Americas Founding Father

[freakazoid]

So what are your thought on them? Also do we know what people like Marx thought of them? It seems to me that they really valued freedom and the common person. Here are some quotes from Thomas Jefferson;

This is taken out of his, "Notes on the State of Virginia" Which I got out of a book called, "The Thomas Jefferson Reader"


This practice results from the circumstances of their, the Indians, having never submitted themselves to any laws, any coercive power, any shadow of government. Their only controls are their manners, and that of moral sense of right and wrong, which, like the sense of taste and feeling in every man, makes a part of his nature. An offense against these is punished by contempt, by exclusion from society, or, where the case is serious, as that of murder, by the individuals whom it concerns. Imperfect as this species of coercion may seem, crimes are very rare among then; insomuch that were it made a question, whether no law, as among the savage Americans, or too much law, as among civilized Europeans, submits man to the greater evil, one who has seen both conditions of existence would pronounce it to be the last; and that the sheep are happier themselves, than under the care of the wolves. It will be said, that great societies cannot exist without government. The savages, therefore, break them into smaller ones.

There is another good one but I currently can not find it.

So, what are your thoughts?

edit - It seems like they really thought that the government should be by the people.

[MrDoom]

Wasn't Jefferson a slave owner? Weren't nearly all of them slavers? Yeah, they really valued the commoner, so long as he was white, christian, and a property-owner. :rolleyes:

The Founding Fathers cared about money and power, not democracy. Any liberal rhetoric is just window dressing.

[Fawkes]

Jefferson would most likely be described nowadays as a libertarian with primitivist/anti-industrial leanings. No, none of the founding fathers are friends of the left. They thought that the common man was stupid which is why they set up the electoral college in the first place.

[KC]

"To our reproach it must be said, that though for a century and a half we have had under our eyes the races of black and of red men, they have never yet been viewed by us as subjects of natural history. I advance it therefore as a suspicion only, that the blacks, whether originally a distinct race, or made distinct by time and circumstances, are inferior to the whites in the endowments both of body and mind. It is not against experience to suppose, that different species of the same genus, or varieties of the same species, may possess different qualifications. Will not a lover of natural history then, one who views the gradations in all the races of animals with the eye of philosophy, excuse an effort to keep those in the department of man as distinct as nature has formed them? This unfortunate difference of colour, and perhaps of faculty, is a powerful obstacle to the emancipation of these people. Many of their advocates, while they wish to vindicate the liberty of human nature, are anxious also to preserve its dignity and beauty. Some of these, embarrassed by the question `What further is to be done with them?' join themselves in opposition with those who are actuated by sordid avarice only. Among the Romans emancipation required but one effort. The slave, when made free, might mix with, without staining the blood of his master. But with us a second is necessary, unknown to history. When freed, he is to be removed beyond the reach of mixture."

There's another quote by Jefferson in his Notes on the State of Virginia. It's one of the first places where race is referenced in American society (and perhaps even globally). Jefferson was racist against both blacks and native americans; however, he felt that native americans could be "civilized" by cultural assimilation. Of course, we all know what happened to the Cherokees after they tried this. Racism beat this idea down, and years later Jefferson himself retracted this idea of civilizing the natives. They were then evicted from their land by Jackson.

In short: The founding fathers were all a bunch of racist bourgeois pricks. The fact that you defend that Jefferson quote makes me question whether or not you yourself is racist.

[freakazoid]

Hmm... Interesting, I haven't seen the part about the slaves, I've only flipped through the pages. I believe that I had seen a part where he was sticking up for the slaves saying that it was wrong. I really wish I could find those parts that I was talking about. :(

MrDoom - They were not all Christians.

[Fawkes]

MrDoom - They were not all Christians.
Who wasn't one?

[RedCommieBear]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 06:47 pm

MrDoom - They were not all Christians.
Who wasn't one?
A couple of the Founding Fathers (including Jefferson and possibly Washington) were deists. Deists believed in a God at creation but believe that He had no involvement in earthly affairs after that. Jefferson is famous for his "Jefferson Bible", where he looked at Jesus as just a philosopher, and removed all the parts of the Bible involving miracles

[Fawkes]

That's interesting, could you provide a source for that?

[freakazoid]

That is what I was referring to, but you put it much better than could of. :D

[Fawkes]

What is what you were referring to? Also, in reference to "it seems like they really thought the government should be the people", why would they have made the electoral college if they thought that the average man was smart enough to make his own decisions?

[KC]

freakazoid, Jefferson wasn't against slavery; he owned a bunch!!! Even if he was against slavery, he's still a racist and never would have advocated racial equality.

[Janus]

It seems like they really thought that the government should be by the people.
The people back then, as in who could vote, consisted of the rich, landowning elite. And as far as Jefferson's views go, he may have opposed slavery in theory but not in personal practice.

[Guerrilla22]

Benjamin Franklin was a decent guy, he spoke out against government violence against the Indians. Most of them were elitist assholes, who were more concerned with securing their own personal wealth than anything else, however.

[KC]

Although immigration was a number one worry with Franklin, it is illuminating to see how he couched his arguments to oppose it, for he phrased them in terms of skin color. That racism was very much on the mind of this foremost American spokesman for the capitalist ethic is clearly shown by his concern that America could be swamped by nonwhites (see Wright 1986:82-83). Franklin opposed the Quaker pacifism that he felt put at risk the people of the Pennsylvania frontier. In the face of what he regarded as the unshakeable obstinacy of the Quakers on this matter, plus the selfishness of the merchant class, he wrote that the common people of Pennsylvania would have to set up their own voluntary defense associations. In a pamphlet entitled Plain Truth, published in 1747, he went out of his way to assuage the fears of the pacifists that armed groups would be a threat to the social order. Rather, he noted (quoted by Wright 033 1986:78) that the real threat to the society came not from these troops but from "licentious privateers": "your persons, fortunes, wives, and daughters, shall be subject to the wanton and unbridled rage, rapine, and lust of Negroes, mulattos and others, the vilest and most abandoned of mankind." Thus did Franklin use race explicitly as a bogeyman in his arguments. Continuing his argument, Franklin wrote that the non-English immigrants were not "purely white." He maintained that the Germans, Russians, and Swedes were of a swarthy complexion. Furthermore, only the Saxons and the English constituted the principal body of white people on the face of the earth. This concern with skin color caused him to ask (quoted in Wright 1986:83): "Why increase the sons of Africa by planting them in America, where we have so fair an opportunity, by excluding all blacks and tawnys, of increasing the lovely white and red?"

This concern with the importation of blacks was partly based on the belief in the racial inferiority of blacks. In 1758 an English philanthropic society established a school for blacks in Philadelphia. In 1763 Franklin visited the school and remarked (cited in Zilversmit 1967:26-27) that the experience gave him "a higher opinion of the Natural Capacities of the black Race." Obviously, Franklin had a low opinion of the natural intelligence of blacks.

Source (http://www.vernonjohns.org/vernjohns/sthfrnkl.html)

Yeah. Great guy. :rolleyes:

[ComradeR]

why would they have made the electoral college if they thought that the average man was smart enough to make his own decisions?
I may be wrong on this, but if i remember correctly the original purpose behind the electoral college was to overcome the problems of running elections over the large geographical area.

[KC]

I may be wrong on this, but if i remember correctly the original purpose behind the electoral college was to overcome the problems of running elections over the large geographical area.

In a sense, yes. It provided a way for the president to be accountable to the entire nation and therefore couldn't just pander to the rural or urban populations. However, the privilege of voting in America was still limited to property-owning white males until 1856.

[RedCommieBear]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 11:35 pm
That's interesting, could you provide a source for that?
Sure.
Thomas Jefferson's Deism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible)

Deism in America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism#Deism_in_America)

George Washington's Possible Deism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Presidential_religious_affil iations) (Scroll down to the Washington Part)


I may be wrong on this, but if i remember correctly the original purpose behind the electoral college was to overcome the problems of running elections over the large geographical area.

Correct. In the early United States, you didn't really "vote" for presidents; you just voted for your representitve at the Electoral college (who sometimes would change their mind on who they would vote for).

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by Zampanò@February 27, 2007 06:07 am

Although immigration was a number one worry with Franklin, it is illuminating to see how he couched his arguments to oppose it, for he phrased them in terms of skin color. That racism was very much on the mind of this foremost American spokesman for the capitalist ethic is clearly shown by his concern that America could be swamped by nonwhites (see Wright 1986:82-83). Franklin opposed the Quaker pacifism that he felt put at risk the people of the Pennsylvania frontier. In the face of what he regarded as the unshakeable obstinacy of the Quakers on this matter, plus the selfishness of the merchant class, he wrote that the common people of Pennsylvania would have to set up their own voluntary defense associations. In a pamphlet entitled Plain Truth, published in 1747, he went out of his way to assuage the fears of the pacifists that armed groups would be a threat to the social order. Rather, he noted (quoted by Wright 033 1986:78) that the real threat to the society came not from these troops but from "licentious privateers": "your persons, fortunes, wives, and daughters, shall be subject to the wanton and unbridled rage, rapine, and lust of Negroes, mulattos and others, the vilest and most abandoned of mankind." Thus did Franklin use race explicitly as a bogeyman in his arguments. Continuing his argument, Franklin wrote that the non-English immigrants were not "purely white." He maintained that the Germans, Russians, and Swedes were of a swarthy complexion. Furthermore, only the Saxons and the English constituted the principal body of white people on the face of the earth. This concern with skin color caused him to ask (quoted in Wright 1986:83): "Why increase the sons of Africa by planting them in America, where we have so fair an opportunity, by excluding all blacks and tawnys, of increasing the lovely white and red?"

This concern with the importation of blacks was partly based on the belief in the racial inferiority of blacks. In 1758 an English philanthropic society established a school for blacks in Philadelphia. In 1763 Franklin visited the school and remarked (cited in Zilversmit 1967:26-27) that the experience gave him "a higher opinion of the Natural Capacities of the black Race." Obviously, Franklin had a low opinion of the natural intelligence of blacks.

Source (http://www.vernonjohns.org/vernjohns/sthfrnkl.html)

Yeah. Great guy. :rolleyes:
I didn't say he was great. Anyways, Marx wasn't necessarily above racism either at times.

[KC]

I didn't say he was great. Anyways, Marx wasn't necessarily above racism either at times.

Using racist terminology is completely different than being a racist oneself.

[RedKnight]

If Thomas Paine was a founding father, I feel that he was a positive figure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_paine

[freakazoid]

What is what you were referring to?


A couple of the Founding Fathers (including Jefferson and possibly Washington) were deists. Deists believed in a God at creation but believe that He had no involvement in earthly affairs after that. Jefferson is famous for his "Jefferson Bible", where he looked at Jesus as just a philosopher, and removed all the parts of the Bible involving miracles


If Thomas Paine was a founding father, I feel that he was a positive figure.

I have the book, "Common Sense and other writings" but I have yet to read it, I have a lot of books in the to read pile.