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View Full Version : Need a little help with some arguments



( R )evolution
25th February 2007, 22:58
Hey guys I need a little help debating one of my friends.

1. Anyone can get rich if they work hard enough

I said that look at the Rockefeller's and other rich families and how the person who made the company worked hard but his children and grandchildren did absolute nothing for the money.

He said that we should rather just raise inheritances taxes and then use that toward building a more humane and equitable society. And then he said,

"Currently, the conservatives are winning the war of common sense arguments.
They appeal to the values of every day Joe America. Here is there argument: It
is anti-American for the government , "Big Brother", to rob you of the
opportunity to share the fruit of your life's work with your children and
grandchildren. This argument takes the focus off of the barons of capitalism
and brings it to every day middle America - strategically brilliant. NO ONE is
going to support a revolution that is perceived to have the goal of reliving the
failures of the USSR. I'm sorry to say but that revolution is DEAD. If you
wish to bring your dreams of a utopian society to reality you need to reinvent
the revolution, come up with new arguments, and a new vision: not just replay
what has already been discredited in the world of popular opinion."

2. This argument was about Human nature.

I said

That Human Nature was a product of capitalism and the threat of financial insecurity led people to be greedy. But the finical security under socialism would make greed dissapear. Also, in response to the argument that there will always be one greedy person, I said that we will find that person and shoot him. and I also said that there will always be some sociopaths who have a need to hurt another person but we do not tolerate this, we will deal with that by re education or some form of repression.

he said in response

"A response to your argument on human nature. It looks as if we may have to
respectfully agree to disagree on this point. Just look at the poor Chinese
peasants of Mao's Giant Step Backward who curtailed their productivity in the
face of forced communal living (please don't attribute all of the failure to
wheather or to the sparrows). Were they being greedy sociopaths because they
did not meet the parties quotas as a result of choosing not to toil for the
"greater good"? I liken their behavior to that of all creatures of the animal
kingdom who do not pursue a meal that would require them to go past the point of
diminishing caloric returns. Good or bad, MOST people will not exhert
themselves for something that they believe will not be directly benificial to
them or their offspring."

I need some help. Thanks guys

The Bitter Hippy
25th February 2007, 23:44
the first one, the lie about meritocracyis attributable to capitalist cultural and media domination. Of course the reactionaries are winning the war of public opinion, because they are the only side that anyone really hears. It will take time and development of working-class-conciousness for the workers to understand the true nature of capitalism and the only way to remove it.

The same goes for the rabid anti-USSR-ism, but that will die out with the next few generations. most people currently alive remember the USSR existing, and were exposed to the world's greatest PR campaign against it for most of their lives in the developed capitalist nations. Give it a few generations and that will die out, and people will have more of an intelligent understanding of the concepts of socialism and communism.

The human nature argument: his argument is flawed in that he is taking the forced collectivisation of china as an example of socialism in practise. It was only natural for chinese peasants to produce less (although the climate wasn't particularly nice), as they had no tangible benefit from collectivisation.

The whole thing goes that people are indeed going to do what is best for them. They are going to go along with and work for a system that benefits them. The socialist (and even more so communist) modes of production do exactly this, far more so than capitalism. If the chinese peasantry back then had fully understood that collectivization was in their class interests (and i dispute that the didn't entirely...your friend exaggerates the problems), they would have collectivised themselves.

The whole point in socialism is that it is what is in the class interest of the workers, it will benefit us. We just need to understand this as a class.

( R )evolution
26th February 2007, 00:46
Thank you. I tried to explain these concepts to him earlier but he is a person who loves the Swedish example of capitalism. Pretty much giving the workers bone's so they can be happy and not revolt. I told him this wont work on a world wide scale but he still holds tied to that.

The Bitter Hippy
26th February 2007, 01:10
well in that case, have you tried to argue that whever the state gives will never be enough?

because, as he is so convinced, people are innately greedy, they will never say "enough is enough. I'm happy with what i have, this system, while it exploits me, is good enough." People will always want what benefits them more.

true, social-democracy may be the most best form of capitalism for the workers, in that it is the least obvious and agressive type, but it's still not the ideal. Much like the "kind" slavemasters: it may be the nicest form of it, but it's still abhorrent.

Janus
27th February 2007, 02:54
Both those arguements are tackled here:
http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=25500

And as far as the China arguement goes, the collectives weren't decreasing productivity. Rather the famine resulted due to poor planning, bureaucratic deception/mismanagement, as well as weather patterns.