our human nature to be selfish - why do we have a legal system that punishes stealing? Its human nature to want to steal and be selfish, why would the legal systemof capitalism punish us for it?

Do we have a choice to be selfish or not?

If so - Voila - we can choose to live in Communism?

[RebelDog]

Its human nature to want to steal and be selfish, why would the legal systemof capitalism punish us for it?

The legal system does not punish everyone for stealing. The capitalist class steals from the working class (the productive class) all the time through surplus value. Far from being illegal it is encouraged and it is actually a legal obligation on the part of company to maximise profit and thus steal with greater efficiency. It is recently been 'exposed' that the 54 billionaires who live in the UK paid a paltry £15million in income tax on a combined wealth of £126billion. That is simply legalised stealing and another attack on the working class who would definitely be punished by the courts if they ever somehow managed to pay such a tiny percentage of tax on their already robbed wages!
The legal system at a glance looks like it punishes thieves, whilst these grand robberies take place unpunished.


Do we have a choice to be selfish or not?

Not really, no. If you and I are faced with starving and I know where I can aquire some little food, I will likely use that food for my own selfish purposes. Its part of my instinct to carry out such behaviour. Its one of the reasons my genes survive today. People are selfish when the material conditions requires that they are, its part of being human. The material conditions in capitalism requires that people are selfish, generally, to survive and this is easily viewed in all sections of society.

Now. What if the material conditions changed under another political system and humanity was able to develop the productive forces to such a degree that scarcity and markets were eliminated. Why then would the human trait of selfishness need to manifest itself? What if more can be gained by each individual, and as a society as a whole, through co-operation, sharing and altruism. To go back to my first example, what if there was not a little food but plenty? I would not require to be selfish and would share. The need to be selfish and compete for resources does not materially have to exist, but it is a direct outcome of capitalism and will always be a direct outcome of capitalism no matter what level of productive output it is able to achieve. That means that capitalism becomes a great hindrance to human progress and forces inevitably will rise up and attempt to destroy it.

We who live in the capitalist epoch can be forgiven for thinking that humans are always selfish and cannot change. It aids the ruling class position in society if this is widespread belief. If you look closer you find the notion that people are always selfish to be absurd. Communism seeks to change nothing about humans. Instead it seeks to exploit (in a good way) the positive side of humanity and render other traits redundant.

[The Grey Blur]

Your last point is very true. Anarion hit the nail on the head for most of your questions but I'll give my own small contribution:


1. The "its human nature to be selfish therefore Communism would always fail" arguement, ie. people will alway be looking for a profit. How can this arguement be countered?
People are "selfish" under Capitalism due to the conditions we are forced to live in. Dog-eat-dog, must get ahead that stuff. Despite this, there are many everyday examples of human beings being un-selfish as well; giving to charity, helping neighbours, etc.


2. Can Communism/Socialism actually occur? It seems an almost impossible feat.
There have been many examples of Socialism existing throughout Capitalist history - The Paris Commune (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune), The USSR until 1927, The Hungarian Soviet Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Soviet_Republic), During the Spanish Civil War at times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War), Cuba to a certain extent, Venezuela is heading in the direction of Socialism and even here in Ireland we had the Limerick Soviet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick_Soviet).

So certainly not impossible. It's about strengthening and spreading the revolution though, which is what failed to occur in a lot of these examples.


3. Some people call point 2. reactionary - what is that?
I'm not sure what you mean by this...but a "reactionary" is anyone who wishes to regress humanity rather than bring progress - the churches would be an example of this. Reactionaries are enemies of the working-class.


4. Has there ever been TRUE Communism
Well no, there hasn't ever been "TRUE Communism" but it's prior existence wouldn't affect our struggle for it today anyways so it's something of a moot point. The examples I cited earlier though were attempts at creating the Communist society.